11mo ago

I'm a US citizen, people in other countries, what do you think when you read stories like these about the US health care system?

www.vox.com "Am I a bad person?" Why one mom didn’t take her kid to the ER — even after poison control said to.

The emergency room bill I can’t stop thinking about.

I'd like to know other non-US citizen's opinions on your health care system are when you read a story like this. I know there are worse places in the world to receive health care, and better. What runs through your heads when you have a medical emergency?

A little background on my question:

My son was having trouble breathing after having a cold for a couple of days and we needed to stop and take the time to see if our insurance would be accepted at the closest emergency room so we didn't end up with a huge bill (like 2000$-5000$). This was a pretty involved ~10 minute process of logging into our insurance carrier, and unsuccessfully finding the answer there. Then calling the hospital and having them tell us to look it up by scrolling through some links using the local search tool on their website. This gave me some serious pause, what if it was a real emergency, like the kind where you have no time to call and see if the closest hospital takes your insurance.

271 comments

The one thing even Americans who have health insurance don't realize about single payer healthcare systems, is that we don't worry about it.
We don't consider it when switching jobs, we don't think about it when we're sick, we don't worry about medical bills.... we just go to the doctor/hospital, and worry about getting better or dealing with the work implications of taking time off.
The weight for that piece simply doesn't rest on our shoulders or minds at all.
You've been tricked and brainwashed you into thinking what you have is normal, and it's disturbing how many of you think it's a reasonable way to continue.
- I'm American and trust me, in no way does it feel normal even after living with it my whole life. Simply hearing what you describe - not thinking about it - feels so deeply right and reasonable that it reminds me just how much weight of "this is not normal" we carry around.
- That’s so fucking crazy sounding. It also sounds wonderful. My parents almost lost our house due to medical expenses, and yes they had insurance (here’s the best part - my dad was a disabled veteran). So support the troops, yay!
  Because of that experience, I’ve developed a lifelong almost PTSD about insurance and medical bills - afraid that it will happen again to me now that I’m an adult. I obsess over it. It’s terrible.
  I’m so jealous of those who never have to give it a second thought.
  
  That’s so fucking crazy sounding
  And there's the problem
  It's so fucking normal sounding. Your system is the crazy, horrifying human rights abuse 😅
  
  1 in 4 bankruptcies are military due to medical cost. We only support troops with thoughts and prayers
- Sadly, the brainwashing has been so effective that those who buy it never noticed that those gaslighting people into believing that no government system (eg, single payer) could ever work are the ones (Republicans) doing their best to ensure that government remains as broken as possible.
  More people believe that our system is fucked than those who think this kind of system is normal.
  We're just faced with so many hurdles, gerrymandering, red states that exist only because of minority representation have more power over larger population areas (districts by size and not population, electoral college) ... The majority of the country is merely surviving and the apathy sets in. I remind people that voting fascists out is the only way things are going to change and often the response is "Well, I tried that once and it didn't work." So they stop showing up to vote. Or they buy into the 'both sides' BS and post lame memes on Facebook and Reddit.
  A lot of us really are painfully aware of how fucked it is.
  
  We need to do way more than just voting to defeat fascism
- This is why I don’t understand why corporations aren’t behind it. It would take an enormous load of my HR dept. It would save them so much.
  
  Retention. You'll find the threat of lack of healthcare to be fairly coercive.
  
  Corps actually benefit from workers being worried about leaving. It reduces labour costs.
- Bingo
- You've been tricked and brainwashed you into thinking what you have is normal, and it's disturbing how many of you think it's a reasonable way to continue.
  No, we haven't... Are you not aware how upset most people are over here about this system?
- Yeah, exactly. The most expensive thing about a hospital visit here is the parking.

You pay taxes but get no benefit of them . They are used for subdivise automaker ,wallmart ,meat and dairy lobby and killing ciilvilan in other countries . I don't understand why american are OK with that .
- I pray there comes a time when the people decide what their taxes are spent on. Could be done using a simple form, with a dozen or so broad categories to choose from, submitted with your tax return.
  I bet the results would shock the shit out of the politicians.
  
  I'd like to just start with having to send a check every two weeks instead of allowing them to just deduct it.
  Make people physically pay their tax, that's how you get engagement. And they know that, which is why it's NOT like that.
- It's more famously going towards banks, ISP's, and airlines... Basically all the things we hate the most.

That system is shit and a danger to the people and to the unity a nation needs.
In Germany we don't even think about this system when we are ill - we simply go to the doctor whatever it is, and we call an ambulance if it's necessary. Not a single thought.
- Unless you're a woman though :)
  
  Because?

I mean it's literally one of the good reasons to even have a society. I think whatever the fuck this is, it's more like a good damn competition or something like that. It's insane. Americans are insane for thinking that they are all temporarily inconvenienced millionaires in the making, and seemingly can't understand basic empathy for all those that would be non millionaires. I think money making global corporations are soulless complex machines of torture and warfare that are completely psychopathic entities that will destroy anything or anyone standing between it and profits, and instead of controlling that you keep complaining when those machines end up hurting you. These dark corrupted demonic beings of hatred are also just without any oversight abusing and murdering people in other countries making this a world wide problem. I think your dollar scam has ruined the economy of the entire world by being a particularly self centered grifting scheme that for decades has proven to be out of control and toxic to the entire human race.
- Well yeah, but like, that's just your opinion, man.
  The Dude
  
  The Dude
- It’s actually pretty American not to believe in society. I’m not saying it’s good. But the right of an individual to march off into the wilderness and be left the fuck alone forever is a long-cherished American ideal (whether or not this ever existed).

