Socialism is the actual teaching of Jesus
For all their "christianity", republicans in the US are pretty hypocritical.
Jesus actually teached that everybody deserves to get fed and housed. That everybody deserves healthcare. That people should care for other people in their community. That is essentially the core principles of socialism.
Religion isn’t about actually helping people. It’s used to control the masses with shame, guilt and the threat of eternal damnation. It’s used to abuse and fleece the weak and the poor.
People holding onto “that’s not what Jesus would do” are just in denial about the cult they participate in.
Jesus is just a tool used to dupe rubes. If you need a fictional character to tell you to act like a decent human being then you’re not a good person.
Harsh but true.
But a little besides the point OP is trying to make - which is about Jesus' teachings themselves, not the cult that grew up around it - as far as we can deduce what Jesus actually did and said of course. Which isn't much but enough to come to a similar conclusion as OP claims.
Which is why he had to be made an example of and executed. It took a few hundred years for his brand to be perverted into funding a gilded palace in Rome.
IMO it made sense in the times when enforcing the law was harder to do. But a lot of time has passed since then, religions (as in whole communities, priests and followers) somehow made it their point to not change much
Religion isn’t about actually helping people. It’s used to control the masses with shame, guilt and the threat of eternal damnation. It’s used to abuse and fleece the weak and the poor.
There are a lot of different religions and beliefs in the world, right? Christianity and similar religions are not the only ones that exist, and many religions originated from ancient human primitive tribes.
If you need a fictional character to tell you to act like a decent human being then you’re not a good person.
What happens when you need a real person to tell you to act like a "decent human being" like every human in existence today? Are we all by nature "evil" because we require third parties to dictate what "good" is?
threat of eternal damnation
And that's what a lot of people get wrong about christianity. Jesus literally said "everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die"
More than that, giving food and drink to the hungry and thirsty, welcoming strangers, clothing the naked, caring for the sick, and giving comfort to the imprisoned, is literally the same as doing those things for Jesus Christ, himself, from his perspective. And, moreover, those who do those things will earn their place in heaven, and those who fail to do those things will be eternally damned to hell. It's not subtextual. It's not ambiguous and up for interpretation. It says very clearly that Jesus separated those who are going to heaven and hell to either side and the distinction between the groups was how they treated "the least" of his brothers and sisters. Matthew 25:31-46.
So, bad news Christian Republicans. Might want to correct yourself now before it's too late.
It's also just invented stories, and the maga crowd knows that, they are not like in fear of damnation or anything.
Mega hypocrites though of course.
All of that is charity from latin caritas and it's independent to political/government systems.
Also you can be charitable and NOT go into Haven because you don't believe in Jesus. Actions are as important as faith.
And Jesus did reach down to the leper, but the leper was not cured, because his monthly deductables did not cover it.
"Get a job, hippy", proclaimed Peter.
From my purely anecdotal experience, the people who actually want to follow Jesus's teachings don't go to church. Says a lot.
go to church
And how many have read at least one testament? Reading is not rare anymore
Didn't go into so much detail with most people of faith I've met, but I know for a fact mum read both the Old and New Testaments and decided she didn't* (still getting used to it...) want to have anything to do with the Church's interpretations, because they focused on essentially anything other than empathy and being human.
On the other hand, grandma wasn't that big on the Bible, but went to church weekly (for as long as she could). She was also domineering, aggressive, two-faced, and manipulative. Also loved to visit the village witch (no, I'm not joking), which was... kinda' contradictory if one asks me, but nobody did, so that's that...
Matthew 25:35-40
35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’
37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’
40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’
It's also worth noting that parable of the sheep and the goats was a judgement of nations.
Ephesians 6:5-9
5 Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ. 6 Obey them not only to win their favor when their eye is on you, but as slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from your heart. 7 Serve wholeheartedly, as if you were serving the Lord, not people, 8 because you know that the Lord will reward each one for whatever good they do, whether they are slave or free.
9 And masters, treat your slaves in the same way. Do not threaten them, since you know that he who is both their Master and yours is in heaven, and there is no favoritism with him.
Yeah good stuff. All about equality and egalitarianism.
You can't claim to be socialist while condoning literal slavery. Sorry.
You are absolutely right. It isn't complicated. A fundamental principle from the teachings of Jesus is that everyone should share their "wealth" (i.e. food, housing, medical care, etc.) with those in need. No one should ever be hungry, homeless, or sick without treatment. It follows naturally from the idea of loving everyone, without exception.
I'm not going to argue the questions about whether Jesus was divine or even existed. I am simply talking about the philosophy that is presented as his by the Gospels. That is the core of Christianity, but it is ignored by a majority of those who call themselves Christians. The fact that it is difficult and calls for personal sacrifices is not an excuse. He never said that it would be easy.
