Danish law banning public burning of Quran sparks outcry
Hundreds of intellectuals and artists are concerned about its implications for freedom of expression, while police, lawyers, and prosecutors consider it too imprecise.
Burning a symbol to upset people is a shitty thing to do, but it should not be illegal.
Assaulting people, whether they burned a symbol you like or not, is a shitty thing to do that should remain illegal.
And yes, some people in my country have burned symbols that represent people like me recently. Nobody from my community assaulted the people who did it in response. Just the way it should be.
Why not? Why do people need to burn anything in public? Just behave like normal people already
The burning of qurans is clearly meant to incite hate and violence though, and frankly people shouldn't be burning anything in public anyways.
They're still perfectly free to invite anyone to their backyard book burnings, don't act like this is some authoritarian limit on freedom, this is an active intervention to PRESERVE freedom from the nazis who want to take it from us.
I do not approve of burning holy books, but I think it should be legal.
What people shouldn't do and what should be banned are different things. I don't want to live in a place where what is not mandatory is banned. There has to be some room for freedom of expression, even for people expressing ideas we dislike.
I think it should be allowed in any way anything else can be burned in public by an individual. If a group or organization is burning stuff I think its fine to put limits. That being said I don't think individuals should have a lot of rights to set things ablaze in public. If someone wants to sell a chimney sweep koran or toilet paper with suras it should be fine though but hey no reason it can't be bibles and verses or flags and pictures of politicians or whatever. Its crass and such but really the people being offended should just tit for tat it and make their own crass thing or whatever.
Yeah, no, sorry. The Arabic world with the monstrous societal issues they're suffering, has no right to dictate how our western world laws should look like. We have no obligation to bow to them, especially concidering there is nothing more anti Muslim than neighboring muslim countries. We had our borders open while the rich Arabic world shut theirs. This is just those rich countries grasping for more power. Fuck off or no more assistance programs, we'll spend our tax payers money on our own country instead of giving it to some ungrateful Arabic leaders new Ferrari.
In the interests of informed debate: Europe does not make no-strings welfare payments to Arab despots. What money they have they usually get from resource extraction, oil and so on. To the extent Europe pays anyone off, it is very much conditional - stopping migrants, for example.
While you're right in one way, it's not entirely correct and an oversimplification. Sweden, for instance, pays roughly 1 billion sek (100 million euro, or thereabouts) for assistance programs in Afghanistan, of this about 30 million euro is purely humanitarian aid. However, you can't deny knowing about the widespread corruption within the Arabic countries, where these funds and aids creates a space of available funds that's channeled into the pockets of the rulers. A famous example is Hamid Karzai and his brother Ahmed Wali Karzai. They sure LOVED the assistance from the western world.
To make things worse, the widespread corruption in certain areas puts the assistance programs in a position where they're forced to pay bribes to be given access to the people they're trying to help. This is very common according to transparency.org in their report "mapping the risks of corruption in humanitarian action."
To quote the report:
"The practice of paying bribes at roadblocks was seen by survey respondents as a high and unavoidable risk."
Aswell as:
"Anderson (1999) summarises the way in which aid can become caught up in conflict: Aid agencies, operating in areas controlled by factions, must often make ‘legitimate’ payments to those in power in the form of taxes and fees for services (import-export licenses, hired guards for protection, loaned use of vehicles and the like). They can use that income to finance the war or to enrich themselves"
But sure, yes, your comment is definitely for the informed debate.
I agree with your views on the Arab world but that's irrelevant to the discussion here?
Should it be illegal to burn religious books for the sole purpose of inciting hated freedom of speech? Probably not, but there needs to be some measure against people who are doing stuff like that purely for that reaction.
It turned the relatively peaceful streets of Finland into one with anger and violence, because one guy wanted to make a point. People were happy to let it happen until people from the opposite camp started burning Torahs. Suddenly it became an actionable issue.
Regardless of your views on the Arab world (of which I again, agree), a law that protects some and condemns others is the fastest path to instability and chaos and must be avoided at all costs. That's what's being discussed here.
I don't have an answer. I don't think it should be illegal, but I do think freedom of speech needs to have limits.
We should ban religion, it's for our freedom
I believe any form of burning books regardless of source should be legal. The ramifications of doing it is to get laughed at and have people shaking their heads; the same reaction that was given when bibles and swedish flags were burnt.
In fact, we even had a torah being burnt outside a synagogue here. The rabbi defended the action, calling the "right of free expression" a holy right within the borders.
The fact that this is even a debate is ridiculous, as it's clouded by disinformation and lies.
Fuck this. The right to free expression is at the very core of a free society. Religious assholes need to deal with it or get the fuck out. If they can’t live in the west without starting violent riots every time someone offends their beliefs then they have no place in a pluralist and democratic society.
The funny thing is proper way to get rid of Qur'an is burning it. So they are getting offended some non Muslim is burning the Qur'an.
What even is free expressing. There are already limits to free speech in Denmark. This is just another.
Obviously there isn’t completely free speech possible. I myself am german, we have several laws dealing with nazism in relation to the right to free expression.
