[SWE] Swedish government wants a back door in Signal
[SWE] Swedish government wants a back door in Signal
Den krypterade meddelandeappen Signal växer – nu använder till och med Försvarsmakten appen. Men regeringen vill tvinga bolaget att införa en teknisk bakdörr åt Polisen och Säpo. – Om det blir verklighet så lämnar vi Sverige, säger Signals chef Meredith Whittaker, i en exklusiv intervju med SVT.
Swedish government wants a back door in signal for police and 'Säpo' (Swedish federation that checks for spies)
Let's say that this becomes a law and Signal decides to withdraw from Sweden as they clearly state that they won't implement a back door; would a citizen within the country still be able to use and access Signals services? Assuming that google play services probably would remove the Signal app within Sweden (which I also don't use)
I just want the government to go f*ck themselves, y'know?
"Every house should break open a wall and build a door only to be used by the police whenever they want to. It will only be used for your protection ;)"
With a universal key to every single door that is easily copyable and sharable, but not really possible to know if one bad cop decides to share it for $$$$
A rep for the Centerparti literally used this argument on the news today, they are very against it. It is just a proposal at the moment, even the military passovely criticized it as they use Signal for communication.
Hopefully that's enough for it not to pass but you never know. If it passes that's a new low.
That's good to hear.
Exactly. We have to think about the children..
Its jot the parents responsibility to be apart of their kids lives and bring them up properly. That responsibility have been pushed onto the governments so that they can leverage it against peoples right to privacy
After the ability to bring them up got taken away by the big capital.
This is Sweden, they're used to the government wiping their assets.
Best comment.
Wherever a service with encryption exists any government in the world thinks they need to be the special child with the access to the contents.
E2E with privately generated and held keys, have you published your PGP public key yet?
E2E with privately generated and held keys, have you published your PGP public key yet?
Exactly. You can't stop secure encryption.
I remember in the very old days of the internet when only the US had strong encryption and thought it was some gotcha. They labeled it a weapon to prevent overseas export. Phil Zimmerman created PGP, lobbed the source into a book (protected under 1st amendment) then shipped it overseas.
If strong encryption exists and people want to use it, you're just not going to be able to stop them.
Reminds me of the story of immigrants who tatooed the algorithm on their back. It was illegal to send them back.
You can still download the APK from their repository, install it, and use signals built in censoring-evasion setting as far as I know.
They are even working on self updating app feature IIRC.
This is why I donate to signal. I know there are decentralized alternatives but I can barely get my family and friends to use Signal.
I have gotten a few family members and friends to use signal as I stated to them that this is the only way to get ahold of me. Other than this, you won't. And because of me, they decided to do so :P some haven't, but its up to them to decide.
Signal has done a very good job of making it easy to get started with the app. The alternatives (Matrix, Simplex, Briar etc.) are all more awkward.
100% agree with you and I do the same.
I have gotten a few family members and friends to use signal as I stated to them that this is the only way to get ahold of me.
Same. It's the default app for everyone I'm close to.
I can barely get my family and friends to use Signal.
Years of lobbying ✊
At least you all can get your family to use it.
I can't even get my spouse to use it unless she thinks what we are talking about might be illegal where we are (it usually isn't)
I've tried convincing family to use it, but all that happens is I just never hear from them until I see them in person or they call me.
They don't even feel the need to back up their Amazon Kindle collection before they get cutoff from it... Thousands of dollars wasted if they ever lose access to the account.
Yup and months of premium instant 24/7 tech support to ensure the slightest thing doesn't return them to default apps in the beginning !
I highly recommend Obtainium to anyone who wants to keep their apps updated without needing a central report (save for the APKs that only publish on f-droid etc)
i would recommend molly instead. its a zero google vode fork of signal, and also available through fdroid.
Really? I got my family to use it with a simple explanation of why, and why they shouldn't use other things. None of them are very tech-literate. And also simply saying it's where they can reach me.
I feel like this is a you problem, you don't explain it well to them and make them understand why they should use it.
I'm not going to say it's not a me-problem, but disregarding the fact that if it was that simple it would be more widespread amongst people is making it seem as if we don't try seriously and downplays the effort many like myself put in.
I care about privacy and about my close ones (as many here do) and I explain the issue to them in a nice way so to not come across as a pushy salesman, and they readily admit that they don't want to put the effort in (effort as in learning something new, upkeeping with multiple apps, etc).
It's not that I don't know why they don't switch immidiately - I know why. It's simply that they don't. It's okay not to switch as long as you know the risks and I've explained the risks and they seem to understand it, but it's not enough to get everyone to switch.
If life was that simple with everyone (I know some switch without hesitation) the world would be completely different.
You can explain to a decent normal person the imminent doom we are facing with climate change and they may understand it very well, but they still wont give up on using their car and switch to public transport immidiately, because it is an inconvenience.
As a sweed, I get really irritated at my country. We were also the ones who introduced chat control into the EU... I fear we're turning into the USA...
Not only USA, but Chains and "Great" Britain as well. You saw how they magaged to get access to all encrypted data stored on Apple's servers within UK.