I accept that Christian principles can be viewed as aspirational goals and not an absolute code of conduct, but that is not what we see in the would-be Christians. They have no interest in working toward those goals.
Roman historians wrote about Jesus (Tacitus), also the Jewish historian Flavius Josephus. We can argue about his divinity (I am a believer) but I don't think we can argue about his existence.
There were others but they are further in time so they may be quoting those two.
I also think the evidence that Jesus existed is compelling, but my point is that it doesn't matter when you're talking about the philosophy that is credited to him. Reading the Gospels makes it quite clear that a disturbingly large part of modern Christianity is in opposition to everything he stood for.
The early church was actually kinda communist, having all things in common.
And democratic, one man one vote.
But the man was the priest (or later the pope) and there was only one vote/voice at all.
/s joke
From a theological point of view, Jesus was indeed a socialist. However, he wasn't a socialist in a Marxist sense, he was a different kind of socialist. Christian socialism actually has a very interesting history that goes back quite back in time.
Exactly. There is a rich tradition of Christian socialism and Christian communism. Even the communist group that Marx and Engels joined up with practiced christian communism and utopian socialism before moving away to a more secular and materialist version. The Communist Manifesto marks this turning point well.
Of course, M&E argue that Christianity is a tool used to blunt the edge of revolutionary socialism and keep it back in line where it can't do any harm. Like the other forms of socialism (including that dreaded one) that are explicitly designed to recuperate the more radical ideas to a place where they can be more comfortably controlled by the ruling class.
No no no. I see where you went wrong, you were thinking about Jesus from the bible, people dont really believe in him anymore. The Jesus followed today is Supply-Side Jesus, I know it gets confusing since they are both named Jesus.
Jesus was middle eastern. Don't need to look further than that to find the hypocrisy.
Socrates, Plato and Diogenes where all opposed to the greek state while being great minds of their time. A culture does not define everyone's humane aspects of thinking, just most.
Pretty unlikely he was real. https://www.atheists.org/activism/resources/did-jesus-exist/
Why would you use atheists.org as a source for this? They clearly aren’t historians and would have a biased take.
The current consensus is there had to be a guy likely named Yeshua who lived in or around Galilee who was looking to reform Judaism. Reformers of Judaism were incredibly common after Rome conquered Israel. In fact the rabbinical Jewish movement, which is what “modern Judaism” is part of, was started by the Pharisees who are mentioned throughout the New Testament in negative terms (believed to be because they competed with Yeshua’s followers).
The guy you think of as Jesus never existed but the consensus seems to be that it would be difficult for multiple groups all sharing the same views to pop up around the mediterranean if Yeshua never existed. That doesn’t mean Christianity is the correct interpretation of those views only that a guy named Yeshua had a bunch of followers
The fact is we don’t have any reason to think he never existed. We have reason to doubt claims that are religious in nature but it is unlikely that the entire faith was fabricated by Paul/Saul.
I agree, but that's not very relevant to the comment you're replying to.
LOL at your downvotes. I went to Catholic school and was taught BY PRIESTS AND NUNS that Jesus probably wasn't one person but a composite of numerous roving preachers (a fad at the time). Oh, and early Christianity probably started as a mushroom cult. If the Catholics (Catholics!) could learn to apply reason to religion anyone can.
The early Church is recorded as living that way:
"44 And all that believed were together, and had all things common; 45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need. 46 ¶And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart, " ( Acts 2:44-46 KJV).
However, tearing a political philosophy away from its associated worldview leads to trouble.
This is one of the things I find strange about the political parties in the U.S. the Republican party, which seems to claim the majority of members who claim to be Christians, largely espouse a capitalist economic system. Capitalism is much more congruent with a Darwinist world view than a Christian one.
Meanwhile, the Democrat party, at least the more progressive wing, espouse more of a socialist system but seemingly oppose Christianity and claim a world view more congruent with a capitalist system.
Yeah that’s interesting. Though I do think the Bible is big enough and vague enough for either tribe to exploit. I’m convinced the Left could have sided with Jesus’s ways of life and been the Christian nation, while the right rejected it.
seemingly oppose Christianity
Christianity doesn't even believe in Christianity. Behind the scenes in Churches, it's bitter old people, angry at each other, shaking down patrons for cash, and selling peace to grieving people. Most Democrats want universal healthcare. They want, but are afraid of UBI, and would like it if they could keep their current advantage in the playing field, not becoming poorer while spreading change.
