The destruction of Palestine is breaking the world

The Jewish people of the world deserve apology from the government of isreal for using their suffering as a political tool in service of genocide.
In conflating politics and imperialism with lineage and race, the political movement of Zionism sows incalculable hatred into the world in the name of Judaism, so that they can reap it later, when Jewish people suffer as meat shields, as justification for expansionism, and forever-war. Down with this theocratic shell game.
- As someone who is a Jewish refugee in the US, there are more than enough Jewish folks in Israel and around the US who are completely fine with what the government of Israel is doing. They should not be let off the hook. I say this fully realizing that the pro Palestinian sentiment has a large Jewish constituency in the US. So it’s not to paint with a broad brush. But people living in Israel are almost 3/4 in support of what is happening and the only protests in that country were from people who wanted to rescue the hostages but were fully on board with the horrors the country is committing in the name of Jews around the world. The conflation of a religion with an ethnicity will end up making us less safe.
  
  That's not because they're Jewish, though, it's because they've let their ego and pride overcome their empathy for their fellow human beings.
  There's plenty of non-Jewish people who are also perfectly happy to profit off the suffering of Palestinians.
  
  Those were absolutely not the only protests in Israel, those were the only protests in Israel that got coverage and support from the government. The protests against what was happening were violently suppressed and silenced as has been happening for quite some time. Yes the large anti netanyahu protests made little mention of Palestinians rather than ceasefire deals to bring the hostages home but that is how you bring people together politically.
- My pro-palestinian praxis is making sure my Jewish neighbours have no reason to even think about aliyah. Jewish safety? It's here. Reverse doikayt.
  
  Thank you for the little rabbit hole you provided when I was prompted to look up "doikayt".
  https://forward.com/yiddish-world/613858/doikayt-yiddish-word-bund/
- All my life I've been hearing propaganda tarring all Jewish people as being murdering racist colonizers.
  It's very strange that that propaganda is now coming from the government of Israel and wealthy Jewish people in the US.
  Seems like a really stupid and counterproductive move, but I'm sure they know what they're doing.
- The Palestinian people deserve a lot of apologies from a lot of assholes on the internet that have monetized their suffering.
  And a lot of people in the Arab world deserve an apology from the Ayatollah of Iran for using them as meat shields in their failed attempt to wipe Israel off the map.
  
  Literal parallel reality material. Arabs overwhelmingly support Iran's antagonization of Israel and wish their own governments would do the same. Source: am Arab.

Zionism is a destructive toxic ideology of fascistic bloodlust and racial supremacy. It is the true descendent of Nazi ideology.
- Given that the Zionist movement was founded decades before the Nazi movement, I would say Nazis are the descendants.
  
  More accurately, they’re both separate descendants of ethnonationalism which was a popular ideology at that time. And still today, evidently, though it seemed to be in decline for a bit during the post-war period.
  
  Well, 19th century zionism was a different thing. Edit: or rather, a more diverse collection if things. Optionally but not necessarily evil. Sometimes it was as benign as 'lets all go somewhere and join a community together ajd bring the ways that we're cool to that community and even if they dont totally like us, they can't hate us more than these assholes'.
  So it is fair to say that the idea of zionism that 'won', the genocidal theocratic ethnostate, is at least to some extent based on both the nazis, and some of the same esoteric bs the nazis were into.
  
  Nazis had nothing to do with the Jewish people establishing a homeland in Palestine. Joining those two groups is ridiculous and rude to Jewish people.
  The Jewish people began by buying the land legally in the late 1800s as a way to escape persecution. That pissed off the local Arabs (understandably) and both of them started arguing—which was not usually violent until 1920-30ish.
  That said, after it became a British Mandate (1917), Israel got a ton of international support. And obviously after WWII, they got whatever they wanted…. Which, was choosing violence.
  A lot of the reason the Arabs got little support was because they were fragmented, with no leadership. Each of their revolts were seen as a threat and not a legitimate push back against colonization. And, after the Ottoman Empire fell, England and France “stole” that land, so revolts were more or less terrorism (in their eyes, of course).

Such a shame that doing anything about it, including asking nicely, would be rabidly antisemitic.
Edit: also acknowledging that it's both happening and a problem is antisemitic. You are allowed to day it would be bad if it did, and youre allowed to acknowledge whats happening only while you sing the popular zionist childrens song 'exterminate the brutes'.
- The only victims of calling palestinian supporter antisemitic is non zionists jews who will exprerience more real antisemitism

The split is between governments and the general public. I don't know too many individuals who are ok with what is going on. And if they are, they are being awfully quiet about it.
- The people who are okay with it are the ones who hate the Muslims. Which is a shockingly large number of people and governments.
- But those people still elect those parties thst support israel. Why those parties would listen to people?

