I think we need to have a tough talk about why it’s so much harder to have kids these days, but that would involve talking about wealth inequality and the death of the community.
Yeah. Not having retired family in hood health nearby is an issue. Someone had to move for their career. Or died. Or is too fragile. Or still working.
Nearly need polygamy for the economic certainty.
My wife and I have 6 month old twins… we’re both only children too. We are so lucky that my mother in law moved to our town as soon as we told her. Both of my parents are disabled, and cannot assist. Also, my wife getting the 12 weeks fmla / baby bonding was fine, but not great. I got nothing for paternity leave from my office and took two weeks of pto when they were born. It was and still is rough. If we didn’t have MIL around, we’d be in a real tough spot…
It's really straightforward to understand, there's no "third places" for kids and kids are generally undesired in US society. It used to be, even if you weren't religious, you had community because everyone in the neighborhood looked out for each other's kids.
It's a lot easier when you're not outnumbered by kids and can swap with other adults, even if it's 30 minutes to get a shower. Everyone is so isolated these days, it's much more difficult to build support like that unless you are religious or have family involvement.
My street that I live on has twelve houses that front it, six on each side. Of those twelve houses, ten have kids, and nine have kids between 1 and 9 years old. It's a real treat to be able to let the kids out, to share parenting responsibilities, to commiserate with the other parents when necessary, and to really just let the kids be kids. Sometimes there's ten kids on the swingset in my backyard that is absolutely not designed for ten kids, or they're riding bikes, or playing with chalk. It's a real pleasure.
I bought the house 11 years ago. There were no kids. So we've kinda built the community. We've watched as houses go on sale, people come looking, and we would actually talk to them about our neighborhood.
So it's kind of like the neighborhood that I grew up in at this point, and I really don't think it was by accident. And I don't think that my neighborhood is the only one like this.
I'm definitely not having kids for this reason, and many more. I'm doing I'd say okay right now. I'm stable ish. Why would I want to change that at all? I see my peers having kids and immediately they can't afford to even go out to eat, and don't have time to get a beer once every 4 months. They chose that, I don't hold them against it, but why would I risk where I am for that?
Logically speaking it is definitely a hard sell. I imagine a lot more planning goes into having them these days, and the financial burden is considerable with all the other costs rising as well.
One big one is that today's parents put too much pressure on themselves (both individually and as a group) to always be supervising. Some parents don't feel that they can leave their child alone for 30 minutes while they shower or clean, or watch TV, because we've built up expectations that everything is structured and that we're supposed to sacrifice our individuality for the kid. Some recent research has shown that millennial parents are spending a lot more "hands on" time with their kids than any previous generation, rather than passive supervision like when kids are playing in the house while the adults do something else.
Plus there is a significant line of people who feel compelled to do high effort, high visibility shows of parenting effort: Instagram worthy birthday parties, more structured play and learning, high effort cooking of things from scratch rather than convenience foods, etc.
Finances (and working hours) are definitely a big part of it, but a bigger part is the shift in norms and expectations that we're expected to be much more for our kids than prior generations.
A former coworker used to take leave when her kid was out of school. Kid was 10. I was a 10 year old "latchkey" kid in the 80’s, we'd get home, I'd make a snack for me and my 8 yr old brother. Then we'd ride our bikes until the streetlights came on, and we'd go home.
I'm not a parent. I don't really think either her or my parents were "right" or "wrong", but I don't understand why that changed.
I have a baby.
This is accurate.
I have twins.
Can confirm. totally accurate
While they are <5 years old yea
But let me tell you, once you cross that magical school threshold things get significantly easier. Though you'll have to deal with more and more social type problems, but those are easy IMO as it's mostly just talking with them
Each year after that is easier...at least until the teen years, but again that's more social/attitude type problems, at least you can just leave a 15 year old at home by themselves and go socialize by yourself and stuff
This week is my five-year-old's winter break from school. I was not aware of that fact until yesterday.
