what are the grievances with the "male loneliness epidemic"? [close this topic maybe?]

Some is valid. Men aren't taught how to make and maintain emotionally open friendships, with men or women. It's seen as weak or weird to cry on front of your bros when you're sad. This leads to loneliness. This is real.

Some is not valid. Men claiming that they're not getting laid and it's women's fault is bullshit. Or that women have impossibly high standards and are gold diggers. It's nonsense.

The problem is that the "women hating incels" have coopted the term, and their garbage deserves to be mocked.

When people have created a narrative that "white x y z men" are responsible for all the evil in the world (I'm exagerating, but you get my drift), it creates a very difficult situation when those people are facing some serious difficulties. The intellectually lazy thing to do in that case is to brush it off or minimize it, like in the ways you've described. And unfortunately, that's the route those same people will take, since identity politics are intellectually lazy (and lacking compassion, but that's another story).

The unfortunate part of it is that the right has taken advantage of that wide open flank, which is one main reasons we're in this current clusterfuck.

I'm a very fluid person. So I think I have great inside in the differences between genders and sexualities in loneliness.

A lot of it have to do with "be approached".

As a woman presenting person a get approached a lot, a lot of people I don't know want to talk with me. It's ridiculously easy to make new acquaintances and friends. Everyone wants to talk and be around you.

As a male presenting person I also get approached a lot when I'm in "gay spaces". Again it's impossible to be alone unless I voluntarily would want to.

Yes, these two have the handicap that a lot of approaches are "sex related" of by people wanting sex. But not all of them, among so much approaches there's always some that doesn't just want sex.

Then, as a male presenting person in not gay spaces and even more so in straight spaces. I don't get approached, never, at all. Zero people talk to me just because they want to be near me. If I want to meet somebody I always have to be the one initiating the approach.

In my experience this is the root of the issue. And the experience that most people complaining about "male loneliness" are talking about.

There are other type of loneliness. As a Queer I'm quite familiar with loneliness related to being different, and people literally hating you for what you are, or not accepting you. But that's a different thing. The male loneliness is that feeling of having the burden of all your relationships in your shoulders, knowing that if you don't go after people people won't ever go after you. And that can be devastating with time. Because your self worth get tanked, specially if you are introvert and have a hard time approaching people.

I suppose it won't end until it get normalized to approach cis men the same way it's normalized in the other situations I talked about. The reason of why people don't approach cis men as easy can be discussed, I get that there's a fear/danger factor in approaching a cis male, specially after being approached by so many menacing people in your life. But still, I do think the root of the issue is that. And there's also de commodity of knowing that you don't need to approach a cis man because some will approach to you regardless, so you don't even need to try. I'm the first guilty of it. I don't approach men either, I always wait for them to approach me, because I know they will, so why bother approaching? I suppose there's a great imbalance. Maybe if men would go into strike and refuse to approach people the balance would be restored, who knows.

As a cis het man, the "male loneliness epidemic" is more a collection of symptoms of multiple problems without one source.

Those who claim a single source usually point to women because they're a misogynist grifter looking chasing clout or to sell a scam course / supplement.

So without further ado, here's my non-academic (and probably ill-informed) reckon based on conversations from online and IRL, lived experiences, and perceived societal norms. Have your large pinch of salt on standby.

1. Both men and women have been socialised that the only emotions men show is anger or laughter. Men have been socialised that the only emotion they can express in front of other men is anger and laughter. This means the amount of emotional support men can use from their support network is limited, they're not practiced on how to deal with them, and either have to figure it out by themselves, be lucky enough to have a friend or partner whom they feel emotionally safe to express these feelings, can afford to seek professional help, laugh the problem off with self-depricating humour to repress the emotion, or turn it into anger usually as a result of succumbing to one of the aforementioned grifters.

Understandably, women have been socialised that if a man is showing emotion then that could turn into frustration and anger and so then they either have to risk taking on unpaid emotional labour or remove themselves from the situation. So sometimes you get this scenario where women want men to be more emotionally open but then recoil when they do because subconscious alarm bells start ringing that "you're in danger" because there's a decent chance that they could be.

Thankfully this is changing with younger generations, but it will take a generation or two.

2. Male support socialisation is centred around problem solving, not listening. Even if a guy has friends he can lean on emotionally, the conversations are usually focused around fixing the problem rather than providing a listening space and reassurance that those emotions are valid.

This is the main reason I pass off an "I'm fine" to friends and family because they'd try and suggest solutions to the problem rather than just listen.

