How often had I overlooked women's contributions ?
One of the comments reads : Actually, we will probably never figure out, was it man or woman. but I thought this comment of the professor was an interesting eye opener. https://mastodonapp.uk/@MarkHoltom/112070436760917344
I always read this type of statement as man = species.
I know this particular thinking is falling out of fashion but it's not totally dead yet
Thing is, statements like the one in the post are just as ignorant as the claimed "enemy".
You know what else takes 28 days? A moon cycle. We have absolutely no context, what this means. A period tracker bone is a perfectly valid hypothesis, but without any proof or context nothing more than this. It could have been used for moon phases, sheep counting, trade, or simply for testing stone knives.
This specific instance probably.
But the point is soo much of history ignores the female perspective (or the non-european perspective). Sometimes intentionally like all the female scientists that contribute to foundational studies and don't get their name on the published paper.
And this is really damaging; I have a family member that legitimately believes that european-descent men are the smartest throughout history (when I brought up the Islamic Golden Age as a counter example he accused it of being propaganda).
American schools are so bad at teaching diverse history. So many still struggle with the basic truths about Columbus and the Natives.
Look at the ancient structures found throughout the world. The only one I know of in non-Mediterranian Europe is Stonehenge which, while impressive, is some stones hauled over a great distance and placed is an astronomically significant manner. Then you have pyramids and ziggurats in just about every other region except Northern Europe, North America, Australia, and Antarctica, ancient cities on every continent except Northern Europe, Australia, and Antarctica, Polynesians developing a means of marine navigation that is effective across the southern hemisphere (the Norse had a system that was effective in the North Atlantic), Australia having an oral history that has evidence of recording events that go back at least 10000 years (while surviving in some of the most inhospitable terrain on the planet). When you look at it, significant achievements in ancient Northern Europe were pretty sparse. We do seem to have caught up in the modern era, though.
Agreed, when speaking of the distant past, I always assume that by "man" they mean "mankind" aka human.... Not males.
In the grand scheme, I don't think it matters whether the thing was done by a male or female, the fact that it happened is the interesting thing about it.
I'm 100% positive that both men (males) and women contributed to these things, and it is impossible to know how much influence each sex had on any given thing, so I'm not sure why the sex of the ancient person who did it, matters.
You are ignorant of recent history then.
Men did do their best to segregate women in the 18th and 19th century. And they succeeded. Even in the language.
Women fighting for women to be recognized in history is an important fight for women to be respected and recognized for their doing, because even now they aren't.
And I'm not saying it's an all men problem. It's a society problem.
That's the correct interpretation of that use of the word, and the quote in the post is meaning to use it in that way before pretending it's a gotcha.
The term man (from Proto-Germanic *mann- "person") and words derived from it can designate any or even all of the human race regardless of their sex or age. In traditional usage, man (without an article) itself refers to the species or to humanity (mankind) as a whole.
Same here. My native langauge is not gendered and I rarely associate “man” in academic spaces with “gender” category. I usually need more info to tilt to gender in discussions.
I'm pretty sure that was the intent behind the original wording. The interpretation of this being the remnant of a female human makes sense to me, but as this is an anecdotal account of Sandi Toksvig's time in university, we really have no idea if this is a good example of the lack of a female perspective in anthropology or just a convenient strawman to make a point.
In any case, cool meme.
This and "hey guys"
I don't know about English, but in French in the 19th century men did enforce the use of homme (men) instead of humain (human) in the déclaration des droits de l'homme et du citoyen, and in the language, because they did want to segregate women. It was a purposeful and deliberate decision.
I am convinced it's exactly the same in English.
But its taken to mean both, so at least lightly attributes it to a man rather than a woman.
In the context of prehistory it's to my knowledge taken to be short for mankind and feck all else. I agree its ambiguous in the modern age which is likely why it's dieing out. Science doesn't like ambiguous wordage
In history where we have names and context I absolutely agree and it is good to see the important women in history finally getting brought to the forefront
I mean the lunar cycle is roughly 29 days with the argument that it’s 28 if you don’t count the new moon.