I do love them and being with them (my post history should reinforce that if you doubt me); I don't regret parenthood in the least; but their presence has definitely altered my plans for the week, especially those related to work. (I live in a rural area and have no friends here outside of my household, so socializing has not significantly changed for me.)
Point being, you're definitely correct about that part.
Ah, so you're saying kids are not an issue when someone else is taking care of them or they're taking care of themselves. lol
If you don't want kids, don't have kids.
Don't let family, or even your significant other pressure in to it.
I'm sure it is fulfilling for some, but some parents are carrying too much guilt to admit have a kid can lead to depression.
It definitely can. It took me 5 years after my kids were born to feel relatively normal again. 5 years is a long time to feel like you're essentially trapped in your home. Granted, covid certainly didn't help with that, but the pressure to act like everything is amazing all the time never made sense to me.
Kids are hard. There's good moments too but as a percentage of your time they are more rare than the bad. Your brain does a good job of filtering out the bad when you look back on those times but that doesn't make it easier to deal with in the moment.
It's not that easy. Things change.
I am happy to have made the decision. However, I might have decided totally differently if I had known back then:
How badly the environment is going south (for humans) How bad my health would be (most critical things came up suddenly)
Among other things.
There's research that found that people without children are happier than people with children.
According to this study, after adjusting for income, having children is actually associated with higher happiness and well-being.
From a Psychology Today article that summarizes it:
However, household income may not be a good indicator of financial stress. A family with low income that lives in an area with a low cost of living might experience less financial stress than a family with a higher income that lives in an area with a much higher cost of living. Therefore, the researchers conducted an additional analysis in which they included a direct measure of whether or not the family experienced difficulties in paying bills in the last year. This analysis showed that difficulties in paying bills represented a central influence factor for the relation of having children and parental well-being. When the researchers statistically controlled for financial difficulties, having children was actually related to greater well-being in parents.
Thanks for citing your resources, unlike others.
so having kids makes you happier as long as you can pay your bills?
Sounds like a kind of crazy blanket statement for actual researchers to make but then again sociology research.. well..
The study also said that people with children felt more fulfilled over all 🤷♀️
They measured basically immediate happiness and long term happiness. In immediate happiness, the child free group won. In longterm happiness, the parents won. Did a lot of research into that before deciding to have a baby.
Just gotta decide what works best for you and your life style
You can add 1 more to their sample size that confirms this to be true.
Glad that you feel happy. How do you know that this version of you is more happy than a version of you with kids?
I'm finding very little of this thread resonates with me. I have a toddler who I love and get to spend a whole day off with during the week. I still get to do my running, cycling, rock climbing. I get some reading done most nights.
I've mostly sacrificed video games and social life, but rock climbing is social and a happy child is far more rewarding than games.
There are sacrifices, but I don't feel like I've given up my life. Is this because I don't live in the USA?
It is because people are different.
Not living in the USA most definitely helps. The age of your kids makes a difference. My youngest is 16 months old and in his phase where he has no awareness of danger and sleeps like shit still and my gas tank is empty 24/7 by the shitty quality of sleep with the constant mental energy spent making sure he doesn't kill himself. And that is when everyone is healthy.
I would litterally kill for them, but it is easy to understand why people feel like they do, especially with the current economic and societal context.
I think some just cope with parenthood better than others. Some take the feeling of bone deep mental and physical exhaustion and wonder "why/what the fuck was I thinking". They just see all they are missing or regret not doing before. Others get that feeling and feel a deep satisfaction knowing it is a sign they are doing right for their kid. It completes them in a way that is inexplicable for those who don't.
Not sure if that added anything or not but I felt it needed saying.
Do you work more than 12 hours to make a basic income? I think that'd be a large difference between wherever you are and the US.
Nurse salary in the UK
There are sacrifices, but I don't feel like I've given up my life.
Yeah, I think one has to think about carefully first before having kids, and be prepared what they have to sacrifice. Raising a child is not easy.
I think what this post is portraying is regret that they haven't expected on what sacrifices they have to make to take care of a child. A lot of people want to get married and/or have kids just for the sake of it, because that is what society expect them to do.
