'We Are Witnessing a New Brain Drain' as Scientists Flee America for France

I've been saying it since 2016: the EU should start granting political asylum to people from the US.

edit: I did say political

Reverse the brain drain of the 1930s.
- Sure, 1930s...
- and 1940s
I moved from the U.S. to Germany in 2020.

My running joke since was wondering whether I’d be eligible for citizenship or asylum first….

Almost over the finish line for being eligible for citizenship, but I feel like asylum isn’t that far off.
- You don't need asylum if you are a legal resident. Asylum is the most insecure form of permit, especially in Germany, where the society is currently getting more and more hostile to migration, including labeling countries like Afghanistan as "safe countries of origin" and organizing deportations with the Taliban.
There are already a handful of good digital nomad (and other) visa options that are really tempting.

I haven't done a TON of research here, just watched a lot of youtube videos discussing the process, daydreaming of placing some distance between myself and Trump. There are a handful of countries across Europe I'd jump at the chance to move to if there were reasonable odds to get permanent residence or citizenship.
I think we don't want open entrance policies in place that would make it easier for MAGAs to come over. Best to have some kind of requirement which filters out the MAGAs as much as possible, say minimum education level to get a work or digital nomad visa or only people from "at risk groups" such as Transexuals qualifying for asylum.

Were I am now, Portugal, there's pretty open immigration policy for Brazil with no actual minimum requirements and the result is that we imported a ton of far right muppets from there, to the point that in the last Brazilian Presidential election the proportion of voters for Bolsonaro in Portugal (as Brasilians can vote from abroad) was a lot larger than in Brasil - since Brasilians resident in Portugal can get Portuguese nationality after 5 years, this also help fuel the rise of the Far Right locally.

Having some kind of reasonably easy and fair system to filter out the Fascist assholes would be much better.
Nope don't do it. U will get MAGA. Be super careful vetting anything that loves trump and musk. I myself planning on retiring early. 45 yo software engineer. I will end up in SEA in next 4 years. Getting ready to sell all my investment property here. America is not going to last for too long.
- We're already getting MAGA, thanks to the internet. It's called far-right populism. Many of their takes are taken over from the X crazies 1:1. Sometimes they don't even fit our situation. No matter. Flooding the zone is all that counts.
omg then the EU as we know it wont exist for long if such policies were to be implemented.
- because it would be full of people?

Canada seriously needs to make a big show of offering the same thing. It's now or never.

We don't have the housing. Carney needs to get the government into home building yesterday.
- it's the perfect time to use that Canadian steel and aluminum
- deport all the illegals. its easier and faster than house building.
Or, you know, force investors to sell.
A lot of scientists get paid terribly in Canada unfortunately. Certain industries are non existent or exist to support the US industry (mainly pharma)

I left the US for Germany almost 2 years ago now. I'm a software/aerospace engineer. It was like time traveling to the future in some ways, worker right are way better here and 6 weeks of vacation has cemented that I'll never go back.

Now I just need to do my part to make sure conservatives don't ruin this country any more than they already have. Not excited for Merz to get into power and continue selling out his country.

Given the AfD results I wouldnt be sure if it couldnt get much much worse.

Tbh cost of living in germany has been rising a lot and a lot of public infrastructure has been severely underfunded.

I still know people leaving for the US, but given recent developments this has been getting rarer
- I'm hoping, with the right policies and communication Die Linke can canbalize the AfD voter base. It'll be hard with all of the money getting pumped into media to serve the right's needs, but I'm hopeful the truth can cut threw the BS. Germany seems largely more educated and more responsive to science. But maybe that's not data driven and just my emotional hope.