I realize this is a neat thought idea but it I think best demonstrates how easy it is to jump to conclusions.
In English common law, a "lunar month" traditionally meant exactly 28 days or four weeks, thus a contract for 12 months ran for exactly 48 weeks
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunar_month
So, depending on the legal framework, a 28 day marker could be very useful. If they were actually tracking the moon, you'd think it would be 29 units even though a lunar month can vary between about 29.1 and 29.9 days. Then again, 28 notches on a stick means 29 sections, so...?
It's interesting that a woman's menstrual cycles is approx 28.1 days on average, with a standard deviation of 3.95 days. That means 28 days is a lot closer to the average menstrual cycle than the average lunar month. But, the standard deviation is a lot greater.
Other than tides, why do you need to know when the next full moon is? And can't you just look at the moon and see how close it is waning to the full moon?
Not saying the calendar is definitely a woman's, but wanting to know when you're going to start leaking blood onto everything near you seems like a good reason to track a period.
I mean you can look at the moon to get a general sense, but if you want to be more precise then I’d use the new moon as the start and count the days until the next new moon.
As far as why, I mean the seasons generally follow the lunar cycle so it would be a way to count the seasons and time and plan and do literally anything you’d need to do that you’d track time for.
I bet you’d even want to track your menstrual cycle, I just wouldn’t limit it to that.
I think the real “issue” with the OP statement and what my response is meant to say is that it doesn’t have to be either or.
A woman’s cycle varies between 15 and 45 days, averaging 28.1 days, but with a standard deviation of 3.95 days. That’s a hell of a lot of variability from one woman to the next. And the same variability can be experienced by a large minority of women from one period to the next, and among nearly all women across the course of their fertile years.
On the other hand, the moon’s cycle (as seen from Earth) takes 27 days, 7 hours, and 43 minutes to pass through all of its phases. And it does so like clockwork, century after century.
Of the two, I am finding the second to have a much stronger likelihood of being the reasoning behind the notches.
Strange how gender-bigotry style historical revisionism and gender exceptionalism seems to get a wholly uncritical and credulous pass when it’s not done by a man.
While I agree with you that the teacher in this post is wrong about what this is, I don't think labeling "gender bigotry" indiscriminately as something both sexes do under one umbrella is accomplishing anything but minimizing the struggle women have endured for basically all of human existence up until the last few decades.
Personally, I wouldn't fault this woman for thinking what she does if she's willing to accept a broader explanation later, given that women have literally been sold as property up until a couple hundred years ago.
Women have the right to at least posit the ways they as a group have been held down, and that includes accepting their indignation and allowing them grace for when they're wrong, because without those things they won't actually learn the truth.
Further than that, I think it's necessary for women learning now to have the same realization this one did that women throughout all of history save for this recent tiny sliver have been oppressed. Even if it's built on an incidentally faulty premise, that doesn't mean the realization itself is wrong.
Covering up the discourse by labeling the process of realization as "gender bigotry" is itself an attempt at erasure, and very much puts you on the side of the oppressors, just because you think it's distasteful to have this realization yourself.
I'm sure gender bigotry exists in the direction of women towards men. This ain't it.
The gender-bigotry comes from the "what man needs to mark 28 days?" There's snark behind the comment, and it's unnecessary. That said, a woman could be just as likely as a man to mark moon phases. But saying "man" doesn't mean "male" when talking about us as a species from my understanding. Seems like a broader term to use which includes the entirety of the homo-whatevers.
I'm just some guy here and am not educated in this stuff, though!
I doubt the teacher really believed this, and they were likely striving to just open their students' minds to the idea that most innovations are probably assumed to be made by men
Why not use a real and confirmed example, then? Because they do exist.
Making a story up - such that it can be actively undermined - certainly does the job poorly at best, and actively hurts the objective at worst.
Other than tides, why do you need to know when the next full moon is? And can't you just look at the moon and see how close it is waning to the full moon?
