6mo ago

Do we need religion again?

I’m in my mid 20s, and an atheist. I remember back in 2014, when I was an edgy little shit, I thought once people lost religion, as per the trend, people would be nicer to each other and science would rule the day. Probably a naive thought.

Yet, it feels like nothing is sacred anymore. Everywhere you look it’s just people trying to get their slice of the pie, ethics be damned. Everything feels like it’s going badly. I’ve just graduated and the job market is full of time wasting rituals. It just feels like people have lost touch with decency and community. No one has any pride in what they do.

Correlation != causation of course, and so the decline in religion may not be the cause. Still I wonder if for a certain segment of the population, those that seem to thrive and filter to the top of our wonderful society, the fear of damnation was check on their base impulses.

Or if perhaps this is a part of the process, perhaps the reasonable people have all left the churches leaving an ever growing concentration of barbarous individuals holding the reins of that decrepit institution.

Or it’s just the lack of community that religion once forced upon us, to see and be civil, if not caring for those in our immediate geographic community that hold differing opinions from us. A moderating influence if you will.

50 comments

I think we need community again; I don't think that means religion necessarily. Some of the most shameless, godless people in America are evangelical christians
- Because some kids need to think Santa is real to not be little shits...
  Not everyone needs that, but when religious people say the only thing stopping everyone from being a piece of shit is the threat of a bad afterlife, we should understand it's at least true for them personally.
  When all the rational people stopped going, all that was left was those people and it didn't take long for them to decide if someone wasn't "of the flock" Sky Daddy ain't going to get mad at them for being shits to the non believers.
  So community ain't enough
  They need to be manipulated into not being pieces of shit.

Not sure what country you're in, but have you seen the United States lately? The majority of the assholes here making life worse for all of us are doing so in the name of their god.
- I am from the United States. I don’t really know anymore. I don’t understand how both parties can be so terrible, but they are. I cannot abide my own contradiction in that I believe in democracy, I believe in the ideals espoused by my country: life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, yet I no longer believe in the people, or the institutions.
  
  I don’t understand how both parties can be so terrible
  You might enjoy the book https://theinvisibledoctrine.com/ which thoroughly explains the rise of neoliberal ideology which is responsible for the state of our institutions.

Did you notice all the harm Trump has caused in his first 24h because evangelical christo-fascists love and vote for him?
No. Religion is toxic.
- My interest you in the gospel of solar punk? Praise the sun!
  Religion is a tool. We just need to fix the message.
  
  Unless you're George Carlin worshipping Joe Pesci, religion sucks for society.

No, fuck religion. Religion is the source of so many of our modern problems. People need more practice at rational thinking and religion often discourages that.
I'm fine with having better community but it's like... a really simple problem. Look at Spain, everyone spends their free time in common spaces where they develop relationships with their communities are stronger for it.
What we fucking need is less cars and more parks and plazas - we don't need a church meddling in our shit.

It should never be "Do we need religion?", it should be "Do I need religion?". Some people might need it, but it doesn't need to be pressed upon others.
- Also religion or no religion, assholes will be assholes. Even if all religion disappeared from the world like it was never there, number of assholes in the world won't change.
  Assholes don't need an excuse to be one.
  
  That's also very true, unfortunately.

You're right that people are more selfish lately. That's deliberate - the elites are backing us all into a corner using stress and rage so that we'll fight each other instead of fighting them.
- Who are the elites? It’s a term thrown around, yet do we mean the billionaires? Are they working together? What is their goal in the long term? Without answering these questions, I find it hard to differentiate between meaningful political discussion and conspiracy theory. The trump people blame the “elites” as well, which we can presume are in some way different from the ones you’re talking about.
  
  The elites are the ones who don't feel anxious when the economy gets worse

Fuck No!
People. Family, friends, neighbors. Connect with real people. Not some con that's fooled countless people into giving away their $$ for fake promises and false "gods".

I'd say it's about time for the Age of Enlightenment to begin. For us to do liberty, progress, tolerance, use science and technology to our advantage. Invest in education. Maybe overturn the monarchs and billionaires.

