Growing a personality

I mean, that's a really low bar. I like Pete, and I would certainly vote for him instead of just about anyone in any position of government. But I do think our standards have been lowered to the point where "not a nazi shitbag" is going to put him in the upper echelon.

But I do think our standards have been lowered to the point where “not a nazi shitbag” is going to put him in the upper echelon.
I agree, but in many places lesser evil is the best we can do. I think if one lives in a red state then we need to vote as much as we can to minimize harm. If we live in a blue state we need to vote for the most progressive dem in primaries to start the shift away from corporate dems. In pretty much every election from the last 30 years non voting has been the biggest voter block.
Protesting is important too, but we need to follow up the energy and vote as well. Otherwise we are saying that we care a lot about something, but not enough to go all the way with our complaint.
- I'm with you completely, I'm just feeling grumpy today.
  
  Fair enough
Pete isnt a low standard. Hes would be a good candidate in pretty much any country.
- So was Obama, who led us directly to Trump. At some point, Democrats have to actually stand for something more than mere competence and being the lesser evil.
  
  Lolwut. You're blaming Obama for what, being a black guy that made fun of Trump at a dinner? Feel free to blame the DNC or Biden for dropping out too late, or whatever. But Obama?
  
  I don't give a shit about Obama being black. We elected a black president so apparently we were ready for it, and that's great. I blame Obama for selling us out to Wall Street on multiple occasions. I blame him for perfecting Clinton's triangulation politics that replaces substance with flowery rhetoric. I blame Obama for redirecting funds traditionally used for congressional races to his own campaign chests, then blaming the Republican Congress when he couldn't get anything done. Should I go on?
  
  What's this have to do with Trump
  
  Really nothing. It has to do with fascism. Neoliberalism is losing to it all around the globe. Only Brazil and Mexico are bucking the trend, and they elected leftists.
  
  I might be reaching, but I don't think that was the point of their comment. A problem with the democratic party is that they're such a big tent party that it's hard to say what their platform and what their strategy is. They seem to only be successful when they have someone like a Bill Clinton or a Barack Obama. Someone that oozes charisma and can present a unified vision. The problem is, that never becomes the party's vision.
  
  You act like biden had no policy but stood on many issues. Even if we just look at the policy he passed he stood for a lot. If we expand to the policy he tried to pass he stood for even more.
  He had real solutions to the problems, they were boring and bureaucratic but thats whats required. Putting a freeze on rent isnt going to fix house prices or cost of living. Only investment will fix that.
  
  Americans have had 50 years of "progress" where all the great things Democrats say they do don't seem to help. Technocratic improvements and even material improvements don't even register with people anymore. Voters (regardless of what they might say) want transformative change. Forgiving some student loans is good, but free college is transformative.
  Republicans offer transformative change. In the absence of anything on offer from the Democrats, the culture moves right. 50 years later and here we are.
  
  Seriously, you think there has been no progress over the past 50 years? Theres a million things i could point to that suggest otherwise.
  
  Really? I think you might be the only one that doesn't see the decline. I've been making these points for years, and I've never had to defend the notion that things have gotten worse for workers. Sure, there are specific things tht have improved, but not the whole. Even a lot of the big improvements like the ACA have made the economic picture worse overall.
  Union membership in 1975 was around 25% compared to 10% today. Wealth inequality has absolutely exploded, as has the percentage of Americans living paycheck to paycheck. Personal debt has also exploded. People used to borrow to buy a house. Then they started borrowing to buy a car. Then they started paying for college with debt. Now people are financing their groceries.
  By every relevant measure, economic outlooks for everyone but the wealthy have crashed in the past 50 years, and Democratic solutions have done dick to stop it. In many cases it was even Democrats making things worse.
  
  Even if there were a magic politician who did everything right, people would still saying "oh things feels worse because x y and z stats have declined". Things can decline and progress at the same time. The average american has access to far more luxury than ever before. Some things have gotten worse, of course no one would deny that but I think on average things have improved and if we were talking about this pre covid i'd probably be extremely optimistic.
  
