1y ago

Two years under Taliban rule in Afghanistan: ‘I never thought the world would forget about us so quickly’

english.elpais.com Two years under Taliban rule in Afghanistan: ‘I never thought the world would forget about us so quickly’

Those who left and those who could not flee speak of a country in ruins and decry the world’s apathy towards the humanitarian crisis and the lack of rights, mainly for women, which a UN report describes as ‘gender apartheid’

342 comments

Remember when the Afghan people had a phenomenally well equipped and well trained army, and then they just gave up inside a week because things were “hard”?
Like if you don’t give a shit…no one is going to give a harder shit about you than you will.
- Yeah man, I feel sorry for the people who will have to live under the fucking Taliban, but we've spent way too much time, money and blood on Afghanistan already.
  We shouldn't have been there in the first place, but for them to just instantly roll over to the Taliban... Just compare it to Ukraine, where they are fighting for their lives and freedom against a much more powerful enemy.
  It's long past time for Afghanistan to deal with their own problems.
  
  Yeah, like what do they expect? Another foreign military intervention?
  That will not happen again for decades at best. Longer if all the developed nations really learn from America's mistake this time.
  Sure, we can sanction them, but any aid just gets intercepted, so that's out. It sucks so many Afghans are suffering under the system, but it's the system they let happen. Did they want to be an occupied country forever? Was this a fight America was expected to wage indefinitely? Twenty years was already too long.
  
  They should have trained the Afghani women who have an actual reason to fight against the Taliban, instead of the lazy men who instantly capitulated.
  
  Tbf Afghanistan defeated a much stronger Russia back in the 80s.
  With less help than Ukraine gets.
  Edit: so the downvotes are just ignorant of history or are they trying to rewrite it to suit their own agendas? Regardless, not a good sign for the future.
- I wonder if it was "hard" or "I want the Taliban to take over." There's probably a decent amount of people in that area that can fundamentally agree with the Taliban. it's a religious and oppression group. If you're ideologically aligned with the Taliban, and male, you're probably either as good or better of under them.
  Not saying this is everything but I imagine there's at least some people who are ok with the new government, mostly because they don't care about others over their own self.
- First of all, none of these women were in that army so painting this as the consequences of their actions seems a bit dishonest.
  Second, I remember when they were alleged to have a phenomenal army but it turned out most of that was on paper not real.
  The facade crumbled.
  
  I wonder how things would have turned out if the US had built up divisions of the Afghan army with women.
  
  none of these women were in that army so painting this as the consequences of their actions seems a bit dishonest.
  What makes you think that these women who choose their culture as dignity would oppose their rulers which they gained power from it?
- The Afghan army seemed totally incompetent. Examples:
  Like looking after 26 children on hashish
  They can't even do jumping jacks
- Remember that the government is installed by the US and allies. If they actually care, the could have spent some time to find candidates that can gather people around and build a unionized front along with education and infrastructure. The reality is they put a thief in power who is now living somewhere in Europe and enjoying his wealth.
  Blaming a victim complaining about their experience or at least expectations is in bad taste.
  
  candidates that can gather people around and build a unionized front along with education and infrastructure
  I don't think that person existed in Afghanistan.
- The ANA never had very good moral, just read the experiences of US troops with them.
- Remember when the Afghan people had a phenomenally well equipped and well trained army, and then they just gave up inside a week because things were “hard”?
  You didn't read the Afghanistan Papers did you?
  
  You gonna link or

I'd have more sympathy for the people of Afghanistan if they had actually fought back against the Taliban.
People say that America lost in Afghanistan, but we were basically the only thing propping up democracy. The people themselves made no effort.
- Yeah agree. Like what does the world need to do for your country internal problem.
  
  Did the USA invade for altruistic reasons? I highly doubt so
- Outside of Kabul it seemed the average rural person felt that they had to choose between a temporary US occupation supporting an uninterested government vs the Taliban who were all around them on a daily basis and would take over the second the US left. They did the safe thing and sided with the Taliban.