I'm doing my part fleeing to Sweden, granted I'm a programmer and game dev so not a scientist. I'm done letting the US profit off my skills though

You will like it, Sweden has a nice relaxed working culture where we actually care about how people feel at work.
Welcome home to the capital country of gaming!
- Thank you! I'm so excited to make my way. Just hoping the US holds out long enough for me to make the move I'm definitely a bit scared with how fast it's all happening here
I'm in the process of getting certified to be a nurse in New Zealand. Fuck this country.
I assume you're taking a big hit salary-wise (a trade-off I would make, for the record).
- Cost of living. You earn a lot less in Europe/ UK, but you pay far less to have a basic standard of living, and enjoy the safety net.
- Well I'm going back to school there first to get an actual degree. After that though yeah I'm expecting to make around 1/3 what I am currently, between switching countries and going from automation engineering to level design. I think it'll be a worthwhile trade-off too
- Certain stuff, and especially rent, is a lot cheaper in Europe, though.
  It was a pretty big shock for us when so many of the Ukrainian refugees that arrived during recent years came in SUVs, and they looked quite new, too. But in Ukraine, one of Europe's poorest countries by far, cars cost a lot less, too.
I want more European game developers, so yeah good on you
Did you just job hunt over there and get a work visa?
- I've got enough tech experience I probably could have. I'm going back to school though out of savings and going to get on a student visa
Don't forget to get rid of your US citizenship or they'll still profit off your work.
- i thought it was just that if the country you’re in taxed you less than what the US would, then you have to pay the difference to the IRS?
  
  … and there’s no way in hell the US taxes less than sweden (and for anyone that hasn’t had an ice pick lobotomy that’s a good thing)
  
  *edit: foreign tax credit
- How so?
Remember that your last place of residence in the US determines your voting residence while living abroad. If possible, move to a swing state (preferably with low population, and preferably in a swing district for local elections, too) long enough to establish residency before moving abroad. Plan ahead now and maximize the impact of your vote in the long run. Also register as a republican so you can vote in republican primaries (to vote for anyone who isn’t Trump), as well as making gerrymandering harder.

Myself included lol.

Moi même aussi lol

Pas besoin du "même", juste: "moi aussi" :)

J'espère que la France vous plaira, bonne adaptation!
- Est-ce qu'on distribue les baguettes, les cigarettes et les bérets obligatoires à la frontière française, ou est-ce plutôt une chose parisienne ?
G'day knackers, what's crack-a-lackin?
- French is such a beautiful language.
Shit I was studying German.
- Come on over, we have plenty of beer, Kollege

I feel like the amount of stupid per unit volume in America is indeed increasing.

But decreasing per kg :)
- kg
  
  "Stupid communist units that nobody understands"
  
  the USA, probably

side note: Brain drain from an adversary is one of the reasons why the US completed the Manhattan Project faster. History repeating itself. Maybe this time around the fusion project is completed faster with the intention of long term peace without the need for deterrence.

First you gotta pitch that as a startup, why should I invest in this brain drain long term peace?

Left for Taiwan in the first Trump presidency. Haven't been back since.

Cool, what you're doing over there?
- Website optimization. My customers are global so I can work remotely.
Jealous! Taiwan is an amazing place
- Come visit. We are a very welcoming country and love foreigners and tourist!
When you gonna go full China? Feel like that's the best bet at this point.
- I prefer to call it West Taiwan, at this point, China needs democracy and what best to bring it than Taiwan.

I wish I was a scientist so I could go too.

And frankly, this is just another parallel to WWII and Nazi Germany's rise. The non-fascist scientists and people fled to safer pastures.

Can some of y’all flee to Canada instead?

We have French Canada if your dead set on speaking French.

I'd love to move to Canada. How can I find a job there?
- The affordable housing is the more pressing problem.
I 100% would but being “skilled labor” kinda ruins it. I am finding out that 15 years of nuclear instrumentation work doesn’t appear to help much, at least not according to what I have found. For now though I am stuck here dealing with the insanity of America’s downfall. New plan is to save all my money to spend abroad and in Canada when on vacation. Just embarrassing to be American now.
- "Skilled labor" i.e. SEO (search-engine optimization)
Vancouver and Toronto are so expensive. What are some LCOL cities in Canada?

Also its very cold in winter. Love the super long summer days though :-)

The atmosphere is nearly perfect for an EU resurgence. American workers potentially willing to leave is only one piece of it. You also have interest in drawing together as a continent against a new shared enemy. Hell even Germany is ready to drop their spending limitations to actually try to rise to the occasion.

I really wish they'd take it a step further and pump heavy investment into the region - and not just defense. Isn't it exactly the right time to build European industries to replace the American ones they are no longer sure they can trust?

So true! I especially hope the software industry will be a focus. That's where security and civilian life converge and Europe has the skilled labor to pull it off.

