I was only gone for a day or two...

Most people I know adopt from rescue shelters and all the vegans I know do that, often even focusing on pets that are somewhat "disadvantaged" regarding getting adopted, i.e. disabled or chronically ill animals. They go to an animal shelter not primarily with the wish of having a pet but providing a better life for an animal (because let's face it, even the best-intentioned shelters are understaffed and underfunded).

am not vegan but I'll point out:

giving a cat a home, and fixing it so it won't breed further rescue cats, is not a dilemma to me.

When "keeping bees" you are ever only hosting them. If the conditions are not to the hive's liking, they will find somewhere else to live. This is a significant problem in North America where honeybees are not native, as they will displace native species. But if you have a productive hive, they are happy and well treated.

I knew a hardcore vegan girl like a decade ago when it was rather rare to see someone to that extreme, or at least to me. She said she feeds her cat only vegan food, and i was pretty sure that that's not a thing, but i didn't really know. Her roommate then told me that she goes through quite a lot of cats, because they either die or run away.

Yeah, adopt don't shop. But I've met many vegans who don't want pets at all. Including myself, I find the concept of owning a pet a little strange. But that's something everyone should decide for themself.

Cats are also invasive in some areas. Outdoor cats are the leading cause of songbird mortality.

My understanding was always that seeking out new pets was bad, but it was also bad to get rid of one if you already had it. I'm not a vegan, though I did date a couple many years ago and am basing this on what I remember from conversations.

Why would you need to separate a kitten from it's mom? There are so many cats in shelters, usually castrated already, that need a forever home.

I agree that it seems the obvious choice for a vegan is to not own a pet cat.

Shoot, I'd say keeping bees would be pro vegan. Good barter system for honey in exchange for premium hive space and care and protection. Symbiotic relationship.

No, they're hypocrites. These are practices that vegans should not be ok with, and said actions certain don't constitute a harmonious world view and philosophy. They should be ashamed of themselves. The real actions and ideas they should be putting forward is to not have pets, and to try to reduce invasive species impacts on local ecosystems (in which case cats are neutered to stop reproduction).

There are plenty of vegan friendly pets to choose from too. Rabbits, guinea pigs, hamsters, chinchillas, pygmy goats ect. If they are willing to accept insectivorous animals that list gets longer.

Why choose a pet like a cat if their diet is a philosophical problem for them? Choose a different animal.

And veganism is about living a lifestyle that causes the least amount of suffering. And not solely about not eating animal products. (Cultivated meat can be considered vegan, if it has been produced ethically and no animals or humans suffered) Not giving your cat meat causes suffering so is by definition not vegan.

Side note: Veganism is also about reducing human suffering so cocaine is not vegan. Just a reminder to vegans who use cocaine. Met a bunch of those last week.

I wish people didn't have such a tendency to think of things as binary, when basically nothing is. It's super unhelpful.

I bought some veggie dog food once and when i gave her the choice she would prefer the veggie dog food like 9/10 times. But it was super expensive in comparison.

What I don't understand about all of this is the consent aspect: your cat/dog/pet did not consent to a vegan diet, so why are you forcing it on them? Obviously you can't ask your pet what they want for dinner, but left to their own devices, I doubt any of them would choose a vegan diet, so... Why force it on them?

Even ignoring all of the science and everything, morally/ethically, it just feels messed up to me. It'd be like forcing your child to eat food they're allergic to because it's healthier/more ethical, despite it causing health issues for them.

Absolutely wild

That’s a really good point I’d never thought of. Veganising an obligate carnivore is unvegan. Mind blown 🤯

Ironically the only studies that seem to indicate its anything but terrible for the cats are funded/conducted by either pet food manufacturers, or Vegan organizations. Not there's even any actual decent studies done from what I've found.

Often people watch something like Dominion, get shocked, and decide to go vegan. It's a purely emotional decision. Don't expect any rational choices here.

I think it's great that you don't eat meat, that's a step many people refuse to take. If you have recognized the horror of the animal industry, then try to avoid udder milk as well. The dairy industry is the meat industry, they go hand in hand. Dairy cows are sold as food for humans and animals after they are no longer profitable, after just a few years. Don't force a life of misery on dairy cows.

One meow for meat, two for vegan

Hell yeah! Nobody should force their choices on any living animal. It's very bad for a cat to force it on a vegan diet, and it's very bad for a fish to force it to be cat food. Obviously the cat should only eat lab meat.

if the cat enjoys the vegan food and it is nutritious then there is really not an issue.

obviously you can't stop a cat killing things.