At some point, the people of Afghanistan should be able to take control of their own country. How can a vast majority of the people sit there and let a tiny percentage dictate the lives and rules for everyone? Kick the Taliban out of your country.
- The problem is that the Taliban have popular support. The media don't want to report it, but this is a society where public life has always been under the purview of men, it's a largely Muslim country, very rural, and the alternative power centers there are chock full of child molesters and corrupt individuals. The Taliban, despite their strong ideological position, has a lot going for them. They're not taking bribes to sell out their values. They're capable of maintaining stability. Even if people disagree with some or other things about them, theyre better than the alternatives. Fact is, they're in power there because they're the only organization capable of holding power there.
  
  it’s a largely Muslim country
  Pretty much all the Abrahmic religions do this shit when they're in power...
  I wouldn't have pointed it out, because it's kind of like saying the sky is blue. But from the rest of your comment it seems like you legitimately think it's just Muslims., And not that entire religious family
  
  It reminds me of Iraq right before 9/11 happened.. ye they had a piece of shit dictator Sadam; absolutely. But they wasn't being bombed to smithereens. And in the mess of war in Iraq the ISIS were able to fuck shit up n grow , even growing into syria, Afghanistan n maybe other countries...
- How can a vast majority of the people sit there and let a tiny percentage dictate the lives and rules for everyone?
  As an American looking at American policy right now...that's ironic.
  
  Yeah but they're extremists and terrorists who want to control all aspects of the media, stop women from having rights over their bodies and return to their place in society serving men, criminalize everything that goes against their religious beliefs and restrict voting and democracy to preserve their 'values', carry guns with them everywhere and fanatically praise their leaders.
  Err, there's some differences somewhere I'm sure..
- The problem is that “the people of Afghanistan” don’t see themselves as a united people. Regional and tribal ties are far, far stronger in the region than any true sense of national identity outside of “let’s cooperate just long enough to kick these fucking foreigners out”. Immediately after that’s accomplished, the region regresses into very old-school power politics and warlord fiefdoms. This has happened twice now in the space of 50 years. The truly galling point, though, is that US leaders and officials should have known this… but there were effectively zero coherent plans to handle that aspect of the occupation.
- How can a vast majority of the people sit there and let a tiny percentage dictate the lives and rules for everyone?
  Is that a serious question?
  The vast majority of the world lives like that...
  Even in first world countries.
  I'm American, and a very very tiny percentage of other Americans hold the vast amount of wealth and use it to buy the majority of both parties off so that literally no matter who wins any election, they're going to be someone that puts corporate profits over the average American.
  Where do you live that's truly led by the majority?
  
  Fun fact, the dynamic where the majority class controls the "rules" is called communism. Maybe they want us to give it a go here in the US?
- A lot of the Afghanistan problem is that they have no national identity, they're a collection of tribes and warlords, so the only united group in the country is the Taliban, and the Taliban has a lot of help from Pakistan and other regional powers.
  
  What in the racist fuck is this generalization?
- Same way stuff happens in the USA... inequality n disparity keeps growing... The ruling / wealthy 🤑 class keeps consolidating wealth n we all just go on with our lives... Don't we?

IDK exactly what the "world" can do here. The Taliban is the legit government of Afghanistan now (well, maybe legit should be in quotes). Do people want another war to take out the Taliban? That didn't go so well the first time. And there are already sanctions on the Taliban's government but other countries are still willing to trade with them.
I don't see any international fix working here. There needs to be internal change. Whether that's reform, coup, or whatever.
- I hate it when you see the media (e.g. the BBC) going on about the latest awful government somewhere or some nation falling apart. The implication of course is they want someone to march in and save it, of course this means using force because the people there who are the problem aren't going to leave willingly. So then you end up with a war and all the things that go with war (our guys dying, civilians get killed, accidents, etc) and then the media comes back and says how awful this war is, how civilians are getting killed, how things aren't much better, etc.

You aren’t forgotten. US and allies accepted the decision that was made within a week of us leaving. The country, as a whole, collectively chose the easy route of Taliban rule. That decision has consequences.
- Yeah, I mean, we were over there for well over a decade trying to fix that shit and the country as a whole just did not want to change, so we gave up and left. It was a giant waste for everyone involved.
  
  Lol yeah that's totally what happened in. It definitely wasn't a scam where we turned Afghanistan into a black hole for contractor money.
  It's unbelievable how naive and arrogant this thread is. How low can you get?
  
  trying to fix
  😂😂👆
  A giant waste for everyone
  😂😂😂😂😂😂👆👆👆 Except the military money machine
  
  You didn't go to fix shit. You went because you wanted revenge. You stayed because a lot of people made money.
  Everybody told you back them you can't fix Afghanistan's issues by force. You just killed a lot of Afghanis for nothing.
  Then you went to Iraq.
- The feeling there was....
  The gov didn't care about anyone outside of Kabul.
  They knew the US wouldn't be there forever and the ANA had shitty moral. The Taliban however would be there when the US left and people didn't want to be targeted for revenge killings, etc.
- 20-year boondoggle, you know.. The easy route...
  