Orphan Crushing Machine

I stopped having sympathy during the Obama administration. When half of the country will willingly and intentionally fuck themselves over to prove a point, when a political party will reverse course on a life saving piece of legislation because the other side agreed to it, and those same people continue to get elected, it's not worth my emotional energy to give a fuck anymore.
Y'all deserve what you have. It's not good but it's what you want.
- When half of the country will
  Y'all deserve
  Wow that was a quick progression from “half” to “all.” I deserve this because Republicants are insane fucks? Gee thanks. Not that I care whether you care, particularly.
  
  You care enough to comment LoL. If your fee fees are hurt....tell someone who cares.
- Tell that in respect to (ha) Southern Ontario and Montreal to a British Columbian, Albertan, Saskatchewanian, Manitoban, Yukonite, any First Nations Canadian or any resident of Atlantic Canada or the Northwest Territory, and see if they think differently about Ontario-Quebec than most Americans think about the Republican party.
  Oh, did you know 90% of Canadians are well-to-do or upper-middle class residents of Southern Ontario or Montreal who produce less than 10% of Canada's GDP and vote for anything that lets them continue to take advantage of the rest of the country? Yeah, our population density is horrifyingly low AND yet we have a profit-off-of-artificial-scarcity-induced housing shortage? Fuck you for supporting tyranny by majority, it's still possible for the majority to all be in with the rich pricks, whether the minority is 49% or <10%.
  
  You sound jealous that you don't matter. Must suck feeling that way.

Guns are a right, but you can be jailed for getting an abortion. The US is turning into a third world country.
- Actually most third world countries don't have guns as rights. And their laws on abortion vary wildly.
  So the US would be worse than third world.
  
  New achievement unlocked: fourth world

The only way I'd live in the States is if I was making so much money that a 20k medical bill meant nothing to me.
- $480.000 cancer treatment enters the chat.
  
  what. Is this real?
- Well it’s not that it means nothing to me, but my job in the US pays about $30k more than it would in Germany (I can’t speak to other countries). Lots of Germans come to the US to work in my field for that reason (well they used to before all the layoffs). Also my health insurance is free.
  That said, I absolutely still want public healthcare. Not just for the people in my country who desperately need it, but for myself too. Because while my healthcare is “free”, it isn’t really; my salary could be higher otherwise. And I lose coverage if I stop working (actually not really we have programs for that, but still kind of).

It's a so foreign concept for me. Needing to rationalize about going to ER. I feel sorry. People are dying and people are tricked into believing it's the better alternative. But There is a better way, and it's only denied because of greed.
- The institutionalization runs deep.
  The first time I moved out of the US I lived in a socialized medicine country & I just never went to the doctor. My then girlfriend casually went because she wasnt feeling well (a cold), then would go to the pharmacy for a birth control shot (no prescription needed), and finally when I had a fever and a doc came to the house at 2am (we just had to pay the taxi). I had a lengthy stay in the hospital, and a month of rehab, my employer's nurse would stop by the house and give me an injection on his way home. And our son was born in a hospital with private rooms- all i had to pay for was my meals and overnight stay (there was a bed for me), plus the room had a mini bar...no shit.
  We moved back to the US to raise the kids and then out again i to another socialized medicine country and I STILL HESITATE to go to the doctors.
- Yeah... The Trumpers and other idiots are the ones defending this system. We're talking about something like a third of our population, but it fluctuates.
  People outside the US always overestimate these people's opinions for some reason. I think the propaganda machine that is our media works better on foreigners than it does on US citizens. Obviously it works far better than it should on our own people, though...

In Europe the US healthcare system is seen as a joke and medieval. Same for most social services I'm the US. Like somebody else said I stopped feeling sympathy a while ago.

I think third world country.
- I think that's unfair on third world countries
- That would imply not taking a side in WW2.
  No, the US is a developing nation. Still has plenty of ways to go in order to stomp out corruption and the oligarchy running it, and also lower the divide between rich and poor. Only then will they be able to look after their own people the way a real developed nation would.
  But as long as people in the US need a gun in order to feel safe walking around, it will stay a shithole.
  
  I think people in the US use a gun in wrong way.

Shaking my head and glad I'm not living in the US.
A country can decide how to treat people, how to shape the future. I get that nothing is perfect and everything is complicated. But I completely don't get why the US doesn't want to tackle some of the problems. Mainly school shootings, healthcare, social security and a democratic system by today's standards. Maybe the latter is the answer why... And watching documentaries about the rural areas, it seems like the USA is mostly a third world country, except for in the cities.
- The funny thing is that the US actually spends about twice as much on healthcare per capita as other developed countries. The reason that outcomes are so much worse there isn't lack of money.
  
  Oh wow, I didn't know that. Google says $13.493 per person in 2022. And in Germany it's a bit more than $7.000...
  Also things like maternal mortality are WAY worse...
  I mean the USA is bigger and maybe things don't translate exactly from a somewhat densely populated central european country to the vast emptiness of rural Wyoming. I guess an hospital is also something that is subject to economy of scale... But even most northern european countries where doctors come in with helicopters, don't exceed the ~$7.000.
  It is really off for the USA:
  
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_total_health_expenditure_per_capita
  (If that is correct, you could spend half the money on healthcare and also live 3 years longer, on average...)
  
  Yeah, it's not a healthcare system. It's a jobs system and wealth transfer scheme. Insurance companies have the government in their pocket and get employer money, government money, and employee money and transfer it to the already outrageously rich, and all that in between cost (salespeople, billing specialists, HR benefits specialists) is somebody's paycheck.
  That's without consideration of actual fraud, which moves money from the government to the rich without even providing services at all, and is easier to hide in such an outrageously complicated and expensive system.
  
