Pretty interesting when you really think about it.
Pretty interesting when you really think about it.
162 comments
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NDT the goat of saying rly dumb shit but everyone thinks it's somehow enlightening. he's like Jaden smith but Twitter likes him
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I mean I agree with him here. It's ridiculous how we are still this tribalistic species while basically everyone would be better off when we would work together (e.g. climate change would be non-existent)
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Passports weren't a general concept until the end of the 19th century. Before they were mostly to allow passage to certain areas inside one country, rather than for movement between countries. There have been Identifications for Nobels and Diplomats though.
Anyways the whole concept is mostly a concept of modern nation states not of ancient tribalism.
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It is possible to agree with something and still believe it is terribly presented.
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In tribal times, there were no maps and the borders moved a lot, but when you crossed them, you generally got driven back or killed.
This goes back to before there were humans, and all other territorial animals do it, too. -
Bold claim stating that climate change wouldn't be real if we just worked together. As if we didn't live in an ice age as the same species we are now.
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Just evolve into a homo without tribalism then and outbreed the rest of us
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Yes, but... did you know, if you kiss a mirror you will always kiss yourself on the lips. How's that?
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actually schizoposting before it was popular
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Saying dumb shit with smart words is pretty tight tho.
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Expressing the basest of notions with the loftiest of words is the pinnacle of wit.
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We live in a society
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We live in a patchwork of societies, I think is the thing
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Bottom text
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Sadly.
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I take it you're not from the US, as we're trained from birth to be overtly hostile to the concept, as well as each other.
There's no team in I, and society would be a slippery slope to evil socialism.
But hey, we are oh so very free... to die in the gutter alone as other Americans tell us to hurry up as our continued existence is negatively impacting their property values.
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Wait til you learn that the reason you hate immigrants and immigration is that the wealthy conditioned you to hate them. Notice how capital can cross borders, but people can't? This allows the wealthy to profit off of international arbitrage, while regular citizens can't. A CEO can move a factory to a low cost country to save on labor, but you in a wealthy country can't move there to save on cost of living. And the citizens in a poor country can't move to a wealthy country to earn better wages. The corporations get to take advantage of international arbitrage, but you don't.
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Corporations are people except when they're conveniently not!
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This is clearly a completely natural phenomenon, like the weather !
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Notice how capital can cross borders, but people can’t?
Well... some capital. Don't try to order anything from Cuba or Venezuela or Russia and expect it on your doorstep any time soon.
Possibly Mexico, Canada, or China soon too, if the Trumpies get everything they're asking for.
And the citizens in a poor country can’t move to a wealthy country to earn better wages.
Best example of this I've ever seen (other than Israel/Gaza, which is really more of an interior border) is Haiti/Dominican Republic. The fact that they're all on the same island but one half looks like the fucking Korean Demilitarized Zone to keep the other half out is bleak af. Particularly nauseating when you're seeing earthquake relief getting held up by some of the most evil bureaucratic fucks you've ever dealt with in your life.
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Well… some capital. Don’t try to order anything from Cuba or Venezuela or Russia and expect it on your doorstep any time soon.
This is a pretty interesting exception. The reason why Cuban or Venezuelan or Russian capital isn't very available internationally is because of embargoes. These embargoes and sanctions operate for the benefit of western imperialism, itself just another form of capitalism.
So the reason why national capital isn't available to international capital is because international capital prevents it from being available. Compare this to many post-colonial African and south american nations. The ones that towed the line of western imperialism, who politically nurtured a national ruling class to benefit and oversee the exploitation of the vast majority of their population in order to provide cheap labor and commodities, have "open" economies. Countries that attempt to provide for the social welfare of the masses (Cuba, Venezuela) or countries who pursue their own internationalist, "imperialist" agendas counter to the western consensus (current Russia) face embargo and sanction.
This is not to deflect any and all criticism from Cuba, Venezuela or historic Soviet Russia. It is an interesting condition to think about.
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Or mostly anywhere really. The EU exists for all that to be easier within the EU.
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I don't care if you hate him; he's right on this. this entire thing is bullshit.
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I love all the posts calling him arrogant and elitist for pointing out something, in a critical manner, that by their nature are arrogant and elitist: nation state borders.
Those things that make people who've done nothing feel entitled to more resources than other people by virtue of where their mother was hanging out when she popped them out.
I think dwelling on their artifical, self-serving nature is healthier than taking them seriously in any other sense than the threat of state violence for failing to pretend that they're sacred.
Humanity, not to be confused with your own individual greed or birth lottery results, would be far better off abolishing them. They bring nothing to the table but dehumanization, death, and inequity. Most, even most who consider themselves to be on the privileged side of the imaginary line in the dirt, have far more in common with the people trying to get to the privileged side than the miniscule populations of sociopath humans that use them to secure and metastasize their ego score hoards, the entire point of them.