This guy has done studies into the very thing:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YxjGa0MXfAc

I'm pretty sure energy drinks might use synthetic taurine on a large scale, have we tried feeding cats Monster Energy? /s

My research said that it can work if you do it right. It is very hard and requires constant monitoring of the dog. I wouldn't recommend it but it will work better than cats. The problem I can forsee is a vegan owner moving there dog to a vegan diet and then refusing to accept that that there dog is having health issues because of it. They would need to be willing to start giving there dog regular food again but I don't see the extreme vegans doing that. They will likely just shove there head in the sand or blame something else like the vet.

Yeah, it's ridiculous to feed a dog vegetables. My dog gets a diet of pure meat. I drive around my city with a net gun and capture outdoor cats, and then butcher them for Fido. It's a win-win-win. Win: Fido gets meat. Win: I don't contribute to factory farming cruelty. Win: the native birds aren't driven extinct by predation. This is the only ethical way to feed a dog, since this way every living creature that ends up in Fido's hungry jaws lived a rich and fulfilling life.

In fact, cats fed a proper vegan diet tend to have better health: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10499249/

It actually never definitively says that in any of the studies mentioned... This particular study relies entirely on self reported results, with less than 10% of the sample sizes being fed a vegan diet, with no actual controls in place. It's a meaningless study. It honestly reads like a fluff piece where they collected some surveys from an already pro-vegan community. As we've seen from the rhetoric surrounding this situation some vegans will absolutely feed their pets inadequate food and feel good about themselves while doing it.

And the final nail in the coffin:

This research and its publication open access was funded by food awareness organisation ProVeg International (https://proveg.com).

Ahhh... there it is.

The research you linked has a clear conflict of interest in the funding source.

It really isn't funny as there are real animals being harmed. There pet will die a slow and agonizing death.

I think it is best to do your own research

Abstract states vegan cats are healthier, but fig. 4 would suggest that they live shorter (or are at least younger)

I think the bug take away is to talk to and listen to a expert. Especially don't start making huge changes to your cats diet

these foods have been around for a while and I’m not hearing about a mass die-off of indoor cats as a result,

Because the majority of people realize its a shitty idea

Humans aren't herbivores

We are omnivores, science has proven this

No we can't actually, not for cats. But you just keep pushing your irrational and hateful ideology to the empty void because you and every other fuckdamn vegan in this thread is getting blocked.

I don't understand why people upvote summaries that don't even try to be objective.

I don't understand how you guys are ignoring your own sources, please see my above comment.

https://www.aspca.org/news/why-cant-my-cat-be-vegan

Even if there is chance that it is possible it is very much not worth the risk. Malnutrition will only show its teeth long term. You cat will become very unhealthy and get sick. There bodies will break down and the will likely go blind. You shouldn't subject an animal under your care to such a painful life.

I agree vegans killing their cats is a good thing, cats are one of the biggest causes of small mammal extinction, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cat_predation_on_wildlife

Link peer reviewed literature, not youtube media

Cats cannot synthesize several proteins necessary for their thriving, and we cannot manufacture them affordably or at scale enough to be used as animal feed. Don't bother replying, I blocked you on your other comments, I just want you to know you are wrong and spreading dangerous misinformation

Yes I can because I actually read the peer reviewed primary source please see my above comment.

You left your SI in the link

Cats are obligate carnivores, sparky. That means they can't be vegan.

I suggest anyone check out the actual discussions.

I suggest not checking out some discussions in search for scientific data.

I agree.

I'm not a expert so you should read up on it. The problem is that the vegan community was only allowing random studies saying how cats were healthier on a vegan diet. None of those papers were peer reviewed or all that credible. On the other side there is tons of research and articles written by actual experts that say it is a bad idea. I looked it up before making this comment.

Vegans are by their very nature completely unreasonable

heavy sigh

Vegans be reposting this link everywhere not realizing how silly it makes them look. First, one of its big points is that there hasn’t been much research done into feeding cats vegan diets, mostly because it’s a bad idea.

Some great lines:

Cats on a high-protein vegetarian diet exhibited hypokalemia which accompanied recurrent polymyopathy. There was also increased creatinine kinase activity, likely reflecting the muscle damage caused by the myopathy, and reduced urinary potassium concentrations.

To simplify: even with protein supplements your cats muscles will decay over time.

showed that plasma taurine concentrations decreased by approximately 87% after only 2 weeks on a vegetarian diet (from 122 μmol/L to 16μmol/L). By the end of the 6-week study, there was no detectable taurine in plasma. Taurine concentrations were not different between the potassium-supplemented and non-supplemented groups, with both groups showing this substantial drop in taurine.

To simplify: Taurine supplements didn’t work. Though findings are mixed between all like, 3 studies that tried

In cats fed vegetarian diets that were supplemented with potassium, a myopathy was seen within 2 weeks of the dietary change this was characterized by ventroflexion of the head and the neck. The cats also showed lateral head resting, a stiff gait, muscular weakness, unsteadiness, and the occasional tremor of the head and pinnae.

