CNN's debate was no fair fight
CNN's debate was no fair fight
Joe Biden's terrible performance has caused panic among Democrats
I don't know what was wrong with Joe Biden. It's hard to imagine that they ever would have asked for a debate if this was the way he is normally. We've seen him recently holding press conferences and giving speeches and he seemed to be fine. They said he had a cold so maybe he really was on drugs — Nyquil or Mucinex or something that made him seem so shaky and frail. Whatever it was, it was a terrible debate for him and if he does stay in the race (which is almost certain in my opinion) the campaign is going to have a lot of work to do to dig out of the hole that was dug last night. The media smells blood and they are circling like a bunch of starved piranhas.
. . . For some odd reason, moderator Jake Tapper told Trump in the beginning that he didn't need to answer the questions and that he could use the time however he wanted. Trump ran with that, essentially giving a rally speech whenever he had the floor and was unresponsive to the vast majority of the questions. He made faces and insulted Biden to his face, at one point calling him a criminal and a Manchurian candidate. If anyone had said 10 years ago that this would happen at a presidential debate they would have been laughed out of the room.
After the debate when most of the country had turned off cable news or gone to bed, CNN aired its fact check. And it's a doozy:
It sure would have been good if even some of that epic litany of lies could have been checked while people were still watching. The decision to have the moderators sit like a couple of potted plants woodenly asking questions about child care while Trump responded with irrelevant lies was inexplicable. Why did they even bother to ask questions at all? They could have just run the timer and let the candidates talk for two minutes each about anything they wanted. It probably would have been more enlightening.
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It's amazing to me that "he sounds feeble" is worse than "everything he said wasn't true."
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Problem is, the lower information voters don’t know that Trump is lying, and Biden couldn’t point that out in a clear and concise way. He was soft and rambling and wasn’t campaigning competently on that stage.
He needed to make the case against Trump. Which isn’t hard.
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This is exactly the issue. The bar was set so low. He was barely able to put together a coherent response to the infanticide claims, which was something even the lowest of information voters know is a lie. He let Trump walk all over him on immigration even though Biden put together a "bipartisan" plan that was just a Republican wishlist. If Biden had articulated any of that we'd probably be having a different conversion.
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We know Trump is a liar.
Biden had to prove he wasn't feeble... and he failed at that.
Voting for Biden and his administration is still 100% the correct decision, but that debate isn't going to convince any swing voters. If you want to use the incumbency advantage you need to convince folks you can stay the course for the next 4 years.
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that debate isn’t going to convince any swing voters
I am voting for Biden. But that debate convinced multiple swing voters I personally know to vote for Trump. All I hear from both democrats and republicans is that Biden is senile. That bunch of nonsense followed by "we beat medicare" line lost tens of millions of votes for Biden.
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Truth doesn't really matter in a presidential debate, it's not actually a debate. It's all about appearing superior than your opponent.
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Don't you think he looks tired?
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I always kind of hated that bit, because it seemed so unrealistic. And here we are.
Life imitates art.
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The only reason I'll still v9te for Biden is because I know the rest of the people around him will be doing the decision making. I think he's a piece of shit for trying to run a 2nd term and potentially losing the Whitehouse to trump over it. You could literally throw any well spoken 50 year old Democrat to run against trump and they'd have a layup for a win. Instead we have to choose between a nutjob liar and a guy who probably could reason himself into a win against a child that rides the short bus. He wasn't great 4 years ago, but he's now very obviously not capable of leading a country.
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The problem is that it's next to impossible for a party to replace an incumbent president on the ticket without a fight. And the Democrats don't have time for a fight right now.
The logical choice would be the VP, but Harris is less popular than Biden with all his flaws. She gets tagged with all of his negatives plus the misogyny and racism pervasive among voters who would vote for Putin before they vote for a minority or a woman. If she had a more progressive record as a politician, maybe she could bring new, young voters to the table.
If the DNC and Biden wanted Harris to be the candidate, the time to step aside was two years ago. That would have given Harris the opportunity to establish herself as a leader worth following. The racists and the misogynists have less ammo if she's already doing the job well. Of course, that assumes she would have done well.