  It's just THAT expensive. An ambulance is 2-3k minimum. Just for showing up. Going to an ER, talking to reception and then giving up and leaving? That'll be a $1200 bill, to NOT see a doctor.
  I don't even know the line where I would voluntarily to go the hospital, knowing it's sacrificing the next 10-20 years of all my extra income. Would it be when I put my thumb thru a grinding disc on my angle grinder, cutting it clean in two right thru the entire nail?
  Naw, hell no. I would have cut my thumb tip off with a chef's knife and cauterized It if I thought it wouldn't heal on its own, rather than spend an app $15,000 I don't have. Took about 10 weeks to heal.
  I know how to fight off an abscess tooth without antibiotics. It takes about 8 days, of constant stabbing, arching your back pain. Ive broken knuckles just to have a different pain to focus on. No one should know how to do this in 2024. Abscess teeth kill. Kennewick Man, y'know, the Popsicle? That's what killed him. My story isn't unique, America is a third world country with iPhones. Don't visit. I wish the world would boycott every American company until we learn how to have a civil society.
- We WANT too. Gun control, Medicare for all, and SS all have majority support for reform, across the parties. Broad support. Multiple studies have shown that public opinion has ZERO effect on legislation getting passed. Our oligarchy doesn't give three shits to the wind about actual Americans. I've never met a group of people who, clearly, hate almost everyone they see. At the end of the balance sheet, actions speak louder, and the group most responsible for pain, suffering and loss of quality American years lived are the 1%. Their renumeration of revolutionary inequality is simultaneously equal amounts astonishing and disgusting.
  If I wrote out a synopsis of the economy today and somehow got it back to my WW2/Korea vet grandfather he would've thought the USSR won the cold war.
  His last words to me, i had asked him about WW2, and said I wanted to join the military like him - I liked my grandad better than my parents - and he told me "you don't join the military. I fought so you and your siblings don't have too" and then he made me promise that I'd go to college instead.
  I did as he asked tho looking around now, I feel like no matter what I do, war is gonna find me.
  Which if we're being brutally honest, would be a return to the norm. Historically war touches everyone's life. We're blessed to live under the Pax Americana, but greed has rotted out the essence at its core and when the last leg falls...ever seen that movie Miracle Mile? You should watch it.
  
  Thanks for the suggestion. Of course Netflix doesn't have this 1988 movie... Let me see if I can pirate it... And thanks for teaching me the term "Pax Americana".
  The USA is somewhat far away from the wars it is or has been engaged with. I think the situation is a bit different than for other countries. That is also a thing I don't quite get about the USA. Back in the cold war enormous sums of money were invested to fight the USSR. And nowadays Putin wants to revive that and the USA really struggles to represent their interests. I mean the USA isn't tied as closely to eastern europe as for example a central european country where I live is. But there are some economic interests at play and the USA also benefits from a stable eastern europe and Russia/China not wreaking havoc in the world. This time it's not even American soldiers who have to die in that battle. And the USA could advertise for their arms industry and make some profit, too. But all of that is overshadowed by national politics and it seems to cripple politics and working towards mid-term and long-term interests.
- GOP steps into the chat.

I'm from the US, and I moved to Canada for 4 years for work. As a young adults, my partner and I had revolving medical debt. Not a ton, but enough to make it annoying. A couple thousand here and there. It felt like I was always had a hospital bill that we were trying to pay off. When we moved to Canada it was weird for us because, just as another person in here stated, you just didn't have to think about going to the doctor. I had major stomach surgery, we had a kid, we got monetary support for our other kid who's on the spectrum to take them to therapy... We got gtube supplies, meds for infections.... Anything we needed was covered. Not once did I think oh man, this is going to wreck us. Well, that's not true, I thought that the first time I took my oldest to the doctor to get an xray because we thought they might have broken a bone, but that was just a thought and it didn't actually cost us a penny.
Every time we went to our PCP, a specialist, or emergency, the only thing we had to pay for was parking and maybe a few bucks for pain meds. But each time we had to get pills it was less than $5 to fill the prescription. One of the kids fell and hit their head? Straight to the doctor. A cold that's been taking too long to go away on its own? To the doctor!
Now we are back in the US, and I just paid off another medical bill because my insurance only covered a small amount of an ECG, because they wanted to check make sure my kids heart was strong enough to put her on medication, and that the meds wouldn't kill her.
We should move to a single payer medical system.
- I regularly fear for the Americans I have connected to since the days of covid stretched my group of friends more into online spaces.
  One got beaten to shit by a bad boss when he tried to retrieve his tips. All at once he had injuries that kept him out of work, mental trauma and legitimate fear for his safety that meant he couldn't return to his job but also because work and insurance are tied down there he was in an immediate precarity. He couldn't return to work, the cops showed active disinterest in helping him press charges and his hospital bills blew through his savings... And because he had technically quit there was no EI safety net either.
  I was struck so hard by the dystopian nature of it all. There is so much under the Canadian system which is just never a factor. I didn't realize how free I actually was because I had never tied my considerations of my health to what job I chose or whether I was unemployed. I was used to my medical services bill just being this tiny expense I had set to autopay that was so small I didn't even have to think about. They don't even charge that any more.
  All I ever had to do to get help was ask and it was freely given. I had no cause to ever question exactly how much of a blessing... How much of a privilege... that actually was.
- Living in Europe, it's easy to forget how much is covered by the national health insurance. I just had one tooth fixed, another pulled a few months ago, and getting a dental X-ray done in a few weeks. All 100% covered. My whole family got their COVID vaccines for free. My grandmother has issues with mobility, so the hospital sent a car to our house with her vaccines for free. I can just take a bike to the doctor and get a diagnosis or papers for further examination for free.
  This is why I'm happy to pay taxes. I know that crooked politicians take their unfair share, but it also funds public services like healthcare.