Another big part is that so many people have virtually zero support. It's just them and their kids. For the first few years, we lived a 4.5hr drive from any family support. I don't even know how you find and vet babysitters these days.
It doesn't help that we're atheists, so we don't even get the built in community support that a lot of churches provide.
Same. Of course there are sacrifices but I still enjoy my life and can do things. Work is what saps me the most and I love my job.
Really depends on your support network, and that's not USA specific. If you have help and your kid is easy going, then life can be a lot easier than if you have no help and your kid is challenging. Help can takeany forms, so yes childcare in USA is expensive and hard to come by, but involved family can help a lot regardless of where you live.
curious if you have somewhere/someone you can trust the toddler with while you do those hobbies.
I found that having a support network (either personal through friends family, or socialized through the government) has a big effect on how miserable parents are early on.
We just take it in turns.
It's definitely partly not being in the US. Economically... it's just really rough. Childcare for our one kid is nearly as much as our monthly mortgage. We make decent money but still have only enough savings to survive 2, maybe 3 months without income.
I still have plenty of hobbies, but like, because finances are tight, we only have one car in a very very car dependent area. There's simply no public transit where I live. So all of my hobbies have to be at home, or after when my kid goes to bed, which is usually close to 9:30pm, leaving an hour, maybe two, for time to myself during the week.
My kid didn't sleep through more than a few hours until she was around 2yo but I'd already had my 2nd when she was 20 months and he didn't sleep through until he was around 2 also. Plus I had 2 c-sections to get over and we moved country. I don't care about sacrificing an old social life but my health and fitness took a massive hit.
I don't live in the USA either, good benefits here.
Same here. Some of the things that have helped make our situation easier:
- Where we live, by law my wife got a year per kid off of work for childcare. I don't know how people do this without a full-time parent.
- Since I work remotely, if my wife had a rough night, she could sleep during the day without worrying the kid was going to kill themselves because I would be around.
- Our kids were definitely on the easier side, especially our first. They almost never cried for zero reason (90% of crying was quickly remediated with the "diapers, hungry, sleepy" checklist), they quickly started sleeping well, etc. Some people have complete devil kids, colic, etc.
What we gave up was doing things together as a couple (romantic dinners etc), as we always had to either bring the kids or stay home with them, but we could still do things on our own when we wanted to. We have family nearby, but they deemed themselves "too old" to look over the kids when they were still babies. Now that our kids are in elementary school age they've been able to sleep over once or twice a year when we get to do a parents getaway for our anniversary etc.
Its nice that you enjoy bein a dad. Do you and your other partner do equal parenting? Only One day in the work week with the kid sounds a bit odd. Maybe I am getting it wrong.
I am picking up more hobbies as my kids get older. I get into what they're into.
I only have one biological kid, he is 29 now. The other 3 are step kids. What I realized is that, for reasons probably too long to go on here, is:
- I am terrible with small kids, the younger, the worse time.
- Teenagers are easier for me to deal with
- I don't get that "it's worth it" or "this is the most rewarding thing" feeling. I feel like I should have never had any kids.when I am doing things with kids I am generally thinking "I want to do something else" not involving kids.
- While I am much better about it these days, there was a 10 year period where i dispised kids, with my spouse, at the time, not making the situation better. I don't hate children, in general, anymore, I am still pretty ambivalent about anyone else kids.
That being said I love my kids, none of the above is their fault whatsoever. However,I totally get why people do not want kids.
I don't even understand how people fine the time, energy, and most importantly money to have children. I can barely find all three to do my hobbies.
Oh that's easy. When you have kids, you stop having time for those hobbies. So you don't have to worry about spending money on them anymore.
Simple: the moment you have a child, you stop being the person who had hobbies and interests and become a parent, a single-minded organism that exists solely to make sure your children make it to maturity in good shape. Your Spotify Wrapped becomes Baby Shark, your guitar or mountain bike or whatever gets ebayed to make room for a nursery, and travel plans become fiction, written around a character who is no longer you, a stolid lump of responsibility.
