Trump vows to deport millions. Builders say it would drain their crews and drive up home costs.
Trump vows to deport millions. Builders say it would drain their crews and drive up home costs.
While some contractors dismiss the plan as political rhetoric, many say they can’t afford to lose more people from an aging, immigrant-dependent workforce still short of nearly 400,000 people.
While some contractors dismiss the plan as political rhetoric, many say they can’t afford to lose more people from an aging, immigrant-dependent workforce still short of nearly 400,000 people.
Both presidential candidates promise to build more homes. One promises to deport hundreds of thousands of people who build them.
Former President Donald Trump's pledge to "launch the largest deportation operation in the history of our country" would hamstring construction firms already facing labor shortages and push record home prices higher, say industry leaders, contractors and economists.
"It would be detrimental to the construction industry and our labor supply and exacerbate our housing affordability problems," said Jim Tobin, CEO of the National Association of Home Builders. The trade group considers foreign-born workers, regardless of legal status, "a vital and flexible source of labor" to builders, estimating they fill 30% of trade jobs like carpentry, plastering, masonry and electrical roles.
The trade group considers foreign-born workers, regardless of legal status, “a vital and flexible source of labor”
oh yea, republicans will spend all day whining about "illegals" but not one nanosecond even talking about the CEOs who hire those illegals, giving them a reason to come here in the first place
I’ve made this observation for some time now. Isn’t funny how the industries which hire illegal immigrants are skewed conservative ownership-wise? Construction, roofing, agriculture, trucking, hotels. My belief is that in addition to exploiting division and fear, they want to keep these workers marginalized so they can take advantage of them. Being able to dodge OSHA, medical comp, minimum wage, payroll tax, and so on are all Republican dreams.
There have been sections of the border which enacted tough enough policies and technology to actually keep out illegal immigrants. Over time, it cratered the local economies, to the point that politicians got involved and fixed the border patrols back to the insecure way, so that everyone could have a big pool of desperate, vulnerable farm workers again.
Trump. Trump hires illegals too while removed about them
I seem to remember (but am too lazy to look up) something about Trump using undocumented Polish laborers on a building project, providing no PPE, paid them sub-minimum wage, no overtime. Reported the laborers to INS so they would be deported to avoid getting sued.
Yeah, first year of that sleezey presidency they had position postings for his vineyard looking for migrant workers
Home builders are greasy as shit but I didn't expect them to say the quiet part out loud.
I used to write project maintenance software for a home builder. Right before I left that gig, the company's owner got busted banging his son's wife. Just a little anecdote about a bit of loathsomeness I've never encountered anywhere else.
The profit margins on this business were just insane. Like, houses cost between $30 and $40 grand to build (with corners cut in all sorts of ridiculous ways) and sold for $125 to $150 grand.
Here's the thing these fucking racist shitbags are not telling you. If the country the illegal immigrants came from won't take them back then the sending country can do shit all to make them. That teams no deportation. No deportation means indefinite detention. Indefinite detention means free labor. I harbor no illusions that this hasn't been the plan from the start.
The world is at a tipping point. Do we backslide into slavery and genocide, or do we stand against it? It's not looking good. I, for one, never thought I would see a time when Americans would so blindly goose-step their way into fascism.
Umm you don't have to take back your citizens? Are you sure?
I read a great legal comment once about how revoking citizenship sounds cool but is really bad for pretty much exactly this reason. You're left in this weird legal limbo with no country to go to (in that case to face criminal legal process).
From a German perspective you're almost at the end of your slide.
I'd never thought I'd live (long) after ww2 and experience a similar thing elsewhere during my lifetime. Yet here we are.
Even if Trump doesn't win (or especially - not meaning he should, though) I assume very bad things coming.
Issues have been ignored for far too long.
That’s because these anti immigrant views aren’t supported by data, or logic, or common sense. It’s not like Americans are lining up to do the jobs immigrants are taking. The US can’t function as a society today without those immigrants. But the right just wants to coddle its racist base with “brown man bad”.
Americans aren’t lining up to do these jobs at low wages, without proper worker protections. Creating a society that depends on a lower tier of people that have fewer rights is seriously fucked up and is not something we should be embracing.
