Public transit in Toronto, Canada ๐จ๐ฆ vs Chengdu, China ๐จ๐ณ
Public transit in Toronto, Canada ๐จ๐ฆ vs Chengdu, China ๐จ๐ณ
Comments
291-
-
All jokes aside, things like this are why China is beating us. I am absolutely not a fan of the Chinese government, but the simple fact is they get shit done.
-
It helps that in China you canโt own land. All the land is owned by the government. You only have โuse rightsโ and for a limited time (something like 80 years - I forget the exact number). So when it comes time to build infrastructure the government just tells you to gtfo.
-
Look to public transit development in Taiwan as an example of how to do it right in a democratic nation. There are still loads of problems but the Taiwanese government canโt just take your land outright. Taipei especially has seen phenomenal growth in its metro development in the last 20 years.
-
America is no different. Try not paying your land tax.
The only difference is that, in America, someone needs to shout "eminent domain!" first and slip you $500 for your house.
-
China has stronger property laws than the US, look up stuck nail houses. If the US wants your property, they can eminent domain your shit. In China, developers have literally had to swerve highways around property or build shopping centers around that one person who wont sell
-
Wait until you hear about the UK! I own the freehold to my land, but technically it's gramted by the crown, so I could in theory at any moment have my home taken from me.
-
And China has slave labor
-
Wrong, the state owns the land but you can own the house, and not just for your 70y BS period.
There are plenty of articles like of instances where homeowners don't want to sell for infrastructure like this: https://twistedsifter.com/2012/11/china-builds-highway-around-house/
I know for a fact here in EU or the US they will indeed " just tells you to gtfo"
BTW, in China a high 90% of people OWN their house and aren't rentslaves.
So there's that China bad man.
-
-
No just any shit, shit that helps everyday people living in their country.
I'm just thinking of the major cities in my U.S. state where the public transit map, before and after, looks like Chengdu in 2010. So as unfortunate as the circumstances are in Toronto, they can be even worse.
-
One of the reasons they can build their future so quickly is because they were left in a unique position after WW2 to effectively destroy their past.
-
-
I cant find statistics on total occupancy rates, but I never saw a high speed train in China that wasnt mostly full, and they mosty sell out days beforehand, so Im pretty sure that's just someone making shit up. As far as domestic debt due to infrastructure spending, apply your model to Japan.
Turns our neoliberalism was always full of shit, a jobs program that produces useful infrastructure is infinitely better than leaving people unemployed or subsidizing walmart's wages.
-
Overproduction of commodities is certainly a problem for capitalists. But the workers get to enjoy a lower cost of living. Like I would much prefer we built ghost cities (Chengdu was derided as a ghost city at one point) than have a decades long housing crisis with no signs of improving unless we deport millions of people.
-
Much of the growth in China is entirely artificial and is basically a glorified jobs program. China builds tons of cities throughout the country to generate construction contracts and keep people employed.
I'd infinitely much rather have meaningful job programs that actually increase the real amount of wealth in the nation (such as public transport and housing) than whatever crisis the west has by building too little housing for people for the last few decades simply to make the cost of the existing real estate go up further so landlords can ask higher rents. What a nightmare, what a disaster. How could anybody shill for this?
-
-
LOL thanks for your unfunded BS CIA.
-
-
-
Chengdu is the capital city of the Chinese province of Sichuan. With a population of 20,937,757 at the 2020 census.
Toronto is the most populous city in Canada and the capital city of the Canadian province of Ontario. With a population of 2,794,356 in 2021
-
DONT BRING NUANCE AND LOGIC TO A SENSELESS FEELINGS-BAITING POST! It doesnโt MATTER the city layout over top of it, the context of rapid and rampant industrialization in China, or something as inconsequential as number of people!
-
i don't understand your reasoning here. are you saying that Toronto hasn't needed more subway lines than a couple extensions in 15 years? how does the number of people affect the lines? i would think it should affect the number of trains and trips. the lines would be more about where people live and want to go, no?
-
Reading past your sarcasm, you're suggesting that it's better to have reduced public transit options than investing into them. I'm curious to hear your reasoning to argue that.
-
China BAD?
-
-
NYC with almost half of the population of Chengdu.
