Windows 11 has made the “clean Windows install” an oxymoron
Op-ed: PC makers used to need to bring their own add-on bloatware—no longer.
Just bought a new Windows laptop and it was LOADED with bloatware. Some apps could be deleted simply, some however are baked in. Discovered BloatyNosyApp and the partner app Junk Ctrl for W11 on GitHub https://github.com/builtbybel/BloatyNosy
This seems to have done the trick quickly and surprisingly easily compared to DIY powershell activity.
All PCs bought in retail should be wiped and reimaged with a fresh install. At the very best, you install the firmware updates manually or via the manufacturer app but even then I will take a second look before approving.
That was the point of the article, it doesn't do the trick anymore, bloatware is now part of the default install.
It has been like that for a long time
Yes, let's fucking download software from a GitHub repo!
And then removed how Linux isn't user friendly, because you... might have to download software from a GitHub repo?
The MBA dickheads took Microsoft over years ago. Engineers used to have some input on features and design, but those days are long gone. I know the term enshittification has been overused, but it applies double to Microsoft.
Tools like ShutUp10 (which works on Windows 11) are the only reason I can bear to use their bloated horrible OS for my job.
Office 365 pissed me off so much I only use LibreOffice now (and it's excellent).
We should all be using Linux, but some folks (like me) are trapped for now.
if I didn't work in IT and I didn't play certain video games and I didn't need certain recording software I would be 100% Linux it kind of pisses me off that I can't be 100%.
Fuck Libre Office and Open Office.
I really hate the, "we should all use Linux" mentality and I see it on here a lot. Let me tell someone who barely knows how to send a fucking file over the internet how to fix their broken repository that decided to randomly break during an Linux upgrade.
Linux and Windows do different things in different ways that make sense in both ways for different reasons. Not everyone should hate Windows or vice versa, Linux, because this entire Lemmy community thinks it is superior in every way.
I get pissed off by office as well but you know what it has some pretty damn good features. It works in the cloud it's easy to sync across my decides.
Windows updates break things but at least MS and Windows has a massive catalogue of fixes and ways to go back.
I love Linux but holy mother of fucking God it is an absolute pain in the ass to fix when it breaks and you expect me to tell my Mom to understand that.
No, we should not all be using Linux because Linux does not work for all models needing to be met. I hate to be that aggressive asshole but Jesus Christ I keep seeing this on Lemmy and it's just a god damn stupid fucking statement. Oh and for fucks sake. If I see, "what kind of Linux system are you using that breaks." Dammit, I have literally seen Linux break in the middle of a college classroom demonstration of just installing it and wouldn't you know it just like Windows it isn't perfect. Get off your high horse people. You don't know something more than the average person because you use Linux or Windows or hell even Unix.
I’m not gonna comment on the Linux portion because you seem quite passionate, but both Libre Office and Open Office are cross platform apps. So they’ll work just fine with your OneDrive / Dropbox / Backblaze / whatever to give you the wonderful fully cloud synced experience on either Windows or Linux.
Linux is just the kernel and infinitely superior to anything Microsoft has ever produced by itself. Stability and usability issues arise from the distribution that is being used, there are many that are tailored for the average consumer and that are just as simple to use as Windows. People like to forget it, but Android also uses the Linux kernel and is the most successful operating system in the world, with the amount of installed instances dwarfing the amount of Microsoft Windows installations.
Your mom would do just fine on Mint, and you know it.
Yeah ... No. Ubuntu is way more stable for me than win10. And much lazier to use. This argument was true ten years ago but Ubuntu and friends are really just install and click browser just like most people use Chromebooks
I mean....if you're installing Linux and having a "normie" use it, if they're just using the GNOME Software Center or the dkstro's equivalent.....they'll literally never have an issue.
Yep... Moving to Lemmy it's quite surprising how much of an echo chamber the Linux group has on here.
It's a good OS, but being honest Windows is likely better for almost everyone as it's a lot simpler to understand with good support. Don't have to worry about comparability as much or other things either.
