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Is it a PTB move to ban a user if their only activity in a community is downvoting posts?

Is it a PTB move (!yepowertrippinbastards@lemmy.dbzer0.com) to ban a user if their only activity in a community is downvoting posts?

The behaviour baffles me a bit. If they dislike the majority of the posts in a community, why are they subscribed? Or if they are browsing by /all, why have they not blocked the community? Are they under the mistaken impression that Lemmy has an algorithm which uses downvotes as an indicator for "show me less of this"?

Has anyone else encountered a "serial downvoter" in any of their communities?

86 comments
  • I feel this could go several ways.

    Troll who just wants to make people feel bad. Ban them.

    Person who legitimately thinks content is low-quality, but likes the topic in general (perhaps no other Lemmy community exists for it?) and wants to see better posts. Leave it alone.

    Drive-by voter checking in from Local or All (sorting by New makes even small communities visible, so "we're not big" isn't immune), maybe they legit think it's low effort, or hostile and toxic. Or they just see Thing They Don't Like and downvote instead of using the system properly—not quite the same as a troll purposely, maliciously ruining things but in my opinion not a great practice at all, but also not quite a bannable offense, unless they actively subscribe to a community full of things they do not like just to shit on it. And I am guessing right now intent is pretty hard to prove.

    Because I can think of reasonable reasons to do this I would err on the side of not punishing a potential innocent. I'd wait at least until you see several extremely high-quality posts that are also inoffensive get downvoted. But I also get that downvoting everything in a community can be destructive. A big community can just shake it off, the upvotes will eventually outweigh the few downvotes. A small one will look like it has crap content if there is ~3 up/3 down to every post.

    Also, check patterns outside your community too. Explicit stated intent to ruin community in a comment? Goodbye. Upvotes things outside the community? More chance to be a normal user who's probably got an innocent reason to downvote.

  • My initial reaction when I read your posts was 100% support for banning them. They'd be better off blocking the community so it never shows up in their feed. But in the hours since, a counter argument occurred to me that I'd like to present.

    Lemmy is, as many have said, still a relatively young and small platform. The range of content on it is limited not just by what subjects have communities, but what the individuals posting in those communities happen to be interested enough in to share.

    A user might not want to block a community because they do like the subject of that community and want to read about it. But maybe only one user is actively posting content, and the subset of interest in the subject for user A just doesn't match the subset of user B. Naturally, they end up downvoting all the content at present. Where in a hypothetical that there were hundreds of active users posting in that community, the user would only downvoted a small fraction.

    As a hypothetical, imagine I create a !classicalmusic community. I'm a big fan of classical music, especially Beethoven and the Romantics. I post a heap of discussion about Romantic theory, recordings of Beethoven Symphonies, Rachmaninoff Sonatas, etc. Because it's a small community, I'm the only one posting.

    Then you come along, a huge Bach fan. You don't mind some Classical era stuff like Mozart and Haydn, but you can't stand the Romantic era. You downvote everything I post.

    In my opinion, unless you want to get even more into the weeds and enforce the idea of "downvotes are only for off-topic and spam content, not for dislike" (which, I agree in theory is how the best users treat it, but let's be honest…it doesn't happen in practice), I don't think I should ban you.

    Maybe I could send off a DM asking you to explain your downvotes, and I would ban you if you came back and said "I don't want to see classical music in my feed" (along with a recommendation that you use the block feature). And I'd try to encourage you to participate more in submitting the stuff you do want to see. But an attempt to figure things out some other way would be better than a ban, in that case.

  • It's situational.

    By itself, down voting but not otherwise interacting is fine. Hell, one of the uses of votes is to let the sorting work, so down votes are a valid form of interaction.

    But, some people abuse that. So, if the pattern of their voting shows that they're targeting a single user, or trying to manipulate the ranking to shift sorting artificially, or points to some other bad actorship, mod intercession would be a valid choice.

    However, a ban would not be an acceptable first intervention. That would be overreach, going beyond the scale of the issue. Contacting the user first would be the appropriate step. Remember, lemmy is still small enough that we can at least try to treat each other like people instead of just words on a screen.


    Let me use a personal example to illustrate why contact first is the better option.

    There is a community, which I won't specify to avoid causing them grief, that is dietary based. Because of my background, I have a higher than usual grasp of the general subject, and have higher personal standards for health claims surrounding fad diets.

    As such, when I would scroll past posts on that community that were factually incorrect, or didn't give supporting evidence outsider of a YouTube link, I would down vote it without any further action or interaction. Early on, the only posts were being made by the mod of the community, and they noticed that not only was I down voting almost everything on the C/, but that was all I was doing.

    On the surface, that can look sketchy, right? Some rando just down voting with no observable pattern.

    So, they contacted me. Asked what I was doing and why. I explained pretty much what I said here, and the conversation was pleasant. That started adding in text that gave more info than just linking to a video, which means that people scrolling by weren't just hit by what amounts to ads for a fad diet, which is a major problem that isn't really discussed much, but can have massive effects on people's health.

    With the extra effort in place, the posts ceased to have that same quasi-subliminal effect where people just absorb it passively due to it being background noise. So, I no longer needed to down vote those posts, and ceased doing so; reserving down votes for posts that either weren't on topic for the C/, or contained things that amount to disinformation.

