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Does the US have zero employee protection laws??

Just following on from this: https://lemmy.nz/post/1134134

Ex-Tesla employee reveals shocking details on worker conditions: 'You get fired on the spot.'

I'm curious about how far this goes.

You can't get fired on the spot in NZ, unless you like, shot someone or set the building on fire or something really bad.

But it seems that in the US, there's little to no protections for employees when their bosses are dickheads?

Also, any personal stories of getting fired on the spot?

156 comments
  • You guys get employee protections? What are those like?

    I work because I need medical insurance to live. I cannot afford medical insurance on my own without a job. I make 6 figures and live paycheck to paycheck. If I lose my job, I will probably be homeless.

    I would love to live in a world with employee protections. I’m not sure what those protections would be but anything better than what we’ve got seems good.

    • Dam dude.

      I mean, for us it's normal so hard to describe. I guess no one has a constant fear of being laid off out of the blue? And even when a business goes under, they have to pay severance, or in some cases redundancy pay.

      Businesses get in real big shit and it's front page news if they are found to not be paying their employees properly. Like massive fines on top of having to cover the missing pay, and potentially even jail time.

      There's a certain amount of annual leave time that is accrued which can only either be taken as leave days or paid out. Apparently in the US they can just reset your annual leave.

      Medical insurance isn't very common here because we have public healthcare. We also get 10 paid sick days per year (it was 5 before covid).

      With all of these burdens on businesses, they still seem to be doing just fine.

      • Yes, sure but.. let’s take a look at CEO pay. Are your CEOs paid 100x more than the highest paid (underling) employee at that company? If not, that’s not the american way! Your businesses are still in business likely because CEOs there consider workers to be a valuable asset. In america, CEOs consider themselves to be the most valuable asset. We would need to decrease their pay to something more reasonable like 10x the highest paid (underling) employee at the company. Until then, we’re all easily replacable.

        Severence is nice but in most cases you have to sign an NDA saying that you won’t discuss your severence or your time at the company, and that you won’t paint them in a bad light.

  • At-Will Employment yeah you can get fired pretty much on the spot for no reason

    edit: like yea there's labor protections if you're a protected class but if they fire you for a bunk reason it's up to you to sue the business and prove that in the first place which most of us can't do for obvious reasons

  • Others have covered the details of labor laws in the US, so I won't touch on that, but your question does make me think about why those kinds of labor protection laws are even seen as a necessity. And I think the answer to that is we (most people, not just Americans) view jobs as equal to livelihood.

    But it makes you wonder what the world could be like if we had a universal basic income, where getting fired wasn't actually the worst thing that could happen to you. It might still suck, but you'd still be able to have a roof over your head and food on your table while you searched for new work. This, critically, would give you more negotiating power when finding new jobs, as you'd likely be less desperate for a job, meaning you could credibly insist upon better pay and better conditions.

    But we could take this one step further. In economics, there's this concept called an externality, which is when you do something that affects someone else as a side effect. When you do something that harms someone else as a side effect (e.g., pollution), that's called a negative externality. Negative externalities are actually a major problem in completely unregulated economies, because they cause the "invisible hand" of the free market to fail to achieve optimal distribution of goods, i.e., a market failure. The classic example of this is carbon emissions -- the true cost to society of carbon emissions (from climate change) is not reflected in the cost of providing carbon-intensive goods, thus we have a tendency to over-produce and over-consume carbon-intensive goods and services. That is, the economy would be better off in the long-run if we emitted less carbon than we currently are, despite the short-term profits of polluting. Anyhoo, this mismatch between sticker price and true cost to society is why carbon tax is almost universally regarded to be the single best climate policy: by accounting for the costs of the negative externality, you can fix the market failure, and the invisible hand can once again work as it's supposed to.