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Yes and no.
Borders may not mean a lot when you just pop out of your mother.
But when you have worked 30-50 years building a place in a certain way you may actually have some legit entitlement on all that you built and worked for.
It's a complex issue. We've seem some countries have bad issues because bad inmigration politics.
I know it's against the dogma to even dare to talk about inmigration policies with anything that's not "open borders". It's a sin and the inquisition will promptly come after me for just mentioning that massive inmigration did not improve one particular country. And that a too "welcoming" policy was a proved failure.
But reality beats any kind of dogma, propaganda or illusion. And as rational thinking human beings, when the dogma fails we are required to actually notice it and act accordingly.
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How do the people living in squalor benefit despite working usually even harder with less protections than that worker who worked 30-50 years having their building being protected from those people's opportunity to do the same? What's wrong with that worker's 30-50 years of building yielding a little less so that none of them toil 30-50 years for basically nothing? The one born on side A isn't more deserving on the basis of being birthed on side A, that's nonsensical.
You seem to be looking at this from a tiny nation state citizen concerned about threats from "the other" viewpoint rather than a holistic, humanistic viewpoint.
Self-serving self-interest doesn't impress me. In most cases, such notions should be socially condemned. It's the reason humanity is on the brink of destroying our habitat and are currently killing one another all over.
The most destructive notion humanity was ever inspired to have was "ok... But what's in it for me?" Only cruelty, greed, and gluttony has ever come from such lines of thought.
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I wish I could upvote you a thousand times.
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This dude really is a pompous ass sometimes.
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Agreed he can be pompous but I think since he's an astronomer he is making the point that if you were in space and looked at earth you would wonder why are there borders
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Because it turns out sociology, anthropology and politics also exist.
If you were in space and looked at Earth you wouldn't see any people.
EDIT: Crap, someone is going to point out that you can see lights at night, aren't they? This thread is for pedants and now I've started a conversation about biomarkers you can see from orbit.
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To judge others so, you must be the personification of kindness and benevolence. Surely?
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I think it actually is interesting if you're going to call out humans as a species of animal!
All across species from unicellular to megafauna, from plants to fungus, you can find mechanisms used to defend an individual's physical territory. Ants and bees from the same species will fight and kill others colony members of they stray into their territory. Bears will fight and kill other bears. Our closest relatives, chimps, will go to war with neighboring chimp bands.
Artificial borders are humans way of saying "this is my territory enter at your own risk". The REALLY interesting thing is that we have established systematic exceptions to the behaviors we see in nature. "Ask us before you come and you can visit and be safe here from those that enforce our territory."
The temporary nature is unique, many social animals will permanently adopt an outsider into their group on occasion, equivalent to immigration, but I'm not aware of any that have pre-agreed temporary violations of group territory.
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I guess you can draw that comparison, but then human territories are exponentially bigger than anything an equivalent social animal might claim as "enter at your risk" area. A traveling pack of dogs can just go around another pack's territory. We can't do that, we're boxed in. There's no neutral space left. I guess you could argue there's international waters, but that's practically inaccessible to most people.
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okay I don't know how to articulate this properly but i'll try;
fukn get rekt ngt
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Only plebs wait in line. I put my request in an envelope, a government servant picks it up at my door and takes it to more government servants who do all the work before hand delivering it back.
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And you wait 6 months.
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Well I don't plan my trips last minute like some harlot.
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Black science man always talks like he's done weed for the first time and is trying to impress his nephew's friends.
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Hits the joint "borders man"
This is not interesting.
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I'm not saying NDT isn't a smart guy, but yeah he does tend to do that thing a lot where you describe a normal concept in a sort of detached anthropological way so it sounds profound even if it isn't.
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I think about this a few times a year and I become sad each time. We only get this one planet in the whole ass universe. And we can barely see all of it, unless we're lucky and/or rich (at least moreso than most of humankind).
It's profoundly ridiculous.
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I was flying to south East Asia, looking at the digital map of the plane. From above, you can kinda see the country lines.
What made me feel that incredible sadness is that within a 1000 mile radius, a child born might live in a world where they struggle with starvation and have worms in their stomach, or wake up each day with anime and toys. Some countries have so much wealth and resources. Where others barely have anything. I think about all of that as I fly to my vacation destination, having been incredibly lucky to have been born in a pretty wealthy country.
One could argue that you can be poor/abused anywhere. But there's a clear difference in quality of life here.
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One could argue that you can be poor/abused anywhere. But there's a clear difference in quality of life here.
Very true. You've captured my exact sentiment here.
And also, the very fact that you can be poor even in rich countries is an even greater failure of the system. Nobody in a "rich" country should be impoverished. There are plenty of resources there to take care of everyone as long as we all work together. But the system rewards only those who work for themselves.