  Even if there were a magic politician who did everything right...
  And even an apologist for Adolf Hitler might fall back to this vibe based argument.
  Things can decline and progress at the same time.
  Which is explicitly in my comment that you replied to.
  The average american has access to far more luxury than ever before.
  TVs are thinner (and cheaper), computers are faster and fit in your pocket. Technology moved forward, and you could even try to wrangle that into an argument for capitalism. (Which I would reject, but the bones of the argument are at least there). How you tie that to anything Democrats have done, I have no idea.
  but I think on average things have improved
  And you are delusional. Many things have gone well for some people, and some things have even gone well for almost everyone. That doesn't change the fact that the vast majority of working Americans are in way worse shape than they were 50 years ago.
  You haven't wrestled with any of the facts above, but here are some more. The average personal savings rate in 1975 was over 12% and today it's below 6%. Nearly half of American households today have no retirement savings at all. Appliances now last less than half as long as they did in 1975. Jobs are far less secure than in 1975. Educational requirements are far higher than in 1975. College costs are way higher, as are medical costs - even for those with insurance. Even streaming media has been enshitified to where cable TV was cheaper and more convenient.
  These are the kind of conditions that reliably turn neoliberalism into fascism.
  
  Oh he definitely stood for things: austerity, cracking down on immigrants, and genocide
  
  If this is all you took from Biden's legislatively successful presidency, you're part of the problem in America. The guy was progressive as fuck compared to most presidents.
  
  "Hitler made the trains run on time! He was actually very progressive!"
  
  If all you have left are personal attacks, at least try for some good ones
  
  So was Obama, who led us directly to Trump.
  You should just throw a Blame Obama party. You'll meet a lot of other annoying people like yourself and make new friends.
  
  Let's just put our heads in the sand and pretend that Democrats didn't lose the entire fucking country. They did everything right, it's just dumb luck.
  It's not even just the federal government. Not only did Obama lose the House and the Senate, he also lost the Democrats over a thousand statewide seats. At some point there has to be a come to Jesus moment. If things haven't gotten bad enough now, what will it take?
All of politics is a compromise. You can't actually accomplish anything if you have a dogmatic approach to it. That's why Sanders, who I very nearly wholeheartedly support, is so rarely able to actually get anything done. And bless him for it!, he's the moral compass we need! But to get things done, politicians need to make deals, sometimes with shitty people.
I don't like everything that Buttigieg represents. But I like him a lot more than Newsom, who throws trans people under the buss without provocation. I certainly like him more than Joe Walsh, the 'former' (?) Tea Party conservative that now claims to be a Democrat.
- There's a difference between reasonable compromise and compromising with fascists who want to kill people. You cant deal with or compromise with them, especially since they will never work to compromise with you when they're in power. And atleast so far it feels like the current democratic party tried to move right during the election to compromise with these people rather then standing firm on certain principles like protecting migrants. People like Bernie dont win because the corporate interests and the establishment of the party will throw everything against them to stop them from winning. There's a reason one of the most popular things in America is a progressive ballot measures, even in red states.
  
  You cant deal with or compromise with them
  You kind of have to, since government relies on the consent of the governed. When enough of them will no longer consent to being governed, your government will fail. But if you really want to address that problem, you look at the reasons why people turn to fascism; it's not something that happens in a vacuum.
  In this case, the dems are handling it badly; they're trying to move to the right in order to give the fascists the things that they say they want. But what they say they want isn't really the root issue, which means that dems can never go far enough right to win their vote.
  
  Yeah I generally agree with you, Dems aren't doing good at providing an alternative and are actively fighting against voices in the party who are offering an alternative. But at the same time you can't let the fascists accomplish their agenda, you have to use the same tactics they use against the Dems when they're in power. No compromising and obstructing on every thing you can to stop them from being able to implement what they want. Doing that while offering a progressive populist vision would be the only way to recover and pull people back from people like Trump.
- How exactly are Republicans compromising with the American left right now?
- Bullshit. Governing is compromise, but politics is bullshit. I mean that in the literal sense. To get what you want politically, you have to push the overton window so that you can govern towards the middle. But the middle between reasonable and fascism is not a great place for governing anyone.