Again, this is changing in society but these kinds of changes are slow.

3. Loss of third spaces. This affects everyone, not just men. But these third spaces where people can socialise without being forced to spend money are key for building communities. When people had disposable income or access to lines of credit it didn't matter that there was an expectation that you had to pay for parking, food, drink, ticket(s) for the activity. Now, that's less of an option for many people.

This hasn't improved and will likely only get worse as late stage capitalism squeezes out anything that is unable or refuses to make more and more profit per quarter.

4. The lack of third spaces has moved friendships, courtship, and dating online. Whilst this has meant many people have made connections (platonic and romantic) that would have gone missed, the big tech companies have realised that anger and loneliness are good for business.

The social networks get far more engagement from posts that make people angry and therefore their advertising revenues increase.

Similarly, the dating monopoly Match Group, has realised that having more men than women on the platform means these men will spend money on these platforms for a chance at matches. So they purposely profile men who are likely to pay for things like "super likes" etc. and do nothing to make the experience more pleasant for women.

This isn't anything new by the way, it's the same reason some clubs make guys pay on the door and women get in for free, and it's the same reason why there's more female sex workers than male sex workers.

Men are willing to pay many and women don't have to, but women have to put up with a lot of entitlement from the men who have paid for matches / to get into the club and be constantly fending off attention from men they don't wish to reciprocate the attention to.

Without third spaces for general socialising, the only place to interact with potential partners is paid and will therefore skew financially in favour of women at the cost of their peace-of-mind.

5. This is more of a personal sentiment but others might empathise: I don't want to feel like I'm harassing women.

I'm not cold approaching anyone when I go out because I don't want to interrupt their precious free time they get in between the grind of life. I don't want to interrupt them socialising with their friends or be creepy on the dancefloor by getting in their personal space, or even glancing over too much.

So I stay at arms length, avoid eye contact, and only approach or get close if I'm getting multiple very strong signals large enough to land an Airbus A380.

6. This is definitely just applies to me, but I have exceedingly low self-confidence, self-esteem, and low opinion of myself from a deep rooted depression. That's a straight-up non-starter for trying to be with anyone else because nobody, man or woman, likes an emotional anchor dragging their mood down. I'm working on it but without paying a lot of money for therapy (the NHS waiting list is a joke), I'm stuck trying to work it out myself (see points 1 & 2).

So until I'm fit for socialising in that way, I'm purposely isolating myself in that regard.

Oh and for added flavour, I don't want to be around watching society collapse as the world continues to burn not can I distract myself (or be ignorant enough) to not pay attention to it.

To be honest, right now my mind is telling just to wait for my mother to pass away then withdraw all my money, disappear abroad, burn through it in pure hedonism then off myself once the cash has run out. At least this way I can enjoy a shorter life rather than suffer a longer one.

It has very large implications on society, many of which in contradiction with established progressive policy.

So it's easier to ridicule and/or downplay, than to apply compassion, and change course.

Cis man here.

It's an issue. It comes in lots of different colors and flavors but it all stems from social issues.

There's lots of reasons, some men were never taught about social relationships, men tend to generally be less interested in social interaction thus giving them less experience, some men are ostracized when talking about their social struggles, and these are on top of preexisting environmental factors and preexisting mental conditions.

At this point it's important to say: it's not a contest for genders. Trans people have it hard, nb people have it hard women have it hard. It's just that this is one of the rare times men's struggles are not addressed properly.

I can tell you I probably have about 50 men in my life that I ko and wo are nice but if I had to talk to a man about my struggles socially, there are 2 men.

Now couple this with the fact 90% of men I had deeper conversations with told me they are struggling with depression and some of them having suicidal ideations, it is fair to assume we have a problem.

For me, the depression is always exacerbated by social isolation. It makes sense - not getting some feedback from other people can get you into crazy headspaces and there are thinking patterms that literally make you hurt yourself just to make it stop.

There's another aspect: we are social creatures and as soon as you don't get enough "social exposure" it's harder to learn social cues and "get the vibe", and other people notice. So the more you isolate, the harder preceding social interaction become and the harder it is, which in turn incentivizes isolating. A vicious cycle.

Now not everyone has these issues and I would never say that it's the most important issue in our current society but every time I hear suicide statistics by gender it really puts into perspective that we should get to know those people who we have failed.