What broken repository yiu talking about? My mum used Linux for over 10 years and she never saw Windows in her life. Email, YouTube, eBay... Never a problem. I can't even imagine leaving her with Windows.
Open office and libre office are bad because you don't like linux?
Who hurt you, Arch Linux?
ShutUp10 and WinAeroTweaker are the GOATS.
winaero was a game changer, what is ShutUp10?
I just recently updated shutup10 because of another annoyance of windows and was surprised that it didn't solve my problem right away. Even with shutup10 it's barely bearable.
ITT: folks who think Linux is too complicated or whatever, but are perfectly willing to jump through endless hoops to work around some of Windows' deliberate hostility.
The Stockholm syndrome is real.
folks who think Linux is too complicated or whatever
At one point this was true, but that was many years ago.
Unfortunately, that reputation has kind of stuck.
The barriers are still too steep. My Ubuntu machine updated it's kernel and then refused to boot after that. I had to look up how to manually lock the old working kernel.
Windows has never completely broken itself on an update for me.
If that happened to my parents they'd be angrily driving to the shop to get another cheap windows laptop.
Microsoft only hurts me when I'm being a removed. Its my fault. He's normally really nice.
: folks who think Linux is too complicated or whatever, but are perfectly willing to jump through endless hoops to work around some of Windows’ deliberate hostility.
Man I realised this when I found myself running a third party program just to get my audio to simultaneously play out of multiple outputs on windows. I had regular issues with games and my killer ethernet adapter (they're notoriously bad, but after switching to linux didn't have any issues). Reformatting for home was getting longer and longer. Start menu search started to become slow and bogged down. Windows store was a nightmare. It was a constant battle to remove all the advertising and tracking "features". I game, but mostly a PC for me is a tool. When a tool stops doing its job, it gets replaced.
Funnily, when I play games with my friends, I rarely have issues... but as soon as I do, they they're pretty quick to jump down my throat about my OS of choice.
EDIT: WSL is pretty nice though, I use it on my work box.
I think Windows makes multiple audio input/output hard as a piracy measure and it drives me crazy as well. Perfectly good audio ruined the moment I plug my mic in. Makes it harder to game without a headset.
I feel like I get closer and closer every day, but video games still keep me anchored down
Have you heard of our Lord and Savior, Proton?
I use Linux full time since 2020, and have known it since 2013~, but I don't ever recommend it to anyone. It's full of papercuts.
I actually like to be able to play games on my gaming PC so no thanks, I will stay with windows
That's wholly your prerogative, but I just wanted to chime in and say - I was firmly in this camp too, but I've been restricted to a shitty second PC as I don't have access to my usual rig at the moment. Decided it was the time to give Linux a shot after 4-5 years since last time. Every game I've tried has worked with 0 mucking around, outside of games I'm obtaining through uh, less ethical means, which don't just install straight through Steam.
I know it's only anecdotal and I'm not saying you have to change if you've got no reason to, but gaming isn't really the reason it used to be for not using Linux. Unless you only play competitive shooters with Anti-Cheat that doesn't work on Linux.
Downgraded my new desktop computer from Win11 to Win10 this weekend. Still considering if I shouldn't just go back to Linux now that Valve has made gaming on Linux viable...
Have you checked if your games are supported on ProtonDB?
I'm holding out as long as I can on Win10 for gaming. It's my hope that Linux gaming will be compatible with most of my games by the time I have to choose between Win11 and Linux. Last time I checked there were a few games I was interested in that weren't completely compatible with SteamOS.
I want to switch to gaming on linux so bad. Just a few weeks ago I ran into a sudden issue where any source game I launched in windows would crash my graphics driver, totally unrecoverable without restarting the PC (even shift+ctrl+win+b did nothing) and on some restarts I found myself being forced to boot on integrated graphics and fully reinstall drivers. Total shitshow, started while I was midgame and came out of nowhere, couldn't figure anything out.