This motherfucker can fuck off. He helped the DNC crush Bernie Sanders run in 2020. Also he is a fucking neoliberal who steals titles now.

Add that he enabled the Biden disaster to the list. He was supposedly his mock debate partner and didn't raise any red flags about Biden's mental health. Seriously, fuck that guy.
- Bidens mental health was never the issue. Its why right wingers switched to a new attack as soon as Harris was put in and havent mentioned a single thing about trumps mental health which is arguable worse than biden ever was.
  
  harris was a curveball and they couldnt compensate quickly enough, but harris misstep was tamping down her rhetoric, and now trying elicit hispanic and aa voters.
  
  Also, her interview answer about not doing anything different from the Biden administration was political malpractice of the first order.
  
  The fact that she seemed completely caught off guard for what was possibly the most obvious question definitely didn't help. Of all questions to not prepare for...
  
  Sure, if you want to rewrite history that could be true. Everyone was fearful of Biden's mental health because they kept him out of the public. Then, when he did the debate, he confirmed everyone's fears. It wasn't that long ago, how have you already forgotten?
  
  and when they brought out a candiate without that concern it changed nothing for all the right wingers who were saying I cant vote for biden because mental health. Now bring up trumps mental health to them and they are oblivious. So I dont know how anyone can argue it was ever a valid concern to voters who choose not to vote dems.
  
  That wasn't Kamala's problem. You really do have a short memory. She lost because she also wasn't a good candidate. You can't invalidate Biden's issues because Kamala lost. They both had their own issues. Biden polled the worst against Trump. Kamala polled the second worst against Trump.
  
  She lost because she had the same garbage policies of Biden. Having a border cop at the DNC tell us that Harris would be stronger at the border, The Most Lethal Military, while no Palestinian spoke, promises for policies that were so complicated and means-tested nobody expected they would benefit told the voters they'd get more of the same from.
  
  She lost because more people wanted Trump and it was never about age or policy or leadership. Mindless people got swept up in the right wing hype because every single right winger was shouting from the roof tops about how great Trump was while lefties were attacking their candiates.
  
  Leftists were telling their candidate what they needed to do to win. Instead of promising immediate improvements in peoples material conditions, they gave us genocide and Trump's 2020 platform.
  
  Was the leftist vote what lost the election? I dont think it was. So I dont think it matters what lefitst wanted or thought, they had no choice but to vote "the lesser of two evils" or shoot themself in the foot. Idc what option they choose, the vote was decided by middle ground voters who were influenced by online discourse.
  
  it was never about age or policy or leadership.
  You're projecting. Just because you think of elections as a team sport with no connection to policy, doesn't mean everyone else does.
  
  If you think Harris did as badly as Biden would have if he'd stayed till election, you're only fooling yourself. It would have been the biggest Republican sweep since Reagan.
  
  Trumps mental health is far better than Biden. Biden was a zombie. His mental health was so bad that the DNC dropped him after he zombied out during the debate with Trump.
  Biden has late stage cancer which most definitely was present when he decided to run again.
  Why are Democrats still simping for the guy who lost them the election?
  
  If you watched the Trump v Biden debate and came away thinking Trump was more intelligent in any way you're beyond help. I'm sorry but the competency isnt even close.
  
  Trump did answer worse-- he's never going to be more intelligent-- but Biden looked like a reanimated corpse ngl and he would have lost the vote hard
  
  yeah you're right he would have, but thats a reflection on the voting population of america. When I watched those two Biden was clearly more intelligent, thoughtful an well spoken which is what I look for in a leader. But I guess other people just pick whoever acts more confident. As apparent by all the people judging the debate off a single out of context soundbite.
  
  Clearly more intelligent? He was struggling to form coherent sentences. Trump spewed lie after lie, but could at least form complete thoughts.
  