You alraedy say it yourself in as many words, but we need more community. Where I am from, our country was 'columnized' up until the 1970s. You had a catholic 'column', a protestant 'column' and a socialist 'column', each with their own clubs. So you had a catholic football club, a protestant football club and a more public football club simultaneously. The same went for schools, pubs, etc.
For all the good and bad that gave us, people were shoehorned into their own communities (note my explicit use of 'shoehorned').
About 50 years ago, our society got 'decolumnized' and people got more individualistic. Add to it the rampant neoliberalism of the latest decades and well here we are: people do not know how to find each other anymore. I notice that many yourger people have similar questions like yours.
Do we need religion as in something to believe in or to have faith in? Possibly? However, I do not know what to believe in to be honest. Progress? Not going to live to see that anymore. It will get very ugly very soon. Maybe my kids will see things get better / more enligtened/ etc, but only after getting screwed over for a few decades I fear.
I do think that religion is not the answer. Men running around in dresses trying to force the ideas of mistranslated books written by goat herders several thousands of years ago are not to be taken seriously.

while community is desperately needed, religion is a con to control humans. the idea of the divine is utterly absurd and has no place in the modern world.

People didn't listen to their commandments when the majority of people believed in them, it just gave them a reason to hate those that were different from them.
Overall, I've found people who aren't religious to be more open minded, and far more accepting of people different to them.
The next step should be replacing fear of damnation with fear of the guillotine.

religion = smarmy cruel assholes

religion was never the issue. the issue is people being stupid and lacking morals, which they will do and justify regardless of the situation.

Look man all I'm saying is I've met a lot of women that were sexually abused in their church and it was swept under the rug to not cause a scene. I don't know what the solution is, but more religion definitely ain't it
- Yeah that’s not good. Maybe things weren’t better then it just appeared so because it was less visible.

- Are you saying that people have always been like this or?

In my experience religious people have not been the nicest. Very religious people of certain religions can be but some other religions make them nastier and the casually religious tend to have a morality of convenience.

Depends on the type of religion. One that preaches peace and tolerance and service and is against greed could be beneficial.
But the type of Christian fascists that elected Trump are not beneficial to society. They're the ones that either want you kiss dear leader's ass or die.

I'm a Preacher's kid, now an atheist. But I have been wondering the same thing. It's interesting I am not alone in that. In the last week I have seen the subject come up twice, once in this post and once at The Free Press.

Religion is useful for one thing and one thing only - as a barrier to depression. Having a predefined higher purpose neutralizes the existential dread, it helps you function in the face of a meaningless life.
Unfortunately it's all false. Once you understand the the falsehood it doesn't help any more. Which is why so many religious people cling to their religion. Giving up on whatever belief kept them alive equals suicide, and they want to keep on living.

I'd use Nietzsche's quote, "God is dead" to explain why we don't need religion and how Nietzsche used it to explain why we need to look for other sources of morality and ethics, but I'm too lazy to type rn.

It's a good question. Obviously the answer is "no" in the narrow sense. Most genuine atheists are not going to spontaneously start believing supernatural dogma just because it's good for them.
the fear of damnation was check on their base impulses.
This is a double-edged sword. If some people are not doing bad things simply for fear of cosmic comeback, then they might also do bad things for other irrational reasons. Think suicide bombers. It's the Voltaire quote: "Those who can persuade us to believe absurdities can make us commit atrocities."
About damnation specifically, personally I'm with Dawkins on that one: this kind of belief can only ever begin in childhood, and to frighten children with threats of hellfire and damnation is a form of child abuse. I'm certainly pleased nobody ever did that to me.
Or it’s just the lack of community that religion once forced upon us, to see and be civil, if not caring for those in our immediate geographic community that hold differing opinions from us.
Yep I think it's this. Religion is above all a forum for community. What we're missing is community.

People have never needed religion, it is just a tool for the people in power to prevent uprisings

Maybe a different form of religion. Not based on a guy with a long white beard but a force that created and keeps order in the universe.
- Or just humanity in its entirety.

religion is a bandaid for vicious wounds

I'm not going to go into too much detail, as I don't really have the time for an in depth explanation. But suffice it to say from a sociological perspective, organized religion formed along with more complex societies because complex societies need more rules to manage a higher population that came about because of agriculture and the rise of city states.
it's not a coincidence that hunter-gatherers worshipped fertility goddesses and totemic gods, and that actual "organized" pantheons came into being alongside the concept of "nations".
Organized religion was a tool that was invented to exert control and prevent chaos when societies were in their infancy and still figuring out how to live together and share resources. (ie. who are we and who are "others". Who gets to share our wealth and who doesn't, etc... etc...)
We don't need it anymore, and yet it sticks around causing all kinds of trouble.