Not saying the calendar is definitely a woman's, but wanting to know when you're going to start leaking blood onto everything near you seems like a good reason to track a period. Plenty of women are regular like clockwork, I was at 26 days almost exactly for years.
If you start to notice one thing happens pretty regularly and another thing happens regularly but on a larger scale... Say the monthly moon phases and the seasons, you can use the more frequent one to roughly track the less frequent one.
There's both practical and more spiritual/philosophical reasons for this.
Before artificial light sources, especially electrical ones, moon light let people stay productive longer whilst outside. This was especially important for comunal activities like hunting, harvests or celebrations too. Keeping track of moon cycles is thus valuable for preparation in scheduling. And once you do that it can also be used to organize other social events around that. Similar to how our modern calendars and schedules are built around important fixed events.
The moon and sun as celestial bodies also gained prominent religious and mystical significance in ancient cultures. Remember that people didn't actually know what the moon or sun were in the modern scientific sense. But for some strange reason these mystical glowing disks on which people were so reliant kept rising with unerring synchronicity. The inquiry into the movements on the firmament lead many a civilization down the paths of observation, record keeping and math too.
So you're arguing that people would have more use to write moon cycles than women cycles? And you talk about bigotry?!
No meme, only bait.
It's under the sauce.
The comrades we made along the way ✌️😔
i think they mean 'man' as in 'mankind'. also any ideas why would they carve it into bone and not bark or something more flat?
Likely durability. A bone and a stick can both be thrown into a bag and carried with you, but a bone is much more durable than a stick. It’ll be less likely to break or wear down as it rubs against everything else in your bag.
Likely durability and portability. Think of it as something they use month over month and just mark the day with something like a string band. Bone would be light enough to keep with you, strong enough to not break, and common enough to be available for household use.
That's exactly what is meant, but they have to find something to complain about
Sure, you can say "man" means "mankind", but when you use gendered language like that, most people picture a couple of caveMEN sitting around a fire carving bones rather than caveHUMANS (edited -- I think it would benefit us to picture all genders around this hypothetical fire). Even though we try to use gendered language in a neutral way, listeners will often perceive the language in a gendered way.
"Man" also means "humankind". In fact, it was originally a gender-neutral word.
Do they, or is it just men that think that? While women might think of their own gender around a fire, and assume either gender/ non-gendered
Whoosh.
For some reason I thought they meant they carved the calendar on their own bone and thought "damn that's metal af".
Anyway, don't farmers also need to tell the date? Was this bone from before we started doing that?
this proves metal has existed since the dawn of man! enter Miocene epoch heavy metal
First off: Everyone who played the historical documentary Brutal Legend knows that metal was a gift from the gods.
Second: Miocene epoch heavy metal is my favorite genre!
IIRC "Calendar" was one of the proposed solutions, but the bone actually had a lot more than 28 holes. It's one of the reasons it's purpose is considered unknown.
I always find this particular strain of antiintellectualism deeply ironic, because it claims to oppose women being forgotten, but the premise assumes the "scientists" are all male.
I don’t see it assuming scientists are all men. Women are just as capable of internalized misogyny and just as capable of being dense as men.
With the willendorf Venus, it wasn’t until a woman who had already had children worked with it, that they suspected it might be a pregnancy self portrait. There had been women already there, but none who knew what a pregnant person looks like from that perspective.
I really like that idea, in principle, of a sculptor with no reflection to work from doing a self-portrait. But seriously, even somebody having triplets doesn't look like that unless they're like... super morbidly obese already. Even accounting for foreshortening, I mean damn. That kind of figure is a strictly modern invention. But maybe, it's still an interesting idea. But seriously.
It occurs to me that the solution might be to start referring to men as "wermen" again, and revert "men" to it's gender neutral roots. That also means we can have a bunch of other prefixes for other genders.
Languages are fun.
just lean all the way in and call us vermin
"man" as in human kind.
I agree the linguistics here are unfortunate, but here we are, and that word, in that context, is normally gender neutral.