Siding with the rich business owners who are taking advantage of illegal immigrants is extra weird.
Industrial facilities, particularly in the food processing industry generally have decent wages and worker protections (safety does however vary wildly from plant to plant) but still rely on immigrant labor because those are often the only people willing to work these jobs, so they end up being the only workplaces that cater to hiring immigrants by having the knowledge of how to legally hire a non-citizen or just having Spanish language documentation and translators on hand.
I know this because I currently manage some databases for a contract industrial cleaning company, so I've seen the hard data. It's not a challenge of pay and benefits, but a challenge of "who's willing to work third shift cleaning cow guts off of a factory floor for $20-25/hr in bumblefuck Kansas?" And the answer is simply people who don't have better options, and they're usually either immigrants or felons. The work itself sucks donkeyballs (and would literally if it's a plant processing donkey meat) so nobody wants to do it
Its also why, if they finish "rounding up" people to deport, they will scapegoat more people to round up to explain why the economy is so broken
Surely we can acknowledge the difference between a person who came to the country legally and someone who illegally crossed the border. It’s not racist to want a functioning border. A huge number of people voting for Trump are immigrants from Latin America themselves, and even they don’t want people illegally entering the country.
This is proof they don't understand the endgame here. The only (legal) type of slavery left in the United States is prisoner labour. It is not a coincidence that the right wants to make so many things criminal. It's also not a coincidence they want to keep poor people desperate because it makes them more likely to commit crime. It's not a coincidence they support minimum sentences.
More crime, more free labour, more for profit prisons selling services.....
This is exactly what I've been thinking lately. And on top of already existing laws, make new ones that criminalize currently normal things. Hell, the South enacted new laws after slavery ended and only applied them against Black Americans. Why stop there, why not increase penalties for certain crimes from misdemeanors to felonies and make 3 felony convictions mean a life sentence?
The only part I disagree with is the for profit prisons part. 8% of prisoners are in private prisons which is 8% too many, but 92% are in publicly funded and operated prisons. And those publicly operated prisons sell the services of their trapped slave labor for so many more things than stamping license plates or road work. Not only do they fight fires and clean up after natural disasters, they also make kit (armor, helmets) for the armed forces, they pick crops, they manufacture white goods (washing machines, refrigerators)(I can't find a link specifically mentioning appliances and I'll update this it I find one), and so much more. Shoot, some cities' budgets would be blown up if not for the availability of publicly held prison slaves.
8% now. 20 years ago, it was a third of that. If there is profit to be made, profit will be made. It's also just one small factor in an extremely shitty whole.
The fact prison labour exists at all is an issue. If prisoners truly benefited from it, like a fair wage plus every day reducing their sentence, then I could hold my nose, but as is. Slavery.
Wow, that is pretty dark. If you take that to its logical conclusion, you could even turn parking fines into a slave sentence.
It already can.
There are some places where an inability to pay fines, can result in a warrant and imprisonment.
We can and we have for similar crimes. Loitering is a crime only for the poor, and then we send the homeless into camps and jails.
You owned a plant that was previously fine to own? Straight to jail, no questions asked.
Well if they can keep income inequality growing, there’s a big pool of wage slaves to draw from with much better optics.
And then they turn around and call themselves the party of Lincoln.
They did that in UK. Brexit worked out perfectly, and everyone lived happily ever after. Oh wait… Wrong story. It was a total dumpster fire and now labor shortage is crippling various industries.
It was a bit different. Brexit wasn't hiring workers for $14/hour because legal residents would be doing the job for $25/hour.
Besides that, we don't need more houses being built so much as we need a hard cap on any entity owning more than a few rental houses.
At the moment, they have trouble filling positions in restaurants and hospitals, because locals aren’t interested in working very hard for hardly any money. Also, all the Polish lorry drivers would need to be replaced by local UK residents, which appears to be harder than expected. (insert pikachu meme here)
The ONY REASON why immigrant labour is needed is because too much of the profits flow to the Parasite Class at the top.