    That interaction gave me a ton of respect for that mod, even though I still disagree with what their community "advertises" based on my knowledge out nutritional best practices. It also made me willing to check their linked videos on occasion to see if maybe my knowledge and current best practices should change to incorporate that diet as practical and healthy. So far, all I've seen is that it's less harmful than I thought, but that's going too far off topic.


    Looping back to your specific quandry, I think that it's always worth trying to communicate. Lemmy really is a unique social experiment, and the best part about it is the people. As long as we all try to handle things person-first, we have a high chance at things staying more like a community than a disconnected bunch of user names that might as well be bots for all we care.

    Now, being real, humans are assholes. So chances are that your attempt at communication will fail, and may fail with them being a giant, gaping, stinking asshole. But I think it's still best to make the attempt before moving on to other options.

    If they're an asshole, then you ban them on grounds of community interference. If they aren't, then maybe something good comes out of it.

    Bans like that are a valid and useful tool. Anyone saying otherwise doesn't understand what it takes to keep a forum running smoothly. But it has to be a scalpel, not an axe. It's way too easy to slip into being a power tripping bastard that ruins the very community you're trying to keep healthy. If you find yourself reaching for that ban hammer before trying other things, it's time to get some backup. Find someone to help take the load off, to spread the stresses of having to police a community and yourself.

    • Well worded.

      Just to add to your example (which is nice by the way, quite good to see such interactions happening), I've seen the opposite, when you identify an account with literally 0 comments, not even just on the community, but on the whole platform, and who systematically downvotes everything, the will to reach out to them might be low.

      Because, let's be honest, as you said, the place is small, and if I were to find you downvoting every post on one of my communities, I would reach out to you. Even if it's someone with just 1 comment a few months ago on a completely unrelated community. But if it's an account as I described above, I'm not sure if I would hold a grudge against someone banning them.

      • Oh, yeah no way would I be mad if someone felt the need to just ban and be done. I've been on the receiving end of zero communication bans a few times tbh, and hold no grudges about it. Sometimes a mod just has to handle business and move on, leaving it on us users to put in the effort to appeal. That's a valid choice imo.

  • PTB. This thread is insane to me. If one person is downvoting posts, so fucking what? Just because they only downvote means their opinion is less valid? Maybe the content just sucks. If this is banworthy, then I might just be done with Lemmy already bc this is some petty bullshit.

    • Maybe the content just sucks.

      If the content on that community sucks, why doesn't that person block the community?

      I don't like politics, especially US politics. There is too much of that content on the platform, and it drowns all the other type of content.

      I blocked all those communities and moved on. I don't downvote all posts on those communities because "it just sucks".

    • If someone comes across an active well moderated community filled with on-topic content of an objectively high quality where everyone seems to be having fun, and that someone downvotes everything in that community every day, how is that beneficial? Why don't they post content they like? If they hate everything, why don't they block the community? Why are they spending time and effort to downvote so much stuff every day when it would be easier, and seemingly better for their mental health, to either block and move on, or contribute the flavor of content they want to see?

      No one is getting banned for downvoting content here and there, but if they're putting effort in ensuring everything in a community is downvoted, they'd just be spreading illwill for no good reason :(

      A good mod will help their community grow and flourish and have a good vibe. A mass downvoter who contributes nothing else is harmful to those things, and it makes sense a mod would want to defend their community against that.

      Edit: kind've ironic that you simply downvoted both me and Blaze 😅

  • Ask your community members, maybe?

    I lean towards "go for it! block away" but I come from a different internet culture than reddit so could never mod anywhere similar. You might get better advice from someone who's spent more time in these spaces.

    To me, It seems like chronic downvotes from nonmembers could mess up your comm's discovery. And is mildly annoying. Not terrible, but I don't think they need to be evil to get a community block. If you do it too much, your community might stagnate and people might start a new one. Oh well! Good luck to the new guys, imo. You might end up on PTB and get harassed. Always a risk as a mod, unfortunately.

    Put "frequent exclusive downvotes from non-members gets a block to increase likelihood of community discovery by people interested in this content" on your profile. I mean, if you talk with your community members and they agree it's an issue.

  • It’s not possible to see unless you’re an admin or use some ActivityPub service that federates with Lemmy but doesn’t hide this information from the end user.

    That is to say, I would if I could, if there was a malicious pattern. I didn’t understand the outrage that Reddit wanted to do that too (although their ruleset and ways of enforcement are not my cup of tea).

    In the meantime, lead by example and refrain from downvoting unless for rule breaking content or offtopic so that toxicity doesn’t increase.

  • If it's everything (in a community/profile) maybe, particularly if they don't have any contributions elsewhere. Or if it's actually something heartfelt/personal I can see being more touchy about it, less so with bot-like aggregation or reposting old content etc.

    Because otherwise, it's not going to be obvious where the line is when you add in time and % of content. If you're using a bot/script to detect voting, you're likely going to ban users just for casual browsing (even if they could explain their votes). Especially as an instance ban purges a user's account (to users of that instance) as if they're on the same level as an SEO spammer. Does a voting disagreement mean the rest of their account is invalid?

    I don't know if it's fedi incompatibility or just 0-transparency moderation, but dubvee might be doing this but it's unclear as they seem to be just handing out silent bans (no ban reason stated).

  • If their only contribution is downvotes, then it's not really a PTB IMO and should be done.

86 comments