The US healthcare system has provided me with lots of entertainment value via John Oliver's Last Week Tonight. I like it for that
For real though, despite being a software engineer who could find a very lucrative job in the US in a heartbeat, there's no way in hell I'll ever even remotely consider it, and the healthcare system is one of the reasons.
- As a software engineer, you’d likely get a well paying job that included better health insurance than most people get. Also you’d be more likely to be able to afford the gaps that would still exist. You would not be affected by half these horror stories
  
  Not OP, but living in the system is supporting the system so I prefer to just live somewhere else. Going to the States for vacation is plenty to experience the cool things
  
  If this person doesn't have white skin, isn't christian or gender conforming there's a whole host of other horror stories that apply tho.

Honestly, I am so glad my parents didn't move to the USA and moved to the UK instead. Me and my sister had several health issues including asthma, food allergies, broken bones playing sports, and as a result several hospital and doctor visits. Considering my parents were self employed shop keepers, I don't know if we'd be alive, let alone what sort of life we would have had. Then also having to pay for college would've been tricky. Having so few work holidays also completely sucks!
We are now both professionals with great jobs, paying lots of taxes and volunteer a lot to try to give back. Would that be possible in the USA - I honestly have no idea! Would we move to the USA - absolutely no way! We'd both actually earn lots more money in the USA in the same role but factoring in health and happiness, it's not worth it.
When you hear "greatest country on earth" and "the American dream", I think anybody in Western countries really roll their eyes. It's not a utopia here in the UK but nobody claims it to be, and stories like this just prove we are better off here.
However, we know the people themselves are great and don't deserve this position. We feel sorry for you and wish part of your population would travel and see things for themselves to push for changes back home.
In the UK, we are terrified that we will end up in the same position as our out of touch political elite and ultra wealthy would love to copy this.

I'm a union autoworker, my health insurance is premium-free and covers pretty much whatever in exchange for a 25 dollar copay. We need stronger unions in this country. If you have a job, unionize it. The government has proven to be wholly ineffective at providing for the common good. They will never help you. Help yourself by unionizing your workplace.
- No, we just need universal healthcare.
  Not being bankrupted by an accident or emergency isnt a privilege that should only belong to the rich or well employed.

I'm just baffled. It seems unnecessarily cruel.

Our son had a pseudo-croup attack, when he was about two. We have a number here in my country that you can call and they try to figure out your next steps. Since he was so young they pretty quickly told us to call an ambulance. Two paramedics came fairly quick and ordered an emergency doctor to the scene since they wanted to give him some medication they couldn't give him on their own.
We were a little apologetic because we weren't sure if calling them was warranted. But they were super nice and said we shouldn't worry, it was their job and they'd rather drive to cases like this, were things go well then the other way round.
We gave them our insurance card, they left, and everything was fine.
Never in the whole process have I thought, oh my, I hope this isn't going to cost too much. That is an awful thought. Our medical system here is far from perfect and I fear it's going to get worse but it gives me a piece of mind that I don't have to worry to go broke over it.
And the way families are insured really works well. You work and all your children and your partner (if they don't work) are insured through you. No changes in payment, no questions (apart from: are they earning any money) asked.

On 4chan /k/ a while back, an American ND'ed his gun into his hand and asked the board whether he should go to the hospital or not. It boggled my mind that he was having this conversation and I am from a 3rd world nation.

I didn't read the article, but I read your story, OP. Your situation sounds shitty. As a Canadian, we take our kid to the doc when we feel it's necessary. We live in a rural community and we don't have a family doctor, so that usually means a trip to the ER, but we consider the cost in time (ie, how many hours will I have I take off work), rather than money.
I think it would be fair to say that we take our kids to the doc too often. I'm not proud of that, but I'll happily pay taxes for other parents to do the same.
Having to think about price when your boy is having difficulty breathing sounds dystopian.
- If you feel you need to take them, it's not too often.
  
  I agree wholeheartedly. That's why I'm happy my taxes pay for me (and others) to hit up their doc.
- Same story here in Australia.
  That said our hospitals are in a bad state post covid and needs a lot of TLC

We wonder if that could happen to our healthcare services and what steps we can take to prevent it.
"Voting out Tory scum" is about what I'm left with.
- It absolutely could happen on that side of the pond, and yeah. Globally we should be voting out anyone that wants to privatize healthcare. The US experiment has clearly been a failure for 99.99999999% of us.

Honestly, I feel scared because it's actually something that is being exported here.
I feel so sorry for you Americans, but I don't blame you. I don't think this is something you can address by simply voting, the same way we here can't do nothing by voting in order to stop the privatization of everything. This are scary times.

Why does your government not want a healthy work force? Healthy workers are more productive. Even with the right wing focus of your entire government, having healthy workers just feels like a no brainer.
- Here is my perspective on the answer to your question:
  Our government is not functional. It is not that it doesn't "want" a healthy work force, but that it isn't capable of setting any sort of a policy.
  The last time the US made any meaningful change in healthcare policy was under Obama. My impression of what happened is that there was a brief (2 yr) moment when the Presidency, House, and Senate were all controlled by the same party. The Democrats passed "health reform" which was basically the Republican health care reform package from 4 years earlier.
  In the 13 years since then, the only Republican position on health care has been that Obama's "ACA" law is "bad". There is literally no suggestion of what else would be better. (I'm not counting the anti-abortion laws as "health care" -- they are seen here as a moral issue, not a health care one.) The Democrats' position has been a mix of "we shouldn't let the Republicans take us back to something WORSE!" and "the whole system is broken and needs to be replaced".
  We have two problems. First, our government is structured so that it cannot easily accomplish anything, at least without cooperation between the two opposed parties. Secondly, one of the two parties is insane and wants to destroy the government (and has enough electoral support to win almost half the time).
- Additionally the private insurance market means the cost of hiring someone is dramatically higher. Medicare for all would probably make the vast majority of companies more profitable. It's such a no brainer for everyone outside the healthcare industry.
  
