Ask Lemmy @lemmy.world Flying Squid @lemmy.world 6mo ago

This company sells real human skulls. It claims all of its skulls are ethically sourced. How do you ethically source a human skull for sale to a random buyer?

Explore Skulls Unlimited for ethically sourced animal and human skulls, skeletons, and replicas. Perfect for educational institutions, medical research, and collectors. Trusted since 1986 for quality osteological specimens and exceptional customer service.

No, I don't want to buy one. This came out of a discussion about my brother, who is so much weirder than me if you can believe it, who owns a real human skull.

I don't know how he got it. I don't know where he got it from, maybe this company, more importantly, I don't know why he would want such a thing. He is not a scientist, he works in IT. He did get an MFA in theater, wanted to be a professional theater director and loves Shakespeare, I can't believe the reason was because he wanted Hamlet to be super authentic.

We're not all that close, so it really hasn't come up in conversation. I only know about it because he posted elsewhere a while back that he was on a Zoom meeting at work and he showed it off and couldn't understand why everyone stopped laughing and got silent. So obviously he thinks it's cool to own it.

It used to be a person. I'm an atheist and I don't believe in an afterlife, but that's just basic disrespect.

Anyway... how can you ethically source a skull and then sell it on the open market?

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Anyway… how can you ethically source a skull and then sell it on the open market?

You pay an intern in your marketing department to write "ethically sourced" on all your customer facing surfaces.
- That's my concern here. Like how would they know if this isn't similar to China harvesting organs from executed prisoners?
  
  Not knowing just adds spice!
- In theory? It's all about traceability and consent, preferably with a third party auditing system. A good skull salesman should be able to provide you with documentation of the origin of your skull and the consent obtained, as well as a contact at their third-party auditing firm. if the skull is fair trade, they should also be able to provide evidence that they are paying above market rates for their skull harvesters.
  
  Thank you kind sir and/or madame for providing a great deal more education on the human skull trade than I had ever intended to pursue!
I used to teach anatomy 20+ years ago. Sadly many of the skulls are sourced from the poorest people in impoverished countries. Companies pay a death benefit to the families or to the individual and then "harvest" the skull after death. They used to be priced based on the number of teeth and the presence of mandibular/maxillary degeneration. The highest priced skulls would come from donors and would have all their teeth.

Here's a link to the UCLA scandal if you want to get a feeling for how scummy the entire industry is
- That's the sort of thing I was thinking, unfortunately.
- So is there a guy that has to chop someone’s head off, strip all the flesh and then scoop the brain out??
  
  I’m kinda hoping there’s an acid dip they do instead, cause that would be an awful job…
  
  Most places to do it with insects. Sometimes they just leave them out but any organization with volume will use beetles.
  
  There's probably someone else somewhere who has a "real human brain in a jar", a couple people with "new" kidneys, corneas, a liver...
  
  Gotta maximize profits!
  
  😞
- Okay... But... Outside of conflicts of interest, wouldn't those families be worse off without this unconventional life insurance policy?
  
  Are they any better off with it? I don't the current rates but it used to be around a few pounds of rice. It's desperation rates for desperate people.
TBF most people already have an ethically sourced human skull.
- I didn't consent to having a skull. Though it's kinda grown on me.
  
  Wait, you've had a skull grow on you? You're boned
more importantly, I don't know why he would want such a thing
Answer: They don't.

The majority of these skulls are from people who donated their body to science. But instead of going to science, it goes to companies like this one that sell them. Legal, yes. Ethical, no.
- Source that "most" are like this?
  
  Or any
  
  How about a source for any of it
  
  Doesn't matter. Onus is on them to prove its ethically sourced and they fail miserably at that.
  
  Nowhere on their website does it detail they have any sort of processes to ensure the skulls are sourced ethically. It doesn't seem like any skulls are traceable or that any consent was given for the skulls to be sold commercially.
  
  In fact this statement from their president seems to indicate what OP is saying is accurate.
  
  All natural bone specimens are legally and ethically obtained. Suppliers World Wide send skulls that would otherwise be discarded or destroyed, as they are collected.
John Oliver had an episode where the main story answers your question.