No, because socialism is when bad thing! /s obviously
Wait until the suckers learn that he doesn't want people to eat animals in the apocryphal writings. But that's just how Christianity works... Take what fits the bill (Emperor Constantine, Jerome of Stridon, anyone?).
Um, He fed people fish. Apocryphal writings are not in the cannon for a reason.
Christianity is incredibly easy to fake. Anyone can call themselves a Christian with little, if any, blowback. It's the whole 'sinner saved by grace' schtick - which is, essentially, "Yup, I'm a Christian but I don't really have to act like one."
People care about helping people.
Its had a billion different names throughout history and each of them has been or will be subverted into something bad by people who seek control.
Lot of people during history fought for socialism but they always ignore that part somehow.
For all their “christianity”, republicans in the US are pretty hypocritical
No, no, you were indoctrinated by people with agenda
Jesus was saying, and everyone was obeying, like a good person does
/s in case it's not clear
Do we really know what the real Jesus was like, what his teachings were, and that they are not just fairy tales created by someone? or changed by someone. I don't think there is/was much socialistic in his teachings.
No sense imagining a hypothetical Jesus, but if you go by what the bible says, Jesus said "it's easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom is heaven." He said sell all of your possessions and then follow me. The bible talks about how people in the church shared what they had in common. If someone had a need someone would sell their property and distribute it to those who needed it.
Of course they also thought Jesus was going to return soon, within their lifetimes, and bring a perfect world. Not wait over 2,000 years
The best records we have of Jesus' teachings are the gospel books that are typically referenced. And there are enough references to Jesus of Nazareth in other texts to suggest this is what he was like and taught.
Jesus' teachings on government and social structures are nuanced and difficult to apply to our human structures, because he proposed a government ruled by a perfectly good, benevolent monarch (which, in theory, is a great system if you can guarantee the monarch is really perfectly good). He preached a lot about "the kingdom of God" and contrasted it to how we do things on earth. So the point was never to provide a blueprint of how we should do government, but that there was something above all earthly governments that superceded it all.
Unfortunately, people have used those teachings in very bad ways (the same reasoning that the religious leaders used to kill Jesus). All of that to say--there are a lot of congregations that have more in common with the Pharisees than the early church.
It is not really socialism since it is still based on a religious supernatural hierarchy and revelation and not any actual political theories as to how to achieve this without magic, but read literally, it is definitely closer to socialism than whatever basically all of the existing Christian denominations got out of it (with a few notable but not very popular exceptions).
One of Marx’s biggest inspirations was the teachings of Jesus.
Jesus also hated the Nicolaitans. And if you want socialism without a revolution, which is also not OK, you need yo go the Nicolaitan way.
What is the Nicolaitan way? Wikipedia is quite short on it.
they know christianity is bullshit but it's great for getting votes
The New Testament has been around for a couple of thousand years. The concept of socialism has only been around for less than 200.
I wonder, if religion survives for another thousand years, what will people then say Jesus taught regarding various other isms that have yet to be constructed.
I’m not religious. But your point doesn’t make sense. Being around X number of years doesn’t contradict with the possibility of one idea being a part of the other. I guess that’s what the user is trying to say, but I’m not sure how factual it is.
Wha wha WHAAAAAAAAT??!
NOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!
And then Jesus said:
"Thou hast nothing to lose but thy chains! Take all the tools from those that dare to enslave thee and build thy own communities where all of you equally decide what to do!"
I’ve never heard this one before but it’s on the internet so Jesus must have said it. I will live my life by it.
If only t said anything about democracy instead of divine rights of kings, some of it might have been implemented.
Jesus literally REFUSED to be dragged into ideological politics of his time (John 6:10-15)
He even defied those who tried to put him to test and force a political statement come from him against the current political leader, the Caesar, by trying to have him a forced position on taxes (Mark 12:13-17)
All this makes sense, as he himself said about himself and his followers that they are not part of this world (John 15:19)
He LITERALLY made his teaching revolve around god’s kingdom, not any human ideology (Matthew 6:9, 10)
I mean FUCK, even Satan himself offered him to be the ruler of the whole FUCKING world and he rejected it flat out (John 14:30)
He did care about people, and alleviated the physical suffering of many, but he made clear his and his followers priority should be preaching and teaching God’s word (Mark 1:32-38)
And why wouldn’t he, after all, part of his teachings are that all the world governments and ideologies are to be destroyed. (Revelation 16:14) Every. Single. one.
Yes, including socialism.
So anyone using his teachings to attack whoever and linking him to your ideology, calling him a representative of brand "X" collectivism, should get down from any high horse they think they are, it’s not doing you or them any favor and they clearly don’t know what they are talking about.
