Biden Warns Israel Not to Occupy Gaza

They know that the worst that will happen is a stern warning. "Don't do that again, but it was justified. But don't do it... OK, just a little bit, but still."

"We're telling you not to do this thing, and we assure you all we'll ever do about you still doing it is to tell you again not to do it whilst carrying on helping you to do it"

"Here I go killin' again!"

That's been happening for decades and just last week they starting displacing 1MM more. So I don't think "next" is the right word.

Turning it into the world's largest open air prison is occupation.

It's too late. None of the state parties have any of the setup done for a primary. Once an incumbent president (of either party) declares they're running again their party automatically backs them. I just feel lucky we have incumbent primaries for Congress.

The USA could end homelessness or hunger (and maybe both) nationally for the amount of money we sent to Israel each year.

Haven't they done it twice before? Something like 2006 and 2014?

Death is kinda irreversible too

Agreed. Just needed to point this out

Not comparable. Israel is an ally, and needs our funding. Russia has been an advocacy or "enemy of my enemy" type more or less for a hundred years

Because Israel already occupies Gaza and other Palestinian areas.

Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005, where the hell are you getting your information?

I imagine your perspective also changes if the missiles were landing and killing people, innocent civilians all around you, your house, hospitals, etc. That's what it's like for the people in Gaza. It also looks pretty suspicious when there's lots of immigrants in Israel and mostly Palestinians in a separate cordoned off area (kinda like an apartheid state).

Thank you for adding it. It boils down to regular people being hurt, and as an outsider I feel helpless because there doesn't seem to be a good solution, just less bad ones.

Like there's constantly a few kids ruining everything for the rest of us.

I wrote this long ass comment for another person but I want to put it here too. Hamas having bunkers in a densely populated area under the city is not a "war crime". The whole thing with Hamas using human shields by setting up camp inside Gaza is BS.

What I mean to say is that when people say "human shields", they mean when civilians are forced into crossfire to protect the enemy troops. However, there exists the notion of "proximity shielding".

If you check the Wikipedia page for human shields:

Authors Neve Gordon and Nicola Perugini, elaborating on their book, Human Shields: A History of People in the Line of Fire, discuss "proximate shields", humans as shields merely due to proximity to belligerents and assert that this type has become "by far the most prominent type of shield in contemporary discourse". They say that the proximate shielding accusation has been used by States to cover-up war crimes against civilian populations and that human rights organizations frequently fail to question this charge which they claim is being improperly used to justify civilian deaths.[7]

There are several pieces that discuss this idea, but here are some.

In this analysis piece of proximity shielding, we read:

Our research suggests that human rights and humanitarian organizations have been complicit with this framing exercise and that it is urgent to have a frank conversation about human shields and the legal and political implications of the human shielding accusation. Both in our book and in several academic articles, we have shown that hi-tech States spend considerable resources on media campaigns and mobilize legal and military expertise to justify their use of lethal violence in cities where civilians are trapped.[ii] We describe how human shields, and particularly the charge of proximate shielding, are being widely used by States and their militaries to justify civilian deaths in asymmetric conflicts, and how it has become a major tool in what we have called the ‘erosion’ of the civilian. **

If you turn your eyes back to the wiki page I first linked under the section on Israel and Palestine:

Israel has used the charge, in what has been termed its 'infowar' on social media,[56] to explain the high ratio of civilian vs military casualties in its conflict with Gaza. In Operation Cast Lead 100 Gazans died for every Israeli, and the civilian ratio was 400 Gazans to 1 Israeli. Israeli spokesmen explained the difference by alleging that Hamas used civilians as shields. It has been argued that no evidence has come to light proving these claims.[57][58][59][60] In September 2004, Justice Aharon Barak presiding over the Israeli Supreme Court, issued a demand that the IDF desist from the practice of using Palestinians as human shields, and in October outlawed the procedure.[61] The independent human rights NGOs B'tselem and Amnesty International have stated that ample evidence exists in conflicts after that date that Israel has employed Palestinians as human shields. According to B'tselem, the practice goes back to 1967.[55][61]

Finally, this article discusses the politics surrounding the idea of human shields

By these means, entire populations and vast cities are reduced to war space. Prevailing hierarchies of humanity ensure that some places and some people are far more likely to find themselves expendable through the twisted logics and framings of the human shield.

I hope this makes my point clear but basically: Israel is using proximity shielding (aka accusing Hamas of using civilians as human shields) to justify ethnic cleansing of Palestinians, and has itself had to outlaw the use of Palestinians as human shields because it was a normal part of Israeli military operations and totally allowed until all the human rights groups finally succeeded in outlawing it, and yet Israel still sometimes uses it.

And yet nobody has ever shown pictures or evidence that they do that. We hear about it constantly, but not one photo to back it up in a world of pocket cameras.

Hamas are a fucking blight, but I'm tired of the same god damned excuses for Israel's bad behavior. Fuck the IDF. Fuck Hamas. Fuck the whole lot assholes who put innocents in danger.

Civilians, Israeli or Palestinian, should not be pawns. The one immutable fact is, only one side here has any real power.

operating a military HQ bunker under a hospital is a warcrime in and of itself, it also makes it a legitimate war target.

Even if this were true, by International Humanitarian Law it does not make it a legitimate war target. One side committing war crimes is never carte blanche for the opposing side to also commit war crimes.