Basically, if you donate your body "to science" there's a chance it could end up with such a company. I wouldn't call it ethical, but as of now it's legal.
- Well that's fucked. If I donate my body to science, it certianly isnt so my skull can sit in some dudes living room
  
  I'd be totally okay with that, as long as he attempted necromancy
  
  There's this woman who donated her body to science when she died ended up in the army being blown by IEDs.
This is where I disagree with the rest of society. Dead people are dead and don’t have rights, so I don’t see how most skulls would be unethical.

So the real question is will it upset the living and how much do you want to accommodate those people’s feelings? I’m not sure there’s a clear and unambiguous answer to this question.
- It's always about the living and their feelings. The dead don't care about nothin' because they lack the ability
- I think it's a murkier area than you're thinking. What if the skull was of a slave or of a Holocaust victim? I think selling such skulls would be highly unethical.
  
  Does it matter? I understand this could be emotionally sensitive for some people but the only reason I could see this being relevant is if my purchase somehow induced more slavery or genocide. That seems very unlikely—in fact I can think of a number of common purchases people make all the time without a second thought that are far more likely to encourage such crimes.
  
  I agree with you but I don't think it's intrinsically unethical because they are skulls, but because there might be humans emotionally attached to the remains of the diseased. Those skulls belong to someone (not the dead person anymore), and it is up to that person like with the rest of their property. In this regard, selling the remains of a loved one so you can feed the living, sounds exploitative to me, but I could say the same thing about any other economic injustice. All of with fall under unethical consumption under capitalism.
  
  If no one has a connection to said skull, then I'd agree that it is just a piece of bone, and dealing with it is no more ethical or unethical than with a piece of bone your dog finds outside.
  
  I think selling such skulls would be highly unethical.
  
  Would you? Why? FWIW I agree that as long as there's a living person who cares about the fate of the bones then selling them would be unethical, I'm just curious as to your specific reasons - like, what is the hypothetical you're imagining, behind this statement? Are you contending it would be unethical even if nobody living cares, just due to the provenance? I can see why you would object if the former user of the anatomy believed in the sanctity of remains, for example.
  
  I'm not sure I'd agree, but I'm not sure I'd disagree either. I'd need to think on it more. Right now, I'm leaning towards respecting the wishes of the dead as far as their remains go, because the universe is big and cruel and the only kindnesses are those we make for each other, so why shouldn't that extend as far as we do?
- Making it a commercial business makes it unethical. Who's to say they won't be exploiting the poor, desperate people and twisting the legality, cross country loopholes to profit?
  
  Do you think diamonds, lithium, rare metals are ethically sourced too, just because the retailer/marketing says so?
  
  Does exploiting people for profits upset you? How many of the "most" need to be unethical to upset you?
  
  Post like these confirm to people saying only the most lunatic fringe, out of touch with reality left reddit during/after the reddit controversy.
  
  I’m opposed to capitalist exploitation but don’t you think that’s a bit tangential here? Like we don’t see this sort of hand-wringing about buying a video game console.
  
  Personally I try not to participate in capitalist consumption more than necessary, so I wouldn’t buy a skull for that reason. But that’s not why this upsets people. Otherwise they wouldn’t be constantly buying new clothes, gadgets, etc. to amuse them. Those industries are if anything more likely to exploit and harm people, so focus your scrutiny there if you are so concerned with the global workers.
  
  This reminds me of the fake concern for sex workers that is used to shun and exile them from polite society. Yes, sex-workers are exploited, but when you’re using that exploitation as a shield for your real agenda, that needs to be examined critically.
- just wanted to note that the fundamental basic of civilization is burying your dead. at least according to archeologists. without honoring those who came before you, we are beasts.
  
  We are beasts. The separation between humans and animals is pure mythology. This idea is part of that myth.
- Fine, the dead are dead and don't have rights.
  
  But what about the living relatives and descendants do they have rights?
  
  Dead person or dead person's family donates his body to science. This is usually done under the agreement that when whatever organization is done sciencing with it, it will be respectfully disposed off(cremated or buried) or returned to the next of kin. It is not usually left to the whims of the organization to sell it like scrap parts.
  
  Without traceability for each and every skull there is no assurance that this was done ethically. There are just so many hypothetical scenarios in which this could affect the rights of next of kin. If its not traceable, its not ethical.
They only really say their skulls are legally obtained. i.e. it wasn't stolen and no one was murdered for it.

We are committed to ethical sourcing. We follow all relevant laws and regulations to ensure that our specimens are obtained legally and responsibly.

Likely many of these are discarded donations to science, legally purchased from the organization doing the "discarding". It absolutely does not follow that it was ethically sourced.