Gaza is the latest in a long line of atrocities committed by countries ostensibly committed to a law of armed conflict.
Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Syria... hell the US interventions in Somalia and the former Yugoslavia were as horrifying as they were criminal. Sometimes we can find an exigent threat that gives us permission to use overwhelming force to brutalize the bad guys - as in Iraq '91 with the Kuwaiti invasion. Other times we just have to make some shit up, as with Grenada or Vietnam.
But this idea that we've had an international order for any of the last 77 years is more a reflection on the quantity of our propaganda than the quality of our international ethics. The total war Israel is conducting in Gaza, while the US hovers overhead threatening to flatten any Egyptian or Jordanian or Lebanese who attempts to intervene, has been historic in the degree to which far more cushy liberal rhetoric has been replaced with full-throated endorsement of ethnic cleansing.
But the policies themselves? We manufactured a famine in Afghanistan shortly after withdrawing the last US troops. We have repeatedly blocked countries with socialist governments from accessing international markets to obtain relief, such as Bangladesh in '74 and Ethiopia ten years later. Somalia has been under near constant assault by US Navy vessels "policing" the most lucrative fishing territories, driving up rates of piracy as a substitute for traditional subsistence farming. Then you've got the '91 famine in N. Korea and the '94 Cuban hunger crisis, both the consequence of US blockades.
Any one of these would be considered a modern-day Holodomor from the perspective of an objective outside observer. Unfortunately, Americans only get to hear about Gaza - and even then only in dribs and drabs on social media or alt-news publications - as they turn away from the traditional corporate-friendly press venues.

Israel does not have a future after this. They're removing their own credibility, and the world knows it. They're nothing but a rogue state at this point, waiting to be put to sleep like a rabid dog.
Like a dying star undergoing supernova. A rampant destruction at the end.
- All the major western countries still back up israel and.was celebrsting them attacking Iran. Unfortunately israel is not a rogue state yet
  
  I bet they are grabbing by the balls most of those states with something. If that is the case, it won't last for long.
  
  The US backs Israel no matter what. However the current situation is more difficult within the EU. Suspending the trade agreement with Israel is relativly possible. At the same time Israel being convicted of genocide, would basically end any sort of moral argument made in countries like Germany. Also the US is a huge reason to be more Israel friendly and that relationship has some issues.
  Israel attacking Iran was celebrated in countries like Syria too. Not exactly a rarer stance in the Arab world too.
- Israel does not have a future after this.
  If Germany and Japan could have a future after WW2 - a war they lost categorically - Israel will do just fine in the coming decades, after successfully executing a full ethnic cleanse of some of the more valuable real estate in the Mediterranean.
  Israel isn't a rogue state, it's a cat's paw. They're doing the dirty work as a proxy for allies who have wanted to wipe Arabs off that corner of the map for decades. In the end, however, you're going to see western states welcome Israelis back into the fold with open arms, just so long as they can pin this all on Netanyahu and pretend it wasn't a national project with the full support of the Israeli public.
- Yes an entire population should be put down like a rabbid dog.
  Seriously are you listening yourself? Genocide much?
  
  The state of Germany was put down twice, completely dismantled, and ceded. There are still a lot of Germans around. Do you not differentiate between a state and the people residing in it?

Late stage capitalism is killing the world
- ban landlords.

We are all watching a holocaust live on TV, perpetrated by the victims of a holocaust 80 years ago

This may be a stupid question, but why did we need to create Israel in the first place? If my memory from my shitty American education serves me, they had all these survivors of the Holocaust with nowhere to go, so they created Israel for them to live peacefully, fuck whoever was already living there.
But why couldn't they all just go back home? I know everyone was shipped off across Europe to the camps but like... surely they remembered where they lived before? Everything was bombed to hell but that's the same for whoever lived there, Jewish or not. Am I missing a piece that makes the need for their own country to make sense?
- It’s actually a good question. We didn’t.
  The desire to create a country Israel came about in the 1800s, when Theodor Herzl looked at anti-semitism in Europe and concluded that Jews would never be accepted by countries or have any political power so the only way to get ahead in such a nationalistic world would be to make their own country. It was built on an anachronistic set of ideas; religion was tied to your citizenship of a country. Turkey represented European Muslims and UK/France/Germany represented Christians, and he concluded there was no way Jews could be considered equal citizens in Europe.
  Originally the plan was to buy land in Africa or South America and declare a new country there. It was a purely secular plan to build an ethnostate. The World Zionist Congress had a vote and they narrowly approved to build the country in British mandate Palestine, not for religious reasons but because the connection to Jerusalem would help motivate immigration and tourism. They almost had it in Uganda or Argentina or Madagascar.
  The holocaust merely accelerated the plan and gave a justification after the fact to build the country. Initially Israeli society didn’t like having holocaust survivors and they weren’t treated well, only today are they out on a pedestal and used as justification for their colonialism.
  