And then we could have had a legitimate primary. If Harris was failing, it would have been easier to run against an incumbent who was not elected and had a low approval rating. The best candidate could have risen to the top, introduced themselves to American voters, and built a political machine capable of beating Trump in the general election.
Biden didn't want to do that, so now he must win. There isn't another option.
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You know what the real problem is? Biden reminded me and millions of other people of our frail grandparents in a stressful, scary, situation. We love them, (although I'm not a fan of Biden), but we don't let them drive or end up in those situations.
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we live in a post truth world and trump is the master of the gish gallop
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I am pasting this from another thread where I replied to a person that said he was going to vote for Biden no matter what.
I don't care who you vote for. It is very clear to me you will vote for Democrats. That is great.
I do care about who my aunt and her family votes for, a lot. She is democrat leaning. Her husband is republican leaning. They both believe the middle class is getting destroyed by politicians for the last 2 decades. They are both retired. They used to be middle/low income. These days they are clearly low income.
- In 2004, they both voted for Bush.
- In 2008, they both voted for Obama.
- In 2012, they both voted for Obama.
- In 2016, they both claimed to vote for Trump, although I believe my aunt might have voted for Hillary. (Uncle has military background. He kept saying if he did what Hillary did when he was in active duty, he would be in prison for the rest of his life.)
- In 2020, they both voted for Biden.
For the last 2 years, they both are saying that they don’t want to vote for Trump but Biden destroyed the economy for middle class. It was clear they might give Biden another shot if he managed to recover the economy before the election.
Ever since the debate, they both are dead set on voting for Trump. All I hear is “Of course the economy would be bad, he is senile.” or any “Of course xyz would be bad, he is senile.”
As I said, I don’t care who you vote for. I care for the votes of people that have not decided whether to vote for Trump or Biden. In the debate, Biden lost a lot of them. Biden lost that debate, clearly! Saying “they both are senile” or "Trump lied during the debate" is damage control by Dems. If Dems insist on going forward with Biden, Trump will be president. I am sure of that.
Now you can say my aunt and her family are stupid. You can say I am stupid for not changing their minds. You can say Trump is an insurrectionist and we are all stupid. You can even say all of the Americans are stupid, it is your first amendment right. You can down-vote me to hell if it makes you feel good. None of these will change the fact that my aunt and her family will vote for Trump unless Dems change the candidate or Biden manages to shit rainbows and use it to gift a million dollars to my aunt’s family.
At this point being a Biden apologist is the same thing as voting for Trump. Trump will win.
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It was Biden's job to call out Trump's lies, but he was nowhere near competent enough to do that. See how Trump called out Biden's incoherence, highlighting the issue to everybody ("yeah you beat medicare to death", "I didn't understand the end of that sentence, and I don't think he does either", etc)
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It's worse if you expect the first guy to be a strong contender against the second guy
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I’m voting for Biden so don’t give me shit about being a Leftist helping Trump win. But if he does win, remember that Dems had a million chances to run someone better and this is what they let happen. It’ll be their fault if we get more of the bad man.
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The dems suspended the primaries in a number of states and more or less coronated Biden.
The Dems believe in democracy only when against the GOP but do not believe in democracy when deciding matters inside their party.
The "Democratic" Party my ass cheeks. Clowns and hypocrites.
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History, procedure, common sense, and logic all said that was what was going to happen. They didn't cancel the primaries. They never started the primaries. A lot of states started holding primaries assuming the incumbent wasn't running again. But that was never the case. Biden never said that he was only going to run the one time and not again. People in his orbit discussed that he might do that. But that was nothing that he said or that they ever committed to.
You and I are welcome to believe this what he should have done. But historically if an incumbent decides to run for another Term. No party ever Has primaried them. We can criticize Biden on not telegraphing that well enough. That's fair. We can absolutely criticized Biden on things like that. But policy-wise and as far as his administration goes. He's been fairly popular and consequential. Despite the one really big issue which seems to be all people want to talk about ignoring the fascist in the room.
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THANK YOU!!!! MORE TRUMP WILL BE THE DIRECT RESULT OF DOGSHIT LEADERSHIP IN THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY!