Unless you have traceability of each and every skull and a proof of informed consent (from the person whose skull it was, saying that they donate it for sale)for each skull there is no way to properly claim it was done ethically.
My friend is a medical librarian and stumbled across two full real skeletons being thrown away, she took their skulls. So yeah ethically sourced and she actually had a website where you could order different human bones left over from cadavers. So they're not that hard to source, a lot of people donate their body to science, which is good.
- Donating your body to science is not the same as donating it to be sold on the open market. If it's just sold on a website, sure, a scientist could buy it. But also a guy could buy it so he can fuck the eye sockets.
  
  …fuck them for science, I hope.
  
  And why should eye care if eye'm dead?
  
  The answer to OP's question gets pretty obvious when you ask a different question: how can I ethically donate my corpse to some guy who wants to fuck my eye sockets? What do I have to do to ensure my wishes are upheld?
  
  What if I want my children to take possession of my corpse? It's not a part of my estate; creditors can't take it from them. Once the probate process has been completed and my estate is completely disbursed, they can auction my corpse to the highest bidder, and keep the proceeds that would have otherwise gone to some filthy fucking financier.
  
  Scientists and medical practitioners aren't the only people who might want a human skull, nor should they be the only ones with access. An actor may wish to continue performing on stage as Yorick after their death, for example.
  
  Whatever means available for me to monetize my corpse after my death would be an answer to OP's question.
  
  I can recommend the Last Week Tonight Episode about just this topic. At least in the US, there's basically no difference
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tn7egDQ9lPg
  
  Donating your body to science is not the same as donating it to be sold on the open market.
  
  In the US, it pretty much is the exact same thing though.
- I been to a museum and yes they sell real human skulls along with other types.
  
  Just few pictures I took while I visited.
I’ve always wanted a human skull. I collect oddities, and it is a holy grail item for me. I have told my wife that I want my hand and skull handled by a master articulator that I know, so that I might live on as an occult tool.

My skull would be an ethically sourced skull whenever somebody buys me. Freaks like me are out there. And we give bomb head.
- Same same same. I would love to have one, and I would absolutely be down to have mine preserved.
  
  Also I study CS which is funny considering the "he works in IT" from the OP
  
  Looks like they go for around $3000. That's out of my price range.
I consider myself to be my consciousness. When I die, I am gone. I have no emotional attachment to the body my consciousness existed in. I am an organ donor. I'd prefer my body go to help people, but if parts of it don't - I have no possible way to care.

I am probably not the only person who feels roughly like this. Seems plausible to me that you could ethically source human skulls. 🤷‍♂️
I want someone to drink mead out of my skull after I die and absorb my power. This is my fondest wish.
- Describe your powers for a potential future buyer.
- Honestly, yeah. I spent decades developing and maintaining it, hopefully will spend a few more decades with it, but after that? I have no use for it anymore, but if it's still in decent condition, it would be a shame to waste it.
  
  I'd rather have it be of some use to someone, and "drink mead out of it" is very high up the list, right after "use it for science or education" and right before "use it for semi-realistic (but doubly awesome) historical weapon tests or demos". Other contenders are "deco piece", "movie/theatre prop" and "ritual implement".
  
  Actually, that probably applies to most of my body. Reuse or repurpose as much as you can, turn the rest into fertiliser.
  
  Failing that (if my spouse or family can't stand the thought of cremating my remains, I don't want to force them), at least bury me with some weapons. Not because I believe in Valhalla, I just want to troll some future archaeologist. Bonus points for mixing eras and qualities, e.g. a wallhanger 1700s cavalry sabre, weapons-grade Xiphos and a non-functional gun reproduction, dressed in a 900s Samurai armour.
You could collect skulls after informed consent. People could potentially sell/donate the rights to their skull after they're done using it, with maybe some permission from next-of-kin, since they have a certain degree of claim as well.

If everyone agrees though, you could then ethically take that skull and sell it to a third party I suppose. It'd be somewhat similar mechanically to using remains for medical education and/or research, except without the noble cause or broader societal benefit.

Otherwise, in my eyes, this would qualify as grave-robbing and definitely be frowned upon. Nonetheless a fairly common practice throughout history though.
- My partner and I have a large collection of dead things in and out of jars. If they wanted to live after I was dead, 100% chance they get my skull.
- I think informed consent is key - and I know I would give mine for the right sum, unless a family member called first dibs. I am planning to be cremated and a few ounces of ashes more or less won't make a difference.
  