  I've had this argument so many times so I wont be the one to bring examples. But if you truly believe what you said then you should be able to point to a single instance in the entire debate where trump answered a question better than biden. Please pick one and we can argue about it. I'm of the opinion that every single question biden answered was more coherent than any question trump answered. The only reason you would think otherwise is if you completely lose all logic and reasoning after hearing someone stutter or not speak loudly.
  Biden would acknowledge the issue, cite policy he has already passed which addressed the issue and then speak about policy which he was working on to further address the issue. He did this for every single question.
  But I guess he losses because trump makes a funny face and joke? Have some respect for yourself because i'd never be caught dead saying thats all it took to convince me.
  
  He beat Medicare... My grandmother passed away of a brain tumor. As her symptoms progressed she struggled to form sentences and find the words she wanted to use. You could tell she knew what she wanted to say, but couldn't get it out. That's exactly what Biden looked like on that stage. You are delusional if you saw that performance and thought he was the correct candidate for the democratic party. Hell, even Biden saw that performance and decided he wasn't the correct candidate. I'm not sure where you're getting your narrative from, but you're so far from the reality that everyone saw.
  Trump's performance was abysmal, as normal for Trump. Biden crashed so hard and set the bar so low that Trump was able to clear it. Someone with full faculties was able to easily dismantle Trump, as demonstrated by Kamala. Biden kept bringing the debate back to the issue of immigration. That was Trump's largest strength in polling. That's an awful debate tactic that a younger Biden wouldn't have done. Hopefully there aren't enough people like you in the DNC. I'm not looking forward to another loss in 2028 because you refuse to accept reality.
  
  Trump's mental state was blatantly superior to Biden that debate.
  
  Is there a condition of sign up on .world that you have to point out .ml users at every interaction? Seems like this overwhelming compulsion you all have.
  
  Being in denial about Bidens mental capabilities in current time requires unfathomable levels of cope. Don't worry it's .ml who did it.
  
  Did you watch the Biden vs Trump debate which caused Biden to drop out?
  
  Yes, I did. In real time too!
  Biden wiped the floor with that fucking orange buffoon! Just like he did in the 2020 debate. All I saw from the orange fuckwad was talking over when it wasn't its turn to talk (no surprise the toilet can't keep all that bullshit in the plumbing), and generally saying, as always, the dumbest fucking shit you've ever heard come from someone's mouth on live television. Let's not even mention that most of the sentences the orange shit stain let fall out of its mouth was literally incoherent in reality. Here, let me provide you with some of the "totally mentally okay, trust me bro" you are trying to argue with:
  “He’s become like a Palestinian but they don’t like him because he’s a very bad Palestinian” (2024)
  “On January 6th, we were respected all over the world. All over the world, we were respected” (2024)
  “I gave Biden a country with no, essentially no inflation. It was perfect. It was so good” (2024)
  Or are you thinking of something else?
  
  Can you remind me who beat medicare?
I see you're part of the crowd that doesn't understand that not enough Americans wanted Bernie to make Bernie happen.
I like Bernie. I'm also aware enough to understand liking someone doesn't mean everyone else does.
Oh nooooo, he's not perfect! Let's elect trump again.
- We can't criticize the Democrats now?
  
  Up to you. Do you think it'll help us win?
  See, I write to them. I call them. I influence them. You, you're influencing voters. Is that a winning strategy?
  
  Voters vote in primaries too you know. Biden beat Bernie almost entirely on a myth that he was the most electable. That shit has to go, and Rachel Maddow and Chris Cuomo aren't going to do that for us.
  
  Who's "us"? We're against the uniparty. Not in favor of it.
  
  Good thing the idea of a "uniparty" is fucking idiotic and not even remotely close to correct and is just a pathetic excuse for Republicans who don't want to admit that they're in favor of everything going on.
  
  Until we have ranked choice, "us" is the anti Republican contingent.
  You never vote FOR a candidate in a first past the post election. You vote AGAINST who you hate most. And not voting counts as a vote for who you hate most because it lowers their bar to win. It's unfortunately how the math works out.
  
  I hate Democrats most because they block any meaningful progress to an alternative. What does that mean?
  