Case in point, people talking in here about a hell existing in the bible when there is none. That’s basically all it takes
I think the main point here is not to actually claim that Jesus inspired Marx or something like that, but to counter all the fascists and turbocapitalists using Jesus's name to justify the horrific things they are doing.
Pretty hard to argue against Jesus not influencing literally everyone in the European continent, even Engels and Marx.
It sounds like you're using "pay your taxes" to argue that it's ok by Jesus if you vote for the Republican party, which I think is messed up because he said so much about caring for others.
But did Jesus proscribe government welfare programs? It seems to be that the basis for "Jesus was a socialist", is based on his teachings on charity. But this can be done by personal charity, and infact those are the examples he gave. Nowhere in the Bible does it say "you should vote for needs-based welfare programs".
bad look for socialism honestly
Socialism is an economic and political philosophy encompassing diverse economic and social systems characterised by social ownership of the means of production, as opposed to private ownership.
Socialist Jesus is
I always think of Jesus as a Buddhist Jew.
Jesus also teached to devote live to a fictional character and to respect judaism traditions. And in the apostols carts there're homophobic rants.
That's not socialist in my book.
And in the apostols carts there’s homophobic rants.
Saulus/Paulus. Yeah it all went downhill pretty quickly.
Aristotle discussed some ideas central capitalism. Why don’t we start a new cult around him and his ideas? We could eventually use the cult to exploit vulnerable individuals, brainwash innocent people, commit human rights violations, incite people into committing hate crimes, start wars and promote chaos and suffering in general.
Teached -> taught
The problem was that the church needed to reach out to the nobles to spread, so promising wealth became a sticking point
There are evangelical thought leaders that preach the opposite. They say liberals are wrong about all of that.
And people believe up is down.
Jaques Elul was an interesting man. His book about Christianity and Anarchy is a must if you want to continue unrolling this thoughts
No, but it shows how little progress we did as humanity for the last 2000 years
Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and unto God the things that are God's
That's pro dictatorship in perpetuity, aka fascism.
Jesus wants people to help each other voluntarily and not by the power of the state.
If anything socialism is Christianism since that's what Jesus taught, not socialism.
Anyway Pope Leo XIII explained it better in the Rerum novarum (distributism not socialism), maybe an Anarchist (on Earth) because there is no ruler but Him, no government but God's.
Lol it's like reading fan fiction
They say the same thing about socialism.
Jesus was an authoritarian. He believed there should be one being with ultimate power and control who everyone else should obey unquestioningly.
He believed that this being was better than every living person. That any person who disobeyed the ruler should be tortured. That we are only alive, only well, only happy, if the ruler permits it.
That any person who disobeyed the ruler should be tortured.
If this is about hell, I don't think Jesus believed in hell, at least not as we know it. He also did definitely teach about erasing the social hierarchy, at least among humans. So he was a theocrat, sure, but he wasn't only a theocrat.
Matthew 25:41
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels."
It's part of a parable, but if we disregard parables then "jesus' teachings" becomes a small pamphlet.
But I'd be keen to hear where jesus advocated for abolishing human hierarchy. Nothing comes to mind immediately outside Paul's letters.
He was a cult leader opposing status quo in an authoritarian empire. It's kind of a tough position, I imagine he used whatever was practical and contradicted himself a lot.
The core part of what he preached was very progressive for the time and place. Later, as it usually goes, it got coopted and lost 98% of its bite (imo)
Which part of status quo did he oppose? Personal wealth, yes, but that tends to be a common cult leader position. That followers should give everything to the cause.
Other than that Jesus commanded to render unto ceaser what belongs to ceaser.
Socalism is about owning a share of your workplace. Its got nothing to do with free healthcare or caring for the community
Peace and love are not in man's nature, regardless if you are a Christian or a Socialist, or both. "My god will fuck you up if I don't get my money!". That is the twist on capitalism.
Peace and love are not in man’s nature
That's bullshit. Capitalism is what corrupts "man's nature," and it isn't some kind of inherent thing to humanity.
You may be right.
No. Socialism is a form of government that relies on forced redistribution, which is not something Jesus ever advocated for or practiced. He DID encourage people to share their wealth and take care of the poor, yes, but he never took anything by force in order to give it to them, and he never told people to do so either.
Socialism is an economic theory second to the form of government. IOW, you can have authoritarian + socialism, authoritarian + capitalist, or whatever combination might exist, like Democratic + socialism, or social policy.
All systems rely on forced redistribution in some form unless it’s anarchy.
Wait, am I not forced to pay taxes? And isn't any progressive tax by definition redistribution? United States confirmed as socialist, you heard it here first!
Yes, progressive taxation is a feature of socialist government.