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To run a debate with Trump and without live fact checking was just plain stupid. You know he's just going to run his rehearsed talking points without so much as trying to answer even mildly uncomfortable questions. They not only let him get away with serial lying, they basically laid the groundwork so he could get away with it.
Fact checks after the fact never reach the people that need to see them.
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2 major problems with that. Good luck getting him to agree to a debate with fact checking. Even when he is blatantly lying, he's just going to accuse the fact checkers of bias, and force his supporters to distance themselves from reality more than they are already.
The best defence is to ignore it, and focus on the issues that people care about. The best thing Biden can do is present a strong coherent front, and pretend like trump isn't even there at all.
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It was Biden's job to call out Trump's lies, not the moderators' job, but he was nowhere near competent enough to do that. See how Trump called out Biden's incoherence, highlighting the issue to everybody ("yeah you beat medicare to death", "I didn't understand the end of that sentence, and I don't think he does either", etc)
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'Calling out lies' isn't fact-checking - at best it would have turned into a 'your word against mine, who will people believe' mudslinging contest. Fact-checking puts the onus on the person telling the lie to correct it - 'this is false and here is a source that says so'.
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CNN is essentially owned by John Malone now. It's just Fox News lite.
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Are all American "debates" like this? The moderators just let them rattle off lies and skip the questions without challenging them?
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Nope.
Up till this year a non partisan committee handled the debates and lent it an air of impartially and at least tried to hold candidates to the questions.
Both parties decided to boycott those debates, and set up their own with CNN as the host.
I've been removed about it for months now and everyone's been telling me it'll be fine...
Edit:
2020 debates
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Hard disagree. This wasn't unusual. Presidential debates are notorious for moderators being ineffectual and unwilling to challenge lies.
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Pretty much every Trump debate has been like this. This one was actually an improvement from 2020 and 2016 because his microphone was turned off so he wasn't able to just yell over the other person and constantly interrupt.
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Yes. 90% of the time is almost always off topic. Sometimes a candidate spends a whole sentence saying something related, but that's as close to organized as it ever was.
Trump definitely does more personal attacks, but that's about it. I've seen a moderator make a correcting statement once.
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They're getting much worse
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They are now, apparently.
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TLDR:
All that's missing is a swastika
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On Biden because he's enabling the genocide in Gaza?
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Trump would show how genocide is done
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Someone pointed out, the debate was scheduled for 9pm, with two men over 70. I'm in my 50's, and I'm no good after 8pm. This should have been held in the morning.
The debate was poorly arranged, and once again Biden's incompetent staff contributed by letting it happen.
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Fair enough, but isn't it reasonable to want the president of the United States to be someone who doesn't fall apart after 9pm?
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I remember Clinton's "3am phone call" ad that she used against Obama. Now centrists are fine with "not after Wheel of Fortune."
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Oh, yeah. Absolutely. But I also want a president who's not just going to take amphetamines so he can perform well past his bed time.
I'm not saying either of these guys is my first choice. I'm just saying that it was late, Biden had a cold, and he was probably taking Nyquil or something - he would want to be up there sneezing and blowing his nose. If you compare his performance in the debate to his speech in N Carolina, he certainly wasn't at his peak. Good knows how much cocaine Trump had snorted before the debate.
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Holy cope.
People here actually deluding themselves into Biden falling for Debate tricks instead of saying he "beat Medicare" and "we need Abortion because foreigners are raping women".
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If Biden was dead I'd still vote for him over trump.
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Yeah but people are correct when they ask if that's really the standard you should be aiming for. If democrats want to beat trump as much as they say - perhaps to stop shooting themselves in the foot, picking incrementalist candidates who forget where they are, and trying to re-engage people that (correctly) feel completely unrepresented by offering up these ancient clowns would be a good start.
Blind allegiance to the most uninspiring dem runner in history, and his campaign being more about who he isn't...it's just the emperor's new clothes but as an extremely consequential election.
If democrats lose again, it's time for some serious self reflection - as bad as trump is, and as insane and dangerous some of his supporters are - that's not an acceptable excuse for losing an election - if anything, it makes it more embarrassing that there's anything resembling an actual contest.
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It's bad here, but it's actually a mental institution on reddit.
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I am losing my mind over what I see on Reddit right now. They are arguing that Trump should quit running for president if he wants to serve his country.