-
Not too bad... With how things are going, if Mamdani wins, I could see NYC turning into a progressive city-state of sorts that people from the rest of the country will flock to for refuge.
With funding from the federal government drying up, the differences between states are going to start getting much larger and blue states (and in cases like NYC large metro areas) are going to need to step up and fill in the gaps. It's going to be rough, but I believe that places with more progressive laws/ideals are in a better position to weather it.
-
-
What is the required population threshold for investing into public transit? Above 3 million and below 20 million, it seems, but can you be more specific?
-
Other comments have pointed out that Toronto also has a light rail system and other solutions. This post shows just the metro systems of both cities. Maybe when there's an order of magnitude difference in population, the exact transit solutions needed differ?
-
Why is it my job to provide policy? Can you be more specific?
-
-
I don't care about the post itself, but OP, in the last 24 hours you've made something like 80 posts. What the fuck?
-
Bot, perhaps?
-
Nope. I'm definitely not a bot.
I regularly post a lot of articles from some websites, but you will notice my patterns can be extremely irregular. There are some articles that I don't find interesting/attractive, so I just don't share them.
However, I do find the rise of sophisticated bots worrying.
-
-
Maybe they're not just mildly infuriated.
-
Population: Chengdu over 20 million vs. under 3 million in Toronto.
The maps above also seem to be differently scaled.
Also, the fact that it has technologically developed fast in the past decades, as compared to Canada that has developed steadily in the past century, is not really the gotcha OP seems to imply it is.
That said, it's perfectly possible that public transport in Toronto leaves much to be desired - without comparing it to Chengdu.
-
Not to undermine your point on the demand, but note that Chengdu's population has grown <7 million since phase 1 of Line 1 (the 18.5km middle quarter of the navy purple line; for reference the green Toronto line is 26.2km) was opened, while the decades that preceded this saw the city having similar population growth rates to Toronto.
The maps above also seem to be differently scaled.
The Toronto map is ~2x more-a-zoomied-in, judging by the distances between the farthest stations. In 2024, looking at the track maps, the driving distance between the farthest stations (Vaghan Met. to Victoria Park) is 36km while that of Chengdu (ๅคฉๅบๆบๅบๅ to ไฝๅ ฌ่ทฏ) is 93 km.
-
Having moved to Toronto from NYC, transit could be much worse. NYC's is larger due to the greater population but nearly everything else about it is trash tier. Gods help you if you need to go to a borough other than Manhattan. I honestly much prefer Toronto's transit.
Also, the picture leaves out a lot of context. There's a large network of street cars and busses that fills in the gaps here, as well as a massive underground pedestrian network called the PATH. The subways are only a small part of the equation.
(Currently writing this from a TTC street car)
-
Don't forget Chinese corner cutting. You probably have to knock 25% off of that if you want infrastructure of a level of quality and safety tolerable to Westerners.
I think it's fair to guess China is less car-obsessed than Canada, and more serious about fighting climate change. That being said, without cheating it becomes pretty obvious we're working with the same technology and fundamental logistics in this map.
-
Don't forget Chinese corner cutting. You probably have to knock 25% off of that if you want infrastructure of a level of quality and safety tolerable to Westerners.
Is that a thing? It sounds a bit like some bullshit propaganda from here. China = bad.
-
what do you mean "knock 25% off of that" (off what?) and "without cheating it becomes pretty obvious we're working with the same technology and fundamental logistics in this map"? sorry i'm just struggling to parse this
-
-
-
as someone who lives in Toronto I mean....you really don't need an extensive subway network here. We have a lot of buses and several lines of street cars (trollys, trains on the road, whatever you call them where you live).
So what's being shown here is ONLY the subway network. it doesn't show the vast street car lines would would make it look A LOT like the China photo.
-
mean....you really don't need an extensive subway network here
Found the 905'er
The streetcar network is a complete shitshow. Multiple streetcars bunched up, with hundreds of people inside, being blocked by a few SUV drivers and parked cars on the side of the street.
Its faster to bike or walk in most cases.
Same for the buses. There's a reason the bus lines here have nicknames like "the sufferin' dufferin"
-
At grade == weak
Toronto isn't filled with great alternate modes of mass transit so much as it's filled with excuses not to build mass transit.
Let me weep in "Ontario line".
