Dutch woman, 29, granted euthanasia approval on grounds of mental suffering
Dutch woman, 29, granted euthanasia approval on grounds of mental suffering
Zoraya ter Beek, who has chronic depression, anxiety, trauma and unspecified personality disorder, expected to end her life soon
“People think that when you’re mentally ill, you can’t think straight, which is insulting,” she told the Guardian. “I understand the fears that some disabled people have about assisted dying, and worries about people being under pressure to die... But in the Netherlands, we’ve had this law for more than 20 years. There are really strict rules, and it’s really safe.”
She embarked on intensive treatments, including talking therapies, medication and more than 30 sessions of electroconvulsive therapy (ECT). “In therapy, I learned a lot about myself and coping mechanisms, but it didn’t fix the main issues. At the beginning of treatment, you start out hopeful. I thought I’d get better. But the longer the treatment goes on, you start losing hope.”
After 10 years, there was “nothing left” in terms of treatment. "I’ve never hesitated about my decision. I have felt guilt – I have a partner, family, friends and I’m not blind to their pain. And I’ve felt scared. But I’m absolutely determined to go through with it.
Honestly and genuinely, I'm glad to see all that she has put into this decision and glad the state is allowing it. Now she doesn't need to cause further pain to others through a traumatic suicide and she can gain the peace she's been longing for.
Each day, so many lives are snuffed out of existence without a second thought. She has given this an incredible amount of thought, time, and work.
Rest in peace, Zoraya. 💜
P. S. There's thousands of live today that want to live. They don't want to die. And yet their lives are taken away in an instant. Perhaps we should focus on saving them rather than making someone like Zoraya feel even worse.
Life's one big experiment anyway.... There is no peace.
I can't understand why so many people are against someone dying with dignity. This is a form of harm reduction for not just the patient, but also their loved ones, and society in general.
Nobody wants to see their loved ones suffer endlessly or needlessly, and this is also a whole lot less traumatic than people committing suicide. Nobody wants the last memory of their loved ones to be the scene of their (potentially messy) suicide.
And that's not to mention the trauma inflicted on bystanders for some of the more public suicide methods (not to mention that jumping to your death or intentionally walking into/driving into traffic has a decent chance of physically injuring or killing said bystanders).
If this process is undertaken with care and compassion, it's far less likely to be traumatizing to all involved. And it prevents "spur of the moment" decisions, like many successful suicides are.
You don’t want people jumping in front of a train, but what do you think would happen if this concept were fully embraced by the American for-profit insurance industry? I’m imagining taking my mom to a doctor’s appointment for an expensive treatment and finding tasteful brochures for dying with dignity helpfully placed around the office.
I'm absolutely worried this will get taken advantage of in the US' hellscape that is their healthcare system, but that doesn't mean the concept is without merit.
It's like arguing that cars should not be available for purchase because someone might use one irresponsibly, while forgetting their utility outside of abuse.
In a healthcare system that optimizes outcome instead of profit, having the option to allow someone to choose to end their suffering should not be considered a bad thing.
You haven't seen all the hospice brochures? You don't even have to imagine - it's like the P.C. version of assisted suicide for old people.
Nobody wants to see their loved ones suffer endlessly or needlessly, and this is also a whole lot less traumatic than people committing suicide.
This is people committing suicide, though.
And it prevents "spur of the moment" decisions, like many successful suicides are.
It may prevent some, but at least some of the ones experiencing acute issues will still go for the immediate option. The bureaucracy of it will add a layer that I suspect will deter some. If it takes months or years, people are just going to find their own way.
I'm not suggesting that we just help any person right off the street. I think the government has duty of care once they are involved. I'm just saying the reality is that many will still choose not to take this alternative path.
Imagine thinking your life belongs to you, and then having to get permission to end it without suffering
There are other options other than this one that requires permission. The article mentions her reasons to choose this method.
From the article:
She had thought about taking her own life but the violent death by suicide of a schoolfriend and its impact on the girl’s family deterred her.
Whether we agree with her or not, it's her decision.
Jumping off bridges is free, no?
Clearly, this is about a more complex social issue/concern.
I think it's technically illegal in most countries (suicide I mean, not specifically the bridge variety).
/s
This is the best "treatment" a capitalist shithole can give for mental health.
We live in a dystopia
Even in a utopia, some people wouldn't want to live anymore. And it should be their legal right to end their lives painlessly at the time of their choosing.
It's more profitable for the capitalists.
You think a communist doctor could fix her? They were out of posible treatments, this isn’t about money.
I swear to god, if the aliens flew by and nuked half of the globe, you fuckers would rebuild society and mass media for the sole purpose of blaming capitalism.