  Not only that but say I run a bakery, why should I have to devote a crazy amount of time learning medical insurance speak? That's time that I should be spending thinking of new things I can sell. That's the whole point behind specialization. I don't give two-girls-one-cup shits about the ins and outs of ANY insurance policy. I buy what I need and I need it to work when I need it. My interests begins and ends there. and that's a REASONABLE position to take.
  Why are we allowing ourselves to be extorted by medical insurance muckbangs?
  The whole industry deserves doxxing and relentless public shaming. I'm not advocating violence. Like protesting outside assistant mid-managers houses. If identities got stolen and credit scores ruined...well, I'm not condoning it but I'm not gonna lose sleep over it either. Make the whole industry undesirable to work in.
  
  I think my company's pays about $600 a month for my insurance and I pay about $150 for premiums. It's insane.
- It's because this system works well for wealthy people. And most of the idiots who like this system are either wealthy, or idiots with "temporarily embarrassed millionaire" syndrome.
  Those in power (Trump, then Biden) specifically ran campaigns against radical changes to this system. Many of us tried to drum up support for Bernie four years ago... Alas, it failed.
- Also a worker that doesn't have to waste time on bureaucracy and healthcare considerations has more time to be productive.
  
  Both of you are thinking in terms of efficiency and not control. You're dependent on your job to get health care. Lose your job? Better not get sick or hurt.
  Of course the new thing is to not give employees too few hours so you legally don't have to provide health insurance for them and make them pay for it themselves. Which is much more expensive.
  Sure there's Medicaid, but first you have to qualify. Then there's different parts that cover different things and not others. You may also still have copays, deductibles, and other charges you still have to worry about.

When I need medical care, I go to the doctor, it is not a question about if I can afford it, I just go.
Back in 2019 I got sick like hell with mycoplasma, I was out of work for a month and a half, and even stayed two nights in hospital.
I never worried about my job, just focused on getting better.
At the end you do still have to pay here in Sweden, but in total, several doctors vists, two nights in hospital, antibiotics, food in hopsital and the medicine from the pharmacy cost me about the equivalent of 150USD.
So while not 100% free to me, I did not even once think about the cost.
- To put that in perspective I have a nonemergency going on right now. I need to replace my CPAP. To do so I need a new prescription for one. In order to do that I need to go to my primary doctor to get a referral to a sleep specialist. That appointment cost me $250. The sleep specialist basically told me yup I need a CPAP just like the past 7 years. That cost me $370. So now I've paid $620 in order to pay $800-$1000 for a new CPAP.

That story is horrific, I can't imagine living like that.
When I have a medical emergency (or even if it's just a possibility) then I go straight to the ER. I might have a small administration cost to pay, but it's easy enough to manage that I don't have to give it a second thought.
My job isn't linked to my healthcare, that sounds like insane leverage.

I can't believe governments and companies put such a "price" on people's health. I must say the news about the US Health System is also echoed by all the other US companies I have dealt with in my professional capacity. Profits before people and sales before outcomes.
I/We avoid using them when we can...

I usually shrug and tell myself you could collectively fix it if you wanted to.
- You underestimate just how propagandized we are over here. The State hardly needs to invest in propaganda when "grind/hustle" culture exists. Are you in a position where you have to choose between health or financial ruin? That's on you for not hustling hard enough.
  
  You underestimate just how propagandized we are over here.
  At a work event the other day health care came up, and one of my coworkers said something like "But in europe you have to wait six months to see a doctor." I started to say "And in the US, you get slow AND expensive" but decided to just hit the "Let's not talk about this at a work event" button instead.
  
  "if you wanted to"

I'm Australian, I hate the way our government treats our healthcare system and continues to make decisions in favour of companies and to the detriment of the Australian people, but holy hell is our system better than in the US.
Each time I read an article like this I'm glad to live here. This is never a decision we would need to make, we wouldn't even question going to the ER in a case like this.

Been in both the healthcare systems of the US and several European healthcare systems for many years.
I honestly don't know why Americans accept their healthcare system. It's insane. Everyone's worried about healthcare all the time. People pay excessively out of pocket for almost no coverage. And God forbid you get sick. Not only will you have to deal with the illness, you're also staring down a possible bankruptcy.
Edit: In Europe, you just go to the emergency room or the doc or the hospital. No need to look up anything. In most places you have a small healthcare ID card that you show when you check in. Many systems don't have any co-pays or deductibles. You just go and done. Some systems have a small co-pay for hospital stays or other services. In Germany, the co-pay for a hospital stay is €10 per day with a max of €280 per calendar year. In Denmark, there are no co-pays or deductibles for any healthcare service except dental. In Germany, most dental services are included without co-pays.
If you're an EU citizen and you need medical care in a different EU country than where you reside, you have a special EU health card that gives you the right to the same healthcare services as a citizen of the country where you are seeking treatment.
- I honestly don’t know why Americans accept their healthcare system.
  We don't have enough money to pay off our lawmakers compared to the healthcare industry's bribes.
- If you're an EU citizen and you need medical care in a different EU country than where you reside, you have a special EU health card that gives you the right to the same healthcare services as a citizen of the country where you are seeking treatment.
  Wow. EU, I belive in you!

I do like that in my country, if there's an emergency, you don't need to think about it. You just get help without fear of being financially crippled for life.
I feel bad for Americans that you can't easily get medical help, even in emergencies.

Man, I live in shit country where opposition is killed every february and ruling party of oligarchs have been destroying my country's healthcare system for last 20 years, but I'm glad commies built it tough.
I've heard you even pay for ambulance.
- You do. And not a small amount, like an Uber. Hundreds of dollars, regardless of how far it goes. I'm sure there are markups for care received, but I've not been in one to know.
  