Also, 28 day calendar probably means it's the moon.
It's important to note how we got here. In old English man just meant human. Wereman meant male and wifman meant female. Over time that "were" prefix got dropped and man now means male but the ambiguous meaning of humankind stuck around. In fact "human" comes from old french "of man", again the non-gendered use of the word man.
The point is to fix all these problems we just have to bring back the "were". The progressive werewolves are way ahead of us on this issue.
It would be interesting to see what in an alternate timeline, English would have looked like today if the Norman invasion never happened.
I'm not seeing a comment pointing out why 28 days isn't a moon thing, so I'll take a shot. If you watch new moon to new moon or full moon to full moon, it's a 29.5 day cycle. It's true, the moon's orbit is only 28 days. However, that's 360° of travel. We don't track the moon against the stars for its cycle though, it's tracked against the sun. A full moon sits opposite the sun, a new moon in line with the sun, etc. So, in that 28 day orbital period, the earth has also orbited about 1/13 of an orbit around the sun, changing the position of the sun against the stars . That means the moon has to travel an extra 28° of orbit to reach the new moon position again - about an extra day an a half.
I’m not seeing a comment pointing out why 28 days isn’t a moon thing,
Hm, that's odd! it's right there
I keep track of my girlfriend's ovulation because she can't be bothered to do it. I don't want her to get pregnant either. Just pointing that out.
I hear you but it's far more likely for a woman to track her own period than for a nearby man to track it. You're the reason this professor felt the need to give this example. Because men assume all progress and intellectual pursuits were obviously sought by men. You guys think it's the automatic default, and even the suggestion that a woman might have accomplished something is met with, "hey! It could have been a man!"
There's some faulty reasoning here.
Parent comment challenges the assumption that the marks were made by a female, and you say "you're the reason the professor felt the need to give this example", although the example was given in order to challenge assumptions of gender.
OP is actually learning from the example if anything, since they are challenging gender assumptions.
On top of that, your use of "you guys", and your generalisations about men are evidence of the exact type of biased thinking this example is trying to challenge.
Why wouldn't a male have figured out a lunar cycle and tried to track the moon? Not that the female explanation is lesser in any regard, but why exclude all possibilities?
It could be both.
A few weeks ago I blew my wife’s mind after she commented that both her and her best friend had started their period and I responded with ‘well, it is a full moon.’
She thought I was being ’boomer humor’ sexist until I brought up the studies about it. (Which are not 100% conclusive, mind you, but there are trends.)
All the idiots claiming it's the moon and giving more details about women's cycles are missing the point of the quote.
Which is spelled out, but I'll place it here.
The idea that it was a woman is just as valid as it being a man, but man is always assumed.
The accuracy of the claim is not at issue. The assumption is.
Who is responsible though? The historian, or the man who inscribed the bone?
I'm a woman and I have never needed to chart 28 days.
that screenshot up there reads like some academic person with too much time on their hands trying too hard to congratulate themselves for solving some anthropological mystery.
But since before you were born people knew how long a woman's menstrual cycle lasts. Most likely the Internet existed when you became an adult and thought about measuring things. The society you lived in had existing calendars that you were aware of if/when you had a menstrual cycle. You've never needed to "chart 28 days" but someone who lived long long ago may have wondered and they would have had no frame of reference so they decided to count.
Yeah, I don't get it either. Weren't most, if not all, ancient calendars lunar based? Far easier to work out a 28 day cycle than a 365.25 day cycle.
I’m a woman and I have never needed to chart 28 days.
Is this because you don't care when your next period is? Or because you don't need to record it to remember it?
I can imagine a modern woman might not care if she always has menstrual products on hand or nearby. But, it might have been more meaningful in ancient times when there might have been more taboos associated with menstruation, plus it might have been more important to know as part of family planning. And, it might have been much less convenient to carry around whatever was needed to handle menstruation.