-
is this why there is no traffic problems in Toronto and commute is not a suicide inducing nightmare?
-
The last video of Not Just Bikes is specifically about Toronto's streetcar.
-
street cars
Is at least one of them called Desire?
-
-
Public transport policy in Toronto is a disaster. It is a complete disappointment of a city and an ugly blight on the landscape that serves only captialism and vapid mediocrity
-
its sad im over here in Dallas and im envious of Toronto.
-
Here in San Antonio we have zero rail so...
-
-
It's a disaster until you compare it to most other North American cities. Like what is better? NYC and Montreal? I'm sure there are a few other cities that I can't think of.
But its true that it has been neglected for decades. Thankfully that has changed a bit recently with 2 new lines being in construction. However the maintenance budget is continually insufficient to keep everything in good repair. Only new projects make your government look good I guess. (But we need both new projects and maintenance)
-
I agree that North America is appalling. I grew up in Europe, so that is my main comparison.
The two new lines would be helpful, but as someone that lived in Toronto for 15 years until very recently, I believe they were horribly mismanaged. Like most of the city isโฆ
-
-
And still WAY ahead of a ton of similarly sized cities on the continent
-
-
What's up with all the China hype on Lemmy? These projects are impressive, no doubt, but their cost in terms of human rights violations are pretty high. I'm speaking generally, I don't have the specifics with regards to this subway system. Either way it's not really comparable to a project like this in a country like Canada imo.
-
!meanwhileongrad@sh.itjust.works
Lemmy has tankie problem.
-
you are the problem
-
-
-
Some countries want to sell the image of "China is the absolute evil", thus from this logic everything "good" must equal something very evil.
-
Some of those are valid, some are stupid as hell.
For the covid ones - the cost was complete lockdown, with some people's doors being welded shut (not official government policy, but common enough to make news, as lower level authorities get some decision making power in these cases). Imagine having an emergency and your door being welded shut. And of course we later found out that even multi-dose vaccines don't stop covid 100%, so instead of stopping the pandemic forever, nothing of value was actually achieved. Covid is the new seasonal flu. For a while we didn't even get vaccines for Covid here in Estonia anymore, though now they're back on the table, free if you're in a high risk group.
Electric cars - the cost is mass government subsidies for BYD and a couple of others. BYD doesn't make money if they sell you a car I believe, they make money from the Chinese government if they sell you a car. Even if you're in another country. China wants their EVs to dominate the market and that's a strategy. This is why the EU had to raise tariffs on Chinese cars. Otherwise the European auto industry would simply die.
-
-
We donโt have to agree with Chinaโs politics to appreciate that they did a positive thing. And we shouldnโt have to emulate their politics to get a thing done. We should be able to do it
-
Something about a street being made that leads into hades.
-
-
What helps is that the aumomotive/gas industry lobby there isnt so effective.
-
Lemmy is more international than Reddit, so you'll see more diverse perspectives
-
The speed and size is impressive, yes.
But I doubt the quality.
"Tofu-dreg project" (Chinese: ่ฑ่ ๆธฃๅทฅ็จ) is a phrase used in the Chinese-speaking world to describe a very poorly constructed building, sometimes called just "Tofu buildings". The phrase is notably used referring to buildings that collapsed in the 2008 Sichuan earthquake disaster,[1][2][3][4][5][6] and the Bangkok Audit Office skyscraper collapse initiated by aftershocks from the March 2025 Myanmar earthquake over 1000km away, which was constructed with poor construction techniques and materials
-
Pentagon wasted tax money on facebook bots to convince people in East Asia that the chinese covid vaccine was poison, so no one is really buying the "China human rights abuses are what allow China to succeed" idea anymore.
Especially since you can just as easily point to Japan's infrastructure projects which achieved the same thing under US supervision post WWII, meaning said human rights violations aren't even a supposed cost if there's less evidence of it that of UAE literally pirating in immigrants to build their lavish towers and stadiums.
Of which the US fully supports, so this just goes back to the blame game of who is worse.
Yes, China has some shady ideas of what is considered acceptable behavior and work output from citizens, but the point is that they are using it to rapidly grow their infrastructure, unlike NA which take a decade for a single transit system to get approved all while car OEMs are pumping out dumpsterfire vehicles of whose parts are overwhelmingly made in China.