  *out of pocket
  
  Why doesn't uber (or equivalent) do ambulances?

that your country is the actual shit hole. The worst part is when people who do work, and have insurance get denied care or endebted because something is "out of range" or whatever the fuck it is you yankees call it.
I live in LATAM, and healthcare is good. I had ... "worker contribution" (mutualista) tier healthcare and private medical. Mutualista worked adequately, got my needs met, but the centers were a bit spaced out, ironically due to market competition. Similar problem with the private medical insurance, but it comes with lots of fancy bells and whistles (telemedicine, medical history app, wide variety of specialists to resolve issues etc).
I pay about $100 (monthly) and it covers everything. I never have to think about going to hospital, except "Let me see if I can avoid it by doing a quick video call"
There's also universal healthcare that covers everyone not in mutualistas or private medicine. It's not as well regarded, but at least it's there. If you are making tax contributions, you're on mutualista tier healthcare anyway. I don't think anyone hesitates to call ambulances or react properly in the case of a medical emergency.
What use is having 8 different burger chains when you get squashed by a train and you yell at people to not call an ambulance so you don't go bankrupt?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3P4LgpgLrA
- From LATAM too and the main thing i think is: fuck. USA has always been very influential towards us. A lot of people want to imitate it because they only know it from the movies and shows or from what famous Americans share about their livestyles. And the right wings leaders over here are eager to play by their playbook. Trump got elected and now the more fringe right wing candidates are being elected here and while their eccentricities dominate the headlines the people under them work to undermine our free healthcare and public education. Some Latín Americans think it can't happen in their country... until it happens.
  
  Fucking Milei, most of his supporters are wielding the gadsen flag. What the hell does that flag have to do with Argentina??

First:
I think it was a wise thing with the activated charcoal. I think that you also did what was best in your situation.
I'd like to know other non-US citizen's opinions on your health care system are
A very bad opinion. The health care system is one if the greatest shames in your country (after racism and the adoration of excessive wealth).

I saw a tiktok recently with an american explaining that people just don't finish the course of antibiotics so they have an emergency stash. FACEPALM.
- You think this is fucked. My son is type 1 diabetic here (Canada). In America people routinely ration insulin because of the cost
  For those not in the know, a diabetic needs insulin constantly to survive. Failure to meet this requirement introduces a laundry list of complications that all end in death.
  Despite this, they play Russian roulette with their lives not because they want to but because their government does not care about them.
  It's infuriating.
  Also, worth noting that if you're in the know, red Cross has deployed in America multiple times in recent memory. Something that used to be for "3rd world" countries deployed in the richest country in the world.
  America is a failed state. People continue argue over the semantics of that definition but I will continue to argue it's justified.
- Isn't that how antibiotic resistance develops?
  
  exactly. :(
  
  It is that pesky 99.9% effectiveness. That 0.1% that survived did so because they had some minor resistance. Rinse and repeat a few hundred thousand times and you have forced evolution. It doesn't even take that long to happen in a population with the over-prescription rate we have had here. Something about the people in charge being undereducated religious ideologs who see expertise as a threat or fraud because experts make mistakes and learn from them.
  
  Not really. Antibiotic resistance is mostly a thing due to how over prescribed it is, not from an extreme minority of idiots not finishing their dose
- Back in the day I had a friend who ran essentially a fish dispensary and had a good connection on quality fish antibiotics. I would stock up on a bunch of stuff whenever they were making an order.
  My numbers are surely off but I was paying something like $5 for ~500 amoxacillan, where at a rite aid or CVS you'd be paying, what $50 for 14 pills. The same ingredients, the same markings, the same thing. Just a lot cheaper for fish.

We moved from America to see Asia years ago. We were just talking last week about how racist we still catch ourselves being. We have a sick relative at home who we talked about moving here. They'd be close to us so we could help. And healthcare here is cheap/free often and pretty good.
But there's part of me that just thinks American = superior. No matter how long I live here I'm not sure it will ever go away. It's been psychopathically programmed into me. "Yeah it's expensive, but at least you're getting a good doctor". (I've had awful and great doctors in both countries) It's infuriating to realize.
- Good on you for realising though. I mean from an outsiders perspective America tends to push the exceptionalism narrative pretty hard, live there long enough and it'll get into you sooner or later.
- You were conditioned, you’re not being racist. It would be racist if, say, you lived in the US and had an Asian doctor and demanded a white one.
  Also:
  it’s been psychopathically programmed into me
  This really made me laugh. It’s hard to describe what I’m imagining, but, remember in the first matrix where they “download” information via needle in the back of the head? And you know how a video game character looks when the game is glitching? Like, one character is just freaking out, all of their animations happening at once? Kinda like two cartoon characters fighting in a cloud of smoke and limbs and heads just flying out random places? Well, I imagined a mixture of those two (three?) things. And dammit if I didn’t get a hearty chuckle out of it.

I think I hope the right wing political parties where I live don't manage to dismantle what little functioning public healthcare we do still have.
A friend of mine recently moved to the USA from NZ and was saying the healthcare is generally better if you're employed and get decent insurance. And while that's true for non emergency stuff at least in an emergency you don't need to stress about whether the ambulance takes you to an in network hospital in NZ.
- Your friend just hasn't gotten bitten yet. You could have a million in the bank, cash, get sick and burn it up in no time. I blow basically every dollar I make because I think you'd have to be an idiot to grind and save up, unless you're really wealthy, it can all go poof in an instant thru no fault of your own.
  I ain't suffering for the chance I might get to stop working now. I'll enjoy my scraps now, and when it gets too be too much, I'll paint the ceiling red.

American here, we have amassed more wealth than Rome at its peak, yet a disgusting number of our citizens live in third world conditions. Another disgusting amount of people live in relative comfort, but also in impossible debt that threatens them daily. They will be homeless soon, and they know it.
Our wealth inequality is worse than France before the Revolution, and it increases constantly. The wealthy don’t care. They just want more. They’ll burn the entire fucking planet to ash if it makes them a little more profit.
And Americans pay their utility bills with credit cards. And their grocery bills with credit cards. Their wages go to rent and booze/smoke to get by. Look at the mental health numbers in America and factor in the people worried about getting fired if they admit they’re struggling and ask for help. Factor in the ones who don’t have health insurance and can’t even ask for the help they need.
It’s a fucking nightmare here. And it’s getting worse every day. Trump is going to win for a reason.
- That was an appalling wrong turn at the end there.
  