One thing I also wanna address is the idea that "men are never taught how to socialize", because I think it implies a lot of things. First, I'm sure a lot of men are not, but a good number of men are. I was for example. It didn't help, but that was never the issue for me. Second, it implies men want to be taught. I spoke to a group of 2 men and 2 women with mental disabilities about if they ever considered complete social isolation. The men said yes and the women said no. I think this is really significant and can give insight into why this is affecting men more than other genders. I would infer from this that women always see the benefit in social interaction, and men pursue social interactions rather as a means to an end. This might be a stretch but this supported by other observations of friends and family.

This topic is really important and I hope it gets talked about more - for the benefit of everyone who wants to see people become happier. The men affected by loneliness, as well as the people who deal with them.

I've seen three sides to it.

Side 1: "boo hoo nobody will fuck me because I don't think other people should have rights"

Side 2: not having strong friendships/relationships because our society is built around capitalism, cars, and social media (this obviously applies across genders, this side therefore is a generalized loneliness epidemic, not a male gendered one)

Side 3: men get socially punished for being vulnerable

In my mind only the second & third side is worth listening to.

I can only suggest reading some of “The Way We Never Were”. It’s a look at society and how it actually was vs the manufactured versions people today use to weaponize the whitewashed past as some sort of ideal. It’s not a psychological book or a deep analysis of society at all, but one of the things that struck me about it that relate to social circles and how it applies to men in particular is the loss of “the village” and the damage “self reliance” - the isolation of the American Family Unit by making it the Family Vs The World - has done to society and the ability of people to form steady social groups outside of work. This, and the need to constantly change jobs to move ahead financially also keeps people on unsteady ground with relationships.

I think its pretty hypocritical for anyone who isnt a male to have an opinion on the validity of an experience they cant possibly have unless they transitioned.

Its like me having an opinion on have a period.

Most of the criticism of it I've seen is about how the concept's been warped to mean women aren't putting out enough for specific men. Other people will also point out that modern society is isolating in general. People who aren't men who are experiencing loneliness might have some skepticism about the idea it's a man specific issue.

There's also some wariness because topics about issues men face can translate for some men into a violent rage towards women. As seen with the involuntarily celibate movement.

People of all types can take genuine grievances and find a target to take it out on. Like income inequality translating to hatred of immigrants. And violence towards them. When you're the mistaken target of those grievances, it can be simplest to want to get away from the conversation unless the person starting it is clear they aren't targeting you.

Those are my guesses as to why people are skeptical.

https://www.npr.org/transcripts/1263527043 Some discussion in here about the topic, but also criticisms of the topic.

https://trinitonian.com/2025/02/14/unpacking-the-myth-of-the-male-loneliness-epidemic/ This opinion article criticizes how influencers drive the conversation, to its detriment.

https://www.fridaythings.com/recent-posts/male-lonliness-crisis-incel-men-friendship-mental-health This person brings up the idea that women are wary of the idea because it seems like they'll be expected to individually solve it regardless of their own wants and needs.

Two criticisms that come to mind are:

• the cause of the epidemic is the patriarchy, therefore it's men's own fault, i.e. the rigid gender roles and "man up attitude" are within the power of individual men to overcome and they just need to um... man up and break down those barriers.
• the cause of the epidemic is men trying to cling to the benefits they would have otherwise under the patriarchy and it's a reaction to non-men having more status and freedom.

(Before you hit reply please remember OP didn't ask for an discussion on if these are real or correct - just what some of the criticisms are. I'm not saying I buy into either of them.)

As a male who grew up around males, men are men’s worst enemy.

I think there is definitely a male loneliness epidemic but I think there is also an equally bad female loneliness epidemic that nobody talks about enough

A lot of people can't see things from any perspective beyond their own limited worldview. If they don't experience a problem, it doesn't exist or it's not that bad and everyone should focus on their problems instead or if they are experiencing something it must be happening to everyone. I think this is causing a lot of the conflict around this issue. There is also the fact that a lot of the men complaining about this issue come at it not so much as "I'm lonely" but as "I'm not getting laid". Which loses them a lot of sympathy.

I think a lot of it comes from the fact that in incel spaces, it's a lot of grievance and blame by men who were raised believing the world owed them certain things. And now they're finding out that it's really hard so rather than look inward at how they can be better and work within the circumstances they're in, they blame wokeism and women's empowerment for denying them their entitlement.

Dark Brandon on youtube has been doing an awesome series on incels that's definitely worth watching. I recommend this video not just for anyone interested in incel culture, but literally anyone interested in WTF has happened to the world in the last 40 years - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBAX4Wi1iNM&list=WL&index=16

On a related note, I wish we would acknowledge that men socialize different and that guys doing stuff together is therapeutic. Ruminating on emotions can have a negative effect in men, while work therapy can be much effective that talk therapy.