  Jews would never be accepted by countries
  Did he thought that they would be accepted by the local population?
- It was more “given up” rather than “freely given” to the Zionists. They were resolute invaders and ferocious terrorists. And once they tuned their sights from the local population to the British, the British fucked off real fast. Then did the paperwork.
- I'm no less ignorant than you are, but "returning home" isn't as easy as it sounds when your leaders and neighbors were at best complicit and at worst eager conspirators (excepting those who rebelled either openly or secretly) in your extermination. Jews have a rather long history of being...mistreated, for lack of a more appropriate term within reach, so the abstract idea of having a self-governed homeland where you can feel safe as a Jew seems to make some degree of sense in context.
  But because Zionism is generally practiced by nationalists and religious zealots, and because colonialism was (and evidently is) still considered a-ok by the global power brokers when all this started, the tone of the occupation became "we're taking your space because we deserve it and you don't" rather than "may we please share your space in mutual benefit for our safe refuge."
  
  Right... Like why TF wouldn't you want to leave

the Mayans missed it by like ... 15 years
- Idk. Seems like this was occurring in 2012 too.
  https://www.un.org/unispal/document/auto-insert-188596/
- no they were spot on. it just takes a while for the change to take effect in the outside world.

When are we going to talk about African wars?
- When the US starts being the primary funder of them.
  
  There isn’t any difference between American arms and israeli arms
- Talk about them nobody stopping you bt you don't care you just need a way to deflect from the current topic and genocide
- It's their little pet conflict, they don't care about anything else and arguably don't really care about gaza or palestine. Most probably don't even know the difference between the two.
  If you call out obvious iranian propaganda or do so much as hinting at "using women and children as human shields is bad", you are a zionist, genocide-apologist, blahblahblah.
  Calling out antisemitism, especially within the self-proclaimed political left, is another sure way to get some ad hominem insults and/or threats.
  That being said, your comment is still a straw man.

It's hard to find a more Nazi way of doing it. Never forget, Zionists signed the Haavara Agreement with Hitler. You can look up Hitler's quotes on Zionists to find that his problem with them was that *"It doesn't even enter their heads to build up a Jewish state in Palestine for the purpose of living there" *- that they weren't being imperial colonialist enough and were just all talk. It's sad to see the meaning of genocide twisted so much to use the genocide of the past to protect the genocide of the present. Hitler's problem with Jews in Germany is that they were staying in Germany, it was not with the Zionists who were trying to take over the reigns of Mandate Palestine.
Sort of what we are seeing now, radical far right groups sticking up for each other even when at face value ideologically they should be opposed - because it's not about the lie they are peddling, it's about forcing people out and conquering occupied territory to take their wealth and resources. Not that these far right leaders will ever admit it, but the shifting stream of excuses, justifications, and contradictions create the outline of what they've even lied to themselves about. They are not people of character.

The victim is now the abuser

that's a bit of hyperbole. Gaza is happening because the institutions were already rotten, and not the other way around
- Social rot causing systematic rot causing social rot?
  
  Somewhere Hari Seldon is laughing.
- It works both ways. Governments are bending over backwards to silence opposition to Israel, and that means abandoning the rule of law and supressing free speech. The rot was there, but the open corruption and the sheer quantity of lies puts it into overdrive. If not for Israel, Trump would not have been reelected.

Our imaginations have always fallen short with regard to World War III. The only thing anyone can visualize is total nuclear destruction, but this world definitely has another actual world war left in it where conventional forces fight it out across multiple fronts, largely through proxies but orchestrated by the major powers. The world economy will plunge into chaos for a decade or more. The political situation in every country around the world will turn to shit. Fascism will bloom and commit mass atrocities. Oh shit… that’s all already happening.