  I didn't say I was happy about it. People are desperate. They're going to vote for chaos knowingly, because the status quo has become unbearable, and the Democrats have decided that pretending there isn't a problem is a good campaign strategy.
- We haven't amassed shit. The wealthy have stolen it all.

I remember an other US post of a guy who had done everything he was supposed to. Had insurance, had savings, had a well paid job.
Nonetheless, his whole family was in financial ruins when his wife got cancer. They had to move from the house and everything!
The fact that you don't think a $2-5k bil is a lot, just proves that this system does not work, especially because some people would not even be able to pay that back for years!
To me, this is hopeless. I'd much rather pay half of my salary in taxes and be sure that if something happens, it will be the only thing that happens and that I'll be taken good care of (and even my family will be offered help to cope). And in topnof that I get free education, 5 weeks free with pay, over 20 weeks paid maternity leave and pension. To me that sounds like a much better deal. The fact that others get the same by paying less does IMO not make it a worse deal.
The fact that you feel like the
- You have people here in the U.S. who resent paying for health insurance "because I'm healthy." As if viruses care. Or car crashes. Or cancer.
  And you tell them that and they just wave you away as if they're totally immune from those sort of things.
  Edit: Sorry, I realize I wasn't clear here. I want universal healthcare. I'm talking about financially stable people in the U.S. that can afford health insurance but instead just go to the ER, driving up wait times and costs at the expense of poor people.
  
  Well, if insurance isn't going to help anyway, as in the example above, I understand why they don't. If you get financially ruined by getting sick, it doesn't really matter how ruined you get. At some point you'd give up and accept that there is no way out of that pit. That said, even breaking a leg would ruin you, if you don't have insurance, whereas the example above was substantially more serious.
  Personally, I have smashed my thumb once, when I was younger, and recently my knee. Both times needed surgery, and were pretty complicated, but I had no stress about expenses or even concerns about consequenses at work. Everything was free, and I got paid my regular sallary while I was recovering. This is without insurance, in a country with free healthcare!

I was offered by my employer to move to the USA with the husband and children to set up a local team for a few years and then return to Europe. Didn’t have questions about the pay, housing, nope. I had questions about healthcare. I usually end up once a year in the ER for myself, last stint was a miscarriage over Christmas with 6 ER meetings but I have a shit ankle and break various bones on the yearly because I don’t pay attention to where I walk. Add children: usual sickness plus all the stupid shit they do and end up in the ER for. Asked is the insurance had a zero deductible or something similar to what we have. Long story short, I didn’t want to leave our healthcare system and we stayed in Europe as all they offered wasn’t up to par with what we got.
- Usually the jobs in the US pay better. I know people who moved from Europe to expensive areas in the US. They take their kids to the doctors all the time. It's worth it.
  Also, you can just go to urgent care instead of the hospital. If you are going there a lot, you just learn which ones take your insurance.
  
  The pay was on par with NYC finance salaries but due to social inflation, i didn’t see how it was worth it to move due to potential medical costs getting out of hand.
  
  Just curious- if I get hit by a car and it shatters my femur and I don't have insurance, which urgent care facility is going to allow me to do the necessary months of physical therapy I can't afford?
  
  US jobs need to pay better for the chance of sickness and bankruptcy you'll face

We feel lucky we're not there.

I live in a western European country. A few anecdotes to illustrate what Americans don't get about healthcare:
I was involved in a serious accident and the passenger in my car was taken to hospital in an ambulance and had to have scans, etc. It ended up costing 1000 Euros.
One of my teeth needed to be replaced by a dental implant. I had it removed, a bone graft was necessary, then a few months later they drilled a metal pin into the jaw bone, then they placed a crown on it. The pin was Swiss made, the dentist did a 3d scan of the inside of my mouth for the crown. I had a few return visits. It ended up costing me 3000 Euros total, but I specifically spread the appointments around the new year: november - january. This was a big deal for me, as I was unemployed and needed to dip into my already small savings.
I had a headache, so I bought myself some paracetamol(tylenol?) at the drug store. 50 for 2 euros.
Sounds ok, right?
Here's the thing that Americans don't get. These are all fully private prices.
The first incident, I received a bill because it would have to be paid by the other party's insurance. 1000 Euros was the fully private cost without government intervention. The accident had happened just across the border in another country.
The second anecdote, this was also the fully private cost. Dental implants are not covered by healthcare. I have supplemental private dental insurance (20 Euros per month), which has a maximum deductable of 2000 Euros per year. Spreading it out meant I ended up spending only a few hundred euros, after I received money from my insurance a few weeks later.
The US system isn't just absurdly expensive for people who aren't insured, it's absurdly expensive compared to fully private healthcare in plenty of developed countries.
Hell, have a look at how much it costs to get plastic surgery in the US. A boob job is likely to cost you less than a visit to the ER, despite the latter being a far more involved and expensive operation.
It seems obvious to me that a lot of price gouging and anti-competitive behaviour is going on in US healthcare, and simply regulating (not privatising) properly would already make things far more affordable. How else can you explain healthcare costs per capita being up to three times as high as comparably developed countries, but outcomes often being worse? Healthcare shouldn't have to cost this much. The healthcare industry can make a reasonable profit while charging far more reasonable prices.
TLDR: you're getting ripped off, but you have no choice in the matter, because what are you going to do if it's an emergency? You can't just leave the country.