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Mobility is better now than it has ever been, so don't get too sad about that.
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But only for the rich. If you don't have money, you can't
escapeleave your country. Barely even travel in your own country. Society has broken our nomadic heritage. We did it to ourselves eons ago when we started cultivation of the land, but with the modern borders and stuff, it's just been made so much harder. -
You're totally right about this. I find it frustrating in a different way that the ability to travel is easier and possible, which hasn't been the case for the majority of humanity, but (generally) artificial restrictions prevent it from happening.
I'm from Canada and my partner was born in Europe. When I hear how easily she was able to travel by train and plane, it makes me sad that we don't have a similar system. Even airfare is significantly cheaper there because trains are a worthy competitor.
A friend of mine who has relatives in China has talked about how people my age (university age) have been using the new train system to see so much of their country than they otherwise would be able to.
I hope that eventually there will be a similar transit system in Canada that allows poor people to see the country they live in. And I understand that by even living in Canada I don't really count amongst the global impoverished population. I understand the privilege.
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PSA: If all you have to do is wait in line, you're privileged af
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Ok?
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Maybe it's because I know autistic people, but NDT's obtuse starry-eyed splaining never triggered me as much as it seems to others.
He's an astrological trapped on a planet. What do you expect
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Personally, I find him irksome because I get a strong vibe from him that he thinks of himself as a very smart person, looking down on the intellectual peasants. Part of why I perceive him that way is because this is how I used to think, as an autistic nerd who built much of my identity up around being smart. That's also why behaviour of the sort that shows up on /r/iamverysmart (such as many of NDT's posts) makes me cringe so much.
Dissecting this a bit further, it's not necessarily that I think he thinks he's better than other people — rather the opposite: some of the most intellectually arrogant people I have known are, at their core, deeply insecure and feeling the need to justify their interests by presenting themselves in a certain way.
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Yeah that's exactly the vibe I get but for some reason it makes me feel more charitable towards him. Maybe because it doesn't trigger like an echo cringe in me because I'm not like that.
(I'm just like directly insecure lol)
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it's worth noting when the hate against NDT started and who was the most vocal about it.
Cosmos aired, and the christians flipped their shit. At the time, it was hilarious. Now it's kinda sad.
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I'm not Christian, haven't seen the show, and still think he's a pompous ass.
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This is a call for world federalism. I support it, but it's probably ahead of our time. A democratic world federation (a truly united nations [of earth] perhaps) would be able to more effectively solve many (global) problems.
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Or it's a return to how things were before nationalism rotted the brains of basically everyone on Earth
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You're imagining a false history. Before nationalism it was tribalism which is just small nationalism. Before that it was "if I see a male of my species I may have to kill them".
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Probably once aliens make their apparition, there'd be a much greater incentive to unite
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As if humans weren’t fiercely tribalistic forever. Other species beat each other to death, too.
The post may be right, but getting a bunch of homo sapiens from far away not to club each other to death is, historically, a hard problem, and countries and passports are kinda a stepping stone.
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It's crazy to think that the level of border control we have today would be unfathomable to someone even 100 years ago. If we go a bit earlier, how could you even ID someone without photographs?
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People could tell which village you came from just by your accent, strangers would easily stand out
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Sure, but go to a city and you're just another import. Go to another country, and you're just "the foreigner". Through almost all of human history, you could just kinda leave your past behind if you just ran away
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If I said the shit that fart smeller says people would literally say “shut up stoner” to me.
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You have to have an advanced degree, wealth and celebrity in order to publicly proclaim something that an introspective 12 year old would yell at his friends at 4 in the morning after completing a dare that he could gulp down a whole cup of sugar without coughing or puking
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This needs one of those bell curve memes.
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He somehow managed to make border abolition sound uncool. Many people don’t agree with it for many reasons, none of which were it being uncool until this tweet
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Join Schengen! It's easy, unless Austria abuses it's Veto rights
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Typical Austria... (i actually have no idea if this is typical , the only thing I know about Austria is Hitler was from there 😅)
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“ ‘Private property is the smallest unit of warfare’ - The Environmental Rescue Team Handbook”
— Annalee Newitz, The Terraformers (2023), chapter 15
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You think that's bad? Every April I have to hand the country I live in a bunch of papers with numbers on them just to exist. If I don't, they send men with guns. How crazy is that?
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what he's really complaining about is queuing, not borders. first world problem.
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That's how I read it. Rich man angry he had to stand in line.
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Weird way to misinterpret the obvious.
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So deep, so wise.
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Sure, as soon as we all agree on what form of government to have and what actions it should take, or at least the point at which we are all willing to not take up arms in opposition against it, we can get rid of these artificially conceived borders.
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Next episode, Tyson discovers flowers.
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Severed plant genitals?
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Fuck you very much for making me read that.
162 comments