To simplify: your car feels like shit and acts like they feel like shit

Weight loss and poor coat condition have also been observed in cats fed vegetarian diets. However, most cats in another study had a normal coat condition and no obviously diet-related clinical abnormalities picked up by clinical examination 27]. Clinical signs of lethargy with altered mentation, dysorexia, and muscle wasting, along with gut signs of bloating and increased borborygmi have also been observed 30].

Simplify: it was bad. Sometimes it wasn’t so bad, but lots of times it was bad and the owner should feel bad

I can keep going, literally every paragraph has some good “don’t fucking do that” material.

A vet friend in a very trendy city encounters a lot of cats with significant health problems that stem from their owner's attempt at a vegan diet, so whether or not it's possible, too many people harm the health of their pets through attempting a vegan diet for it to be a safe thing to recommend trying

Intresting paper. It is not the conclusive evidence that you think it is. It's ok, reading science is hard.

Paper concluded that the vegan diet did not seem to have adverse effects, but they had a very small sample size and the expiriment went on for a very short duration.

And then they site scientific papers that disagree with their findings. So there definitely is science out there that disagrees with the vegan diet being ok.

Did you actually read the article? Cause I did and here are some highlights from the article regarding felines specifically:

Sample sizes are tiny

3.2. Feline Studies-Meta-analysis was considered if more than one study presented the same outcome data. However, meta-analyses of these data were not possible due to (1) differences or lack of a comparison group, e.g., a meat-based diet comparator or (2) no presentation of a measure of central tendency or dispersion to input into the model.

Hypokalemia is: a low level of potassium (K+) in the blood serum.[1] Mild low potassium does not typically cause symptoms.[3] Symptoms may include feeling tired, leg cramps, weakness, and constipation.[1] Low potassium also increases the risk of an abnormal heart rhythm, which is often too slow and can cause cardiac arrest

3.2.1. Hematology/Biochemistry-Only three studies [27,29,30] have carried out hematological and/or biochemical analysis of blood in cats that were fed vegetarian diets, and it is worth noting that sample sizes were low. Cats on a high-protein vegetarian diet exhibited hypokalemia which accompanied recurrent polymyopathy [29]. There was also increased creatinine kinase activity, likely reflecting the muscle damage caused by the myopathy, and reduced urinary potassium concentrations.

Myopathy is: a disease of the muscle[1] in which the muscle fibers do not function properly.

3.2.3. Clinical Findings-In cats fed vegetarian diets that were supplemented with potassium, a myopathy was seen within 2 weeks of the dietary change [29]. This was characterized by ventroflexion of the head and the neck. The cats also showed lateral head resting, a stiff gait, muscular weakness, unsteadiness, and the occasional tremor of the head and pinnae....... Weight loss and poor coat condition have also been observed in cats fed vegetarian diets [29,30]. However, most cats in another study had a normal coat condition and no obviously diet-related clinical abnormalities picked up by clinical examination [27]. Clinical signs of lethargy with altered mentation, dysorexia, and muscle wasting, along with gut signs of bloating and increased borborygmi have also been observed [30].

These are guardian based reports which means there is significant bias from the owner to report positive effects and look over the negatives

3.2.4. Guardian-Reported Health Effects-Guardians generally believed that the transition to a meat-free diet had been positive. These studies are valuable, as large sample sizes of respondents (animals) are generally employed. Some guardians did notice an increase in stool volume but noted no issues with consistency [27]. When considering other aspects, coat condition was shinier [27], there was an improved scent of their animals (particularly relating to breath odor) [27], there was a tendency to be at the ideal body condition score rather than being obese [28,31].

This is about as close as you can get to justifying it , IF you fixate on ONE aspect and ignore everything else in the journal article:

Dodd et al. (2021) [31] collected dietary information for 1026 cats, of whom 187 were fed vegan diets. The latter were more frequently reported by guardians to be in very good health. They had more ideal body condition scores and were less likely to suffer from gastrointestinal and hepatic disorders than cats that were fed meat. No health disorders were found to be more likely in cats that were fed vegan diets. The reported differences were statistically significant.

So please explain to me how myopathy setting in and causing tremors after only two weeks of transitioning to a non meat based diet is good for cats?

So for the record you are dead flat wrong by your own damn source because you didn't read it or you ignored all the bad parts.

You are a danger to animals. Stop believing what you want to believe and look at the research

It's so sad, because veganism is a good force in our culture. Look at all of the vegan meat alternatives and more and more restaurants that have to have at least vegetarian options in certain areas. That wasn't a thing 20 years ago.

Vegan diets help the environment and improve health. But many vegans get this brain rot, probably a consequence of a superiority complex where they have to police everything around them. It happens in a lot of communities.

I'm not a vegan. But the idea has me eating less and less meat every year.