Is it? I don't even hear anything out of the Arab states. It should but I don't see much.
- Because America successfully turned most of the Middle East into US puppet states. There's a reason most of the region is ruled by autocratic regimes. The only Arabic-speaking country whose government is materially opposed to Israel now is Yemen.
- This war is of course a huge tragedy, but as someone who sees gaza war as a local conflict borderline affecting few cities, I can't help but chuckle how much lemmy ignores the largest country in the world waging war in Europe and only escalating by every month, while western countries can't seem to keep up in production. It's Russia who will break the world, not some conflict in middle east.
  EDIT: The average lemmy user claiming that russia is incapable of doing anything goes to show that you really should disregard what the average lemmy user says and rather read what experts and researchers say. The downvotes on this comment is a clear proof only few truly know what's going on right now. I would not even be surprised if the recent US weapon callback is related to this. I'm not exagggareting when I say that Russia is outproducing entire NATO in 2025. The EU just yesterday lifted debt limit to 17 countries purely to allow going into debt to raise defence spending across the EU (something that bankrupted soviets). Russia has changed it's stance on peace terms, so that goes out the window too. Even they know they can now win this war.
  https://www.businessinsider.com/russia-ammunition-production-nato-mark-rutte-2025-6
  
  Lol, calling Russia the largest country in the world is a strange way to increase the might of a faded superpower who can't deploy an army to win against a country much smaller than them.
  It is absolutely a big deal and most of Europe offers financial, military and humanitarian assistance above what you'll see on Lemmy. The difference is the genocide in Palestine is war crime after war crime. Sure, Russia commits and has committed war crimes, but even they follow most of the rules of war. Israel is genocidal. It's supported by their people. It's abhorrent.
  I think Israel is foolish. They are protected by their international support and not viable on their own. Trump is unpredictable and nationalistic. They could get left out in the cold, like USA did to Ukraine very easily. Netanyahu has is ear. As does Putin and the Saudis. In trumps case, it'll be what he can get. Israel have less to offer while requiring the funding the others don't.
  
  What? No one's ignoring Ukraine.
  
  The only way Russia can win is if Trump bails them out. Which is a possibility, but that would just be Trump breaking things.

It’s not “breaking the world” it’s literally showing the Israeli state for what it’s been all along, and israeli influence extends so far in the western culturescape that no one is able to actually speak the truth about it
- But that’s what the author is saying. The “post war liberal order” of the last 77 years had mostly been a success of coming together to say that there are lines that can’t be crossed.
  Now, at this point in the order’s timeline, those lines are being left so far in the rear view that they’re not visible anymore, while the empires that came to take down the holocaust are now cracking down on the people pointing this out. And critically, as pointed out later in the article, are taking notes for future wars.
  Factor in the right wing fascists rising to power all over the world who are flagrantly walking all over decency and inflicting violence/turning the systems on enemies without much of a peep…well, things for the future look to be heading down a seriously dangerous path.
  This isn’t business as usual. That is what they’re saying. They point out that this “established order” and international law have always been vulnerable to powerful actors moving the goalposts to serve and protect their interests. But this much drastic change in just a few years, specifically centered around Gaza is a horrific force—coupled with every other factor throughout the world— that seems to be upending any hopes for a decent future.

In repression of counter speech against genocide in almost all western countries to some degree their hand has been shown once again to be prioritizing order over law's rotting corpse.
- Not order. It's control and oppression, a tale as old as mankind.
  
  Control and oppression are a type of toxic order. Gamers call it Lawful Evil.

The next world war
Will have no rules

Ukraine lowers its head as nobody sees it with its hand up...
While I truely weep for Palestinians this is a large issue that is worldwide. Nobody gives a crap because it's utter chaos everywhere
- I would say the big distinction between Ukraine and Gaza is that in Ukraine there has been a meaningful (and enormously lucrative) project to arm locals in opposition to Russian invasion. It's been of dubious success, given how much territory they still lost. But its difficult to say that the Biden Era government (or even Trump Term 1) wasn't willing to shovel arms and mercenaries into Ukraine in an effort to cripple Russian advances.
  In Gaza, the Israel blockade has gone virtually unchecked - outside of a few salvos from Yemen and some allegations of support from Iran and Hezbollah. Americans are supporting the genociders not the victims. There is no Gaza military left to repeal an invasion nor is there any appetite for a Hamas resistance to repeal IDF advances. At this point, it's little more than a shooting gallery.
  There's a line of combat between Ukraine and Russia. There's nothing in Gaza. Just Israelis and their private security contractors kettling and massacring neighborhood after neighborhood, then flagging bulldozers to knock down the houses when they're done.