What are you calling a capitalist shithole exactly? The Netherlands?
They did sort of invent it.
I'd say yes. Because it is.
Shithole no, capitalist very much so.
This. Is. Awesome.
Good on her; for doing whatever was reasonable. For making an informed decision. For following the approved methods. And for sticking it out.
We "put down" pets when their suffering is too much, why can't we let people make that same decision for themselves? Luckily the Dutch can.
I hope assisted suicide becomes more common. For everyone. Experience of conscious beings is the most important thing for me. But governments view people as manpower which is depressing.
Suicide isn't "awesome," and "good on her for sticking it out" in the context of suicide would pass as ironic edgelord humor 20 years ago on 4chan.
It's terrifying that the exact same action, when done in a way that's "clean" and legal makes people say things like that that presumably nobody would say otherwise. Setting up a legal pathway for suicide doesn't change what it is.
Setting up a legal pathway for suicide helps people maintain agency and also allows for those with curable conditions to take the time to seek the help they really need thanks to the ample medical oversight.
I don't think that it's awesome. Having read the article, I think that she has full capacity to make the decision and am happy that she is doing so in a medically supported way. Botched suicide attempts can cause devastating disabilities. And I always hate when a family member finds the body of someone who died by suicide.
It isn't awesome that her life is so miserable that, even though she has spent decades exhausting all medical treatment options, she still wants to die. What is awesome is that there is a comprehensive and humane way for her to end her suffering that assures this isn't a rash decision, gives her loved ones a time frame to come to terms with it, and provides a situation where they do not have to deal with the aftermath of doing it herself.
Believe it or not, there are a lot of people out there who's lives are nothing but pain and suffering. Pain and suffering despite seeking out all possible means to relieve themselves of this pain, and finding that none exist. Pain that isn't going to end, and not having a life worth living to look forward to. There are also a lot of people out there that have loved these people and realized that, though it hurts them, the suffering the person they love is going through is far worse, and will not get better. Sometimes it is more selfish to demand someone not end their life than it is for them to do so.
You clearly have not actually been in this position, even if you have been suicidal before. Maybe you should admit that you don't know everything about this, and let people have a humane way to stop their suffering.
I disagree with her decision for a few reasons but I’ll defend her right to choose.
There are always going to be people who don’t want to be here anymore for whatever reason, and so the government needs to provide a humane way of dealing with these situations.
Like with abortion, access to controlled procedures with trained professionals reduces harm. Restricting access to safe procedures will cause more harm than it prevents.
Definitely sad. Possibly the wrong choice for her, possibly the right choice, but it’s her choice to make despite how I might feel about it.
Unsolicited Conservative: "Has she tried to put God on that wound? If only she was religious..."
Dude, doctors will even try homeopathy before resorting to euthanasia.
Idk, i am torn on this. Obviously people have had depression with suicidal tendencies since the dawn of humanity, but i feel like most modern suicides come from the failings of oir current systems. I am Zoraya's age and have struggled with depression and finding a reason to live for well over a decade. Euthanisia should be available to anyone with a terminal condition, but she still has her whole lofe ahead of her. It saddens me that the state has decided it is better to let her have a painless suicide rather than address the issues that make her life no longer worth living. To me there is no excuse for otherwise healthy adults in the prime of their lives to feel hopeless, but that is the society we have collectively decided we want to live in.
I'm glad she will be able to die on her own terms, but there is no excuse for this to be her only option. Our society has failed Zoraya and countless people like her.
I have no doubts about her sincerity to die. I just think that a better society would have been able to find her a reason to live. She is absolutely in the right here, and has done nothing wrong. It's her government which has failed her.
Why are you assuming that her mental situation developed as a result of society or "the government"? The article mentions that her conditions are chronic and started developing in early childhood. People can have mental conditions without any particular external trigger.
I read somewhere that we have way more suicides in general than before. That seemed plausiblevso I didn't look it up proper. Also, whatever her problem is, that's not what assisted suicide is for , she is abusing the system. The backlash from this improper use will impede access for the people who really need it.
but i feel like most modern suicides come from the failings of oir current systems
This is something you should probably confirm and not decide on gut feeling
I am Zoraya’s age and have struggled with depression and finding a reason to live for well over a decade.
Depression is not a binary thing... it's not like you have it or not... most people "feel blue" every so often and that is mild depression... some people are rendered catatonic and can't bring themselves to go to the bathroom so they soil themselves... that is also depression but a much more hardcore case... comparing whatever you have vs whatever this person you don't know have (not counting they mentioned Zoraya suffers from other mental health issues as well) is not right... it could be like me comparing the salty burger I had the other day which I didn't like vs the literally rotten food being served to inmates in Murica.