  Many people including Americans are suffering and have been forgotten because of what happened over there. I guarantee there are many that wish they had done things differently and just minded their own business. Patriotism is a powerful con.

There was an attempt at nation building and it didn't go well. Afghanistan and the Middle East is a culturally complicated place, it's mostly tribes and smaller villages with a lot of history. It's hard to point fingers at the US for leaving when a decent chunk of the country either didn't care, or didn't want them there anymore.
- Even if the US intentions were good (and they were not great, basically being revenge for 9/11), who wants to be ruled by a foreign invader?
  If some alien superpower invaded the USA tomorrow, gave them free healthcare, 40 days holiday a year from work, legalised abortion again and mountains of affordable housing in the places people actually wanted to live, they'd still fight back. Even if it meant things going back to how they were before.
  
  Bold of you to think people would fight back against that lol.
  That actually sounds incredible
  
  I would take that deal. All hail our Alien overlords. Now, the south would not be pleased ... but they have a losing record in armed conflict.
  
  I would not fight that. I already think that we are ruled by outsiders (rich, geriatric boomers).
- I mean, literally any other country in the world is welcome to step in and fix it. Imagine the bragging rights at the next UN summit. "We fixed Afghanistan!" No? No takers? Alright.
  
  As cynical as a take as that is, yeah national building hard espically out there. People will resist change, you have very little infrastructure to work with, and a poor little esucation population
- The proper noun Middle East needs work.
  
  Thank you
- The second part sounds a bit like a copout. They have done military interventions in a lot of different regions. The US has ransacked a growing number of countries just to get rid of a small amount of "baddies".
  You don't get to destroy shit and leave. If you play world police, start doing the whole job, not parts of it. And I'm totally fine with US starting less interventions because they don't wanna clean up after themselves. Probably a net positive given the history in the middle east.
  
  I think at this point it's best that the administration just got out because it appeared it was never going to get better. Just my perspective at reading about the attempts to build administration and actually get local citizens to build and manage their own sustainable government structures in place and it never taking off. Just read anything about the army's attempts to create a competent Afghani security force.
  We never should have intervened in the first place, and should have gotten out as soon as we could.
  
  I agree with you, but also... they absolutely did not want us there. America isn't trying to colonize.
  The people in power are corrupt, the world around. Religious states, doubly so.
  We can't even control the zealots rising up in our own country.
  
  The thing is, we weren't there for a decade just destroying things. A few years, absolutely. But the rest of the time was spent trying to clean up and rebuild. Maybe the US just isn't good at that, but what else can we do at this point? Returning would just be meddling again and earn ire.

Quickly forget? Didn't US spend like 20 years there?
- Yeah, but we aren't reporting at the level we used to.
  But to be fair, we still ignored Afghanistan a lot during the occupation.
  
  Why should we? Honestly, if I was American, I would be salty about this as hell. So much money spent and then they give up the moment US leaves? Apparently they got exactly what they wanted. Sure, not everyone likes it, but don't blame the world "forgetting" about you, this shit is entirely of their doing.
  
  If all you use are facts, the soundbites aren’t as good.

I'm not sure what people want, exactly. 20 years of occupation wasn't enough to change their culture even a little bit. Do they want permanent American occupation? That's clearly untenable for many reasons. I don't want America to be the world police, and I don't want them invading countries on moral grounds.
Any aid given to Afghanistan immediately ends up in the hands of the Taliban now.
- Might as well annex Afghanistan and make them a state of the Union, then some changes could happen.

We spent twenty years fighting their battles for them, $2.3 trillion spent helping build up their infrastructure, supplying them with weapons and training, and trying to help them build a legitimate democratic government. After all our efforts, expenses, and American lives lost, it took the Taliban just ten days to retake the entire country. Freedom can't be given it has to be won, and frankly they weren't willing to fight for theirs... and I say this as a disabled combat veteran who lost dozens of friends to this conflict either in combat or to their own hands once they returned home. What a waste.
- To be fair Russia, the UK and the US also took turns totaly destroying the country for the better part of the last century. We can't give them their freedom back on a plate but we shouldn't forget that we're also the ones that took it away. That money and those lives weren't some kind of gift they were an attempt to undo the collective damage we've done. Well the American/British money and lives, pretty sure Russia didn't give a crap.
  
  The Soviets had their go at nationbuilding. Their puppet state survived eight years after they withdrew as well, which is a fair bit longer than the ten days we managed.
  
