16h ago

If you learn a language from birth, then later on learn another language, then lose proficiency in the first language. Which one is your: Native Language? "First" Language?

So I was thinking about the topic of languages again and I started wondering again...

So I learned Cantonese as a kid, then learned Mandarin and the Chinese Writing system when I started school, in China. Then immigrated to the US, started learning English when I was still under age 10, which is according to wikipedia, still within the "critical period" of learning a language

There is much debate over the timing of the critical period with respect to second-language acquisition (SLA), with estimates ranging between 2 and 13 years of age.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_period_hypothesis

So then, I um... kinda forgot how to speak Mandarin, and most of Chinese written characters. Still kinda speak Cantonese because its for home. But barely know any words, so I can't even express complex ideas like philosophy, science, politics. I never really spoke to anyone in Mandadin, and for Cantonese, its only at home.

But I never actually learned Cantonese or Mandarin beyond the basics. And for Mandarin the proficiency is even worse than Cantonese, I'll have to think the words in Cantonese then convert it to Mandarin (its mostly the same written characters, but different pronunciation).

My English is so proficient, its really the only language I can effectively communicate in. And my classmates have told me they don't notice any "accents" when I talk.

So which is my Native Language? "First" Language?

I mean... it's kinda weird to call a language "native" if I could barely speak it.

17 comments

I think it’s semantics, the first language you learned to speak, doesn’t have to be your primary language. Generally people assume your primary is also your first learned language. For myself, I learned multiple languages from birth, it’s hard to say which is my first. My primary, though is English, unless I am with either one of my parents families, then after a few days, as the other poster asked, I dream in said language. Sometimes I dream multilingual.
Tl;dr it’s the difference between the first language you learned and the language you use primarily. Most people assume it’s the same.
- This! We had a very cool unit in Linguistics on this back in college, it seems the academic consensus is that the first language you learn - i.e, your native language, can stop being the primary language that you use and hence, in time, it can be forgotten.
  Our professor gave us an interesting example as to why the term "native" language is no longer as relevant: her daughter, whose primary language was Romanian, had moved to Germany and met her husband there, whose primary language was German. They later lived in the US for a while, both using English as their primary language for close to a decade and then moving to Japan, where they have had their son. In essence, the kid doesn't really have a "native" language - at home, they speak English, when they visit Europe they speak Romanian or German, and everywhere else in his life he uses Japanese - which is also his primary language, as that is the one he uses most often and is most proficient in.

There are a few people in the world who have no native language anymore because they forgot the language they were born using. Some of them are terrible in any language and so cannot be said to have a first language.
If someone is fluent in some second language is it fair to call them a native speaker - this is a philosophical question with no objective correct answer. Some would say yes, some will say no.
I have personally switched my answer over time - I started out with native is a strict definition and so you can't be native if you were not born to it. These days the anti-immigrants are using that same argument and I'm in favor of open immigration, because native speaker is currently an issue I'm switching my position because previously it was a matter of naming that didn't affect anything else, while now it is a political issue.

In my eyes your native language is the language that you learned from birth because it's the one that you started. It doesn't have to be the one that you're the most proficient but, it usually is. The definition is
the language or dialect first learned by an individual or first used by the Parent/Guardian with a child
Your primary language is the language you use the most which in your case sounds like it's English

I'd personally go with the meaning of the word native. Meaning natural to you; from the environment you were born into, the culture you were born into, the language your parents and family speak. So probably Cantonese. But that doesn't mean it has to be your primary language or even something you are good at now that you have moved into a different culture and language.

You are bilangual. I have one cousin who was born in France to Portuguese parents, his mother and mine are sisters, so I started by speaking Portuguese and then when he started school in 1st grade of course he started to speak more French, and since he never left France he kept French as his native language, he speaks Portuguese fluently but with heavy French accent

My aunt is in your situation. French from birth, sprinkled with English, but English-only after age 7. She can still kind of speak French if she thinks really hard and uses English for half the words, but it's mostly gone. She also speaks Spanish but learned as an adult.
Her native language and her first language are both French, but her primary language is English and her secondary language is Spanish. If you asked, she would probably say that her native language is English because she learned some as a child and barely uses French for anything.

Do you still have native-level pronunciation and grammar skills in Cantonese? Forgetting words is one thing, that happens, and words can be relearned. I've lived abroad for 5 years now in my 20s, and even I've lost some vocabulary in my native language.
If you no longer know the grammar or the pronunciation well, then it's a more legitimate question if it is your native language anymore.
Either way, you are some sort of bilingual. In fact, some people grow up like that where I come from: with two native languages, one of which is oftentimes stronger / more eloquent due to education, social life, etc.

It's not the "native" defines how or when you learned to speak a language. It's that how and when you learned a language that makes it "native".
As a bonus, since this is English, "native language" also changes definition based on context. If you are filling out a form and they are asking demographical information, your native language is Cantonese. If you are filling out a resume and want to describe how well you speak English, then you can read/write English at the native level.
If you are in a casual conversation and someone asks what your native language is, then your answer will likely include a whole or part of the above story, to avoid confusion and to encourage more discussion. Essentially, both Cantonese and English fit your "native language" definition in that context.

In which language do you dream?
- Um...
  Not sure
  I dream in some monster-land because most of them are nightmares.
  Monster language? 🤷‍♂️
  
  do you think in a specific language?
- The sub-conscious processes of our brain tend to not use any language. Dreams and thoughts may be translated into some regular language for some people but not everyone and when it does the language picked might have more to do with the content of what is being shown than the person's proficiency in the language.

I think Thore words are not adequate to describe your or my situation.
My main language is English right now because that is what I mostly use. It's my 4th language. I was 11 when I emigrated for the first time and between then and now I had two other main languages.

The solution is to learn a new language. Then, whatever accent you have in that new language, that is your first language. I've noticed this with Canadians a few times. They'd speak English like you'd never think it was anything but their first language, but when they spoke German, they had a French accent.
- This may have more to do with the instructor of your second language, because pronunciation is taught. If your German teacher is French (or French Canadian) or learned German from someone who otherwise accented it in such a way, then that's how you're most likely to accent it. Only about one in five Canadians learn French as their first language, so outside of Quebec, they're really not secret French speakers masquerading as English speakers.
  With French as Canada's second official language, though, it would not be surprising if the majority of Canada's foreign language teachers spoke French either first or second (but I say this without research or evidence, so it's just an irresponsible hypothesis.)
- A friend learned English from an Italian teacher, she had an Italian accent when speaking English. She doesn't speak a single word of Italian or ever studied Italian. Pronunciation has nothing magical to it, and accents are very flexible. I can speak in almost any accent I want (thanks to linguistic training), but I tend to naturally and unconsciously gravitate towards the accent of the person I'm talking with. It makes others uncomfortable sometimes (those who have learned many languages and thus notice it), but most people don't notice and think they actually like me because I talk like them. On my own, the most natural would be Austin, Texas English pronunciation. But it's because of my heavy consumption of YouTube and Twitch content from that area during my teenage years, I've never been in the US. In Spanish I have like three or four different accents depending on the topic and context, code-switching is very common.
  It's the kind of thing that goes unnoticed when you don't learn any new language or only speak a single second language. If you never interact with anyone who speak differently than you, then you don't notice that the way you speak is not universal and you probably have a “heavy accent” in front of others who speak your same language.

17 comments