It used to be that America could build affordable family homes for decent-sized families using well-paid American citizens. This was possible because those Americans were actually paid well enough to afford homes of their own; most of the value of their labour actually came back to them. Plus, most building materials weren’t beset by Greedflation and the need to keep obscene amounts of wealth flowing into pockets that were already overstuffed without more wealth than the person could spend in 100 lifetimes.
America could return to that time, where even the lowest-paid workers make enough to be within a stone’s throw of affording their own home. All it takes is a political leader willing to do the politically painful job of taxing the fuck out of the Parasite Class - including treating any loans taken out using stocks as collateral as “income” to be taxed, regardless of the destination of those funds.
That, plus a metric arseload of other things such as making corporate ownership of homes illegal and making “investor ownership” of homes beyond about 3-5 homes similarly illegal. Because not only do these parasites suck up the supply of homes, preventing renters from getting off the rental market, but they are also the primary players jacking up rents to unaffordable levels, seeking to squeeze every possible dollar out of hard-working Americans. Let these parasites find a real job if they want to continue earning money.
That's a problem across all types of business.
If you are cutting wages or laying off people, there is less overall ability to pay for things. You're basically cutting your customers ability to pay.
Even if your employees aren't your target market, they probably buy stuff from the people who are your customers.
This psychotic race to the bottom among business owners is just shooting yourself in the foot with extra steps.
All it takes is a political leader willing to do the politically painful job of taxing the fuck out of the Parasite Class
I don't think it works that way.
I'm not trying to say that would be a bad thing, it would be great. I think, though, that what really has to happen is strong unions fighting for their fair share.
For as long as people are looking to elect "the leaders" to fix things, things are going to stay unfixed. As soon as they take for themselves the political and economic power, within structures of power that are not political parties, they can have a real seat at the table, instead of finally finding someone else to send on a voyage to the great white father to come back to them with the right caliber of benefits secured.
It's been happening, the last few years. It's grand. And obviously, not having political leaders who want to return us to the days of feudalism or Nazi Germany as enforced with terrifying modern technology would be a nice boost to being able to get that done. But I think it has to come from unions and citizen activism in order to really come true in the right way. That's how it happened back when things really were okay in the country.
I’m not trying to say that would be a bad thing, it would be great. I think, though, that what really has to happen is strong unions fighting for their fair share.
Taxing the fuck out of the parasite class would diminish their ability to crush unions.
Why not pay builders a fair wage then?
It's certainly not labour costs driving up house prices.
Not always about the wage. You could pay 200k per year and still have trouble finding people willing to climb up on a roof day in and day out.
Especially if they find out that roofer is the fourth-most dangerous job in the U.S.
https://www.ishn.com/articles/112748-top-25-most-dangerous-jobs-in-the-united-states
Incidentally, police officer is ranked at 22. Well below garbage collectors (5), delivery drivers (7), or agricultural workers (11).
The way I see it, there's two options:
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Pay people more. 300k, 400k, 500k, whatever it takes. Surely there's a number that people would feel is worth the risk. The obvious downside is that increases the cost of construction.
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Make the process of roofing safer - invent new safety gear or safety practices, automation equipment that can be operated from the ground, introduce legislation that encourages those practices or subsidizes the new equipment. The obvious downside is this requires upfront investment and cooperation between government and industry.
Either way, the current practice of "throw cheap immigrant labor at it until it goes away" is not tenable.
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The work they do fucking sucks regardless of the pay.
during the 2016 election cycle, the national association of home builders pac gave $361,500 to democrat campaigns and $1,820,000 to republicans (83.4%).
for the current election (reported so far), they are even more unbalanced at 85.9% republican.
remind me again, mr tobin, which political party wants to deport your 'vital' workers?
Pretty much.
I walked by a construction site when I lived in California, I heard everyone speaking Spanish.
I walk by a construction site now that I live in Indiana and I hear... everyone speaking Spanish.
I'm guessing that at least some of them aren't citizens.
Anytime you come across someone shitting on immigration ask them who built their house.