Your Spotify Wrapped becomes Baby Shark
Or you can just play your music. Babies and kids still like regular music. That's what existed before the hyper commercialized crap came into existence. Kids just listened to what their parents listened too, and as they grew older would start seeking out new stuff.
guitar or mountain bike or whatever gets ebayed to make room for a nursery,
Are you confusing a guitar with a whole band? They don't take up a whole room last I checked. You can just, you know, move the guitar.
And I don't know why you're storing your mountain bike inside in a room but if you can't find somewhere else to place a muddy bike than indoors I'm a bedroom, then yeah, I think it's safe to say you can't afford a kid at the moment.
travel plans become fiction
You can still travel with a baby. Should you? Well, not on planes. But after a year, you can leave them with a relative / trusted person.
Someone who has issues these badly with kids like you tho shouldn't have kids, so we do agree on that however.
It's not like those things are gone forever, infants are the most time intensive but as they get older that intensity fades.
By the time they reach elementary around 5 your energy and time should have returned to a decent chunk, about 10/11 you can start (ultimately based on their maturity/responsibility levels, every child is different) leaving them at home, they can make their own snacks, use the microwave and actually have some independence from you
At work, I was recently on one of the coffee-fetching breaks. Well, I actually fetched my trusty herbal tea. Then we met another guy at the coffee machine and they all started talking about how much coffee they drank. Eventually, they came to the conclusion that they were all addicted, because they had kids. And I just stood there with my trusty herbal tea, like yep, I don't have kids.
Married 18 years, no kids. I think I drink something like 36+ ounces of coffee a day. Myth disproven, I guess.
I assure you, many of us were drinking copious amounts of coffee before kids, too.
Uh...great story?
Thanks!
That's a really small sample group. For another really small sample group, all the people I know that are addicted to coffee got there because they needed to stay awake at the wee hours of the night. Just in case someone decided taking shots at the Infantry in a combat zone was a good idea.
Stop giving into social pressure to have children.
If you truly want to, have the resources, & you're okay with making a lot of personal sacrifices, go for it.
But don't do it just because it's "expected of you" or anything else people say to try and guilt you into it. It will end up making everyone involved miserable.
It's such a natural human function. In our super advanced society, it really ought to take as much sacrifice as daily bathroom breaks do.
babies stop being that hard after a few years
My two year old has been two for the past 5 years...
I remember one time I had an informal work related sitting and my boss asked if I could come. I told him that I can't because it's my week to babysit the 2yo and he was "just bring him along, it'll be fine." So I took him along and then spent the rest of the night babysitting him because my child is a fucking force of nature. He doesn't tire, he will go wandering, he will touch everything and he will throw anything he can get his hands on. So when his nap time came and I had to take him home my boss said "I don't remember my children being that hard."
And that's when I understood that if you have no siblings you were a fucking menace as a child. Parents who have more children do so because they thought the first one wasn't that bad.
Oooooh, I think Marty McFly might be fucking with the timelines again.
ok
Only a few years, eh 😅
yep…
but hey, if you want to die alone with no support and nobody left who cares about you, in a nursing home, don’t have kids 😅
do you value love? having kids awakens an entirely new kind of love and happiness that you never experienced in your whole life….
but, if you’re a sociopath, definitely don’t have kids and collect money as an obsession or whatever….
first year is very hard, it gets much easier as time goes on….
nothing worthwhile is easy peasy
We have twins, currently 11 months old. Even we haven't been this degraded after the first 3 months. The first three were more surviving that anything else and to this day are the most challenging period of time I had to get trough in my life. After that it startet getting better. I even shower sometimes now.
Can't even escape this by being queer - I'm mid 30s and about half of my straight couple friends have kids now, none of the queer couples do, and yet we're still asked about it sometimes, it's so odd.
Fortunately all my siblings have at least one now so finally my mum's stopped asking...
I mean… in a way… that’s a win for equality
The thing about kids is they make you notice aging. They grow up fast but you realize you still are too.