Biden is senile! Trump is a POS. He has always been a POS. This no news to anyone. But, the biggest thing the debate revealed is that Biden is senile. He lost A LOT of votes during the debate. Trump did not lose any votes. Everyone knew Trump was a POS before the debate.
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BIDEN: Fentanyl and the byproducts of fentanyl went down for a while. And I wanted to make sure we use the machinery that can detect fentanyl, these big machines that roll over everything that comes across the border, and it costs a lot of money. That was part of this deal we put together, this bipartisan deal.
More fentanyl machines, were able to detect drugs, more numbers of agents, more numbers of all the people at the border. And when we had that deal done, he went – he called his Republican colleagues said don’t do it. It’s going to hurt me politically.
He never argued it’s not a good bill. It’s a really good bill. We need those machines. We need those machines. And we’re coming down very hard in every country in Asia in terms of precursors for fentanyl. And Mexico is working with us to make sure they don’t have the technology to be able to put it together. That’s what we have to do. We need those machines.
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They need to defend their talking points:
- Trump is the worst thing to ever happen to the US (I think GWB was worse- Global War on Terrorism us $8 trillion IIRC, est. 1 million excess deaths in Iraq, est. 360'000 excess deaths in Afghanistan, and both countries ravaged economically and socially).
- Biden is the only one that can save us from Trump and the Republicans and Project 2025.
- A vote not for Biden is a vote for Trump. When I go to vote for Jill Stein I'm literally, according to them, voting for Trump. I don't know how their stupid minds figured this one out. Must be some Terrence Howard math they are doing (one multiplied by one equals two- look it up).
- This is the most important election evar!! Every election seems to be the most important: The world is going to end if my guy/gal doesn't get in! Chicken Little, the sky has been falling for so long, or more accurately, you've been yelling about it for so long that I've come to believe that it's all lies and not truth.
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The part about voting is pretty simple logic.
In a voting system where the one who gets majority of the votes wins, the other votes don't really have an impact. Of course they are part of the race to win, but outside of that, what do the other votes do? Nothing. In other systems those votes would cause a second round to happen, but in the US system they don't. Those votes are just... gone.
Sure, you could argue that it's about "sending a message", but... why? Why do this now while the Project 2025 looms over the US if the Republicans win? The Democratic Party won't change before the elections and no amount of threatening to vote for 3rd party will change that.
The part about "if you don't vote for Biden, you vote for Trump" is not literal. It's more... abstract if that makes sense. Since if you vote for parties that have no realistic chance of winning, it means that a party that has a chance of winning doesn't get that vote and the party you least want in power is one vote closer to win the election. This logic goes for both Democrats and Republicans. If a Republican votes for third party that has no chance of winning, their vote metaphorically goes to the Democratic party, since the Republican party will be one vote further away from the Democratic party. Hell, this same logic, to some extent, also applies to other systems, but not as much as the US system.
So unless you are predicting Jill Stein to be making history and winning as a third party, a thing that hasn't happened, that vote won't affect the elections and the party you least want in power is just one vote closer to be winning.
In a two round system, your vote would matter more, since your vote would be affecting everyone's chance of getting an absolute majority of 50% all votes. And since everyone, but your chosen party, is one vote further from the 50% mark, a second round has a higher chance of happening.
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These people are so stupid they're falling for the exact same stuff we heard in 2016.
Trump was a racist and said stupid stuff. But he didn't start any wars. Trump was far from the world ending. Then again, Biden was being insanely racist this debate too. Blaming the need for abortion on foreign immigrants raping women.
Deluded Democrats have no idea what an actual militarist Fascist looks like. This cycle of sliding right will only be broken by a third party.
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People need to chill the fuck out.
Do any of you remember the first debate between Kerry and W? W sounded and stammered like a compete moron, and it made no difference.
These debates are a waste of time and Biden should never have agreed to debate a traitor.
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Bush didn't sound nearly this bad. And they also ran such a novel attack campaign it invented a new term, "swift boating". Which is right in line with Trump's gish gallop. Bush was also a war time president.
These situations are not analogous, the dominoes are lined up completely differently.