Can we please leave gender war slop back at the old site please?

I think it has to do with the death of 3rd spaces which used to be an outlet for socialization. But as a man, I'm also not lonely. I have friends and acquaintances and I get to go outside sometimes.

Dunking on young men is in vogue and socially acceptable.

They won't pass reverse gender or race litmus test...

Cis men have been, and mostly continue to be, the most privileged group in western society. So it’s easy to dismiss anything negative that affects them.

Much of our media depicts men in successful relationships, handsome, with a good circle of friends, decent jobs etc.

Guys see this and think there's something wrong because their reality isn't matching that media.

It's more exciting to think you're observing a widespread social phenomenon than to admit your expectations were shaped by fiction.

im one of those people who does not know what cis-het means? As far as I can tell cis means typical or normal or such.

It's socially acceptable to hate and be biased against men. Especially white men, and especially working-class white men.

It's not so socially acceptable to hate on wealthy white men. The point is you have to become a wealthy white guy, or get bent.

You will also notice the discussion is frame that any man who isn't independently wealthy is a failure at life and undeserving of friendship/love. The advice is always 'get rich and get fit' as if that is the solution to your loneliness. It isn't.

FWIW I never had issue with romance/friends most of my life. But I have had them the past 5 or so years. I'm a middle-class white guy and my social interactions are falling apart. Esp when people find out I don't fit the archetype of 'rich white guy'. I've had so many people be friendly to me and then they find out I don't own a home/drive expensive car/etc and they immediately stop interacting with me, because all they want from me is money. I've also been accuse of various forms of bigotry more in the past few years when previously I never dealt with that ever in my life.

I think it's mostly just the ill-affects of social media and people's warped expectations. I know a lot of people living good lives... men and women both, but they always depressed and angry because they aren't millionaires. And frankly I find that attitude alienating and it also makes me want to isolate, since so much of what new people I meet talk about is their anger at not being wealthy. And if you ever question this or suggest maybe life isn't so bad? Well you're clearly a bigoted proto Nazi...

It wasn't like this 5-10 years ago. I feel like I got my first taste of 'men are awful' social media fueled BS in the 2010s. Now it feels like that's just he default belief of most people. It's really hard for me to find a lady romantic or unromantic, who just wants to constantly shit on men generally. And to find men who also don't shit on other men. And everyone where i live is in this weird scramble to distance themselves from whiteness and masculinity.

For me, I am feeling less and less lonely the more I am alone. Mostly because my perspective isn't the same as most people's. I am very happy and comfortable and appreciative and that doesn't vibe in a world full of very bitter people who think if you don't subscribe to theri flavor of bitterness, you're a traitor. I recently bailed on some of my volunteer/community orgs because they have been consumed by judgemental nasty people and they were making me depressed being around people who just want to be miserable and pissy all the time and blame white men for their own personal failings. My favorite is the gender-skeptical types working in low-wage jobs and being angry at 'white men' for preventing them from having stable jobs... but the truth is these people are totally unreliable and would be horrible at professional work. They are their own worst enemy.

There's basically a lot of modern "feminists" who have decided that two wrongs make a right.

It's good that women feel comfortable expressing themselves and trying to dismantle the patriarchy since it hurts us all. But many of them don't stop there and end up crossing the line into misandry and blind hatred of men.

This results in these "feminists" saying some pretty bigoted shit like "white men can't experience racism and sexism" as well as harassing men for seeking support.

This group mocks the male loneliness epidemic out of spite like other bigot groups.

I have no idea but thought I'd throw out that, as a 58yr old cis white guy I've never been lonely in my life, i have literally no idea what that's like and don't get involved in hypotheses about it all because I have nothing to bring to the debate. I do find human behaviour interesting (and mostly bizzare) though.

The more time I spend with people the more I crave being alone but that's a different thing.

I now live on the edge of a tiny village in the middle of no where Australia and lived in a small cottage off grid in the bush for 10 years previously bit alos loved in an apartment in the sky in a largish city.

One thing I noticed, I found the car free existence ina city bought me into contact with people all the time, even walking you'd see people people and say hello. Stop at a crossing and have a small conversation occasionally etc. i even said hello to women and was never called a pervert ;)

Who says this? I am not a cis-het man and have not heard the criticism. I thought it was a known thing? Are you literally hearing it doesn't exist, or is it more like they need to suck it up and/or that they are losers that need to go outside?