  You can go back to Alexander the Great. Mountainous regions have always been notoriously hard to control with other regions like the Caucasus and the Balkans as examples. They tend to be fragmented and loosely connected.
- Wow I'm american and this is some american kool aide if I've ever seen it. The Taliban is evil but the framing of the invasion and occupation as some noble humanitarian effort is like newsmax propaganda.
  
  Some good things did happen. More girls went to schools. You can look up data and see the infant mortality rate plummet.
  We didn't go over there for humanitarian reasons, and our true goal wasn't noble -- but there was still good that came of it. Enough good for them to ask us why we've forgotten about them. And I don't blame them -- but I also can't blame us.
  
  You're right, but it seems like this post is asking for it again. Whatever framing it's given, it didn't work and was a massive waste, of lives and money.
- I agree, the hard truth is it's on them. The people of Afghanistan collectively lacked the will to fight for their freedom. It's a stark contrast with places like Ukraine.
- We built schools and got girls into the schools. The first thing the Taliban did was close all of those schools.
- Who's We, why We went there in the first place and on what grounds?
  
  We went there because the Taliban didn't want to kick Al Qaeda out and 9-11 had just happened.
- O fuck off. You invaded them and then left. 2.3 trillion went to pay your military and contractors.
  
  "You should've extended the war by a few more decades!"

When externals were (unsuccesfully) trying to change something in the country, it was a total bust. I read in these comments that intentions were not pure from America, and I can imagine that. I also saw interviews with US military personal after they came back from Afghanistan, who seemed to genuinely want to help, but had to deal with a lot of corruption, low education, internal theft and child abuse (Bachi Bazi). Now no one is helping, and even though I'd like for the local population to live free lives, I don't even know how one would start to help. The Taliban will just hide and guerilla it's way back after occupation has dissapated. It seems like a real life Kobayashi Maru situation. No winners, only losers here :(
- It reminds me, I read about veterans who went to volunteer and fight for Ukraine because they wanted to help, and they felt like they hadn't in Afghanistan.

What do they expect? Permanent US occupation? If they really expect that, then they're going to need to make themselves a US territory or deal with themselves.
- Did they expect the USA to invade in the first place?
  
  Yeah, that's America's whole thing

Not to be a dick but if they don't like it they could do something about it themselves. Hoping that "the world will do something" rarely has good results.
- Yeah haven't they been at war or occupied for like 200 years? The withdrawal was a clusterfuck but it was never not going to be one. Idk what the rest of the world can do at this point. I read China wants to tap into those sweet lithium mines. Let them give it a shot I guess?
  
  Honestly, I'd love to see them try. Mostly because it'd be hilarious for them to be inconvenienced, but still

The world spent trillions of dollars and thousands of lives to help you. It didn't take.
- Yep didn’t we remove their horrid government, hold elections, try to support a more liberal government through multiple decades in the longest war the US has ever engaged in?
  And wasn’t that a massive overreach of our role in the first place?
  I feel for these women but this headline can go get fucked.
- Yeah, those helpful drones.
  
  Oh, don't act like that's all the last 20 years was.
  We spent two decades trying to train up their army with direct hands on mentorship and equipment, they rolled over and surrendered immediately.
  You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make the people overthrow their religious fascist government.
  
  The United States Department of Defense lists 2,462 servicemembers as having died in Operation Enduring Freedom and Operation Freedom's Sentinel. Of these, 1,926 were due to hostile action and 536 non-hostile.
  United States military casualties in the War in Afghanistan - Wikipedia
  On behalf of all the veterans of this conflict, fuck you.
  
  Decent point. But then why send them back?

Gotta love all the 'muricans trying to defend their exceptionalism and blaming Afghanistan and its people for the country's woes.
USA never cared about Afghanistan or its people. In the 1980s, it, along with Saudi Arabia, Pakistan and United Kingdom, helped fund the muhajideen fighting against the Soviet Union (Soviet-Afghan war). As soon as the war was over and the soviets retreated, the funding dried up.
After 9/11, USA went into a bloodlust, invading Afghanistan because they (Taliban) wanted proof that Osama bin Laden was involved with the terrorist attack first. bin Laden fled to Pakistan, but the USA didn't invade them, nor threatened to. Instead, USA just kept their boots on foreign soil because, hey, free real state and cheap poppy, amirite?
Also, since at least 2010, it's been publicly known that Pakistan has been helping the Taliban in fighting for Afghanistan. Yet, there were no sanctions, no tough talks, no threats, nothing, against Pakistan.
- After 9/11, USA went into a bloodlust, invading Afghanistan because they (Taliban) wanted proof that Osama bin Laden was involved with the terrorist attack first. bin Laden fled to Pakistan, but the USA didn’t invade them, nor threatened to. Instead, USA just kept their boots on foreign soil because, hey, free real state and cheap poppy, amirite?
  Just to add to your point.
  From way before 9-11
  Before the Invasion
  After the invasion.
- What do you think should happen going forward? How should the US address this? How should your country, and the rest of the UN address this?
  It's very easy to look at the past and just lay blame. I can't and won't argue with you on any of that (except the Mujahideen but I've discussed that in a different comment). Looking forward however, I don't see any paths that aren't just a retread of what was already done. And I don't know if we could've done anything differently which would have a good chance of leading to a different outcome. I legitimately want to know what you think, because I'm at a loss.
  