The politicians in power in Sweden, currently, explicitly said no to chat control 2.0 during the election process. They get voted.. And now they pushed it into the EU and are supporting it. Terrible.
Also Spain has been full force behind chat control. Something something no independence for Catalan?
How does this even make sense? The criminals would just move to another platform like SimpleX or use a VPN.
Whole article in English:
The encrypted messaging app Signal is growing - now even the Swedish Armed Forces use it.
But the government wants to force the company to introduce a technical backdoor for the police and Säpo.
- “If this becomes a reality, we will leave Sweden,” says Signal's CEO Meredith Whittaker, in an exclusive interview with SVT.
If the government gets its way, the bill will be passed in the Riksdag as early as March next year.
The bill states that companies such as Signal and Whatsapp will be forced to store all messages sent using the apps. Leaving Sweden
Signal - which is run by a non-profit foundation - has now told SVT Nyheter that the company will leave Sweden if the bill becomes reality.
- “In practice, this means that we are being asked to break the encryption that is the basis of our entire business. Asking us to store data would undermine our entire architecture and we would never do that. We would rather leave the Swedish market completely,” says Signal's CEO Meredith Whittaker.
She says the bill would require Signal to install so-called backdoors in its software.
- “If you create a vulnerability based on Swedish wishes, it would create a path to undermine our entire network. Therefore, we would never introduce these backdoors.
But don't you have a responsibility as a supplier to support anti-crime efforts?
- Our responsibility is to provide technology that upholds human rights in an era where those rights are being violated in more and more places. In today's digital world, there are very few places where we can communicate privately or whistleblow. Armed forces critical
Whittaker cites the 2024 attack by the Chinese state actor Salt Typhoon on several internet service providers in the US, where text messages and phone calls were leaked. She argues that a Swedish backdoor would open up for the same thing.
- “There are no backdoors that only the good guys have access to.”
The aim of the bill is to allow the Security Service and the police to request the message history of criminal suspects after the fact. Both authorities were positive in the consultation.
- “The ability of law enforcement authorities to effectively access electronic communications is crucial,” said Minister of Justice Gunnar Strömmer (M) earlier at a press conference.
But the Swedish Armed Forces are opposed and recently urged their personnel to start using Signal to reduce the risk of interception.
In a letter to the government, the Swedish Armed Forces wrote that the bill could not be implemented “without introducing vulnerabilities and backdoors that could be exploited by third parties”.
How does this even make sense? The criminals would just move to another platform like SimpleX or use a VPN.
Next move (and not just from Sweden): make the use of a VPN (and any fully encrypted service) illegal for the average citizen—who needs a backdoor when the law makes it a crime to simply use full E2EE? Let those be used with trust by the army, the press, organizations and people like that just not by common people that should have no privacy at all.
Politician incompetency and dishonesty will finish to ruin what little of Europe remains and what the word democracy was supposed to mean (which is not to consider your citizen like clueless children that can't understand shit and that can't be trusted).
But in exchange of ruining that they will get some more power and/or money, so that's fine I suppose.
I did not expect this from Sweden.
Governments have long wanted backdoors on secure private communication, and so long as we have an ownership class, they always will.
And backdoors will always be more useful to hackers, industrial spies and terrorists than they are these departments of state looking to ensure national security (or watch for proletariat unrest. We're already pissed.)
And the private sector will always route around these backdoors, possibly by modding the client or offering new services that are still secure.
States should get used to disappointment. Investigation bureaus should prepare for going dark. Once upon a time they had to rely on detective work rather than asking Google whose phones were near the incident or what web-surfers were asking questions about the circumstances pre-hoc.
it always bugs me how governments who demand backdoors continuously fail to realize that even if they backdoor the encryption of Signal: PGP, or more similarly to Signal, Pidgin+OTR and/or OMEMO all still exist, are well maintained and are designed to work on top of insecure channels. This isn't gonna be the way to catch actual bad actors, they'll all just get SimpleX or Pidgin or any other number of things and continue communicating and "going dark".
...not to mention that Signal's source code is open, so even if they compromise the Signal client, you can just switch to Molly or build an older version - or if the server is compromised, you can run your own with the backdoor disabled or stripped out. This is a zero-sum-game all the way down.
People host signal proxy for countries where it is banned already. The primary impact of this law is on non technical people and new users thinking to switch to.
Here's the repo in case anyone is interested in hosting an instance: https://github.com/signalapp/Signal-TLS-Proxy
Before any politician asks for a backdoor into an encrypted service they should be required to explain Project Rubicon
Project Rubicon
You're talking about this project?
Yes. The Wikipedia page is also a long list of wtf.
But the Rubicon was crossed so... ¯_(ツ)_/¯
Because that worked so well with the US government’s back door into telecom companies. I don’t think they got the Salt Typhoon group out of the system yet.
Why swedes, why?
The current government promised they would be "tough on crime" but have been largely unsuccessful in reducing gang related criminality. Now they are trying to find new tools to get to the leaders of those gangs. Sadly, they don't understand technology.
Oh how quickly them western values collapse.
The Swedish government can go suck a lemon.