To me there is no excuse for otherwise healthy adults in the prime of their lives to feel hopeless
So you ARE comparing the salty burger vs rotten food on the same level...
I’m glad she will be able to die on her own terms, but there is no excuse for this to be her only option. Our society has failed Zoraya and countless people like her.
Again you double down on the notion that "her depression is just sadness, have you tried smiling today?". Also, this is not her only option, this is the last option after a decade of trying other options
I feel like a lot of replies here have the same "every live is precious and needs to be protected at all costs"-vibe as you get with a lot of anti-abortion arguments.
You are casually ceding the "not wanting people to kill themselves" ground to the right while also allowing them to paint themselves as caring about human lives when in reality they just want to control women's bodies and protect fetuses, not people.
"Every life is valuable" is obviously a left-wing stance because the left are the ones who actually care about people's lives, even when they're disabled, downtrodden, and painted as burdens on society.
Oh right wing def feel every life has value.
Just less value then everybodies right not to be forced to pay for them.
They are fairly open about the value of a states non right to force an indevidual to fund anothers life. Being more important then anything.
That the value for all lives is based on either an indeviduals ability to self support. Or other indeviduals willingness to offer charity.
It is forced charity usinging the states ability to use violence they consider a greater crime then any % of society not wanting to support the lives of those in need.
Its not value or no value. But priority of those values that differs.
IE states using its same power of violence to kill forign people who might disagree with the state. Can be argued with no worry about the value of those actions. They have no issue with not choosing to fund defence or the actual state ability to use violence to enforce its laws.
Just the state taking money via potential force to provide life to US citizens in need.
Until they are asked to do something to help, then it's crickets
Goodbye Zoraya ter Beek, and never stop fighting!
Also the utter disrespect on social media, flooding her accounts with stupid Messages.
Actually her fight is over, that's the entire point
Never ever! Except a few weeks from now
Death is permanent and cannot be undone. Once someone dies they take all their love, potential and beauty with them. We can only live with the memory of it, but that memory doesn’t have the ability to create new things or react to life in new ways.
That said, people should be able to end their suffering in a dignified manner of their choosing without suffering more. No one asked to be alive, it’s a burden imposed on them by the will of the living. The least we can do, then, is to make living as devoid of suffering as we can for everyone.
If potential is key, I say keep the context of the MAID process but instead of outright death make it cryonics. Plus other potential relevant volunteer stuff and organ donation stuff lined up. Even if the initial cryonics technique is not even close to viable, other stuff could be transformative. If cryonics has any chance to work, things will get appreciably better in 300-or-so years right?
Hopeful worst is my brain in a jar mostly playing VR and sometimes knitting yarn via robotic arms. Lots of ways it could be better. Also unlike traditional cyborg stuff with all-machine life-support, I would like to still have a complex microbiome if not taking it further with symbiosis.
On the appointed day, the medical team will come to Ter Beek’s house. “They’ll start by giving me a sedative, and won’t give me the drugs that stop my heart until I’m in a coma. For me, it will be like falling asleep. My partner will be there, but I’ve told him it’s OK if he needs to leave the room before the moment of death,” she said.
this struck me as a bit odd. In switzerland they cannot „act“, they can only prepare the drugs etc, but you have to do the final act by yourself, otherwise its considered murder.
interesting that they handle it differently
Actually both options are possible here in the Netherlands, it's a matter of preference of the patient. In both cases a doctor will be present, whom will also supply the drugs if a patient chooses to take them themselves.
This case is incredibly rare though, it is already extremely hard to have a euthanasia request granted for mental issues at an older age, let alone someone so young.
A bit more background on 'the aftermath' by the way, as the article doesn't mention that: after the euthanasia has taken place a coroner will establish that this was indeed the cause of death. Once that is done the public prosecutor needs to give permission before the remains may be buried or cremated.
Also, the coroner will send the report of both the physician who approved and performed the euthanasia and that of the SCEN-doctor, who performed the obligatory 2nd opinion mentioned in the article, to a special committee that will check if everything went by the book. Not only the procedure leading up to the euthanasia, but also the act of the euthanasia itself. If there are doubts about whether or not all means of treatment were exhausted and if there really was undue and indefinite suffering, or if there are any doubts if the patient really wanted to go through with the procedure at 'the moment supreme', a doctor can be held accountable for that. Fortunately that is rare, as the whole procedure is not taken lightly.
I would never take that right away from someone, but I'm very sad nothing else worked for her. 29 just feels so young to have to exit, so many chances for experiences left.
Let people be free.
And healthcare is for everyone. The means are healthcare in this case. And social & cultural support helps.I’m glad she will be able to end her suffering painlessly.