$16M for 3 scientists for 3 years? I hope those scientists are bringing their whole labs with them?

Why not? That's ~1.77 million per year per scientist. Yes, that is a lot of money. But if you think about it, those scientists might be able to start multibillion dollar economies. They can train hundreds of experts in their field. And some lousy CEO of some stupid company gets paid more
Maybe they are just being well paid
- This is a foreign concept to American scientists.
Top level scientists/professors are like famous sports players. Recruiting them is a prestige boost which attracts students and employees, but also can have very direct results if they manage some breakthrough or novel solution.

Talking about labs. Building, organizing and running those is far harder than spending money on equipment usually.
i hope they are engineers or doctors. not the "science" of gender studies. lol
- You got a problem with people wanting to not be pieces of shit huh?
  
  Anyways here is some good book recommendations for everyone else.
  
  1: My Lesbian Experience with Loneliness by Nagata Kabi
  
  2: Fun Home by Alison Bechdel (Yes the same Bechdel behind the Bechdel test)
  
  3: How We Fight for Our Lives by Saeed Jones
- What's wrong with gender studies? Fiji has three genders!
- I hope you have the day you deserve. lol.

Back in 1945 you know how many people America took in who did any kind of scientific work. wernher von braun may be the most famous. That was just to insure that America would be leaders in the world. Now it doesn't seem America wants to have anything to do with leading the world in any field to progresses america as a country.

Wernher Von Braun? This one?! Hahahah

Gather 'round while I sing you of Wernher von Braun A man whose allegiance Is ruled by expedience Call him a Nazi, he won't even frown "Ha, Nazi, Schmazi" says Wernher von Braun

Don't say that he's hypocritical Say rather that he's apolitical "Once the rockets are up, who cares where they come down? That's not my department" say Wernher von Braun
Wdym? We already have Musk, Thiel, Zuckerberg, Horowitz, Yarvin, etc.

EDIT: apparently the sarcasm wasn't obvious, so here's your '/s'
- Literally people that try to rip the US apart and privatize it.
- You just named a bunch of executives. The scientists are the people that need to be working for them for their companies to keep innovating. The scientists are the ones fleeing.
- the usa doesnt need MORE capitalists

Y'all need data analysts?

Data analysts with decades of wine industry experience?

I know a guy...

Sadly, France doesn't have a very well developed wine industry yet!
- If only some Americans could show them the way.. I'm sure all they're missing are some sick viral marketing campaigns, maybe replace the corks with sports-drink style suck-on plastic caps and some bold colourful text on the labels. Of course we'll also have to replace the grapes with corn syrup to improve margins.
You may have a look to Bordeaux's University. There are litterally school and research center for wine 🤣

https://www.u-bordeaux.fr/universite/organisation-et-fonctionnement/composantes-de-formation/isvv

This French university made the news on scientific news sources a week or so ago when they announced this, I thought it was a fluke... glad to see they are getting applicants

Of course, I am fully aware that this is just one isolated case since US-based academics would never think of applying for European positions. Most US-based academics would never know resources such as EURAXESS which hosts many academic positions in Eurozone and beyond, or jobrxiv dot org which also includes lots of European academic positions. This is not mentioning country-specific resources such as when I was lurking on jobbnorge dot no for Norwegian jobs, and a personal communication I had with someone at University of Gothenburg who was literally asking me where to look for US-based postdoctoral applicants...

Anyway what was I saying

Makes me wonder where all that money is going? I mean they must be making billions in those funding cuts. Are they all gonna funnel that money into Russia and tech oligarch's pockets?

They want to create an oligarchy in the US.

Privatise everything and give them to their billionaire buddies to run.

Imagine the money you can make by selling weather data, gathered by government sensors. Or a private VA organisation with an exclusive contract with the government.
- Selling to who?
  
  If the masses are penniless serfs, who is going to buy the services provided? One of the other 8 billionaires who own the country?
  
  They really haven't considered the longer term here. Ultimately, they'll be kings of a worthless backward shitheap, despised and shunned by the international community, their best and most promising exfiltrated to the rest of the world then fenced off to rot into obscurity.
  