  Considering that some tribes still remembered and resented the British from their colonial abuses, you can bet your ass Afghanis won't forgive the USA anytime soon. If any president actually had the balls and humility to admit the USA fucked up big time, committed an international crime and several war crimes, and was actually willing to work together with the current government, under certain conditions, like ensuring women regain some of their lost rights, to repair some of those wrongs, that would go a long way. It's not going to happen, and my guess is mainly because many other countries would start to pester the USA to admit wrongdoings against them, too.
  It’s very easy to look at the past and just lay blame
  The irony is that USA apparently didn't learn anything from invading Vietnam, or watching the soviets invade Afghanistan 20 years prior.
  As for what I think, apparently Pakistan and Iran will step in and work as "good neighbors". Women will still be treated like slaves and neither neighbor will bat an eye, which is horrible. If the Taliban is still being so heavily helped by the Pakistani government, then Afghanistan will just be their puppet. In that case, pressuring Pakistan to pressure the Taliban into being less radical would be more likely to yield results with lower resistance. Considering that the USA never hinted at strong arming Pakistan, despite having several bases on their territory AND knowing of their ties with Taliban, then that is unlikely to happen in the future. The "why" for that is what I'd love to know.
  It's also rather weird when you look at Iran-Pakistan relations, which seem to be very good, despite one being a USA bogeyman and the other being an ally.

Afghanistan is full of a bunch of small tribes. They all hate each other and refuse to work together. Just go Google "dancing boy parties Afghanistan" you will quickly lose any sympathy for the people and culture. The US had to turn a blind eye to pedophile parties, which are a time honored tradition, in order to keep the peace.
The forces the US trained and equipped were basically the dregs of society that would be in prison in most countries. They would steal and sell shit to the Taliban. Claiming to have driven many miles on patrol to syphon and sell the gas was common practice. They sold the guns and trucks. There is no helping this country. It's going to be a shit show until they get past their tribal hatred and work together.

Can't believe the victim blaming going on in this thread. What the fuck? You people can't understand that ordinary people didn't want to rise up and risk their lives? They weren't asking for help from citizens of other countries like them, they were asking for help from other militaries since their own failed them. Yet, the people are to blame? How is that a popular opinion? The complete lack of empathy from the privileged is alarming.
- It's kind of similar to Russia right now; in order for the country to change - and it NEEDS to change - ordinary people would need to take drastic action. The USA in Afghanistan kind of demonstrates just how incredibly hard it is for even an ultra-powerful external force to do that.
  Heck, look at formerly-Nazi Germany. It's now a stupendous place to live, but look at what needed to get it there. In addition to multiple countries toppling the regime, they needed Germans to be active about their beliefs in the future of their nation, to the point they were willing to literally dismantle a wall.
  I don't claim to be able to give them a guidebook, but I definitely think when the Taliban does fall, it would have to come at least from heavy, confrontational, violent rejection of them from the locals.
  
  In fairness, outside of three decades or so in the 20th century, Germany has been one of the nicest places in the world to live in for at least the past 200.
- Unfortunately, ordinary people did rise up and risk their lives, against the US and NATO. It wasn't just that their military failed them, this wasn't some battlefield loss, or a powerful regime keeping an iron hold on the populace, the military and the people just decided to side with the Taliban, it's what they voted for in the most primal and basic election that exists.
  That doesn't mean that I'm not sympathetic to the plight of a lot of people that are suffering, there are a lot of people in westernized cities that have lost their freedom and their way of life because of what the rest of their country chose, but that also doesn't mean that it's right to cause even more blood and death to override that choice, just because we identify with the oppressed more than the Taliban. That type of mentality is exactly what made the US and NATO so hated in the region, and frankly, I have no reason to think that if we did it again it wouldn't end with exactly the same result
  