That doesn’t mean I welcome additional restrictions to placate religious zealots who are implicitly threatening violence if they don’t get their way. Even if I agreed with their demand I would categorically reject it out of principle.
The ability to cope with ridicule and adverse opinion is the absolute base line for life and participation in a healthy society. If someone can’t, that’s an insufficiency on their part and not a cue for society to drop their values and principles to accommodate them.
There's limits to speech in every country on the planet. The only difference is where they draw the lines.
Blasphemy laws in 2023...
Don't you dare incite the religion of peace into violence!! We all know burning ink and paper are grounds for terror!! 🤡...
They shouldn't have put religion into this bill. In France, filming Quran burnings would be illegal in regards so the "incite hate law". I hope so at least! It's better to word it this way, so you can condemn provocation like holy book burnings, but keep caricature out of it.
Yes. Everyone told them to use the “disturbance of public peace” angle. They chose this idiocy. No f— clue why.
This Saturday is international blasphemy day (30 Sept):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blasphemy_Day
educates individuals and groups about blasphemy laws and defends freedom of expression, especially the open criticism of religion which is criminalized in many countries.
"We're not seeking to offend, but if in the course of dialogue and debate, people become offended, that's not an issue for us. There is no human right not to be offended."
If you came for the comments, turn back now 😂
Europeans believe in freedom, as in freedom from harassment and hate speech, for everyone, for the good of everyone
Americans believe they personally should have freedom to do or say anything, even if it's hateful and incites violence, as long as they personally are "free", even if it is bad for society as a whole
These are incompatible views and no good can come of this thread
This European belive in freedom from religion. Where children dont have their genitals mutilated just because their parents are in a cult.
Remember when extremists murdered someone in Denmark, during a peaceful political meeting?
On the recording, you can hear the very last thing the speaker said. She said:
"How come, when we talk about Islam, it's that we have freedom to criticize - but. Why is it that with Islam, there is a but?"
And then the shooting starts.
To me, this falls under the Paradox of Tolerance. Acts of hate should be strongly discouraged.
That doesn't work in this case since it applies to both sides. The rioting religious people and the Quran burners are both filled with hate.
both filled with hate.
That doesn't make them equal.
For example, if you look at two people, one that is a Nazi and one that hates Nazis, they are both hating. But it's quite clearly due to said paradox of tolerance. Only one of them is the asshole.
edit: apperently the analogy wasn't quite clear.
One is an ideological organisation which is has been causing oppression of minorities for a thousand years up to this day with countless atrocities commited in it's name, without going into details ... the other one is a person with a book, matches and a message.
This is a clear violation of peoples right to free expression. religious nutjobs have no place determining what we can and can't do in society
No it is not. Hate speech should not be mislabeled as free expression and many countries exempt hate speech from protected speec and criminalize it.
I don't give a fuck it it's a quran, bible, flag, or your underwear.
Stop burning shit in public.
Make a protest, write an article, say your piece, don't give a shit.
But there's no need to burn shit in public.
So you tell us that religious nutjobs do not have that very same right? and we are in place to determine what they can believe?
When someone's free expression starts inferring with national security, I'm not sure it should be free.
Let's say you had the passwords for Pentagons servers. Would it be free expression to give these to Putin? I doubt it.
The book burners know exactly what buttons they're pressing and they do it for that reason.
Religiius nutjobs and fascist nutjobs have no place determining what we can and can't do in society.
Lets take a comparable example.
Some armed people break into a bank and are robbing it. While they are busy carrying out their loot someone notices them but isn't noticed by them. That person can see that they are armed and will likely start shooting if he tells anyone. Should that person then be held responsible for the violence if they inform the police or even other members of the public about the bank robbery? Should they be legally obligated to not tell anyone because violence might happen if they do?
If I am not wrong Sweden tried something similarly stupid, luckily some court ruled against it in the end!
Why did they do this? A book only burns at fahrenheit 451 anyway
Bradbury pulled that number of of his ass, FYI
After he ate chilies then
As I think this is closely related, but no one mentions it, what do you think about those laws: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_desecration
When the intent is to cause violence, even if it's not you doing the violence, there is a legitimate societal interest in telling you to cut that shit out.
We're told to pretend the golden rule always applies... but I'm pretty okay with supremacist bigots being treated worse, no matter which side they're on. If someone's motivations amount to terrorism and genocide then the exact nature of their actions is kinda secondary.
Tricky subject with no easy answer. What I will say, is that I think the governments should not grant allowance to burn religious scripture, or destruction of important symbols outside of embassies. That I think is 100% taking it too far. You are now purposefully, intending to incite a group of people. And there is no doubt that, that is your intent.
Personally I've been back and forth on my stance as I've reflected on the proposal, various arguments for and against, and my thoughts. I'm leaning towards it shouldnt be banned in public in general. But it should not be allowed directly outside of embassies as the only intention to wanting to do that is to incite others.
Nope. Freedom is Freedom. Can't compromise with extremists. Burn any book whenever, wherever. If you're offended, tough cookies.