The world we live in, where this news travels all over the globe, and we get to argue about the death of a girl on the internet.
Funny times, to say the least.
“People think that when you’re mentally ill, you can’t think straight, which is insulting,” she told the Guardian.
So much this. I've had so many people tell me that when I tell them that I don't see a way into the future and I want them to leave me the fuck alone, it actually means that I want more help. No, you donkey, it doesn't. It means leave me alone.
Bonus points when they are coming up with "ideas for my future" that are just genuinely unappealing to me and are then livid when I say no. Do they really think that going on a vacation or changing my job was not something I already thought about and discarded because I know it would not help? Nah, I'm ill, so I also must be stupid. "You always just say no. I am trying to help and you always just say no." Thanks for realizing that you are not helping me but just want to feel good about yourself.
I don't know about your personal situation, and it may be different for whatever you are suffering with, however the part you quoted is true for a lot of cases.
Having just looked after my wife through a period of ~3 years really severe depression I've seen it first hand, it completely changed her personality and outlook and she was saying all kinds of stuff she's quite embarrassed by now. She genuinely couldn't think straight at all or see any way out, and in that moment if offered the choice to die she might have taken it (a fact she is quite scared by now, having mostly recovered).
Similar story with my brother, who has bipolar... when he's manic he has an absolute inability to hold a train of thoughts together for longer than 30 seconds. When he's depressed it's absolutely awful. He's now stable and enjoying his life.
I'm not arguing that this shouldn't be an option for some very extreme chronic conditions, but it's obviously complicated.
Maybe if the medical industrial complex surrounding mental health wasn't so profit-hungry and dehumanising, then she might not think that death is an option that she needs to take.
I hope she finds the peace she didn't have in life.
If you die, there is no peace to find … there is nothing.
What leads someone in her situation to decide to go down the euthanasia route rather than regular suicide which doesn't need any approval?
It's a morbid thought but euthanasia approval seems like it could often be a slow drawn out process, and someone able-bodied wouldn't necessarily need it.
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making someone else do it because although you want it done, you can't bring yourself to do it when the time comes
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making someone else do it because you don't want to fuck it up and deal with the rather significant aftermath after waking up 3 hours later with only a pumped stomach
Plus, gathering from comments about the article cuz I'm lazy, but I gather (and empathize) there's the added benefit of giving any loved ones time to prepare and say their goodbyes without potentially traumatizing anyone that might find you after
Quick edit someone else commented the same thing literally right below 😶🌫️
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For me I don't want someone to have to find me and deal with the aftermath. I'd much rather it be a planned thing so no one else has to suffer just because I needed to end it all. Unfortunately I'm in a country where that's not possible so when the time comes I need to go deep into a forest or something.
This is mentioned in the article. She chose euthanasia because someone she knew growing up committed suicide and she saw how it devastated the family.
Also I imagine the anxiety about messing up without professional expertise would be awful. Plus worrying about legal repercussions for any assistance. Etc. etc.
I've been in and out of therapy and on and off meds for 32 years, nothing has helped, I wish this was an option. God speed to her.
I love you username
Thanks
It’s her choice what can we really do? It’s tragic but because it is so visible while many others are in this position without such visibility.
I pray I never experience this state of things however at the same time I know I will sooner or later. I sometimes approach the state of insufferable mental torture however it is never permanent or hopeless but I have some tiny glimpse to understand her decision.
The choice of how one exits life is the last bastion of power the living have.
We can change societies in a few ways to reduce the number of people that reach her situation. That's going to take a very long time. Another thing that could be done is creating a plan for people in her situation. I think this will happen in the future (and will impact society in general). It has to do with the use of psychedelics. It may sound crazy to some, but I'd recommend we give people like this some shrooms, then escalate that to something like Ayahuasca and then DMT. If she still feels like nothing is worth it at that point, so be it, but I believe she'd change her mind on this path and have the potential to live a much happier life. This comment may seem extreme now, but looking back, I don't think it will be.
I'd be willing to bet she's already tried that. She requested this over three years ago.
I feel sorry for her partner watching your loved one die is fucking brutal.
Hope they get supported in the aftermath.
Don't really agree with this. If you look at it on an individual level, there's a case for it, but on a social level, it's dangerous. Individualist societies look for individual solutions even if the problem is social. There are problems that can't be solved with any sort of medication, therapy, etc, because the cause of the problem isn't with the individual. It's impossible to know for sure if any kind of social change would fix her problems, but if suicide is simply the go-to answer when such a problem is encountered, then we will never know. And once this becomes normalized and people start accepting it as a viable solution, then it's going to be a lot harder to materially improve things for people in these situations. Often it's only when people see that there is no individualist solution that they start thinking in terms of systemic changes, and if there's any kind of "solution," no matter how horrid it is, they'll turn to that first. I don't want to create a future where, "I've tried everything I can to fix myself and I still feel like shit," is met with a polite and friendly, "Oh, well have you considered killing yourself?"