  You say people, but what you mean is men.
- I think this is a situation where there just aren't good answers. I prefer to draw a distinction between the politicians and cowards who handed the keys to the Taliban, vs the women and men and everyday people who opposed the Taliban.
  It's unfair and gross to blame them. It's also unfair though for them to blame us. We spent a lot of time in Afghanistan. American blood watered the soil, but we saw beautiful flowers bloom. Women were uplifted. The infant mortality rate plummeted. People voted for their leaders.
  What more could we do, at this point? I'd like to think that if we had armed more of the uplifted people, they would've maintained their government and continued to fight the Taliban. I tell myself that partially though because if that isn't true, then there truly was nothing different we could've done or do now. We'd have to annex territory into a state, maybe.
  
  A full military occupation followed by several years of constructing a new government like what was done in Germany or Japan might have had a chance at working. Our efforts were always half-hearted. There were never enough boots on the ground to properly police the population and there was no political will to try.
- Other militaries DID go in and pushed out the Taliban and you know what happened? The people, especially in the rural areas, were indifferent at best and frequently hostile. They didn't ask for anyone to "help them", even if they politely accepted it but they still saw them as outsiders vs the Taliban who were at least from there. They also knew the US and others weren't going to be there forever and the day would eventually come when they'd leave and then what? The Taliban would be there to fill the void. The moral in the ANA was crap so they weren't going to stop them. So the people kept on the best terms with both sides best they could and tried not to piss off the Taliban so they wouldn't take revenge when they returned.
- Yeah I hate that and am surprised to see that on lemmy
  Reading those comments gives feelings of wtf
- So do you suggest they give up their sovereignty and become a territory of a neighbouring country?
  The Taliban is allied with China so it won’t be them, if it’s India then China and Pakistan will see it as justification. Then the next closest neighbour would be the US but the people aren’t willing. And if you throw out the Taliban it’s not going to solve anything because they will just forever war

Forget quickly? You want someone to invade again? What is the world supposed to do? They sanction, break diplomatic relations, issue travel advisories, the only thing left is another war. Nobody wants that.

Nobody forgot. Your friends and family accepted it.
Get out. It's the only chance at freedom you'll have for generations.
- Pretty sure its extremely difficult to get out of Afghanistan, especially if you're a woman. In fact I don't think you can unless you're accompanied by a man. I get what you're saying but "getting out" is immensely dangerous
  
  Yep, and yet it's literally the only solution besides literal revolution steeped in death.
  Sometimes there is literally no easy answer. It doesn't make the answer any less true.
  
  Maybe this is the best we can do at this point -- NGOs to negotiate safe passage for any Afghan to safely leave if they want to, and the Taliban do nothing to stop them. The UN as a whole can distribute refugees in a way that every country has equal burden.

Does anyone have stats on Afghanistan's opinions on America's occupation right before we left? I imagine most of them wanted America to leave...
Though I'm now curious what their TRUE opinion was of the Taliban, because I see people wanting Communism back in Russia, I imagine people wanted the Taliban back instead of the Americans.
I'm sure at least 50 percent of them are like "Fuck no" (women), but when that group isn't a huge part of the people guarding the country, I wonder if this was inevitable. Even if we somehow destroyed the entire Taliban, there would be another fundamental Islamic group who wanted to take over.
- I think they looked at the Taliban as a pragmatic choice and a familiar force. They also saw the US leaving as at least an end to years of war and a return to something resembling normalcy.

Fight back? I mean...
- When the US pulled out the Taliban didn't have to fight to take control. The population was ready and willing to put them back into power.
  This was the choice the country made. It's not our place to step into their internal politics at this point. The US did that for years and they decided very clearly they didn't want that.
  
  A small point of distinction, this is the choice their chickenshit politicians and grifters made. The entire problem is that it wasn't the choice made by Afghan women -- if it was their choice, I suspect they'd still be fighting the Taliban and Kabul would still be standing with the same government.

I know way too little about this to have an actual opinion about it. I read the article just as a way to learn more about what's going on with those people right now. At the very least their lives are ruined, and we're mostly just hearing from the refugees.
Ending quote: The man blames the former Afghan government under Ashraf Ghani and the international coalition, which operated in the country for 20 years, for “everything falling apart so quickly.” “We have lost everything, even our hope for the future. We’re living in a country of lies, a country that no longer exists,” he concludes.

why didn't you fight harder for your country

"Fix your own problems. We're sick and tired of being the world's police force"
-- America
(...along with the world's checkbook. And no matter what we do, everything gets blamed on us. We're taking our ball and going home)
- I'd just like the US to stop playing world cop and have a decade or two without some intervention somewhere.
  