-
I don't know about Canada but the USA has been pro-child factory work lately. China's wages have been rising faster than expected so they have gone all-in on automation. So when I see people claim their stuff is cheap because of "slavery" or human rights, it reads like projection.
-
I'm from neither the US nor Canada, and in my case it certainly isn't a matter of projection. I'm sure things have been getting a lot better for many people in China. However, it is still the case that China has a lot of human rights issues which are simply not as widespread in a lot of Western countries, the US included. And due to nation wide systems, such as hukou, it is very difficult for the population in poorer, rural areas to work legally in more affluent areas where the pay is higher. My understanding is that this has led to large scale "illegal migration" within the country's borders, where workers are paid far less (sometimes not getting paid at all), work under poor conditions, and suffer abuses at the hands of their employers with little to no legal recourse due to their illegal status. China is a very inequitable society, and a lot of the misery that its less rich and powerful citizens have to deal with goes unnoticed by the rest of the world (and indeed the rest of its population), because we see stuff like this and are impressed by China's progress. And no doubt that there's actually been progress in a lot of areas, but the somewhat tired "at what cost?" question is still as pertinent as ever.
None of this is a defense of the US or Canada. Just saying that for the average person, China is probably a worse place to live and to work in.
-
-
-
lol, as if it's all magic?
Does the sinkhole caused by slapdash construction feature on the map?
How about the shed where 4 people died during construction?
https://www.chinadaily.com.cn/a/202109/11/WS613ba6e7a310efa1bd66ebdc.html
-
We have had industrial accidents and deaths as well... We may have better safety standards but going from no subway system to a massive full city system more robust than Western countries in a fraction of the time is pretty remarkable.
-
Digging tunnels is dangerous. Especially if you dont have a century of experience to build off of.
-
This is like the 2 extremes. China with terrible human rights violation and sloppy construction and cities where even thinking about mass public transit is akin to killing puppies.
-
How many lives are saved by not having people in cars?
-
-
-
While your comment is very amusing, accessibility and congestion are pretty high up on the list of things that make a place "nice." A deep Investment into public transit is very likely to have a positive impact on an inhabitant's happiness.
(Incidentally, it's ironic that you have leapt to the conclusion that one of these cities is "winning" while nothing of the sort is stated in the post, only then to take objection to people drawing such conclusions.)
-
-
Yep, developing country is developing? Holy crap, imagine that!
Add to that, Toronto's transit system includes light rail that pulls together a much wider geographical area, outside its subway system. It's a pretty good system, actually
-
-
Did ... Did they close stations on the Eastern line in Toronto?
-
Yeah. Line 3 used different rolling stock than the other three lines, unusual linear induction motor powered equipment, which was reaching the end of its service life. The plan was to shut it down in November 2023 and temporarily replace it with bus service while they built a Line 2 extension to serve the neighborhoods Line 3 used to. Unfortunately, a train derailed in July 2023, which resulted in the system shutting down four months sooner than expected.
The Line 2 extension is going to take a different route to eventually arrive at Line 3โs old terminus. I think thereโs plans to covert the old line 3 viaduct into a Bus Rapid Transit guideway.
-
If I'm not mistaken, the rolling stock (cars/trains) from the, now closed, Scarborough line is actually in use in Detroit because they used the same systems.
-
-
-
Orange vs Apple! Who will win!
That being said I do wish every country would have a better public infrastructure.
Just out of curiosity if you do have recent research in economy on the impact of subway, tram, bus, bike lanes, etc on both productivity AND happiness, please do share. I'm already convinced but I'd love to learn more on how and why.
-
Very recent, non-peer reviewed research, n=1. It makes me very happy to be able to nap on a subway/night bus or safely ride a bicycle or somewhat less safely ride a motorbike. My productivity is the same because I work remotely.
-
Apples every day of the week.
-
-
-
This. 20 million vs. under 3 million in Toronto.
Also, the fact that it has technologically developed fast in the past decades, as compared to Canada that has developed steadily in the past century, is not really the plus OP seems to imply it is.
That said, it's perfectly possible that public transport in Toronto leaves much to be desired - without comparing it to China.
-
Also, the fact that it has technologically developed fast in the past decades, as compared to Canada that has developed steadily in the past century, is not really the plus OP seems to imply it is.