I finally gave up and installed mint, got steam set up and downloading, started moving over some my backed up files... only to find out that a thing I'd ordered to make my VR headset wireless wasn't going to have Linux drivers. I was gonna have to dual boot windows at the very least. And I've had other experiences where Windows updates have broken Grub and forced me to do reinstalls as well, so...
The day can't come fast enough where companies just build stuff for Linux. The Windows UI gets worse with every release, and it's really not as bug-free as people seem to think, it just has market share and companies tend to build for it by default. Completely self-fulfilling prophecy.
I was gonna have to dual boot windows at the very least. And I’ve had other experiences where Windows updates have broken Grub and forced me to do reinstalls as well, so…
You didn't have to reinstall. You just have to boot from a live USB and then run like three commands to fix it. But yes, that is indeed unironically more work to figure out and safely do.
When choosing the region/language, choose "English (World)". Boom, bloatware be gone.
You can safely change it to your correct region once you've logged in (Note: the Windows Store won't work until you do).
Are there laws in England that prevent bloatware?? That sounds like an EU thing, not an English thing. I would think the England install might be even more bloated than the US one.
We have English (United Kingdom) as a localised install.
Not any more bloated then English (US) but if this English (World) install is even cleaner as Andi says, I’ll start using that instead for fresh installs.
Nice Tip.
Why is this?
Because the paid-for "bloat" is per region. If you don't define the region..... taps side of forehead
Anyone got a spare Linux CD key?
You might like this little program: https://github.com/MrGlockenspiel/activate-linux
Yep, here you go: []
Thank you, now I've sucessfully activated GNU+Linux Mint.
Unironically I might for Lindows
I had not heard of Lindows. What a crazy world. Thanks for mentioning it.
just use Ventoy.
Been using Windows since XP, watched it get worse with every iteration while getting a shiny new exterior. Was finally forced from Windows 7 to Windows 10 a few years ago and the day Windows tries to foist 11 on me is the day I go fully down the Linux rabbit hole.
I've used Windows since 3.1. I thought XP was such a great advancement. I feel like 7 is overall better than XP, but not an all out improvement. 10 is worse than 7, but they're forcing 7 out. I hate 11. I want to by a new PC, and 11 is the biggest thing holding me back. Could I buy it and install something else? Sure, but I don't want to pay for this terrible program.
If your machine is capable of running windows 7 (properly) it's not capable of running Windows 11.
Man I don't miss Windows. Gaming, work, etc. all done on Linux here. I don't even use my dual boot anymore. Haven't for months. Probably need to just fully nuke my Windows drive and make it more storage for games.
I ended my dual boot around Win XP days. I only saw the Win 8 horror in store displays, and I only installed Win11 one time. OMG it sucked - the hell was MS doing demanding I sign up a ms account to install an OS?
I can't upvote you hard enough. I built a new machine in April when it was finally time to get off of Windows 7. I thought I'd try gaming on Linux since I heard it got so much better. Holy shit has it gotten better! In the last 5ish months I've only found one game I couldn't get to run and it was a demo. Starcraft 2, the new System Shock, pretty much everything I throw at it has been great. There's never been a better time to not have a Windows partition!
Same, built a PC this year, Intel CPU and Radeon GPU. "Dual boot" with win10 for gaming but after booting back and forth a couple times to test performance it just stays in Linux 24/7. At least I did a big NTFS partition with my Steam library on it (Proton emulated games will run on both!), so it's not like I'm out a ton of HDD space for the unused Windows system.
Yeah, take the plunge! I never liked dual boot and even though I liked Linux since the late 90's I never committed to it on my desktop due to it being mainly a gaming system. When Proton came around I dumped Windows and never regretted it :-). Especially after reading this article I'm happy I don't have to deal with that crap!
If only my work supported Linux - Siemens TIA Portal, Rockwel Studio 5000, Mitsubishi RSWorks3 - they're already struggling with Window$ updates, impossible to run on anything else.
Could those be run in a VM or a vApp deployment to avoid Windows Updates breaking them?
The enshittification started at Win 8 and has picked up speed.