    But where this relates to where I was going is there are also positive externalities, where you have a positive impact on someone else as a side effect of your activities. An example might be doing regenerative agriculture or rewilding a patch of land -- the pollinator habitat you provide or the carbon you sequester has positive impacts on other people. And like how negative externalities tend to lead to overconsumption, positive externalities tend to lead to underconsumption. I.e., the economy would be net better off of more people did rewilding and regenerative agriculture, despite the short-term immediate costs they incur. And much like taxing negative externalities (e.g., carbon emissions) is a good way to correct those issues, subsidizing positive externalities is a good way to fix the issues of insufficient good activities.

    So imagine if we not only had a UBI, but if the government also would pay you to plant trees or develop/maintain open-source software or any number of other activities that produce positive externalities. If we had these alternative means of maintaining a basic level of livelihood, then maybe we could decouple existing from jobs, and we wouldn't feel a strong need to coerce businesses into holding onto people, nor would we need to coerce them into paying people enough or giving good enough working conditions -- companies would have to pay well and offer good conditions and not fire for unfair reasons, else they'd struggle to fill vacancies.

    We all saw how companies begrudgingly had to pay more during the "great resignation". Or look how the professional class (e.g., doctors, engineers) get good pay and good conditions, precisely because they're hard to replace. Give workers more options, make them less desperate, and they'll be empowered to negotiate better pay and better conditions for themselves. Sure, some regulations would still be necessary, but I think there's a lot of elegance in a bottom-up approach to labor relations.

  • If you aren't part of a union in the US, you're probably working without a contract in an agreement called 'at will' employment where this is 100% legal. This is how the vast majority of jobs operate

    • There's a single benefit there, and that's not having to read through contracts which are boring as all hell, but totally necessary for a modern society.

  • Theoretically yes, but they’re set up in such a way so that there’s always a work around or technicality or means testing that, in reality, means that poor, marginalized, disabled/ neurodivergent people, or non-English speakers are basically totally fucked

  • We have quite a lot of employee protections (not as much as Europe but a lot more than people realize), it's the enforcement that is the issue. While you can be fired without notice for any legal reason, if you are fired for an illegal reason or an illegal reason played a role in their decision to fire you, you can get quite a nice settlement from that. However, if you are fired without a good reason, the employer has to pay for your unemployment, so the majority of employers will only fire an employee if it falls under a reason that makes you ineligible for unemployment like poor performance or attendance (and labor attorneys can often sniff out when an employer is lying about it to screw you out of unemployment). Contrary to several other countries, employees can just quit without notice or even informing their employer, as at will employment goes both ways

    • Edit: Lots of other replies mention this, so I'm just repeating things...

      "At-will" employment is actually a state-level law, and at least one state (Montana) isn't an at-will state. That doesn't invalidate your general points, just think it's an interesting tidbit.

  • There's actually quite a few at the federal level -- not enough, but they exist. There's a decent overview of the federal labor laws available here. Individual states also have additional laws, and shockingly "liberal" (in the American sense) states tend to have stronger worker protections than "conservative" ones.

    Of course scumbag employers count on most people not knowing those laws or how to report violations and will actively push misinformation about them.

    Edit:

    As a bonus, have a Walmart anti-union propaganda training video, because Walmart cares about you..

  • If I had a nickel for every time my boss fired somebody so humiliatingly that they forgot to take their jackets with them on the way out the door, I'd have two nickels.

    I didn't observe this myself -- she e-mailed everyone she didn't fire asking if any of us wanted a jacket and went on to describe the ones her victims were wearing just last week.

  • Not American, so i wanted to know whether a customer can really complain and get a worker fired. I read a lot of posts on reddit where people used to brag about getting workers fired for some silly mistakes. Reading that was weird. Do employers really fire employees just because someone complained on the phone due to some silly reason? Do companies believe the customer story more than the employee story? Why the need to fire anyone? Just tell the customer it's none of their business.