Why not? What am I missing? It's developing fast against a slow competition is not a plus? I am not a fan of china but what kind of cope is this?
-
-
Berlin has 1.4 times the population of Toronto and a train system comparable to Chengdu.
Our tram network is proportionally bigger than Toronto. It could be a lot better but all trams in west Berlin where removed while the city was divided.
-
That's what federal directive and funding will do.
-
That's what a single-party government, where NIMBYs and minorities have no power, can do.
-
I dont think that it requires a single party system to do this. Just much more coordinated public industries and infrastructure projects where public development is prioritized.
-
-
-
I do think there needs to be a shift in how the government invests in this country, but the answer isnโt โletโs go authoritarianโ. Governments need to stop looking for big, complicated answers though and realize that production and growth comes from within, and improving mobility increases production, simple as that. You can invest in industries till the cows come home, but the optics of giving tax breaks and incentives to companies when it takes John 2 hours to drive to work is never going to be good.
-
Bet money America's interstate highway system would not pass today's Congress. And can you imagine conservatives removed about the spend?!
For non-Americans, our interstate highways are federally funded, safe, consistently engineered and tie the country together. If interstates magically disappeared, our economy would collapse within a month.
-
can you imagine conservatives removed about the spend?!
Nonsense. They wouldn't even know that 'spend' isn't a noun when you're not on the car lot. #soFetch
-
Interstate highway is oil. Interstate highway is love.
-
-
I do think there needs to be a shift in how the government invests in this country, but the answer isnโt โletโs go authoritarianโ.
In the end, its more about getting things done, and investing in society, rather than how strongly you can shout your opinion about transgender folk. A government that invests in society is one not focused on either enriching itself, or cutting all social spending to fund tax cuts for oligarchs. When the only acts we/society/rulers ever implement is giveaways to their sponsors, you could think about your programming that tells you your rulership is the best system of all.
-
improving mobility increases production
Can you restate that in a way that makes it clear that the billionaire class will be able to utilize the project to rape and pillage society and increase income inequity? Otherwise, I don't see how anyone can support it.
-
-
Wikipedia article for reference.
The Chengdu Metro is now the fourth largest metro system in the world with 630 km. To compare, London's Unterground has about 400 km.
-
Maybe a car tunnel and more lanes, ready in 15-30 years, will solve the congestion!
-
Brilliant! Let's also plan on self driving cars to increase total throughput and completely block out pedestrians on the street so the cars can go zoom zoom... Until induced demand locks it all up again.
-
-
There's loads of countries and cities around the world with better public transit than Toronto.
Plenty with democratic elections and freedom of expression too.
Only one reason someone would pick China over anywhere else.
-
They just started the Ontario line. W are still waiting for he Eglinton Street car. i get your frustration! I think it's a financial issue mainly, because the last CEO did a post about that, and said there is no money for expansion, and they had to ask government.
-
There is not even enough money for proper maintenance let alone new construction! Of course new construction looks good politically so it will get separate budgets while the existing infrastructure slowly crumbles. Look at the "reduced speed zones" that have lasted for years because the rails can't properly be maintained.
-
-
A nation's big construction projects tend to happen when labour is at its cheapest.
-
21st century Laozi
-
-
I might be wrong but a lot of it's wikipedia page looks like this city was completely reconstructed from the ground up in said period of time that makes it too exceptional for this comparison and not a usual occurence even in China. It became a major hub of China-EU trade upping it's importance and neccesitating a boost in infrastructural efficiency while it's population effectively doubled. A great move all around tho.
-
Is this another bot that all hails great mother china? They use people like disposable biomass when building this crap.
-
Do you have statistics from the last 15 years to back up that claim?
-
Here is an analysis on construction related fatalities in China.
And here is some reporting construction related fatalities in the US
-
-
Doesn't Toronto have the tram lines east west or trolley busses and buses with cheap flat price through ticketing for each journey?
The cables over and underground run from the cheap, green hydroelectric power?
If it's cheap, regular, reliable with through ticketing, it's good public transport, not bad.
-
I still find it unbelievable that a full subway line was just erased and there was no plan for a replacement.
-
When you say "public transit", does that include bus lines, or only rail?
-
Only rail. Toronto has an excellent bus network that is not pictured here.