People don't like to believe it but this shit started back in 95/98 or even earlier. It's kinda what Microsoft has always done.
I remember when I first installed Linux. I thought it was broken because it was so clean and distraction free.
I thought it was broken when I told it to poweroff and suddenly it just died. Nope, apparently that’s just how linux normally shuts down.
My laptop upgraded to Windows 11. It broke the headphone jack and built in speakers. The computer just doesn't detect them anymore. O_o
Windows 11 would CONSTANTLY turn off my headphones microphone at a hardware level. Running the "recording audio" troubleshooter was the only way to fix. Probably the only thing that windows troubleshooter fixed for me in 25 years.
Linux Mint worked out the box never going back. Feel bad for people who need Adobe.
I've had this happen too, multiple times. It's a pain in the ass to fix, and I have no idea where to start. I know you can force block driver updates for your speakers through windows update somewhere, that prevents this thing from happening again.
This is one of the best tools I've used, works really well!
I just reinstalled Windows after not having a computer for a long time. I'm glad I just happened across this beforehand because it was the best.
Everyone should use this to some extent, even just to disable tracking
It's awesome right?? Really impressed with the tool!
This will help get rid of some of the bloat. I run this on every w11 install I do.
https://github.com/ChrisTitusTech/winutil
God, I hate reinstalling Windows. Whenever I see "Try reinstalling Windows" as a serious solution to some tech problem on the Windows forums I feel so irritated because to get everything back to how it was (*hopefully *minus the issue) is basically a half day to full day undertaking because of all the bloat and annoying settings I have to change.
Linux never annoyed me as much as long as I put my home directory on a separate partition, though to be fair, I didn't use it as much and was never quite as balls deep in custom settings and apps as with Windows due to Windows being a requirement for work.
The last version of Windows I used (and loved) was Windows 2000. It was rock solid and came with nothing but the basics. The install ISO was only 300 MB. 500 MB after service packs were merged. Almost pefect.
I think we're starting to see the beginning of the end of the Windows hegemony, for one reason: the success of the Steam Deck has made gaming on Linux mainstream. The two things that have always kept power users tied to Windows have been games and office, but GAMES were the big one. Suddenly, it starts to look like it might be possible to do without Windows for gaming, if not now, then soon.
I'm still on Win10 but I just can't see myself moving to win11, it's ugly and I hate if. If I need to get a new OS in the foreseeable future it's gonna be Linux.
games is certainly a big appeal and will bring a lot of people over and has already frankly, but there's still a lot of device driver issues with consumer hardware and professional level hardware that is a barrier for a lot of people
and general Windows applications that just don't fly in Linux I guess
Once Windows 10 ceases to be supported, I'm moving to Linux. By that time, the majority, if not all the games I play and want to play will be supported.
If you're not playing games that require kernel level anti-cheats, chances are, they already work on Linux.
If your running Steam, enable running proton in settings. If your running GoG or Epic, use Heroic Launcher.
I've been Linux mainly since 2019. Only thing I really go back to Windows for is Photoshop and Vegas.
Dam you solitaire.
What’s annoying to me isn’t even a Microsoft product. Norton sends pop up’s and reminders every day by default after you purchase it and it drives me crazy.
(Mostly) mandatory Microsoft account sign-in.
Setup screen asking you about data collection and telemetry settings.
A (skippable) screen asking you to "customize your experience."
A prompt to pair your phone with your PC.
IDK man win11 is pretty simple to "debloat" and most of the shit in this article that they complain about is common on multiple Linux, Apple, android, etc. setup/install processes.
Win11 is dogshit for a variety of reasons, like the shitty new start menu formatting/lay out. The god awful menu nesting. The laggy audio panel. The list goes on.