Suicide is violence. Self-harm is harm. It's nonsense to describe a process that kills you as "safe." I understand that many people view it terms of rights or personal wills because those are prevailing ways to look at things, in individualist cultures. But life is inherently valuable and if someone thinks otherwise about their own, then they are wrong. I would make an exception for someone with severe, incurable physical pain, but while mental pain is just as real and valid as physical pain, the way it functions is more complex, and so I'm skeptical that it could be declared "incurable" to a sufficient standard, especially if solutions aren't limited to the individual level.
The fact is that we ought to be striving to accommodate as widely diverse minds as possible. Both because it's the right thing to do, and because diversity is valuable, and people who see things differently may notice or understand things that others don't. If the diversity of minds starts to narrow, I'm concerned that it will continue to narrow until neurodiverse people are effectively eliminated from society, or be isolated without community, as more and more pressure builds against anyone who doesn't fit the mold of a productive worker.
Suicide is violence
sorry that's simply your opinion. for most who seek it for medical reasons, it's the final escape. I don't have enough familiarity with this case to judge but would want the option open should I need it. You have no idea what kind of physical pain people have to live with - shit that can't be touched by opioids or other painkillers, like bone cancer. The only out for some of these folks is to be gorked to unconsciousness. I'd prefer to pass on that and go straight to the end myself.
But it is it a greater harm to decline her request and force her to endure suffering (or risk more drastic methods)?
I hear where you're coming from (I think), and agree this is tragic, but part of me is jealous of her.
How much that part of me equates to changes each day with my tension headaches
Personally, I think the greater harm would come from the normalization of suicide, because it will lead to cases where it is unnecessary. It's better to err on the side of caution.
The prototypical case where assisted suicide is pitched is an elderly person, lying in bed in constant pain, unable to end their life without it. That I can accept.
But in this case, it's possible that something could change that would allow her to live a healthy and happy life, and she wasn't confined to a hospital bed, so if it was so important for her to kill herself she could've found a way to. What assisted suicide is doing in that case is not providing a last resort option, but removing the social barriers and stigma around what should be considered a last resort option. Making the process sterilized, clean, and beurocratic.
People on here have said stuff like, "Oh it's so much less traumatic to her loved ones this way." But what about without the policy? What would be stopping her from communicating to her spouse and family her intentions and the necessity of the act, because of the pain she was in? What exactly changes about the situation just because the state rubber stamps the act?
Many people choose suicide rashly and impulsively, and the social barriers we've created exist for a reason, because it's supposed to be discouraged, it's supposed to be stigmatized. Because if stigma and discouragement are enough to dissuade you, then it wasn't actually necessary.
What makes you think that severe chronic depression is more curable than severe chronic pain? maybe within a year someone will come up with a new drug or therapy that cures certain types of severe chronic pain? Should we force people to endure the pain in the basis of this possibility?
Or what makes you think this woman's problem is social? What if she has some genetic or neural predisposition to having such problems? Should we deny her request on the basis that normally mental health issues are social?
You are talking about accommodating neurodiversity but your view of life and mental health conditions is extremely black and white.
Mental health is socially defined to a very large extent. One of the ways that we evaluate a person's mental health is whether their issues interfere with an ability to live a "normal" life, which includes providing for themselves. Well, a person's ability to provide for themselves can vary drastically based on external circumstances, like how rich they are or what social services they have access to.
It's my belief that it's rare for evolution to screw up. Of course, sometimes it does, but I'd argue that many mental illnesses are the result of one's mind being equipped for a different set of circumstances than the one they're in. In some cases, there's clear evidence that this is the case, but in other cases it's more difficult to prove.
I just don't believe we should give up on a person just because they ask us to. If a friend came up to me and asked me to help them kill themselves because of a mental illness, I would do everything I could to find an alternative solution and talk them down from it. I feel like that's the normal response anyone would have, and people are treating it differently just because a state said that it's ok.
I don't want to create a future where, "I've tried everything I can to fix myself and I still feel like shit," is met with a polite and friendly, "Oh, well have you considered killing yourself?"
Are you for real? This kind of thing is a last resort that nobody is going to just outright suggest unprompted to a suffering person, unless that person asks for it themselves. No matter how "normalized" suicide might become, it's never gonna be something doctors will want to recommend. That's just... Why would you even think that's what's gonna happen
I don't really see why you say you'd make an "exception" for strong and lasting physical pain (which by the way are of course the vast majority of assisted suicide cases), but not for mental health reasons. In this case multiple doctors concluded that the patient is unlikely to improve, and no progress has been made in over 10 years of therapy.
especially if solutions aren't limited to the individual level.