I've been saying this for years, the American dream is subsidized by cheap labor from South of the border. Without them we would be doing far worse
Not to mention illegal immigrants are half as likely to commit crime as American citizens
Don't need to be a citizen to pass eVerify. I'm working with six natural born citizens, one naturalized citizen, three green card holders, three work visa holders and a "dreamer"
We also wouldn't have, you know, food, since agriculture and meat-packing are heavily dependent on undocumented immigrants and almost every kitchen in every restaurant in the country is staffed with undocumented immigrants. I want to think that the importance of food and housing would make Republicans not actually do this, but you never know with these crazy fuckwits. Perhaps they think child and prison labor would make an adequate replacement.
Almost all trump related policies will drive up costs for the consumer. He's only worried about lining the pockets of his rich friends, not making daily life for the average family more affordable
Translation: Builders would rather go broke than pay anyone a living wage.
The idea has also drawn skepticism on logistical grounds, with some analysts saying its costs would be “astronomical.”
This is like being skeptical that Nazi Germany would send people to death camps because it would be too expensive.
Bryan Dunn, an-Arizona based senior vice president at Big-D Construction, a major Southwest firm, called “the idea that they could actually move that many people” out of the country “almost laughable.”
Societies have been able to move millions of people around since they developed railway systems.
What's almost laughable is the state of denial people are in.
Last year, the state’s Republican governor, Ron DeSantis, enacted a series of restrictions and penalties to deter the employment of undocumented workers. Many immigrant workers hastily left the state even before the policies took effect, with social media videos showing some construction sites sitting empty.
This is the best case scenario in theory. Immigrants would flee to safety before the US government could harm them. However, in practice, where can they go? Many people already come here because their home countries are too dangerous for them.
This gets to a broader point. I've seen a lot of discussion in the past about trying to flee the country if things go wrong. There isn't going to be anywhere to flee to that's any safer if the US becomes a christo-fascist dictatorship. The EU is going to have to fend for itself against Russia. Japan, South Korea, and Taiwan will be on their own. Unrest in North America, South America, Africa and Asia will only get worse. We are seeing a global rise of fascism along with dictatorships becoming bolder and more willing to challenge the international order. Anyway we slice it, the only good outcomes involve fascists staying out of power.
People simply don't care. The amount of times people talk about fleeing the country vs even changing their local government is completely out of whack. People don't try, expect to move somewhere else and not try and not have their problems follow them.
People simply don’t care. The amount of times people talk about fleeing the country vs even changing their local government is completely out of whack. People don’t try,
People have an instinctual flight or fight response to danger. And it's rational for an individual to consider flight in the face of the most powerful military in the world. Discussions about safety are important. Most discussions I've seen qualify the need to flee based on Trump taking power. Most of the people who participate in them are explicit in their intentions to vote for Kamala and the Democratic Party in general.
I for one would like to see more discussion about changing governments. However the issue is less a lack of caring or lack of trying.
expect to move somewhere else and not try and not have their problems follow them.
It's more as this gets to, a lack of perspective. People are thinking in terms of their own self-interest. Specifically themselves and the people they care about in their immediate social spheres. This is human behavior in a nut shell. People are not considering the broader context, in part because we've never had fascism at a global scale before. Even in WWII there were limits to the reach of fascist nation states, some continents saw little to no direct conflict at home.
What we are seeing now is unprecedented in history. If the US becomes a christo-fascist dictatorship we are going to see the world completely divided into sphere's of influence. Dictatorships will become completely unchecked as the US switches from maintaining the world order to expanding it's sphere of influence in the western hemisphere. A war with Mexico is not out of the question in this scenario. Neither is Canada falling to it's own far right.
The rise of the far-right isn't unique to the US, it's been happening in India with Modi, Milei in Argentina, and in the Philippines with Bongbong Marcos. The far right is taking power and entrenching themselves all over the world. Modi and friends in India are buying news outlets to keep them toeing the party line and spewing propaganda. But unless a person is a political news junkie they can easily miss all of this broader context. People aren't being informed about the global rise of fascism, so they aren't discussing strategies that reflect that.
it doesnt matter. even if trump get elected and all those predicted bad things happen, republicans have no hesitate to spin those onto some leftist/wokish things.