If we're gonna be nitpicking an OS. Atleast nitpick shit that actually impacts operation and isnt also common on many OS'
Meh, imo windows just feels significantly worse. I setup a Linux desktop and there’s literally just a pop up that gives me a bunch of links which I can just close on first boot. When I was setting up a windows laptop last month it kept hammering me with that fullscreen “HELLO” thing that can’t be dismissed quickly. This is especially annoying given the number of times a fresh windows install needs to be rebooted while installing new software and drivers. Then there’s the bing/edge spam, and the ads in the start bar, and the in OS prompts to sign up for one drive and office…it feels like using an ad supported kindle except it isn’t any cheaper.
Yep i agree. That is why i prefer using Linux distros as my general use OSs.
Was just mainly pointing out the articles fallacies in their reasoning from the section i specifically quoted.
This is not true. Some Linux guis and installs also ask the 15 questions Microsoft asks about data collection? What Linux is that?
There is a world of difference here... You can't have used Linux nearly at all.
They ask about both diagnostic and telemetry options. Ubuntu 22.04. Default GUI prompts this during account fist login. Rocky 8 with default GUI asks this on initial user account login. Those are just the two i used over this past weekend.
At no point did i say it was the 20 questions that windows tosses at you. I purley stated it still happens.
So you can suck my dick with your shitty attitude trying to discredit me and my statement by misinterpretation and spinning what i said into your own dog shit interpretation.
It's actually harder to fully debloat than you might think. The truth is that stuff is there, it's just hiding where you don't go. Windows also reinstalls a lot of things during updates, including games and apps that you may not use.
I guess the question is, if it's not actively bothering you, is it really a problem?
Depends on user competencies with computers. It really isn't difficult to full remove. Its even easier to disable like you mentioned, and for most common users, out of site out of mind is a fine option.
Now i do think having to do so is dogshit and should not have to be the case. I'm just saying what i specifically quoted from the article, are not fully true.
Creating a local account on a clean install of Windows 11 currently requires disconnecting ethernet during setup, a secret keyboard shortcut to open a command prompt, and entering a special command. I'll be surprised if this workaround doesn't go away in the near future, too.
Yep exactly what i stated, you can create local accounts. It's dumb you have to do the work around, i agree with that.
I wonder if there are any Linux distros that include ads built into their core apps and menus. Windows does. But hey, we can disable them with some obscure combination of powershell commands and registry edits... temporarily. Should we really have to put up with that kind of crapware in software that we've paid for?
You're kidding yourself if you think Windows hasn't gotten worse in this regard. And Microsoft is carefully probing exactly how much their users will tolerate - because more ads mean more money. Annoying users is only an issue if the users actually leave. So this gentle gradual slide of enshitification is very deliberate and calibrated. People are pushed to the very edge of what they'll tolerate. If you continue to tolerate it, you'll likely be pushed a little bit further soon enough.
I agree its a load of garbage. But that wasn't the point of my statement vs. the directly quoted protion of the article i was referencing and reaponding to. The article list those issues as defaco issues, which they are solveable as i stated and was pointing out. Which occur in other OSs. Not to the extent of the garbage of windows 11.
Nothing i stated is untrue. You took the meaning and spun the context of my statement and spun it into me defending microsoft and windows11. Which i never did once.
The audio panel is definitely an issue, but Ear Trumpet solves it. I know relying on a third party solution for a system function isn't ideal, but Ear Trumpet is too good.
Idk, I like the new start menu, especially once they added folders to it. I rarely need to see everything in my start menu and having my most used stuff right up front is nice. The only thing I wish is that I could completely get rid of recently used files on the bottom half.
If the menu nesting is referring to what you get when you right-click something, then yes. That can die in a fire. I don't know who thought that was a good idea, and it's wild because many people thought it was. Something like that doesn't make it to production before passing teams of people.
![[Opinion] Windows 11 has made the “clean Windows install” an oxymoron](https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/69ae3950-e1be-4f31-b1dd-3ef3aaae0157.jpeg?format=webp&thumbnail=196)
![[HN] Windows 11 has made the “clean Windows install” an oxymoron](https://lemmy.uhhoh.com/pictrs/image/e8eaf4cd-7746-4034-ba2e-196a9930f505.jpeg?format=webp&thumbnail=196)