  I can hardly see any other way to obtain a human skull ethically. If the seller is honest, they should make the signed consent form available to the buyer upon request.
  
  Herein lies the problem. Nowhere on their website can you find any details about informed consent or traceability. All you have are the words "ethically" peppered around the website without any definition as to what they mean by ethically nor any of their processes they use to ensure "ethicalness" of any of their skulls.
They are "Skulls Unlimited".

I'm a little afraid that they have no limits to the skulls that they provide.
- "What do you do? Oh, nice, sales! That's cool. What do you sell?"
Look, if someone cut me a cheque right now, for payment of my bones when I'm done with them I'd take it in an instant.

That's not what's happening here, those are likely bodies that didn't meet the grade for medical/scientific use so they were sold off, which is gross and shitty.

However, bidding on my meat carcass starts at $5000.
- Best I can offer is $10 for one of ya finger bones. I'm a nice guy though so you can pick which one. Deal?
  
  Compelling, but I don't want to break the set.
"that sounds awesome, I'd totally buy one!" i thought before looking at the price tags. I think I'll stick with plastic.
- That's another thing I don't want to know: how much my brother paid.
- How much are they? The skulls never loaded for me, even on a VPN.
  
  $2200-$2400, for the ones that were both complete and actually had price tags.
I'll bet 10:1 odds if you sent the DNA off to 23 and me it'd come back Uighur.
John Oliver did a show related to this. There doesn't seem to be a lot of restrictions on what can happen to your body once it has been donated.
- Thank you yes! I think going into that piece I leaned towards the “dead is dead” philosophy but I think John Oliver changed my mind when he talked about the importance of dignity and ethical sourcing.
I'm pretty sure everyone owns a human skull.
- Most days I feel like I'm leasing it at best.
Historical digs, people donating bodies to science (but aren't chosen to bomb tests), John/Jane doe.
- I don't think taking them from historical digs would be ethical (archaeologists certainly don't), and people who donate their bodies for science are donating them for science, not for anyone to buy off of a website. So I don't think either of those work here.
  
  The article guy linked states that body donations are regulated at the state level, unlike organ donation. That means some states don’t regulate or poorly regulate body donations, and the organizations that accept donations are free to lie to donors and sell bodies and body parts to other organizations, like the military or who-the-fuck-knows. Without regulation, you can get some weirdo employee that just takes a skull after they’re done blowing up the body or studying it at Red State University and sells it privately.
  
  Or it could be some weirdo died and his taxidermied great grandma from the box in the garage didn’t make the cut for the estate sale, so someone took it to the pawn shop. Watch the show Oddities. Fucked up shit gets bought and sold all the time.
The actual answer is pretty simple: Donating the body to "science". Last Week Tonight recently made an entire episode about this: donating your organs and body and where it can end up (and especially in the case of donating the body, it can end up in all kinds of places).

So it's ethically as in the people donated it and were aware of giving it away, but at least most of them certainly didn't know that this is what their skulls could end up being used for.
Not saying you and I would call it "ethical" but there are for profit companies who will pay for someone's funeral expenses to claim the body and sell it to researchers, universities, etc. So they didn't donate their body to science but their family sold it because they couldn't afford the service on their own.

Maybe not ethical, but legal, and therefore they may be able to claim it's "ethical" in advertising.
I choose cremation but before, my penis will be removed and donated for politicizing as a gift to the world famous penis museum. It may not be much to look at, but maybe they can sell it as a chotchky or a keychain trinket. Maybe a guy will hang my jewels from his first cubicle to keep snacks. I'm creative, why not end as weird art. Right?
- I've been there. It's an awesome museum.
  
  Somehow after all the years, I'm still at the level of key chain trinket. I need to invent something or become famous so I can at least advance to the $9.99 shelve. Maybe one day I could be at the level of resin in shot glass paper weight...you know, like $19.99 level?
Well, for the record I think it is super cool to own a skull but I belive it would be cery difficult to "rthically source"
If you donate your body to science, and they sell the bits they can't use to get money to do science, are you still fulfilling the original intent of the donation?
- Is that what is happening though? And I would say that you should be made aware that is what will happen before you agree to donate.
I don't see the problem. Loads of people have skulls of other animals on display. Why should a human be treated any different.
- For one thing, there is very little evidence that most other animals have any sort of reverence for the dead.
  