I don’t think this will happen: Their department of defense has adopted Signal for internal communication, and there is no way in hell they would want a backdoor built in. In fact, the article says they have already opposed the suggestion.
The government is very split on many questions. Privacy being a weird one because it's the (somewhat) left-leaning Social Democratic that usually come up with these crazy ideas without understanding the implications of privacy.
See Chat Control 2022-2024 https://www.techradar.com/computing/cyber-security/chat-control-all-you-need-to-know-about-the-eu-plan-to-scan-all-your-whatsapp-chats
let's say that signal is magically blocked in Sweden, can you still use Molly?
https://droidify.eu.org/app/?id=im.molly.app or https://github.com/mollyim/mollyim-android
No, probably not. They both speak the same protocol and talk to the same servers.
Unless the block was a app store distribution restriction only
Stop this!
Would anyone accept if the government installed a door into your house that only they have the key to?! Just in case they need to come in and avoid kicking the normal door when I am not home...
As ever, a "technical backdoor" for anyone is for everyone.
Just like the non-technical backdoor
Article with no trackers
The encrypted messaging app Signal is growing – now even the Swedish Armed Forces are using the app.
But the government wants to force the company to introduce a technical backdoor for the Police and the Swedish Security Service.
"If it becomes a reality, we will leave Sweden," says Signal's boss Meredith Whittaker, in an exclusive interview with SVT.
If the government has its way, the bill will be passed in the Riksdag as early as March next year.
The bill states that companies such as Signal and Whatsapp will be forced to store all messages sent using the apps.
Leaving Sweden Signal – which is run by a non-profit foundation – now states to SVT Nyheter that the company will leave Sweden if the bill becomes a reality.
"In practice, this means that we are being asked to break the encryption that is the basis of our entire business. Asking us to store data would undermine our entire architecture and we would never do that. We would rather leave the Swedish market completely," says Signal's head of Meredith Whittaker.
She says the bill would require Signal to install so-called backdoors in the software.
"If you create a vulnerability based on Swedish wishes, it would create a path to undermine our entire network. Therefore, we would never introduce these backdoors.
But don't you as a supplier have a responsibility to support efforts against crime?
"Our responsibility is to offer technology that upholds human rights in an era where those rights are being violated in more and more places. In today's digital world, there are very few places where we can communicate privately or whistleblow.
The Armed Forces critical Meredith Whittaker mentions the Chinese state actor Salt Typhoon's 2024 attack on several internet service providers in the United States, where text messages and phone calls were leaked. She believes that a Swedish back door would open the door for the same thing.
"There are no back doors that only the good guys have access to.
The purpose of the bill is to enable the Security Service and the police to request subsequent notification history for persons suspected of crime. Both authorities were positive in the consultation round.
"The opportunities for law enforcement authorities to effectively access electronic communications are absolutely crucial," Justice Minister Gunnar Strömmer (M) said earlier at a press conference.
But the Armed Forces are negative and recently the Armed Forces urged their personnel to start using Signal to reduce the risk of eavesdropping.
In a letter to the government, the Armed Forces writes that the bill will not be able to be realized "without introducing vulnerabilities and back doors that may be used by third parties".
This is why you make a protocol rather than an app so there is no owner.
Protocols are much more difficult to create and implement.
The barrier for technical ability and maturity is much higher. Which is why you don't see them as often, and when you do see them they tend to suck, have massive gaps, or some other significant failing that prevents them from really scaling out.
Building reliable and robust protocols with a hobby project is a nearly impossible task, it takes a lot of effort and a lot of minds over a long period of time to settle on the specifications. And just as long to actually implement it.
Usually this requires some sort of funding and dedicated resources from the get-go. Which many of these projects lack.
Briar has entered the chat
(No central servers and everything goes through Tor, try blocking that!)
They will probably just show message to Swedish ip addresses and state that they cannt provide you with the binary as you are using a Swedish ip.
Something very clear to say use a VPN 😉
Sweden… more like snitchden… amirite?
I really like that Signal is able to update itself. Even our of the stores, it can still be up-to-date.
This is where Signal's biggest problem shows. It's centralized. Matrix is the better choice since it will be up to you if you decide to break the law if it's banned, since there will still be plenty of servers you can reach.
yes. but transition takes time and my mom just installed signal last year. we will get there for sure.
I moved my whole family over to Signal specifically because it was so easy. SimpleX is easier than Matrix, imo, but when Matrix is equally as easy to set up as Signal, then we'll see where things are.
The only big issue I've heard with Matrix is the current implementation doesn't scale well, due to how servers are required to clone data (or something). I think they're working on a fix, but it's still not ready for prime time, I think.
Then they get it through fdroid?
Only Swedish backdoor I want is...
Ah the ol' Kingsmen ending.
And I want a better future. Guess we're both gonna be disappointed ain't we
Signal's american and their infrastructure's based on american Amazon, so there's that...
You could use a VPN i guess.don’t kink shame
so much for swiss privacy
So errrm Sweden and Switzerland are two different countries.
oh well. Shouldn't be typing shit when tired
Lol