My MIL likes to pull out the phrase "indoctornated" anytime a doctor/vet/educated professional disagrees with her hardcore plant based diet views for all people and animals

But they Did tHerY owN rEsEaRCH

“But someone who calls themselves a professor made a 4 hour long YouTube essay on how they caaan be vegan come on click the link!!!”

I think it can be done for dog if you are careful and know what you are doing. However, I still wouldn't prioritize ethical views over the well being of my pets. That is very much animal abuse.

I have heard that they're little fucks, they'll just bounce to your leg to bite it and shit.

The pet sector must die, pet ownership isn’t vegan, pet breeders are the enemies;

We’re not doing “optimal nutrition”, sorry. That biohacking shit to create immortal adopted pets isn’t going to work out. It’s hardly even clear for humans what the optimal diet is, and they pretend that they know what it is for cats??? These fools don’t even comprehend that evolution doesn’t give a shit about longevity. It’s a standard imposed by the marketing agencies of pet foods who want to milk pet owner feelings to have their pets die after they do. It’s a false standard that is great for advertising, but otherwise functions as a Nirvana fallacy machine.

This is just a rephrase, but pet ownership is bourgeois. Well, aristocratic, then bourgeois. Detach. This isn’t about you, you don’t get to annex a sentient being just to keep them as an emotional service slave or as a status symbol. This one is especially for Americans where pets live better than poor people.

Uh. Hardly reasonable.

Good. I don't give a shit about what you put in your mouth. But if you think it's ok to give your pets a shit load of supplements for no reason at all other than forcing your extremism on helpless animals you're out of your mind.

"Bro, did you eat a date? That killed a bee or something. Not cool.”

I'm a level 5 vegan. I won't eat anything that casts a shadow.

You know what, it's so much easier to say you're an omnivore and end up eating meat once a year than to say you are a vegan who makes an exception about once a year. The first label would earn you a "wait so you're basically vegan?!" vs "you're not vegan then and you're a dirty cheater".

As you might have experienced, it's pretty hard to be vegan in a carnist world. People talk about animal abuse all the time, they confront you all the time, make fun of you. Most don't want to talk about it, they want to shut you up. The hate and ignorance is strong and different people react diffrently to that situation. Some stay quiet, like yourself, some get vocal. Some debate, some get angry. Calling vegans insufferable is like calling gays insufferable, or feminists. Some might be. We have recognized a major injustice and we want to change it.

"Bro, did you eat a date? That killed a bee or something. Not cool."

That's rage bait and you made it up. Why would anyone say that?

Spoken like a meat eating windows user

I'd just like to interject for a moment. What you're refering to as vegan, is in fact, GNU/vegan, or as I've recently taken to calling it, GNU plus vegan.

Linux evangelicals

We just want to save your code from eternal damnation

I've just discovered a new game: start posting how you love windows, meat and Elon, place bets who will attack you first

I use arch btw

You know I really hate vegans, but I FUCKING REALLY HATE Linux evangelicals, and they are FUCKING EVERYWHERE HERE.

Anyway, fuck veganism and linux

Yes, them calling me a rapist totally made we want to be like them and adopt their ideology.

Their strain of it appears to be poison religion like fundamentalist Christianity or Islam. A fanatic is a fanatic, whatever paint they're dipped in. Guess they're just trying to fill a hole in themselves.

any movement will have more or less militant members. that's life.

I'm curious. You eat meat, but you're not in favour of massacres. Alright, explain it to me.

Every vegan I have met is one form of little removed or another, without exception

Hey. Do you have time to talk about our lord and saviour, Linus Torvalds?

It would have to be the Linux crowd, just by force of numbers.

oh there's a shitton of r/atheists here too, and some are supermods.

For the most part, the "unreasonable vegan" stereotype comes from two places.

1. Confirmation bias. Veganism makes people uncomfortable with their own decisions, so people spread around the most outrageous stories about vegans as a defense mechanism. This is the same thing that happens in various circles with anyone whose mere existence makes other people insecure; e.g., teetotalers, or polyamorous people.
2. Just plain disagreeing with them. There are lots of vegan arguments that are logically valid, but they sound outrageous if you don't already agree with them. People have trouble looking past their initial emotional reactions, so they respond to logically valid arguments with mere incredulity.

Calling a group of people insane is so cool and good 👍🏻

I'm not vegan. But I find it very shady to talk shit about people like this.

I have met 1 and married her. But yo be fair she is just vegetarian whi developed a dairy allergy knocking out the non veg part of her diet

Makes a dumb good steak too

Crazy, I know tons of vegans and never met an insane one.

“Meatsplained” made my day though fr.

I mean, they're vegans. What exactly did you expect?

vegan ideology is welded directly to their identity.

When you suggest that veganism may not be the eternal elixir of life and the cure to all the worlds woes, you are attacking their identity.

No one EVER rationally responds to identity attacks.