I'm pretty sure it's just Trump breaking the world order and eroding the freedom of Americans.
When the Israel-Hamas war is over do you really think everything is going to go back to normal in the US and the rest of the world?
- Myopic US take. The Israel lobby is all through the western world and has pushed almost every government into the corner of accepting this racist genocidal war lest they be labelled anti-Semitic.
  
  Nothing excuse their complicity, nothing
  
  I really don't understand where this idea comes from of a country with the 40th rank GDP having the pull to mastermind politics worldwide. For reference: their revenue is about the same as Apple, whose lobbying sees less success despite being more politically neutral.
  The reason they have international support is because it's convenient and their location + antagonism align with the geopolitics of a large group of states. Isreal is a dog on a leash, what we're seeing Trump do is give them unprecedented lead to genocide at will.
  Letting them go this far and long without tugging their collar back to peace talks is not the historical norm, no matter how hard you point at Biden. Did Biden take direct military action to support them? Has any US president?
  This Isreali lobbying is a boogeyman; Isreal could dissolve tomorrow and you would see another antagonist spring up in the region with international backing. People are just uncomfortable with their country being aligned with the bad guys of their own free will.
- Read the article. The most egregious violations occurred during the Biden administration. Biden is better at Trump as a whole, but on the Gaza issue, both have support for Israel locked in at 100%. People often fall for the marketing - Biden virtue signals while Trump vice signals. Biden made a few token show gestures towards Palestinian rights, and Trump gleefully celebrates his cruelty. But in terms of actual tangible support for Israel? Trump's record is a direct continuation of Biden's. The Biden admin for example were the first ones to propose the ethnic cleansing of Gaza. That isn't something Trump came up with - he just vice signaled with his stupid 'Gaza riviera' plan, while Biden's plan for ethnic cleansing was discussed quietly.
  
  Could you source the statement about biden's quiet discussion?
- The complicity of many national governments in this genocide, including my own (Canada), will be remembered with disdain.
- This is .world you cannot get banned for supporting genocide.

If we consider UN as being the main arbitrator on who gets to launch a war, then to mention a few instances....
1950: North Korea illegally attacks South Korea.
1956: Soviet Union illegally invades Hungary.
1956: Israel / France / UK illegally invade Egypt. All invaders withdraw after UN condemnation and international pressure.
1964: USA illegally escalates Vietnam War.
1967: Israel launches the Six-Day War, illegality debated.
1968: Soviet Union illegally invades Czechoslovakia.
1973: Egypt and Syria attack Israel.
1974: Turkey illegally invades Cyprus.
1978: Vietnam illegally invades Cambodia.
1979: Soviet Union illegally invades Afghanistan.
1982: Israel illegally invades Libanon.
1983: USA illegally invades Grenada.
1989: USA illegally invades Panama.
1990: Iraq illegally invades Kuwait. Got their ass kicked by UN-sanctioned forces though so that worked out fine.
1999: NATO illegally bombs Yugoslavia.
2003: US and UK illegally invade Iraq.
2008: Russia illegally invades Georgia.
2014: Russia illegally invades and annexes Crimea.
2015: Saudi-Arabia illegally invades Yemen.
2022: Russia illegally invades Ukraine.
I probably forgot a few. No ill meaning meant, just missing knowledge.
- You really have to do whataboutism on every post concerning Israel.
  1967: Israel launches the Six-Day War, illegality debated.
  Nice how you question the illegality of Israel doing war crimes.
  
  Hasbara bots are now on Lemmy 🥀
  
  Previous poster was not questioning it but quoting the UN as the authority. https://www.britannica.com/topic/United-Nations-Resolution-242
  
  I’m still not convinced about criticism of whataboutism being an actual defence. I’ve heard the argument that it doesn’t make the original criticism any less valid but to me it does. It’s more of a go fuck off together and be shit somewhere else rather than a let’s focus on this one point only purely because it was brought up before the other. And purely because it was brought up first there is not allowed to be any mention of any hypocrisy?
- Look at how you called them all illegsl except isrsel 6 day war thst was illegal no debate sbout it
  “he Egyptian Army concentrations in the Sinai approaches do not prove that Nasser was really about to attack us. We must be honest with ourselves. We decided to attack him. - Menachem Begin