  It means you're bad at strategy and privileged enough to not be too harmed by Republican policies.
  
  Nobody is going to take strategy advice from ride or die Democrats, mate, you are the world champions of losing elections
  
  I haven't been s Democrat in decades. I also understand how first past the post works.
  The current situation sucks, but we're stuck in it. Provide an alternative strategy that doesn't rely on hopes and dreams, and I'm in.
  
  The democrats failing to block Republicans and running on dogshit policy that helps nobody got us here. You have to be pretty fucking awful to lose to Donald fucking trump twice.
  
  Yep! It's their fault. They failed to vote.
  Also, they were dressed to sexily, so of course this happened.
  
  I influence them.
  Lol. Someone has a self inflated sense of themselves
  
  No raindrop thinks itself responsible for the flood.
  
  Lol, nice. Which anime did you get that line from?
  
  Dunno. Life somewhere :-)
  But it's true. We're hyper-individualized and have forgotten what it's like to move together. We press a button, and nothing happens, so we assume it's useless. We have stopped thinking about acting together as a community, and all pressing the button together to have an effect.
  And we've also forgotten that, in order to be a community and wield that power, you have to accept that some people disagree with you on some topics. It's how the right keeps winning.
  But one thing we can't disagree on, is how first past the post works. You never vote FOR a candidate you like. You're always voting AGAINST the worst candidate.

like all neoliberals in the Dem establishment, Butti will always do what the corporations tell him. don’t fall for it, we need to demand better.

And a politician he is, willing to be bought in exchange for political capital.

Stealing from my comment in a different thread:

I’m still upset with Buttigieg for his pre-Super-Tuesday drop out. He joined the establishment to rally against Sanders. In doing so, he became part of what’s wrong with the party.

While I don’t think poorly of him as a person per se, he is also just another politician.

In contrast, I see folks like Sanders and AOC as real agents of change.

If Sanders and AOC aren't the future of the Democratic Party, then the Republicans are just going to keep winning. Neolibs simply aren't popular. They aren't far enough to the left for the leftists, and they aren't far enough to the right for the conservatives.
In contrast, I see folks like Sanders and AOC as real agents of change.
Are you aware that an entire nation of people other than you exist and that many of them are not down with candidates as progressive as Sanders and AOC?
Are you going to live the rest of your life crying about Sanders being cheated, or are you going to accept that there simply weren't enough Americans out there comfortable with his kind of progressive stances to make him president?
- Chill out. Going into attack mode doesn’t make your assertion carry more weight.
bought in exchange for political capital
That's a very uncharitable assumption of his motivations.
Dropping out of an (FPTP) primary is like awkward manual runoff voting. Once you clearly aren't winning, you drop out so those votes can flow to the next preferred candidate.
People voting for Buttigieg switched to Biden because he was the most similar candidate. Of course Buttigieg would support the candidate that best matches his policy preferences -- and the preferences of voters.
- You're stating he believes his policies were closer to Bidens than Bernie's. That alone should show why people don't like him and believe he's a centrist. I don't really care or think about the dropping out thing. What hurt Bernie is everything and I'm not going to point fingers at him personally, but his "Medicare for all who want it" is exactly the kind of garbage middling take that makes everyone feel as though he stands for nothing and has no actual morals. Leftists are being forced to vote for these people, but he does not represent me or my values and I don't believe he represents himself. Just whatever he thinks is going to get the backing of the party. Wish people would stop pushing this nonsense online acting like he actually cares about the people and will do anything beyond the bare minimum. He's certainly not aligned with any leftist agenda.
  
  That alone should show why people don’t like him and believe he’s a centrist.
  Lol. We just went with a far right felon rapist traitor with a notably low IQ instead of centrist Joe Biden or Kamala Harris. What makes you think anyone further to the left stands a chance in America?
  You want to go hard left? You're going to lose. Welcome to America in 2025.
  