  Like North Korea, more or less.
- The US is an oligarchy already. It has been since at least the late 70s. It is just that now the system is falling apart.
- Brain drain also shifts the country rightward. Worked well for Fidesz, will work well for the Republicans.
yes
Not to Russia probably, not directly at least. Just to oligarchs. But not just tech oligarchs, oil barons will obviously take their share, no oligarchs will be left hanging
Makes me wonder where all that money is going?

Scroll down to spending categories. Most money is spent on things like social security, medicare, veteran care, unemployment insurance, and health. Defense is 13% (and absolutely needs to be audited ASAP). Interest payments on debt is now 13% and growing fast. This is why it's important to at least reduce the deficit as fast as possible. Imagine how much good the government could do with another $400B each year without those interest payments. (well, maybe not this government, but the next one).
- Since this shows spending since 2024 oct it would mostly relate to spending in the government before actually wouldn't it? I am more interested in what they are going to do with all the influx of money that will come from all the funding cuts that have happened in the last month or so.

Need any IT?

Germany needs plenty. But only the cheap ones with expert knowledge. That’s not how they would word it though
- Well, the correct german word is to say 'Fachkräftemangel' which in my experience translates to 'We need someone with 20+ years of experience, that we can pay like an intern'
- How though. I don't mind working for cheap since I am almost retiring anyways. Need something to keep me busy if I don't have to stress about politics.
As long as you use OpenSource stuff

Any recommendations on where to look? Specialized Sr Software Architect with a lot of Healthcare and Defense experience. I just need to be able to bring my family. Completely unconcerned about any amount of paycut. I just want my children to grow up safe. I've been looking at Ireland mainly, but open to any suggestions.

Canada? What's your background is the honest answer because if you can get some sort of naturalization through your parents it's the best bet.

Honest question though if YouTube has taught me anything it's that America is unique on if you leave you're still obligated to pay taxes to America and if your renounce your citizenship you're still obligated to pay America. Seriously the country is a racket.
If you can eventually get citizenship in on EU country, you can work in any of them.

Sr Software Architect? Generally speaking, Netherlands is going to be the best salary range for you and first 5 years I believe you can get a tax cut.

In Estonia, we have Milrem, which is doing military robotics. Not sure who, if anyone, is doing a decent healthcare solution. In my country the government orders new developments through RFPs rather than some single company making and selling a solution I believe.
To add to the previous comment: netherlands but there is an housing issue. Belgium has in military the FN Herstal weapons manufacturing plant, and a few stuff linked to NATO. But on a healthcare level, there are loads of pharma companies (GSK, Johnson, UCB, Solvay, Viatrus,... ). France has Dassault, so there is loads linked with military and software alike. And they have Sanofi in healthcare.

Big companies will go through bigger loops to help you with a visa. But in any case a lot of specialities can recieve fast tracked visa applications

France is crushing it lately it seems.

I was planning to try and immigrate to Europe from the shithole country I was born into. The last thing I need is Americans competing with me for the same. Grrrrr

what's your shithole country like and do you wanna trade
- India 😔
do you want my real opinion? ok here it goes: if you were born in a shithole then the % is high that you are a net negative economic contributor for the EU.

but you are on lemmy and write english so you cant be that bad.
- Usually when you ask if someone wants something, you wait for them to say yes before providing it.
  
  Based on your other comments in this thread, you don't know much about immigration so your opinion isn't worth much
- This guy is getting ratio'd in this thread for insanely stupid takes. But this one is wild. Are you saying they should stay in their shit hole country and make it better themselves? It's their responsibility to fix a COUNTRY? It's their own freedom to decide what to do and where to go. If they're from the EU and a shithole country it's likely an eastern EU war ravaged country by world antagonist Putin. I'd wanna gtfo too

til paperclip in French is trombone, as the instrument, i see some resemblance

pardonnez-moi, puis-je vous intéresser à un programmeur?

Reste chez toi.

Take me with you, I'm neither an average fighter nor a brilliant scientist, but you can't live a trans-sister to die in this wasteland of burgers and guns!

The low prospects of jobs for undergrad who don't have enough experience for grad schools also turns people completely away from being a scientists to, unless you have research published or significant experience in lab work prior to graduating you won't get far, it's also harder to get into them health, like

It will take me sometime to save enough money, but once I do I am fleeing as well.