People need a purpose in life. The church gave people purpose. The bold, the brave, and the great thinkers outgrew the purpose imposed upon them by religion and forged their own path. The masses sought to follow them in the name of freedom and liberty of the mind.
Unfortunately the masses are dumb bumbling buffoons incapable of original though looking for a shepherd to guide them right into the wolf's moor.
We used to have a couple paths of religious doctrines (where each groups members share a collective ideal) all fighting eachother. We now have a million paths of "pseudo-religious" doctrines all fighting each other. For instance the american left and right resemble a religion more than they resemble a group of political ideals.
Just remember the average person is an idiot and half of all people are dumber than that.

You will really enjoy reading Max Weber’s the Protestant ethic. I think that’s the title. It’s about how Protestant values on work worked really well with the new capitalism and how the values were maintained but god was removed. Highly recommend.
There are plenty of good reads on the sacred. I personally find it odd that you as an atheist have an idea of the sacred. Could you define it?
For community I definitely feel nothing beats religious communities. But it’s not a religion to religion basis but community.
- I will take a look it sounds like an interesting read!
  In looking at the definition of sacred I can agree with your confusion, as it seems rather tied in with religion. However, I’ll take the last definition from Webster and say that I mean something that is unassailable, highly valued and important.
  While I may not believe in a god, we humans have a penchant for stories, stories passed down through generations which convey some useful truths. Perhaps in a very analytical view we can say that ideals such as: fairness, decency, responsibility, and fidelity are expressions of an evolutionarily advantageous strategy of community building.
  Yet, while this may be the underlaying truth, on the day to day it is the feelings of righteous giddiness I get when I read of an ideal that I know to be good and just. While acknowledging the impact of my default wiring and upbringing, I believe we all can choose our moral framework, and live by it.
  
  Here are some brief thoughts on this :)
  Thanks for defining and explaining. Based on your last paragraph you seem to have an interest in traditions/religions/or philosophies of life. I recently TA-ed for an undergraduate course which discussed what it means to have a good life. The course went through various religious and philosophical traditions pushing students to question what they value.
  It seems like your interest in these values for your self as well as hope to see change in the world.
  I would personally recommend you read through traditions and see what is interesting or affects your personal values :)
  Some content you may enjoy include:
  scholar of religion https://m.youtube.com/@ReligionForBreakfast
  unknown credentials but interesting guy https://m.youtube.com/@LetsTalkReligion
  podcast on philosophy I enjoyed in undergrad https://www.philosophizethis.org/
  If it adds anything, I personally went from culturally Christian, to radically Christian and maybe somewhat conservative, to being open to eastern religions in undergrad and becoming Buddhist.
  That stage of radically challenging my Christianity really made me a better person. It made me more able to challenge my beliefs and see values as important not something to be enforced.
  Finally, I want to comment on reading various traditions though as you appear to be more interested in values and the separate you may not find this important. I personally find it harmful to just randomly mix traditions. There certainly are living examples of common and uncommon traditions that frequently mix but I firmly believe the modern day hippie who randomly mixes values and cosmologies creates a weaker system for themselves then if they stuck to the one most applicable. That said, in China it was and is rare for common practitioners to see going to the Buddhist temple one day then the Dalits shrine the other an issue.

Complicated to answer properly but I think that on the whole religion offers a good package. There's so much variety though and of course not everyone who identifies as religious is sincere; all institutions are attractive for those looking to exploit their influence, whether it's a religion, government, business etc. I'm interested in the social, moral, philosophical and spiritual aspects of religion but I'm also a bit allergic to institutions and am not humble enough to fit into the sorts of hierarchies that most religions seem to insist on.

People have always been out for themselves, it's not the fault of religion and religion is not the solution. Religion can give an outlet to those looking for structure and community in their lives, this can both be used for good and exploited in equal measure. The reason it feels more common that people are out for themselves is 3-fold: the internet has caused a weird bubble culture where you feel the need to make a name for yourself within the social media you are consuming especially with a growing population where it's harder than ever to feel like you even matter, a growing divide in economic class where the people at the bottom feel the need to pull themselves up any means necessary, and an increased amount of rich people being given a platform to preach their success/luck to anyone they want as an additional status symbol whether or not it's moral or even true

Flaws in human nature will always be a problem and you will find them no matter what religion and/or political systems any society adopts. It's as simple as that.

It is a problem with scrolling (social) media. I've proved that one to myself, yet still struggle to disconnect more.
- How did you prove it to yourself? I think this might be the case, but curious if I might replicate your experiment.
  
  Just take a week or two off and disconnect. See how your motivations and productivity change. Compare what you were doing before social media and now and be honest about who you are and who you were.

Is faith your last resort?
- What is faith son of man?

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