An example, just because Russian soldiers raped little kids in Bucha does not magically allow the Ukrainians to bomb hospital or to execute non-combatants. IHL intents explicitly to avoid tit for tat. Remember that the Russians also justify bombing hospitals and civilian residential buildings by accusing Ukrainians of using them as human shields.

Israeli bombing leveled entire villages in Gaza and the West Bank on the first night after the attack, over 300 children were killed in just that night. They've destroyed numerous apartment blocks, hospitals, schools with airstrikes. They struck a convoy of refugees on a road specifically designated as a safe route for evacuation, killing 70 people in one strike, mostly women and children.

It's funny how the IDF just classifies hospitals, apartments, UN camps, and schools as military targets and you don't ask any questions. Just how many HQs does Hamas have?

It certainly does more than Hama’s ever did.

Normally? Yeah I guess.

Now? No way. People have been bombed while evacuating to supposed safe locations or along safe routes. Like many times.

Its crazy to me the amount of support HAMAS is getting by random people on the internet.

Yes, Isreal has done terrible things, but you have to compare it to what their enemies are doing and would do in their place. HAMAS attacked civilians on purpose, executed babies and elderly. Kidnaped, tortured, and raped. Desicrated bodies, dragging them behind vehicles while cheering. Went door to door executing entire villages.

If roles were reversed, HAMAS would flatten the gaza strip. They wouldn't give two thoughts about civilians.

Go look at a map of the UN borders. Then look at a map of where Israeli troops are

Now come back here and say that again with a straight face.

Israel already controls every aspect of life in Gaza. They ration how much food and water they allow in, to keep them near starvation.

I think that is exactly what we want to bring up from the US. We fucked up our response to 9/11. We have some perspective on pushing for restraint for Israel reacting to their 9/11. Even if we avoid moralizing on civilian life, we are least can talk about the cost of perpetual war and occupation.

I was with them until that comment. Israeli people might want that, but the action of the Israeli government has been the opposite. Funny they say 'stop being so one-sided' and say Israel wants peaceful rulers, like Palestinians don't want that also.

You could have said the same thing 70 years ago about the leader if mandatory Palestine who was appointed by the British colonizers and collaborated with Nazis, and that a group like Irgun bravely fought against them. The same Irgun that carried out the Deir Yassin massacre.

What Israel's government is doing is wrong, and they should pay for it. And Israel should pay reparations. But the majority of Israeli's, Palestinians, and American Jews and Muslims just want peace man. This whole thing about who colonized who is silly.

Oh so because the other side is weak they're supposed to just sit idle when they murder pillage and rape? You're disregarding all the brutal fights Israel has fought against its neighbours as "they're strong so boo hoo". They also have thousands dead. They're also terrorized daily. Just because they're stronger doesn't make them less right. Again, they of course have a responsibility in this situation, but come on. Please tell me of any rocket launchers hidden inside a hospital Israel has. Blaming solely israel for the palestinian miserable lives is half the story. A big part of it is their terrorist leadership who take advantage of their poverty to promote a gruesome war they started (not talking about these days, talking about 48, where all the UN agreed on something and they chose to invade. Since then both sides are fully taking part in this war.).

Oh right, it's not like gaza had a democratic elections where Hamas won... (And then ran a coup murdering the opposition). Israel chose the (what seemed then) less of two greater evil. Clearly they were wrong, and they faced the consequences on saturday.

Clearly you don't understand what I mean, since you're not that knowledgeable in this conflict. Palestinians' leaders final goal is to get the 48 borders back. Nothing less and nothing more. And to that I said that it's been 70 years, and you'll need to grab it by conquest to get it, since the people lived there an entire life, and will never give it up. The leaders from both sides need to understand that any further border change between them will only make things worse, and the ones who started wanting to conquer was Palestinians. Now Israel is doing the same, but after many years, in which they got more right wing and more national, because of course they will when their busses are bombed by terrorists on the other side. I'm not saying Israel is clear of charge, I just say that they started better than Palestinians, then got more national as time went, because obviously - their enemies are murdering rapists. Palestinians are consistent with their desire to destroy Israel, Israelies have been building up to it (talking about each of their leaders, a.k.a the ones who matter).

An eye for an eye leaves Israel/Palestine a smoldering hole in the ground...

No, I think I got that wrong. How does it go?

Right now? Yeah, definitely they're violating human rights. But what are they supposed to do given their history? Every Palestinian leadership ever called out for civilians to be "jihad"s (terrorists) and kill as many as possible. I was simplistic because everyone here on lemmy also talks simplisticly. Talk of no nuance and no faults on both sides, mainly say "israel bad", "israel apartheid", "israel should stop existing" - all while forgetting this conflict has two sides. Yes, one side is poorer, but that doesn't make them more just. Both are wrong, but arguably palestinian leadership are the worst here. Being at a huge disadvantage and still choosing to fight a war they'll lose, while in the process keeping their citizens poor. At least Israel evacuated the cities near Gaza, while Hamas blocked people evacuating outside of a warzone.

I believe it's a reference to Nazi appeaser Nevil Chamberlain.

They do have "settlers" on the border of Gaza as an encroachment tactic. Technically illegal, but it's assumed they're sanctioned.

I'm glad to see that Bibi's not gonna get away with this

Isn’t it more of a “oh man, don’t do what we did. Oh boy, did that suck” kinda thing?

I don’t think Israel would benefit from occupying Gaza, mostly because they have already done that before and know it doesn’t work.