Also, in a modern world where calendars are everywhere, I can imagine someone might say "ok, so my next period will be in early July". But, there was a time when days and months were not tracked, or were only tracked by priests, etc. In that kind of situation, I could imagine it might be useful to count the days until the next period was expected. On the other hand, a primitive society probably spends a lot more time outdoors and sees the moon a lot more often, so it might be just as easy to go "ok, so my next period will be when the moon's 3/4 full".
28 notches means that the bone had 29 sections, which more closely matches a lunar month than a typical menstrual period. But, I could see it being used either way.
This is a refreshing comment, if any. Especially coming from a woman. Thank you.
This isn't a meme...
Are you Richard Dawkins?
A man makes blankets and he "works in textiles" a woman makes blankets and she "has a hobby making quilts".
I similarly like that feminist theory of Venus statues. They aren't dummy thicc proto-porn but the perspective of someone who's pregnant looking down at their reflection in a river and cataloguing the most dangerous/important point of their life.
It makes more sense for the former unfortunately.
The original theory was that it could have been a pregnant women looking down and that's what lead to the proportions. The idea was they wouldn't have been able to see themselves in a river or something. But rivers and puddles, not to mention OTHER pregnant women, were extremely common so it's less likely.
The crux with all of those "first calendars" (idk which one is meant here, but there are multiple who claim this) is that we don't even know if it's a calendar at all. I mean, if this professor's approach serves as an eve-opeher for some, we should retell it whenever possible, yet it doesn't reflect any of the questions we should ask ourselves when seeing 28 carvings in a bone. Assuming that htis can only be a calendar is just the hidden assumption that numbers 25 and up could not have played a role anywhere else, because ppl were to primitive for those numbers somehow.
Perhaps they tracked how many calves in herd they had, or how many horses they had or how many bows they needed to make or how many children there were in the village. Perhaps they wanted to go higher and track something completely different and only got to 28 before they abandoned their approach to whatever they were doing.
eve-opeher
LOL. I guess if it reads, it reads
Some guy tracking the moon.
So they nailed it with the 28 day calendar and we are stuck with this one
13 months of 28 days with an extra holiday at years end, it works so much cleaner than what we use.
That's just what Big February wants you to think.
well yes, but 28 day months dont divide nicely into 365/366 days, so it would not have worked well.... uh, hang on. i'm being handed a note. huh. apparently our current calendar also doesnt solve this neatly at all, and is in fact a patched monstrosity more batshit than anything any single malicious person could come up with. well.
Anyone working with dates and times was cursed in a past life. Timezones are a pain to work with. Daylight savings sucks. Some countries change daylight savings at different times. Some countries change timezones sometimes. Go further back and some countries had their own leap days. Different calendars don't form neat cycles and must be manually synchronized every few years. Did you know Easter, for about 300 years, needed to be announced by the Pope each year because it was a lunar holiday based on a Jewish calendar but the Christians followed a different one? Also, every now and again we throw a leap second into the computers because the Earth's rotation is gradually slowing down and 365/366 days isn't quite precise enough anyways.
I'm confused by this quote - no sane person would assume a male did something just because we say man did it. In this instance, man would simply be referencing humanity
The want to define whether a male or female did it without any evidence is simply sexist
Isn't it a shame though that the way we refer to humanity as a whole is by using the specific word that represents only half of humanity?
Its not hard to see how this is exclusionary. Honestly, how many people immediately conjure an image of a woman in their head when someone says "man's first attempt at X"? Male as the default is the root of the issue here. Its not difficult for us to use more suitable language like " humanity" or "humankind".
Sandi clearly isn't up in arms about the language used here, she's just simply pointing out this exact problem. First thought is of a man's work. Only through thoughtfully examined details do we invoke a woman's presence. Men are the default, but why? Many of these ancient cultures revered their women; attributed vast amounts of the success of their people to them and we set up their historic legacy into the future with poor choice of words. Its sad, really.
Fortunately things are changing for the better.