What do you mean by "not limited to the individual level"?
What I mean by that is that there are some problems that affect individuals which are not caused by anything wrong with the individual, but by the world at large. For example, climate change. It can't be solved at the individual level, and it may be possible to shut out and ignore it, but that's not really a proper way of handling it. No amount of therapy or drugs will make climate change go away.
I'm not saying that the woman in question is killing herself for that reason. But I am saying that how much things like that can affect people's mental health is something that is difficult to study and prove. One example that does have evidence though is social support for gender transition - trans people with social support generally have much better mental health than those without, but addressing this issue can require changes to society as a whole and not just the individual trans person's behavior or mentality.
My concern is that people will overlook potential social changes to accommodate people, if they view the issue as solved by means of assisted suicide.
Self-harm is harm. It's nonsense to describe a process that kills you as "safe."
Safe to her? No. Neither option can boast that.
Euthanasia is safer to everyone else around her. And tidier.
Get it?
And tidier.
Those two words are why I find this thread so terrifying and so alienating. I'll never "get" the perspective that tidiness is a significant factor when discussing matters of life and death, and to be perfectly frank, it makes me feel like a lot of this is coming from a mentality towards suicidal people of "Get them out of my sight so I don't have to deal with them and their negative vibes bring me down" rather than genuine empathy and concern for wellbeing. And that sort of mentality surrounding this, about how neat and tidy and clean it all is, how it avoids disruption to society, is exactly what makes the policy so concerning to me.
The slippery slope falacy is so passé my dude, get on with it.
Especially in a situation where someone could feasibly find other ways to “solve” their problem. Why would the slippery slope apply when people are already ending their own lives?
It's not a fallacy to say that policy designed with the goal of normalizing something over time will cause it to become more normalized over time.
Besides, the responses in this thread are terrifying enough already.
Had my diagnosed mental health condition hadn’t mellowed with age, I wouldn’t be able to have a functional life or hold a job. I support this woman making her own decisions about whether she can bear the burden of existence.
Yeah I also got a friend like that which I just met over Snapchat. I'm from Austria and I immediately started crying when I heard that. I mean good when people can choose how to go out but still sad. She's still living though and going strong 💪
Ah and she's also from the Netherlands
My arguements against this are the same as my arguements against the death penalty.
People make mistakes, even those who wish to die. Im not trusting the state with the power to kill me, even if its by assisted suicide.
I only support this for people who are terminally ill and about to die.
I get where you're going but on the other side of your fear of the state you are denied release from what could be immense suffering because the state deems it.
Body autonomy is in my opinion a very crucial part of human rights even if the decisions is ultimately a mistake. You can't really stop people from committing suicide, all you can do is make it less humane.
I get where you’re going but on the other side of your fear of the state you are denied release from what could be immense suffering because the state deems it.
Often times its the state causing the immense suffering...
Modern psychology really misses the mark in the sense often times its just treating the symptoms so they can get you back to work as quickly as possible.
Im more interested in restorative justice with psychology, as well as treating the symptoms; we should be treating the causes too...
Body autonomy is a myth, 'biopower' is a concept that has been utilized since the industrial age, the role of the structres of society are to keep you healthy enough to work.
Regardless, I caveeted that yes, if you're physically about to die and under immense suffering id support these actions. In a privatesed health system with an aging demographic though you cannot prevent abuses of power from happening with assisted suicide; family members pressuring mentally ill family members into an early suicide to remove there care burden, people doing it for inheritance, people thinking they have a uncurable mental illness when in reality the effective treatments are denied to them (I think of PTSD war sufferers denied MDMA which is proven 90%+ effective in treating PTSD who go onto kill themselves...)
There are so many ethical concerns with this stuff that only takes a little foresight to see how bad it would be in reality.
I've had those depressive thoughts, I've fought self harm and depression. I have mostly gotten past it and during the period, I don't think I ever saw light at the end of the tunnel.
I'm glad she is able to get the relief she needs. I couldn't imagine putting someone through the turmoil that I had during my lowest points. It's sad, but it's okay for things to be sad in life. I'm glad she is able to have frank discussions on her desires and her wellbeing. It's going to be hard for her partner, friends, and family, but it would be so much worse and so traumatic if she didn't have help or had to hide the desires until she took her own life regardless of the laws.
It's going to be hard for her partner, friends, and family, but it would be so much worse and so traumatic if she didn't have help or had to hide the desires until she took her own life regardless of the laws.