Not nope. You do not have the freedom to incite violence.
Come up with a better argument than "freedom is freedom" because that simply does not exist.
You also do not have the freedom to roam the streets nude.
We have freedom of speech and freedom of expression. That doesn't mean you can say anything you want. You can't express yourself in any way you want.
Hate speech is not protected speech here.
And it's not about giving in to extremeists. They may want the same thing. That doesn't mean it's the reason for it.
If you have an actual argument for your stance. Please share it.
You seem to think I'm offended by burning books. I'm not. Doesn't mean I can't understand the viewpoint that it can be seen as incitement.
No books should be burnt just because you don't like them or are "controversial".
Burning Mein Kampf because it's controversial, is the same as burning To Kill A Mockingbird.
There is a difference between collecting all copies of a book and burning them as a means of removing that book entirely and one person burning one copy of a book that they themselves own as form of protest.
I'm not sure which of the two you are referring to.
Sure, but the key word here is "should". Making it illegal to burn one specific book is immoral and wrong
Tbh, I kind of think it should be. Not de facto illegal, like if you accidentally burn it somehow, but if you intentionally do it to piss people off then that intention isn't exactly right itself. If you're putting on a public display purely to incite and antagonise people by destroying things they hold dear, then you're not merely exercising your freedoms but actively seeking to harm others.
It's all very grey area though, and any punishment should reflect that the harm is not physical and relatively low. This law almost definitely goes too far.
But then you could always pretend to be offended by something to get it banned. I understand that by your definition it would only include things done to spite other people but the line is thin. And it would create a dangerous precedent for the freedom of expression.
I might become offended by people wearing a tie. If it becomes well-known, should we ban ties?
I agree that in an ideal world, people shouldn't be assholes and burn Qur'ans just to antagonise people. But it should also be clear to the offended people, that this actually harms no one. It's like burning a dictionary. It's idiotic but harmless. If you expect to live in an open society, you have to realise that the book of your religion is just an object.
What I'm getting at is not the victim's view of it, but the perpetrator's intent. If you can prove that harmful intent, then there would be a crime. Granted, that would be incredibly easy to subvert and get around, and kind of rightly so - it can only be a relatively low level of non-physical harm.
But it is still harm, in the form of causing emotional distress. People aren't burning Qurans because they feel oppressed by Qurans or what they represent, they're not disposing of possessions they no longer want, they're doing it to upset Muslims. Burning a dictionary isn't the same, a better example would be throwing food down a disposal in front of a starving child.
If i went into the street and condemned people for whatever choices they make, without harassing them, that would be legal. You're not harming anyone by burning a book and you wouldn't hurt anyone either by just pissing them off. The problem is a very vocal part of the world have been brainwashed to incite violence when this specific area of their feelings get hurt.
It's only made a gray area because you can't tell them that they can in fact just learn to ignore it and practice their religion in peace and expect it to work. Their beliefs are not built upon letting others express their views freely if they react with violence when someone burns their printed holy word. Their actions would be justified if there was only one copy or a building was burnt down, but it's a worthless material thing, and the disrespect it signifies will not go away just because you disallow people to express it.
Sorry, long rant to say I actually agree that this law goes too far.
If you went to the streets with posters or speeches that talk about how you believe the teachings or religious organizations to be wrong that is perfectly legal.
If you cannot think of civilized ways to express critique and opposition, than it is your problem and not that of the people that rightfully fear the burning of symbols to escalate into violanece against the people, like it did many times in history.
If you think burning religious books in public should be legal you also think that burning a Torah in a former concentration camp, or in front of a synagouge should be legal. If these ideas make you uncomfy, then you should ask yourself, why you want muslims to be treated differently from other religions.
I agree that their response - which itself is far more wrong than anything else here - doesn't justify the law, but that's not the argument I'm making. What I'm saying is that the burning of the Quran is done with harmful intent (to piss off Mulsims), rather than as a traditional protest against some oppressor. It makes sense for the law to recognise that harmful intent as something that is wrong - not because they're desecrating a religious symbol, but because they're doing it with malicious intent. However, the punishment should fit the crime, and there is no physical or direct harm. It really shouldn't be much more than a court-mandated inclusivity course or something.
If you're putting on a public display purely to incite and antagonise people by destroying things they hold dear, then you're not merely exercising your freedoms but actively seeking to harm others.
If I put on a public display to antagonise religious people, and they, based on their religion find harmfulx shoud that be banned?
The display itself wouldn't be banned, nor the act, but the intent to cause harm or distress to others. Proving that intent might not be easy in a lot of cases, but it would be hard to argue that a public book burning wasn't done to piss off religious people. A private book burning would be ok though.
In any case, burning books isn't exactly a good thing. At least, burning them because of what is written inside, feeding a book to fuel a fire is a different matter.
This is in defence of Article 9 of the European Convention of Human Rights. Do not forget: this includes EVERYONE.
Good.
I beg to differ, and I certainly don't want any blasphemy laws in Sweden!