  I mean... Vultures and other carrion creatures revere the dead, in their own special ways.
  
  /j
  
  I could see how one voor find it enjoyable that their skull would be cherished by another human being.
  
  A guy I knew had a skull from the Roman era, that had a hole in it from a ballista arrow. Not the best way to go, but how cool is it that your head can amaze people two thousand years from now
  
  Probably not what you were thinking but there's plenty of stories of dogs not leaving their owners after death like Greyfriars bobby.
  Also elephants are known for mourning their dead.
  I think if I donated my body to science and they were all done with it, and they could make more money for research by selling bits off to weirdos that would be fine by me. Maybe put a little QR code on it that people could scan and get a little biography of me. That would probably make archeology a lot easier.
I own a real human skull; my parents gave it to me
There is nothing you can do to my body that I will find disrespectful.
I’m not looking to buy either, that’s so weird… but I do have some to sell. They don’t ask questions do they? I just need to get these off my hands, literally, I’ve been carrying these bags around for awhile. Human skulls are heavy.
We're not all that close

Sounds like you should keep it that way lol, what kind of freak shows off a human skull?
- You have no idea. I wouldn't even know where to begin.
  
  Let's just say that one of the least weird things about him is that he goes beyond veganism- he also won't eat anything with salt or any sort of oil. No cooking with oil, no oil-based salad dressings.
  
  How the fuck does someone even avoid salt?
- not saying this about the brother, but as a more generic answer, Nazis sure love them. not only as insignia but also because they believe in phrenology.
  
  We're Jewish, so that is not the case here. It's because he's a super weird person.
he works in IT

Tell him that buying one instead of harvesting fresh from your local tech company CEO is a total wuss move
Hell they can have mine if they want, if they put me out of my misery they can have it right now.
- yeah, I don't entirely understand resource hoarding after death, or accepting peer pressure from dead people. make me into cat food and coffee table decorations, or fertilizer, I don't care
  
  what I'd rather not is have my flesh pumped full of chemicals that make my resources unusable to the local biome for a few decades.
- Aww shit.. here we go again
- What kind of a bone headed idea is that?
Sunset Mesa Funeral Home has entered the chat.
This makes me think I need an addition to my will...

to make sure my kid can sell my remains for profit!
- The Ferengi were right
  
  They were just selling themselves as souvenirs. Hardly a good business, unless you're famous. It would have been more Ferengi if they sold themselves for necrophilia or some other high value kink stuff.
Look, you buy a car and add pollution in the air. You buy a skull and contribute to people being killed and harvested for skulls. What's the difference?
- Harvested skulls have to go to the Blood God, Khorne.
  
  "Blood for the Blood God! Skulls for the Skull Throne!"
Sorry, but I fail to see the problem with him owning a skull
- I didn't say there was a problem with him owning a skull. Other than how he's weird about it, I mean.
  
  I was talking about this company. I don't even know how he got it. For all I know, someone who died willed it to him.
  
  I don't see how he is being weird about it. OK I wouldn't show it to a zoom meeting full of random people, sure, but nothing else screams weird to me.
  
  Then again, I work in IT have been described as weird by some people so I suppose I'm not looking at it like usual people would
- You don’t see anything ethically wrong with “owning” a piece of a human that could be someone’s ancestor or relative? People really are disgusting pieces of shit.
  
  Assuming the dead person didn't mind, no. If I were in a situation where a proven relative of the deceased human would like the skull back, I would give it to them, sure. But if it's just for art/fantasy, I do not see any problems. I don't care what happens with my bones after I die.
Reminds me of this bit

Here's a "fun" tidbit: even as late as the 1980's it was cheaper for films to buy actual human remains than convincing fake skeletons. This happened famously in Poltergeist (1982).
Propably the same way universities get theirs. If you don't get a passing grade you pass.
Alongside the story for "donating to science", by proxy that donation can also be extended to other industries, like the arts.

There have been several stories of people donating their bodies to science, with the provision that their skull be used for Hamlet, or other shows where a bone may be used as a prop. I believe there was a story around a Polish pianist dedicating his skull to solely be used for a production of Hamlet, with David Tennant using his skull in the show.
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I don't know how he got it.

Did you ask?
Murray?
- Memento Murray
Nazis?

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