I'm not sure that's true. Losing someone to suicide is in itself quite traumatic. One relief many people have is when they wrap their head around how a self destructive impulse in the heat of an especially devastating moment could have led to it. But living with the fact that your daughter/wife/sister/friend very consciously decided she would rather be dead than to share in this life with you - that's tough. It's not unusual with relatives of suicide victims to struggle with feelings of intense anger towards the person they lost, which in turn can lead to feelings of guilt and shame. It's hard to work through something like that. And I don't think it gets any easier if the circumstances are as emphasised as in this case.
I think there are very valid use cases for assisted suicide. Personally I doubt that depression is one of them, because suicidality is such an inextricable part of the disorder itself. At the end of the day this is a suicide, just with extra steps and a stamp of approval by a national agency. The people surviving her will not only have to work through the fact of her suicide but process the official approval as well.
The only advantage to a "regular" suicide I can think of is avoiding the trauma of the person finding you. (Although there are probably ways around that anyway.) But I guess she has her reasons to have chosen this specific method and setting.
I’m sure this is very difficult for her, her partner, and her family, but I’m glad that there is an option for her, other than committing suicide on her own. It gives her a chance to say goodbye to everyone on her own terms, and prevents her and her partner from suffering even more.
I’m in favor of these kinds of laws, and maybe there could be (of course with her consent) a thorough study of her brain to try to help others in similar situations.
It’s a very sad situation, but the best we can all do for her is try to understand her decision and try not to judge her. I hope she finds the peace she’s looking for.
I am all about giving people the possibility to put an end to their lives and there are plenty of people who are living almost unbearable lives, full of pain and suffering. And I know it is wrong to judge people without being in their shoes but, part of me is refusing to accept that a person who is apparently, young and physically healthy and in a relationship where the other partner obviously cares about her is so depressive and miserable that she wants to die.
So I have mixed feelings in this particular case and I feel sorry for her family and partner, who I am sure really wanted her to get better.
Nevertheless, I am happy that there are still doctors who are willing to take such cases because I can imagine how hard and psychologically challenging it would be to work with those people and they have my full respect.
Yeah, especially with curable and non progressive conditions
Did you read the article? She's been in intensive care for her mental health for a decade. This wasn't some spur of the moment decision. Its taken 10 years to get to this point. To state that mental illnesses are curable and non-progressive is pure ignorance and you would do yourself well to learn how poor the prognosis is for people with severe mental illness. There isn't a cure. You never feel whole or normal. Medication is a shot in the dark most of the time. Therapy doesn't help everybody. Some people are truly and completely untreatable, and she is one of those people
This is the best summary I could come up with:
A 29-year-old Dutch woman who has been granted her request for assisted dying on the grounds of unbearable mental suffering is expected to end her life in the coming weeks, fuelling a debate across Europe over the issue.
Zoraya ter Beek received the final approval last week for assisted dying after a three and a half year process under a law passed in the Netherlands in 2002.
Her case has caused controversy as assisted dying for people with psychiatric illnesses in the Netherlands remains unusual, although the numbers are increasing.
An article about her case, published in April, was picked up by international media, prompting an outcry that caused Ter Beek huge distress.
“I knew I couldn’t cope with the way I live now.” She had thought about taking her own life but the violent death by suicide of a schoolfriend and its impact on the girl’s family deterred her.
“I was on a waiting list for assessment for a long time, because there are so few doctors willing to be involved in assisted dying for people with mental suffering.
The original article contains 837 words, the summary contains 180 words. Saved 78%. I'm a bot and I'm open source!
This should be a standard option at annual physicals. Skip the BP check I just want out.
I can fix her!
I'm currently midway through a program to become a therapist. I've been in the mental health space for quite some time, and worked with students of many ages.
This is the wrong decision. Suicide is usually a consequence of hopelessness. In my experience, hope can be brought back to most people suffering from mental health issues.
It also sets a dangerous precedent. A way out, so to speak, for people with a temporary, overcomable problem.
(For the record, I am ok with medical assistance in dying when it comes to chronic severe pain and illness).
I'm currently midway through a program to become a therapist. I've been in the mental health space for quite some time, and worked with students of many ages.
So you are not a therapist.
Bodily autonomy includes the right to die, if one choses to do so. Are you against bodily autonomy?
And what do you think would happen if she had been denied? Instead of a dignified death in a safe environment she might have resorted to options available to her, possibly endangering other people as well.
The previous commentor sounds exactly like all those people who have harassed Zoraya with their bullshit "miracle cures".
It had always astounded me that we offer painless, merciful euthanasia to our pets and animals, both wild and domesticated, yet not to our fellow humans, who must suffer until the bitter end.