Hunching over in your 20s vs your 30s can be a big feel.
The first 3-5 years is incredibly stressful but it gets better as the kids are able to do more things for themselves and aren't trying to kill themselves 24/7.
Yeah. I loved it when my kid got down to trying to kill itself (through sheer mind-bogglig stupidity, not intent) less than weekly. It really saves on energy, and makes bigger family adventures possible.
and aren’t trying to kill themselves
well…
On one hand, kids are great. They can come with a ton of joy and rewarding experiences. However, they are also exhausting, expensive, and will sometimes push you to the point where you'll seriously wonder if you made a huge mistake.
I have three kids and I love them very much. I wouldn't want to be without any of them but I don't blame anyone for not wanting to have any. Being a parent is incredibly hard work.
Simply - Misery loves company.
It’s all a bit of a cope, deep down there is this primal call that isn’t easily shrugged off. Well for some at least. I know that it will get stronger for me and stronger with each year.
I am not saying the purpose of humans nowadays is to make children nor that we should be reduced to such concepts but… it’s not easy to escape millions of years of evolution. It is definitely going against everything that screams "multiply" deep down and that will take mental health toll
The only primal call I have is to fuck. I could not care less about actually having a kid as a result. If anything seeing how having kids has affected my friends ability to do so has made me want them even less.
Agreed. Never had any desire to have kids, still don't. (The wife wants them, though.)
That said, when we had a pregnancy scare last week, my first thought was "well I'm 36; guess it's time anyway".
She was not pregnant. Which was relieving, because I don't think it's a wise decision to have children in today's political landscape. That said, if it happens, it happens. I don't think I'd have a meltdown over being a dad like I would have in my 20s.
it’s not easy to escape millions of years of evolution
It's insane that we're tied down to instincts when we believe ourselves so rational and sophisticated.
But funnily enough, I don't have that instinct? I'm more than happy to be an uncle and that's as far as the train goes for me. I can't see myself waking up with a child on my mind. So mad respect for those who commit and become wonderful parents. I think it takes a special kind of resilience that needs to be awakened when you're expecting. Props for those who embrace it.
As a parent to a little one right now... I can say that I rarely felt the "drive" to have kids. My SO was really let down that my initial reaction was anxiety over finances, for example.
That said, I don't know if anything else could ever give me the kind of joy and happiness that just being able to love on my kid has brought me. If something happened to her I would be devastated.
But I also recognize that I've had to sacrifice a lot of personal freedom to be a good dad. I would never downplay that to "trick" people into wanting to be parents. It's definitely a tradeoff, and especially difficult financially these days.
Having a child literally rewires your brain and pumps you full of hormones which make you believe that having a baby is the most wonderful thing in the world. Parents go on and on about "you can't understand until you do it!" Which absolutely makes sense because theres no other way to get that specific neurotransmitter cocktail. But that experience isn't objective reality any more than taking acid is. Therefore parents are arguably the worst people to speak objectively about the experience of parenthood. They are just too close to the subject. I feel like I am a much more objective observer of their experience, and it looks pretty awful to me.
That's like saying you're the authority on what an acid trip feels like because you watched someone take one. Also step parents and adoptive parents love their kids without "having" them
You could say this about literally anything though? All of the best rushes in life are just your brain drugging itself.
I mean, to play devil's advocate, there are some subjects in which the person vouching for something being biased because they're "too close" isn't a concern: whenever there's an objective benefit to whatever they're doing
For instance, a person who runs marathons and has experienced runner's high might say running is super fun once you get good at it and you should try it, and maybe you will and maybe you won't, but trying to get good at running wouldn't be a permanent life changing decision like having a child, and it would benefit your health rather than harming it like drugs
There are lots of thrills in life outside of drugs and instinctual hormone soups. Admittedly runner's high is the healthiest example, but stuff like video games, sports with minor risk taking like snowboarding or mountain climbing, etc also fit the bill
Hmmm I wonder if those hormones could be synthesized and taken as a drug? I'd give it a try just to see what it did to me as a childfree person.