  Yeah, that would be nice. But the same people who claim that they don't want to be the world's police force anymore also tend to miss the point of what that means.
  Sorry, but we aren't going to swoop in to some African country and save the people there. We aren't going to overthrow some dictator in Asia just because he is unpopular. Just because some leader is cruel to his own people, that doesn't mean we should take down his government. That means the rest of the world has to solve it's own issues and not come running to the US every time some other nation starts threatening them.

Despite the narratives, the world at large hasn't really ever come together for the sole purpose of liberating an oppressed people within a country. No

Sorry but uh… we’re kinda fuckin busy rn

I'm not surprised.
Hell I'm pretty sure people are forgetting Ukraine is at war. This is why I hated the "They're winning" "Russia is retreating" rhetoric. Because wars take a long time and a lot of people will die in them. People are cheering something they have no part in but by saying "Ukraine is winning" I think many of them also add "And now we can stop focusing on them".
Part of it is the media diverting attention or focusing on what they want people to focus on (watch how coverage of different shootings are covered. If it's a white guy with a death toll, it's covered far more than if it's a woman, a non-minority, or a low death toll. People will defend that by "It's focusing on the higher death toll" But doesn't focus on the coverage changes based on race, gender, or if it's a gang/drug related shooting.
Part of this is click bait but I think part of it too is a narrative that's formed. Which is why school shootings are covered more than random alleys and such. But the reason why isn't the problem, it's more how the media shapes the national narrative due to what they decide to focus on.
The other part is people have enough going on in their life that they can't think of every little thing going on in the world, but since the news is covering this, I guess we'll focus a bit on Afghanistan for a bit again.

Damn, a lot of "Fuck Afghanistan, hoo rah America is great" kinda vibes in here :-/ I left Reddit to get away from the constant USA Defaultsm nonsense...
Yes, let's ignore the most important issue - people are suffering and as decent humans we have a duty to them, when we can instead use it as an excuse to point out how much better Americans are at being a country, etc etc :-(
- My impression of reddit was the opposite. Lots of people who have never set foot outside of their town saying America was the worst place on earth.
  
  It seems reddit exists to spread controversy...
- Honestly fuck that? USA, it's intentions mixed as they were, at least tried to help - and that's a country that already had experience in influencing growth and change in other countries. I can't really see other options for them.
  Yeah, they are in a bad place but please let's not forget that they actually worked to be in that place. So screw that, my heart goes to them but they're lost case for now, until they are ready to fight for themselves.
- we have a duty to them
  So you mean reoccupy them right? Because that seems like the only option in order to force the local bad actors out. Or if you mean foreign aid, then you're directly funding the Taliban and all that money will be just embezzled and wasted by them.
  How are we supposed to help them out now?
  
  Maybe give them back the 4 billion dollars we seized from them when we pulled out.
- I left Reddit to get away from the constant USA Defaultsm nonsense...
  This is possibly the most delusional take in the entire thread. If you thought that reddit, where people take every opportunity to shit on America somehow has constant "USA Defaultism". You have to be a Stalin worshipping commie to even begin thinking that.
  
  Yeah I read that and was rather surprised, it felt like it was the opposite. And I wasn't in rah rah murica subs, this was in the large default ones.
- How can most people help and as a follow up how can we help them and not the Taliban

Lost causes are relegated to the history books, and remembered by ivory tower academics.

You can't drag people into the 21st century. We tried.
- That's an extremely fucked up way of looking at all the awful shit the usa has done in Afghanistan, wtf man

Yeah it's probably their brother's, fathers, and sons. The people they raised in their dipshit religion. Fuck all religious nut jobs, especially Christians. What's the world going to do about the brainwashed?
- Oh look, a redditor
  
  This is lemmy dipshit. You've never used reddit? Wtf is your point?

Soviet (mission accomplished) : 3 years against US + China and muslim world backing after USSR dissolved.... US (disorganised retreat) : 3 days with no backer...
Modern afganistant still rely on soviet infrastructure...

I always had the notion it was swept out of focus because the white people started fighting not even a year later.