How did you misconstrue their comment so badly? Are therapists not allowed to work with students? I believe there is a clear and obvious difference between bodily autonomy, having the right to die with dignity, and euthanasia. This lady stated she "cannot cope with the suffering" and yet she proceeded to do so for three years while waiting patiently for approval. IMO anyone with truly intolerable suffering (mental or otherwise) would have found a way out long before this decision.
Have you read the article?
Under Dutch law, to be eligible for an assisted death, a person must be experiencing “unbearable suffering with no prospect of improvement”. They must be fully informed and competent to take such a decision.
After 10 years, there was “nothing left” in terms of treatment. “I knew I couldn’t cope with the way I live now.”
In the three and a half years this has taken, I’ve never hesitated about my decision.
How is this a temporary and overcomable problem? It seems clear that it is not temporary and no kind of treatment worked for her. As per the law, there must be unbearable suffering without prospect of improvement, and during the multiple stages of this process, apparently no one came to the conclusion that that wasn't the case for her. So how can you make that assessment?
Do you really think that becoming a therapist is a good idea when you can't even read the article which lays out her hopeless situation?
Also this isn't a precedent.
Also why are you okay with assistance in dying when it comes to pain and illness but not mental illness? Because you can't see/diagnose the latter so easily?
This is definitely a nuanced discussion and every situation is different, so I'm not going to make any sweeping statements about the whole thing, but I generally see suicidality as a symptom of something else. If we can improve the "something else," the suicidality improves or even goes away in the vast majority of cases.
This is different from other Medical Assistance in Death situations because in the cases where it is implemented because of pain and illness, there is no reasonable hope of improving their outcomes. In the vast majority of mental health cases, there is a lot of hope, even if the patient does not see it (which is often. Most situations where a person expresses suicidal ideation and intention to family, friends, or therapists do not end in follow through. Having someone to talk to about those thoughts helps. Even validating their thoughts helps: "It makes sense that you feel like that, honestly." But ultimately, you want to help them get through to the next day. The vast majority of people who were in this circumstance are glad they did not follow through).
Again, the discussion is nuanced and I don't think Lemmy is the best place to facilitate this discussion, but that is more or less my take on it.
I didn't agree with this decision. Life is precious.
She should do some extreme sports. Jump out of a plane with one of those flying squirrel things.
Hopefully she donates her organs
"I'm depressed and want to take my life. I've been struggling since my childhood and in 10 years of different kinds of treatments, nothing worked."
"Have you tried jumping out of a plane with one of those flying squirrel things?"
"Oh wow, that was it, that fixed it! Thanks!" /s
She is really pretty, and it's sad she wants to go. However, I believe in personal agency, and if she wants to go, let her fucking go.
It is so bizarre to me that regarding an article about a woman who wants to die because of constant mental anguish, the very first thing you felt was worth saying is "she is really pretty".
If I'm being perfectly honest, I don't entirely know my own point, I just had to comment on it because it stood out as do bizarre to me.
Bro's really doing the "nooo don't kill yourself your so sexy aha" meme
It is an odd and unfitting statement, but the feeling is genuine and not raw sexual desire. It is easier to relate to good looking people than ones with disfigurement. Some Special Books By Special Kids thumbnails gross me out brutally, even if it is not something I want to happen.
I'm against it. Not sure what else to say.
Thats fine to have your opinion as long as youre not stopping someone else from doing what they want with their own life
I think the question is one of balance for me personally. Where do you draw the line?
Like, this person seems to have been in a pretty long queue and had a lot of time to evaluate, but is that denying her dignity? Should there be a waiting period, or is that denying someone healthcare?
I think we would all agree that we shouldn't allow an 18yo who just broke up with their first SO to decide to have a doctor help them unalive themselves, right?
Is the three and a half years of waiting and treatments that this woman has undergone too much? Not enough?
I'll admit that it feels bad to me to allow a 29yo to go down this particular path. People who are seeking death are rarely in the kind of headspace where I think they are able to meaningfully consent to that?
And this feels meaningfully different than the case of a 90yo who's body is slowly failing them. This is an otherwise healthy young person.
Idk, there are no easy answers here. Bodily autonomy is important, but so is helping people not engage in extremely self destructive behavior. If we didn't have that imperative, fire departments wouldn't try and stop people from jumping off bridges, right? Where is that line? I don't know, and I wouldn't want to have to make that call.
Cool. Don't do it yourself then. Not sure what else to say.
Her life is not your choice though. Thankfully.
None of us signed up for this shit.
I truly mean this in good faith: you would honestly rather that she continue suffering?
I'm not against it but I upvoted you because I think you have a fair position and expressed it honestly and in a completely reasonable way.
Why?