    • Theoretically it can happen. In practical terms, 99% of those cases are out of three things:

      • A charade to get an angry customer to go away (pretending to fire an employee)
      • The last straw in a series of incidents that add up to justify firing the employee (i.e. the employee has repeatedly made a mistake with no improvement over a long period of time)
      • Misconduct egregious enough to warrant firing them on the spot (for example, the employee punches a customer, or shows up to a job site blackout drunk)

      The remaining 1% of cases are truly shitty managers that are a nightmare to work for.

    • I was fired once because I thought it was bullshit that the company’s paychecks kept bouncing, and that we had a employee in the hospital without medical insurance because the CEO didn’t pay the health insurance premiums.

      Each paycheck was a race to the bank to see if yours would get cached first. If you deposited the paycheck in your bank account directly, normally no money would enter your bank account because employer didn’t have enough funds to pay everyone. I was a programer making $9 an hour.

    • So, this is a question with a cultural and legal element. Legally speaking, it is possible in many U.S. states to be fired for no reason -- the employer does not need to explain themselves when asked for a cause[1]. This is to say that it's perfectly legally possible in (many) U.S. states to be fired for a reason so petty as a customer complaint -- whether or not that was the official cause notwithstanding[2].

      With that being said, employers aren't compelled to fire their own employees in response to a customer complaint. From a management perspective, it's generally very inefficient to fire someone because you'll then have to cover their hours and find/train a replacement. For that reason alone, it's already rare in most industries for truly petty firings to happen. Unfortunately, this rule of thumb gets totally flipped in low-training industries whenever there's a surplus of bodies in the labor pool. As a manager, if you're able to replace a burnt-out and/or below-average worker by the end of the week, why wouldn't you roll those dice?

      Even then, it's not exactly a daily occurance even in settings where these conditions are common... with one big exception. When it comes to businesses which serve "regulars" (e.g.: hotels, restaurants, grocery stores) there exists a certain type of individual who expects that their complaints will have the power to get people fired. This variety of power-starved person tends to exclusively patronize establishments where they feel taken seriously. Such establishments deliberately choose to indulge these sleazebags because they're potential "whales" -- people who, if handled correctly, will be worth much more money than the replacement cost of the staff they cause to be fired. These firings are basically performative in nature and have nothing at all to do with something the employee could have controlled.

      [^1]: Protected classes are a whole other can of worms. For the purposes of this explainer, please just trust me when I say that the legal system is still able to protect protected classes without directly requiring paperwork from the employers themselves. The system would be significantly better at this job with a papertrail requirement, but the fact that it manages to work at all when employers can basically ghost employees is something worth noting.

      [^2]: Another can of worms! As you may imagine, when giving a reason is optional, it is often (but not always) legally advantageous for employers to report petty firings as no-cause firings. It's all about CYA. For example, if they're doing something dicey like racial discrimination or retaliation against union organizers, an employer might go in the opposite direction and meticulously document dozens of petty reasons in excrutiating detail. This is usually what's happening when a service-worker employee is "written up" -- that information goes in a file to be used against them if they ever sue.

    • It's bad management if they do that. That employee is going to file for unemployment and will probably get it, which companies have to pay a premium for. The company also has to hire and train a new employee to replace the one they sacked, costing the company even more. I know of times that sort of situation has happened, but in my experience working for various companies most managers aren't that incompetent to take every Karen's word at face value and immediately fire their staff over a random person's word about petty BS, even if they humor said Karen on the phone pretending that they will to get them to shut up

  • Yes, we do have federal labor laws, which you can find summarized here: https://www.usa.gov/labor-laws. They just kind of suck compared to peer nations. Here is the section most relevant to the Tesla employee story:

    All states, except Montana, allow "at will" employment. This means that an employer or employee can end the employment at any time, for any reason. However, the reason for termination cannot be illegal. This includes:

    • Discrimination based on race, sex, age (40 and over), nation of origin, disability, or genetic information
    • Retaliation for reporting illegal or unsafe workplace practices
    • Refusing to conduct illegal activities

    Like others have said, enforcement is spotty, and what state you live in / whether the job is unionized plays a huge role as well in terms of what you actually experience.

156 comments