If it's the second, that's sexism. That's where it comes from. Illogical ideas about men. Believe it or not, we have not overcome that yet. People have very twisted ideas about how men and women should behave and feel.

Men, by and large, create toxicity within their own circles. Male culture has a lot of issues and a lot of unrealistic expectations are put in men in US society. Some external, but the majority come from inside. The whole alpha male culture bullshit that permeantes it. There's a lot, and I mean a LOT of good that can come from healthy male culture. But right now it's like men have a branding issue where the loudest among them are also the worst (the Andrew Tates of the world).

I think part of it also depends on were you live. Just as a personal experience I live in a very rural part of northern Nevada, I’m born a raised here. The population is about 4k and honestly I would say 90% of the population are hardcore conservatives. Even as a kid I knew that I didn’t fit in with anyone else. I would usually just keep to myself all throughout school and even now as a 42 year old man I barely speak to anyone. It is lonely but the alternative is a no go for me especially now with politics being such a big part of peoples identity.

Man Carrying Thing has a sketch on male loneliness epidemic. Someone tries explaining social issues to a guy who doesn't care about anyone but himself but starts to listen when he hears the word "male" added to them. Male lonliness, male climate change, male war. The guy now cares deeply about these social issues (because they affect him) except he thinks all the problems are caused by women not sleeping with him.

"It's stupid, it's not a thing, it's men's own fault"

So as someone who recently learned my gender identity is demiguy, I can say it is and isn't a thing.

Masculinity as a whole is a toxic concept in my book. A man is stoic. A man is strong, capable, and will put up or shut up. A man is attractive if he looks strong, acts strong, drives strong trucks, enjoys strength based sports, is emotionally strong, and essentially a lifelong warrior. A man can do anything he needs to by himself. A man can change if he needs to. A man has rough hands. A man dresses prepared. A man does not have too much emotional intimacy. A man is vulnerable only to the extent that he doesn't appear weak.

All of those statements apply to the criticisms. It is stupid. Men aren't socializing with hardly anyone. It's hard to when you have to do the mentioned statements. It is a thing. Men do not have friends to call and shoot the shit with. Men are annoying when we text too much. Sharing real feelings is weakness. It is men's own fault. It's the nature of the characteristics of manliness.

The unfortunate side effect is that Incels have coopted it to defend their misogyny, and women who all have significant reason to be angry at this see it as terribly offensive.

To me? Yeah. I'm lonely. But it's mostly because I didn't understand who I was, and I didn't have groups to fit in with. I like wearing tailored suits, but I love having soft hands. I like lighter clothing, cuddling, playing silly games with children, lavender and vanilla scented candles and candle lit baths.

But men can't share any of that with each other even if they identify as men. Women are the only link to "softness" they experience. This leads to a compounding problem. Men need to accept that they will be alone unless they can connect on something OTHER than STRENGTH.

Ok now that I know my terms I am apparently a cis-het man and don't feel this and don't know anyone who does so its a bit hard to know how or why it may be happening. I am older though so is this possibly more prevalent in an age group? Although also im an introvert so don't need all that much people interaction to not feel lonely.

Being a man is tricky. Full grown males can be physically dangerous and I think there is a subtle undercurrent of worry with all men they may be dealing with a hostile moron, or a worry someone may try to assert dominance. Men are organically closed off past a certain age because of this.

Men also experience allot of these weird power dynamics growing up. Both men and women kind of seek to control and bully youger boys and men until they come into their own.....and suddenly they are grown and terrifying in some respects and everyone magically backs the f*** off. The threat is gone but the history is still there and it closes men off emotionally.

I don't understand how it's just "male loneliness epidemic" in the first place. It's illogical.

That said, when I started to be more open to the girl I liked, she ghosted me, and it seems that she doesn't even want talk to me anymore. It would be much easier if I got some feedback what I did wrong, but I guess it's just men who need to be more open and communicative, not women.

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I kind of assume it's the juxtaposition of "I as a white man have immense social privilege" with "I can't get anyone to play with me". Like, other people are worried about being abducted on the street and you're sad you can't play basketball with your bros?

The sadness of loneliness can be real but in contrast to other things it can feel like it needs to be triaged into a lower priority. And then some men lose their shit over that, which makes people take them less seriously.

I would more empathy for lonely men if every one of them that I met didn’t have massive red flags in their attitude and/or behavior towards women.

Like seriously, a 57 year old man wants a woman to have kids with but thinks a 52 year old woman who wants kids wouldn’t have any by then…