I used to be horrified and outraged. Now I just think it's hilarious. No problem, cause you got the 2nd amendment, right? You can get all the health care you need by just holding up a hospital. Haha.
I have learned that whenever something doesn't make sense about the US, it is racism. When segregation was declared unconstitutional, the southern states vowed "massive resistance". The baddies can also riot and mobilize civil society. They privatized what they could to thwart the overreach of the tyrannical government. People are naturally selfless, in that they are willing to suffer to hurt the right people. I fear this insanity is also spreading in Europe, as people are becoming aware of immigration. People do not vote in their own interest if it might benefit "the other", but they do vote against it if it might hurt "the other".
Of course, rational self-interest is also a factor. The US spends ~17% of its GDP on health care, compared to ~13% in Germany on second place. This is despite the fact that it has a younger population and does not cover everyone. So, yeah, those evil corporations again. But, maybe not just "them". That's also a lot of white collar jobs and you can see in AI threads how people feel when those are threatened.

You know what I just fucking love?
People in the U.S. who say that it's fine if poor people don't have insurance because they can just go to the emergency room.
Not just because of stories like this, but because you can't go to the ER for chemotherapy.
Meanwhile, I have supposedly good insurance and have well over $10,000 in medical debt. I'm going to the Mayo Clinic in March, so that's going to soar.
Please invade us, Canada. Or Mexico. I'm easy.

Most of the time we don't think about it, because anything medical often comes with its own stress, so just thinking about that is front of mind.
It's only after the dust settles and we're all back home and safe that we might say something like "whew glad that's over! Can you imagine if we had to worry about money on top of that?"
Truly once you're used to single payer, the American alternative seems like lunacy. I cannot imagine the stress of combining some if life's biggest medical decisions with financial considerations
I'd go on but my socials timer is about to go

The emotional reaction I get to these stories is hard to put into words. It's a mix of deep sadness and incandescent rage. I just can't imagine being in that position and not wanting to firebomb a politician's house.
My little girl had a very high fever the other night and we were really worried about her, so we called the nurse on call hotline who advised us to wait and go to the urgent care centre in the morning unless she got suddenly worse overnight, then to head to emergency. It was all stressful enough just worrying about how sick she was. I can't imagine how much worse it would be having to worry about paying for any of those services on top of that.

I literally use the horror-stories about the US health care system to counter the bullcrap peddled by the white supremacist, pro-neocolonialism and pro-privatisation crowd here in South Africa.
Of course, it's a pretty moot point, really - our entire political establishment seems dead-set on dismantling and sabotaging what little remains of our tattered public infrastructure anyway to facilitate their corrupt dealings with foreign creditors. They only seem to differ on whether to do it slow or fast.

I'm not sure. I get the impression that the American culture contains the promise that you will succeed if you try, so perhaps people think that if they can't afford private healthcare insurance or pay their medical bills then it's their own fault. Coming from the UK I would be completely outraged if I had to pay and I think most other people here would be too. I don't think you can have both private healthcare and a stable state in an unequal economy because if enough of your minions & customers and get sick or die you lose the big leather armchair.
- I don't know anyone who thinks it's their own fault they can't afford healthcare. I know plenty of people who would probably say it is ones own fault when one can't afford healthcare. Which is a meaningless distinction in every way except the one that could change it...

In some ways America is a third world country. Healthcare is a fundamental human right, full stop.

One thing that's different out that there is no such thing as not being able to pay for health insurance. You are required by law to be insured. This also means the government mostly covers it for you if you can't.
You may have to pay out of pocket for the first few hundred euros when something happens, but insurance covers the rest. There's no way a person's life savings would disappear overnight because of a medical issue. I'd rather die than pay what I sacrificed 30+ years to save up for.
- That's similar to how it works in Democratic states in the US. It's more expensive, but there's no such thing as "not being able to afford insurance". It's required by law and subsidies make the premiums low for poor people. Although you may not have a huge choice in doctors, you will get medical care.
  If anyone from the US complains, that they "can't afford insurance" ask them where they live. I guarantee that state is run by Republicans.
  
  I make between 60-100k a year, (sorry, I know that's a wide range, but I rather not be specific) and I can't afford insurance worth having. The only plans without a 10k out of my pocket before they cover anything at all started at $450/ month. I ended up with a plan that covers nothing until I spend like 5 grand out of pocket. Just shy of $300/mo.
  But, I live in a red state, so maybe you're not wrong. Private Insurance for healthcare is still an assinine idea in general high.
  
  You can afford insurance and still go bankrupt.
  "Medical expenses directly cause 66.5% of bankruptcies, making it the leading cause for bankruptcy. Additionally, medical problems that lead to work loss cause 44% of bankruptcies"
  Blue state cab be better..
  But these stats are concerning. More herehttps://www.retireguide.com/retirement-planning/risks/medical-bankruptcy-statistics/#:~:text=Medical%20expenses%20directly%20cause%2066.5,loss%20cause%2044%25%20of%20bankruptcies.

Thoughts and prayers!

I can just explain the mindset, and then you can draw your conclusions: When people get sick, they evaluate whether it is bad/concerning enough as to be worth the hassle of making time to go to the doctor.
Now the situation is getting increasingly worse every year, because the public health system is underfunded, and every year more so, so that private alternatives look much better... So that rich people and/or private health interests, can use their wealth to "argue" (paid propaganda is cheapest) that the public healthcare is not adequate, and should be further defunded... Doctors literally chose between having morals/principles or non-insane working hours and higher pay. So, we're headed in the same direction, for sure. The US just serves as the example of: take that path to its conclusion, and that's how fucked up it can get. Hopefully, when our public health service simply collapses within next 10 years, we manage to reach the correct conclusions, and not double down on the same stupidity.
But, people still selfishly vote for their own interests, or dumb enough to be convinced regardless. Humans sucks. Fingers crossed.

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