-
a free sample of public transit. buy one get one free
-
-
Toronto is more bound to US economics than Chinese economics. You could make the same map for every major city and probably tell which they were more influenced by.
-
Toronto in 1990 was approximately the same map.
-
Yeah but how much of that is up to code?
-
Probably most if not all. Despite some well publisized failures these big government transit projects tend to be pretty good. It's amazing how fast you can get things done if you don't care about zoning, the environment, money, worker conditions or safety.
-
(American) zoning (besides industrial/residential) is bullshit anyway.
Just give me the three major industrial, mixed residential/commercial and some small purely residential zones and be done with it.
No need to basically outlaw a business in a residential area.
-
-
-
-
Easy when all the equipment and materials needed are made by the same people that will build it
-
I think the average construction worker in Chengdu made around $3 to $4 per hour building this. Not sure of the safety conditions.
-
According to https://www.statista.com/statistics/278351/average-wage-of-employed-persons-in-urban-units-in-china/ it's about $6 USD per hour. Note that the cost of living for a single person is ~$495.3 per month excluding rent, which costs ~$181.54 per month according to https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/in/Chengdu, which seems about right. I only found 4 deaths and if there are any more they haven't been reported, though anecdotally I've never heard screaming around construction sites.
-
$6 now. What about 15 years ago? Rent in the city is $181/mo? That would be for a 1 bedroom outside the city. Double that for room for a family and you might be able to just get by paycheck to paycheck. While living in a polluted city(another money saving tactic)
Edit: I believe migrant workers played a large role in building this. Where did they live? Likely in employer provided housing. Yes. Proper sanitation? Likely no. Imagine the outcry using this cheap technique to build in Toronto.
-
-
You can think whatever you like I suppose, but it helps if you provide a source.
-
-
We also have non labour's camps
-
man China is knocking it out of the park.
they are so successful!
/s
-
There is a reason why European countries stopped building wonders, while other parts of the world keep on undergoing tremendous construction efforts.
The reason is slavery.
I guess itโs easier to undertake a massive infrastructure project if you can just tell residents to move it or elseโฆ
The idea that you get to put a stake in the ground and then that plot of dirt yours forever is insane. The amount of infrastructure projects in Denmark that are put on hold indefinitely because locals are upset, not at being forced to move, but because they think they own their land and the view, is nuts.
I agree. There needs to be a middle ground. In Germany, NIMBYs opposed to wind turbines because theyโre supposedly loud and ugly, as well as NIMBYs opposed to high-capacity power lines have become somewhat of a meme.
The right way to handle this is buying the land at a reasonable price (where you actually need to build on someoneโs land, not buying โthe viewโ).
Itโs either your land or itโs someone elseโs. In a place like China the government owns all the land which means itโs all owned by wealthy, ultra-powerful, ultra-connected party elites. At no point is there a situation where millions or billions of people all share land in common. There is always politics, there will always be powerful elites, there will always be people getting screwed over.
The difference with Denmark is that individual small people have a tiny bit more power than individuals in China. The fact that this results in progress being impeded is a tradeoff that brings enormous benefits for personal freedom.
Read about the construction of the Three Gorges Dam. Over a million people were forcibly displaced from their homes as a result. Many cities, towns, and villages were completely destroyed. The living conditions of the displaced deteriorated and their lives were irrevocably altered.
Is it less insane than the government owns it forever?
Preferable to the idea that the state can come in and force your local area to bend to its will.
Gestures in eminent domain.
What I thought as well, but that still pays the residents fair housing market value.
Careful, you might get a ban from .ml for saying that
The Chinese government is the most ethical government in the world according to people in .ml haha. Really boggles the mind
Also easier when you don't need to worry you'll be voted out for spending tax money on a massive infrastructure project.
No, they do, the big difference is that they'll be voted out and replaced by someone else from the same party.
Because there's only one party.
it's a metro, no need to move anyone...
Metros arenโt always underground. They also need entrances to their stops above ground.
Is that what they did? It's a legitimate question, I'm not finding info online.
Except China respects user rights to an insane degree and there's many images of giant infra projects going around one tiny homestead and whatnot. My guess is also Chinese typically are less game to make a big deal about new transit compared to the home owners of Canada. Where's the Toronto excuse now?