He knows this. The goal of the billionaires is to completely destabilize the economy, blame it on Biden and take power by force with Trump as the mouth piece. Buy guns, buy ammo, buy bolt cutters.
By saying that, aren't contractors admitting that they're doing something illegal, and that undocumented workers are also prone to abuse and lower pay?
A lot of farmers use farm hands from Mexico with permits and a form of green card that allows them to get paid in American dollars during work seasons to bring back home, and get a path towards American citizenship than if they just entered the country with a passport or applied directly for a visa.
I don't know if a lot of contractors do the same thing, but I wouldn't be shocked. The labor is cheap and it kinda looks good for the camera. Adam Raguesa, a YouTube chef, has a good video on how farmers in the modern era grow the crops we eat on the table every day.
“Will somebody think of the companies that create the illegal immigration problem in the first place” is the worst take possible in all this.
Drive up
home pricesTrump's property values.I'll be so glad when this election is over and he can just lose the rest of his criminal cases and get sentenced, or have his final Big Mac Attack and dodge justice forever.
I’ll be so glad when this election is over and he can just lose the rest of his criminal cases and get sentenced
As though there's any real interest in anything that would result in actual consequences.
If you want an economy where every citizen has a chance to be middle class, you have to find some other source of labor to do working class jobs. That's why we shouldn't even want American citizens to do these jobs. Bring in immigrants that get paid well relative to where they came from to do that stuff and send our citizens to school and do middle class work. It's a win-win for all involved.
That's not even mentioning our problem with an aging population that requires immigration to sustain social programs.
If you want an economy where every citizen has a chance to be middle class, you have to find some other source of labor to do working class jobs.
Or labour jobs could pay middle class wages, like they did a couple of generations ago.
I’m sure he would find some way to profit off of the “driving up home costs” aspect of this.
We should be building apartments, stop building unscalable housing
Orrrr how about everyone has the freedom to live in the dwelling of their choice that they can afford .
Sure, if you stop externalizing all the costs that let them afford it.
his vows are no more meaningful than the clergy's vows of celibacy
The right wing listened to Milton Friedman talk about illegal immigration and went 'yeah!', missing the point entirely.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zWNko6ZSAzg
It's not wrong, but it's missing the level of danger involved by several orders of magnitude.
Everything to maximize profits. and one should examine the US agricultural sector that relies heavily on cheap illegal labor.
And then the response from the democratic candidate ends up being "Harris vows to deport Trump. Builders say it would increase their crews and drive down home costs."
You mean to tell me that a real estate investor would do something that would drive up housing costs? You mean to tell me that a guy who doesn't pay his workers doesn't give a shit about people who work for a living?
Yeah please don't toss out the underclass we all caush to have nice things.
Our economy depends on a base of low cost labor that used to be from kids or young people. It's almost like Democrats have decided to fill that void with immigrants while Republicans are trying to get back to the low cost labor being from having more kids. It makes sense if your goal is to keep the machine running the way it was designed, or at least how it evolved to operate. Social security, insurance, fast food, service industries, construction would all need overhaul to function without low cost labor being their base. Seems like you could reduce consumerism in general to compensate for the reduced low income work force, but that would hurt the economic numbers and cause an overall contraction in the stock market. Tough pills to swallow for everyone who has accumulated any significant amount of wealth in this system.
Isn't one of the arguments for raising minimum wage that higher incomes will result in more consumption and social program contribution?
Pay people more, less need for social services and collect more in taxes. Reduces government expenses and raise revenue. More money to spend on infrastructure. This is without fixing tax code so mega wealthy and corporations pay their fair share.
Illegal immigrants are being paid outside of the system and raising minimum wage only increases demand for employing more of them, continuing exploitation of them. You can make an argument for minimum wage increases, but it doesn't benefit illegal immigrants.
Conservatives have always been about creating and maintaining have exploitable underclass. First it was owned slaves, then prisoner slaves, than "illegal" immigrants.
Yeah.. IM no fan of trump but the reason housing is so expensive has nothing to do with needing more houses.