  Populism from the left gets just as much traction from the working class as populism from the right. Centrists doing poorly has nothing to do with leftists. People liked that Trump was extreme and anti establishment and were very clear about that. He beat a Bush in the primaries. It was Jeb, but still. People liked that he was "telling it like it is", which a centrist never will. Additionally, leftists politicians consistently come across as more genuine, even to republicans, which goes a long way. When Harris says she cares, I have no doubt that what she cares about is her career because it's so transparent. Leftists stand for something and that encourages trust and interest and support. If they had centrist dem backing the way magats had centrist republican backing, this country would have gay space communism already.
- You're trying to make sense to people who want their preferred candidate to win and if they don't they throw a fit and won't accept anyone else.
  Hence all the people in these comments STILL crying about Bernie.
  I voted for Buttigieg. When it was clear he wasn't going to get it, he dropped to let his votes go to someone else, like he should have. Then I went with Biden. The next most realistic, progressive option.
  A lot of people in these comments do not grasp how American politics function.

If "best" means technically proficient, then sure. He does the politician thing better than any other establishment Democrats I can think of. If "best" means good for the country, then I have some notes. Obama was the same kind of character, and Trump was the result. I'm not sure I want to go down the highly charismatic Wall Street removed route again.

Obama was the same kind of character, and Trump was the result.
Lol. Ok.
Let's blame Obama for Trump. We already blame him for everything else.
- Not just Obama, but he is a perfect example of the kinds of Democrats that made fascism inevitable.

I thought that in the beginning, but he sold out to the insurance companies pretty quickly. I was pretty bummed about it. Notice he took the transportation gig when he was working for Biden.

And he's still a saint compared to 99% of our politicians.
Know why liberals are losing? Because we like to find 1 thing we don't like about a candidate and blow it the fuck up and make them unelectable. Then the fascist far right candidate waltzes into the White House.
- I'm not usually that uptight about purity tests, but it took him like 3 days to do this. At least wait until people can get to know you. It's like finding out your favorite teacher was hitting on your classmates. It's disappointing.

It's sad when a McKinsey ghoul is one of our best choices right now.

One of the best? He didn't even support Medicare for all. He's just another pathetic neolib.

You’re both correct and that’s what really sucks
That's not true! He supported Medicare for all!*
^*who ^want ^it.
He probably understands what you don't. That going hard left in America right now is how you lose.
We went with a hard right felon rapist traitor instead of centrists Biden or Harris. What makes you think anyone further to the left stands a chance in America?
Try existing in reality. The reality is hard left is not what most Americans are comfortable with. We have to make our way there. Not magically teleport there.
- Remind me, what happened to Kamala's poll numbers as she shifted to the center?

Buttigieg is one of the best politicians America has right now.

Well that might be the single grimmest condemnation of the state of American politics I've seen

Care to explain or are you just a bridge troll?
Guy is incredibly intelligent. Calm. Collected. Fair. He easily handles Fox News pundits while trying to explain things in a way even Fox viewers can understand. Served in the military. Became a mayor before getting into national politics. Got pretty far into the primary process.
I'll wait for your response.
- Many horrific politicians are intelligent, calm, collected, and perform well in interviews. You're basically describing Dick Chaney.
  Serving the military is not a good thing.

We can't be friends with a take like that. I'll never forgive how he treated Bernie.

He didn't say it was a hard bar to clear
You gonna cry about Bernie all your life or move on and do something productive?
- Nice downvote farm. Ironically, maybe you should be the one to find something more productive?

Well that's upsetting.

Buttigieg is one of the best politicians America has right now

At failing upwards.

He's just your typical charismatic Centrist who can deliver some catchy sound bites for the billionaire-owned media to obsess about, but has no legislative experience beyond being the mayor of a small town in Indiana, which he apparently wasn't even that good at.

When it comes to authenticity, he's almost exactly on par with Ted "100% Human Candidate" Cruz

or the likes of shapiro growing one. ted cruz sheds his skin in cancun and greece.

Pete is a CIA asset.

Dumb comment alert!!!!
- Heartbreaking

People don't want another politician.

Yeah, we should elect reality TV personalities instead. That works out well.
- Because thats the only other choice. Right. 🙄