I agree that English is a constantly changing language, with many words meaning the same thing or single words meaning multiple different things. It's the case with the male man, derived from werman, as is such with many other words
But your point ignores what I was trying to say
Anybody who feels the need to specify gender with such limited information is simply being sexist. Neither male nor female should be assumed in this instance
This goes for people other than those in the post; scholars and students should be held accountable alike
Whether these historic individuals were male or female is irrelevant. Only their creations truly matter
I'm guessing the implication is they were tracking their period?
He died before he could carve 29.
Maybe they were narrating it
Never mind anything, making the abstract connection between one event and the number of marks you scratch on a wall was probably the equivalent of genius of the time, the first mathematician.
I am sure the comments on this meme community post in a niche social media site will not be filled with butthurt men's rights activists.
You could have at least used the term "misogynist" so as to not imply that men's rights are a bad thing.
Hey, we found one!
Not seriously, "men's rights activists" are a specific group of people that only exist to complain about and hate women. They don't care about men's rights, they are anti-feminists.
If you genuinely didn't know this, then I'd love to know what Internet rock You've been hiding under. If you're trying to concern troll, fuck off, MRAs are fucking scum.
-signed, a man.
Yep. A bit like a 7 day publicly displayed tracker of days on a 28 day lunar calendar cycle.
Was "I am the God of your Father" an editorial attempt to distinguish the deity from the gods of Egypt, or from the god of a Mother?
There's some pretty odd details in that book, like in Isaac's supposed patriarchal blessing which discussed "the sons of your mother bow down to you" or it being the only place there's the male form of gebirah ("Great Lady") - a title first applied in the text to Isaac's mother whose name is based on the word for 'chief.' Who is supposedly later followed by a figure 'Deborah' ('bee') who is a leader of the people around the time we now know bees were being imported into Tel Rehov and regularly requeened to avoid genetic drift with local bee populations. Also weird that the events regarding a "land of milk and honey" supposedly take place in a land with no honey and only one discovered apiary.
That apiary gets burned down right around the time Asa allegedly deposed his grandmother the gebirah ("Great Lady").
Cool thought, but why is this in meme /C/ ?
This is neat, but how is it a meme?
Man just needs to look at the moon to mark 28 days
Sometimes it's cloudy. Sometimes you can't tell if that's were 2 or 3 days away from a full moon.
Good trip-up one. Good old periods. Good old not getting your girlfriend pregnant.
Ah yes one of the memes of all time . Also true af.
d e e p t h o u g h t s
yeah, that sounds like an anthropology professor
Yeah, no way to know what gender someone had so we just pick one based on our twisted worldview where some gender must be better than other because reasons.
Not sure why you got down voted because you are absolutely right
If we defaulted to "he or she (they probably)" then things would be better but we simply don't. It is always the man's contribution and it's disappointing
"... I thought this comment of the professor was an interesting eye opener."
"For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil." (Genesis 3:5)
Having your eyes opened to believe nonsense is the goal of such so-called 'education'. For all we know the notches were a tally of successful hunts or a scalp tally. Or maybe the notches were to allow a sinew or leather wrapping to adhere to the bone, possibly being used as a handle for a tool. And who trusts a mere picture being held up as scientific evidence of anything?
Delusional people like to read their preconceived notions into everything. The eugenics supremacists in the education racket tell you that your ancestors were cave-dwelling monkeys so you filter artifacts through that lens and confirm that your ancestors were cave-dwelling monkeys.
Anyone who believes that man began living in caves and tried to make a calendar on a bone is an neanderthal cave-dweller's son.
Savannah dwelling apes, not cave dwelling monkeys.
Derek, halt! Unga unga, no cave cuddles now. Me check bone-calendar, unga bunga, big chance for baby bump. We wait, sky spirits nod-nod. Timing everything, unga!
Sure, that was the way for woman to use a calender…
Lol, mansplain harder! I'm sure it had nothing to do with wanting to know when their next period was due, to, you know, know when their next period was due, and be prepared for that, without it having anything to do with a man.. 🙄🤦♀️😂
A woman invented the windshield wiper. Granted, a man inventes the whole effing rest of the car...