40..is not a lot

That's at a single university.
- Which is the only one that the article mentioned as offering. Blame the article if you think the numbers are bigger and they didn't bother mentioning.
Barely anyone is actually a researcher at an university. Science is a pyramid scheme in a sense and everyone cut away to form the top is someone selling their soul to the industry as an engineer. Hence actual numbers are small in every field of research.
I personally know three people who are moving. All engineers. All queer.
- 43 people is more than 40, but not a lot
This is the new flavor of lazy journalism. How many headlines do you see like "Senator X SLAMS so and so in a FURIOUS conversation" and then you click through and there's some mundane talk in congress. Or, "So and so has a MELTDOWN live in front of blah blah" and same thing. This article takes something that is probably not good (scientists leaving the US), picks a single example and then makes a case that this is generalized.

The way this makes me feel is that if I go to the ice cream stand and watch a child accidentally drop their ice cream, then go home and pen "ICE CREAMS being DROPPED all over the US! Can this happen to you?"

Basically, instead of real journalism we get clickbait. The linked article isn't the worst example of this, however, it's a trend that has frustrated me to no end.

If only I had money....

Good for us. Very very good for us.

Oui oui

I suddenly like a lot of things about France.

I have a vps with OVH which is French, and pretty great.

I'll 100% sign up with eutel (?) satellite internet if it's ever available here.

I've also been using mistral l, a French LLM, to draft some documents lately.

I’ll 100% sign up with eutel (?) satellite internet if it’s ever available here.

I'm just wondering, why? Do you not have any decent broadband options available?

Fiber's still going to be better than satellite, but obviously if you can't get fiber, satellite is probably better than aging copper.
- Yeah, at home we do have fiber.
  
  I'd like it for my camper trailer. Something like an RV.
  
  Here in Western Australia we have reasonably good 5G mobile coverage in cities and towns, but it's patchy outside of those areas.
  
  Having satellite internet really opens up a whole lot of cool places you can set up to camp.

Aw shiz, now when it turns out US scientists don't know sciency stuff because hustle culture

I'd like to see numbers at scale. I don't see too many people taking pay cuts yet

Things will only get worse from here. Some people are more worried about being put in chamber then their paycheck.
- I don't think most people are quite there yet. I'm not saying we couldn't be there 3 months from now. I just don't believe it's currently widespread.

I'm looking forward to hearing all the people that say raising taxes would lead to all the talented people leaving the country addressing this.*

Realistically I understand that they're all talentless lying bastard failsons that just wanted to make more passive income from their family's wealth and no journalist will ever challenge them on it.

I for one welcome our new French overlords

Aix Marseille University

It's not the best place or they want to attract some people for a better reputation after COVID issues.

Raoult is know full conspiracy theories.

Idk if this has anything to do with the Article focusing on France, but I recently learnt Gizmodo was bought by a French-Swiss company.

We deserve this.

But be careful, there could be sleeper agents amongst them

I voted for Trump and have to take Life Saving Medication once a week and I DONT CARE! There's NOTHING Scientists have done that GOD cant!

Might want a /s tag on this before you get downvoted to oblivion.
Nothing like raising the life expectancy of you children by about 40 years in a century or building all the technologies that you are using to send this message?

Didn't God make scientists?
- Pretty sure that this commenter makes use of a lot of irony. See their post history.
K

(Check the account profile, guys)
- No.
- Its a parody acct
Wait...not sarcasm??!
This so called "GOD", is he in the room right now ?

Lol calling this brain drain is ridiculousnin my opinion. Nazi germany didntnhave brain drain, they also removed the peoplenwho didnt think like they wanted them to.

The Nazis literally lost Einstein.
- And Von Braun
Nazi Germany absolutely did have brain drain though? A lot of the scientists working on the manhattan project were german, but fled the country/were forced out.
- But if you force someone out how is that brain drain? I thought it meant when lower income/quality of life countries "loose" their "smart people" to countries with better living standards. I wouldnt refer to it as brain drain if you do it on purpose. But it seems like i have the wrong definition for the word. Thing is it doesnt really matter, i like that all the smart people from the us are moving to europe, we just have to grab this chance and rise up in industries dominated by fascists like spacex. Btw what is the obsession with space travel among fascist leaders? Sorru if i rambled for a bit too long.
May I introduce you to this fine gentleman?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Einstein