Unless you're one of those unlucky ones whose hormones go out of whack and you end up drowning them in the tub.
See, you are missing that cocktail. You have to take one with the other.
Or do as my boss said, get grandchildren and skip children.Acid is probably cheaper too
And you sober up after a while and gain the ability to evaluate whether the experience was worthwhile. I'd try being a parent if I only had to commit to about 12 hours of it at a time.
Hit the lawyer, fire the gym.
Instructions unclear. Charged with arson and no lawyer will take the case since I punched one of them.
Joke's on you! My kid came after I realized that capitalism is fucked and we're probably gonna witness societal collapse within our lifetime. I wasn't going places. I wasn't going anywhere.
Now at least I've got something to look forward to.
I don't think I will ever understand this mindset.
You decided to force a child to live through societal collapse because "it's something to look forward to".
Yikes.
I think that you focussmore on community. "Societal collapse" will probably be more like societal restructuring.
Empires falling is mostly only bad for the ones controlling the empire. Yes, things might get harder, but humankind will prevail and continue to find joy. Probably more joy in a post-capitalist world than I will in a capitalist one. Maybe it's not my child who will enjoy that society, but my grandchild. But I have something to give to the next generation.
You'll have to become more focused on community as the empire falls. but family is one hell of a community.
There is no "Fair" when you become a parent.
Parents who hate parenting misses their old selfish lives. Being a (good) parent means you no longer can be selfish and your life is no longer about you.
That might seem grim, but what you get in return is a little human that looks up at you. That holds your hands because you are their world to them.
Let go of your selfish lives and learn to enjoy your new selfless life.
No
Sure
Yeah, you can be a good parent and still miss your old life. Also, your previous life wasn't necessarily "selfish" - what kind of bleak, one-dimensional outlook is this?
You can love your kid, love to spend time with them, and still want to go to that one event, concert, knitting group, cookout, rave party, bike ride, marathon, whatever. Often, you can integrate your kid once they're old enough, and at other times you'll have to sacrifice your plans, maybe not getting together with an old friend you haven't seen in a while. If that makes you feel a little sad and disappointed, that's called being a human being with nuanced emotions, not being selfish.
Being a good parent is about loving your kid, trying to integrate them, spending quality time with them, all while staying healthy, emotionally balanced and hopefully teaching your kid how to achieve just that.
I never said it's not ok to be selfish. It's perfectly ok to care about yourself. Because that's is the only mouth you have to feed. Once it becomes 2, you have to let go of that feeling of a fair life. It's not fair.
Or I can go visit my sister and play with my niblings but not have to deal with any of the downsides of having children.
Yeah, my parents let go of the selfishness of wanting three meals a day and they never forgave me for it.
Terrible parents do terrible things. If you ever become a parent, you now know what not to do.
It is not selfish to choose not to procreate.
The smugness of parents who say people who choose differently are selfish is a great example of how parenthood can make someone a worse person.
It's not guaranteed you'll enjoy it or be good at it. That would be a huge gamble to take with my own life, but if there's a kid involved I'm gambling with their life, too. I could never do something like that in good conscience.
Well, not receive can do it.
Haha yes if you get a nice grateful one in the genetic lottery. Supposedly.
That might seem grim, but what you get in return is a little human that looks up at you. That holds your hands because you are their world to them.
Is decades of debt worth it? Hard pass.
Honestly, money is money. It's just a number in your account. You can't put a price tag on your own kids.
I’ve never once had someone ask when I’m going to have kids or tell me how great it is.
I constantly hear people removed about it however, getting real tired of the antinatalists.
I get frequently asked by my partner's female friends. None of the male ones ask and none of my friends ask.
Same: 47 years and not once has anyone cared whether I have kids or a partner
Yeah, same. Never been asked. I've known for a long time I've never wanted to have children.
But that's purely for me. Not for me to pass judgement on anyone who does want kids, it's such a personal choice.
I literally got mocked for it by my ex wife's uncles to the point where they would say shit like "do you need someone to show you how to do it?"