Jfc, the comments here are disgusting.
As if this is the first time an imperial superpower has intervened so heavily in a country and then backed the fuck up once there was no profit left to be made and left the locals to go fuck themselves.
And yet fuckers whose only knowledge of the situation over there comes from their biased racist google search abilities, and who not only would, without a shadow of a doubt, run and hide and piss themsleves if they ever encountered any situation a tenth as threatening as Afghan people have had to put up with, but probably end up joining the oppressive force because that's what people with tiny fragile egos tend to do - seek ways to abuse others, get to sit here and judge those poor people who are nothing but pawns in a war for profit for "not helping themselves"?!
The fucking audacity of you fuckers is beyond belief.
I'd say go read some fucking history and educate yourselves about the hundreds of examples of how imperial and colonial powers have ravaged and then abandoned people all across the globe, but I honestly don't think it'd help people with their heads so far up their own asses that they actually think their ignorant selves are somehow qualified to pass judgment on these people's lives.
- Yeah for real. Hilarious to see a bunch of neckbeards talking tough about how a lady in Afghanistan should shut up and fight a civil war against the Taliban, who the US couldn't beat even after 20 years. How dare she point out that the US utterly failed her country after invading it.
  Incredibly pathetic
- Threads like this just remind that the fediverse existed for over a year before reddit shit the bed, and was populated mostly be far right extremists who had been IP banned from Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, and pretty much every other social media.
  The idea of the fediverse is great, but the fact is you can never really permanently ban anyone from it.
  So in a lot of ways it's also the gutter the worst get washed into. And they're usually the most active
  
  If you really think the fediverse was ever "populated mostly by far-right extremists" you have zero clue what you're talking about and zero credibility.
  Less than a year ago Lemmy was mostly communist meme threads and a few years before that Mastodon was just a FOSS community hangout.
- I have to admit seeing the comments in here made me realise I need to load kbin on desktop so I can use its function where we make notes on users.
  That or figure out how to run the kbin enhancement suite.
  
  I just block anyone who says anything remotely Right-wing.
  No time for racists, capitalists, and fascists.
- They're mostly a bunch of neo-colonists that believe in western exceptionalism and won't spend any time learning about the country the west occupied for over 20 years, let alone the complicated dynamics of the country.
  I mean legit half the comments are variants of "We need to civilize the savages".
  Reminds me of all the crocodile tears against leaving Afghanistan in the first place "Think of the women!" they cried, well what happened when the country was dealing with a famine (which of course impacted millions of Afghani women) and the US stole half of Afghani assets at a time they desperately needed it? crickets.
  Propaganda is a hell of a drug.

That's because people only care that other people think they care. Your average American or European could give two shits what happens to women in their own countries let alone Afghanistan.

This is what Afghans want in their country, they had every opportunity to stand up to the Taliban and they gave up almost without a fight.

Welcome to capitalism.
- What on earth does this have to do with capitalism?
  
  Fox news much?
- I mean capitalism surely isn't helping good journalism but I fail to see how this is the fault of capitalism. News will always cover new things - the fact that the Taliban took over two years ago is nothing new anymore. I would also like coverage of situations like that but I also think that news would just get too overwhelming. It would take hours to give every small update for each topic like that, and people are already sick of bad news anyways.
  
  "News will always cover new things"
  If they can make a profit for stockholders.

Lefties always forget the evil they continuously do.
- Like what?

Ukrainians, you are up next! Stop following that clown and sue for peace. To my western media brainwashed fellow brethren: do some research, Putin has been offering peace talks since 3 days after the beginning of the war. He's being blown away by the Z clown, like a spoiled kid of a rich dad (USA!). Stop the suffering of slavic people and end the war now by starting peace talks.
Edit: let me make it easier for your research. Here you go: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace_negotiations_in_the_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine
- Why doesn't he just stop attacking then?
  
  Same reason spez and musk doubled down on their stupidity: an ego the size of jupiter

Thanks, Sleepy Joe.
- ...are you serious? Trump pulled them out
  
  No. Trump promised to pull out the troops if the Taliban committed to combating terrorism. Sleepy Joe's administration was the one who decided to finally pull out.

20+ years, billions of dollars, and years of the West removed about the US swinging it's dick around.
5 years later: Help us Afghanistan is a shit hole and Europe probably couldn't defend itself against Russia much less China.
- Russia failed to defeat Ukraine after 2 years of fighting and you think they would be able to amount to anything against the whole of Europe? Lol.
  
  Troll account.
  
  Do you believe Ukraine would be in the position or is without US intervention? Despite internal political rhetoric that the EU needs to be more independent from the US?
  The US has donated nearly 100b in aid, 45b of that in weapons. The closest two EU countries are UK and DE topping out at ...checks notes.... 12b or so.
  If the US said fuck you guys, we aren't sending you weapons, we are done ensuring the West has the ability to be the effective world police , Eastern Europe would look far smaller.

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