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Yes, exactly. Only now we’ve punched ourself in the nads and have to walk it off when there should never have been this issue.
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W is younger than both Biden and Trump, the fact that we have geriatrics running is the real problem
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Your guy is a lost case and you are coping so hard. 🙄
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He was massively over coached.
The very first thing he needed to say was:
"This man is going to lie to you. He's going to lie the entire time, and probably the only thing he will say true is his name."
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Agreed.
Biden could have started saying, "you know, I've never been a good debater -- especially with a bit of a campaign cold -- but what I have been good at is running this country. I've clearly been around for a while and, since I've dedicated my career and life to being a servant to this great country, I've never been more optimistic about America's economy. Yes, we've taken a few punches recovering from the pandemic, but compared to our international neighbors we are doing ok. Not great, but not bad. There is still a lot of work left to do cleaning up from the mistakes of my predecesor, but we are making good progress and will continue to do so. <insert list of capping medication prescription costs, FED interest rates have stopped and not rising, historically low unemployment with 11 million new jobs, taxes on corporations>"
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'you have the morals of an alley cat'
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If Biden faced a serious primary, we'd have known he was like this months ago and had even more time to find a competent replacement.
But people said it was too late then.
They say it's too late now, but it still isn't.
It's too big of a risk to keep plowing ahead like we're headed to Country Kitchen Buffet...
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You overestimate the risk of this specific event. I do think the DNC and all Americans need a wakeup call before November and this may or may not be it, but the debate is forgettable in 1 week whereas the consequences of these Supreme Court decisions or going to be with us for years to come.
Democrats have other opportunities to energize their base, it's up to them to use these opportunities, and avoid letting Trump dominate every election conversation.
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You overestimate the risk of this specific event
This isn't a one off thing tho.
This is Biden. He's not going to magically change a bunch of policy positions to align with the Dem platform out of nowhere.
He's not going to magically start acting half his age on the campaign trail.
No malarkey, what you see is what you get.
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I mean, the Biden camp didn't need to take this debate.
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I don't know the details for how far ahead all the rules were decided. I would have assumed months but clearly not.
A BIG news story yesterday was that republicans were angry that there would be live fact checking during the debate. So CNN got rid of that literally the afternoon of the debate. That makes a massive difference because it means that Biden now needed to actively refute the increasingly blatant lies in addition to getting his talking points across.
And the format always went against Biden. His stutter and aphasia do not mix well with short 3 minute responses. With proper debate prep and a focus on talking points, he is mostly good. We had a few moments but even when he was at his most feeble sounding he was fine. But once he had to respond to things like "you are a manchurian candidate" and "you are basically a Palestinian but a bad one"? Then it becomes "okay, call this prick the c-word. Now I need to also cite this fact that is part of my border security answer. And then I need to talk about... jesus christ are we actually talking about global warming right now?"
And that fucked Biden. Because that is not something a POTUS needs to be able to handle. If Kim Jong Un started talking like that during a meeting... we might literally invade North Korea. Almost all meaningful conversation between world leaders is basically heavily scripted speeches or closed door conversations where people acknowledge others are human.
But also? CNN didn't even follow their own format. They repeatedly unmuted candidates (mostly trump but a few times Biden) so they could get a juicy comeback in.
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I mean. Sure I guess?
So it was unfair. Sure.
But Biden and his camp didn't need to agree to a debate. It was going to get them nothing. There was NOTHING to gain here and everything to lose.
And they lost.. everything .
It shows that the Biden team isn't capable of manging this election; it showed that Biden isn't capable of offering the rhetoric it takes to win.
The Presidential role is a communications job. If he can't do the communications part of this, he__cant__win.
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Then it becomes “okay, call this prick the c-word. Now I need to also cite this fact that is part of my border security answer. And then I need to talk about… jesus christ are we actually talking about global warming right now?”
That would be an understandable reaction from the average person but the president should be a lot more capable than the average person. Even if this specific sort of thing isn't something he needs to be able to handle, he still needs to handle things a lot harder than this and his performance here isn't reassuring me that he can. Trump is so predictably rude that Biden should have been totally ready for it.
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They absolutely needed to. Biden can't hide behind Covid protocol this time, he needs to be publicly visible far more in this campaign. Also whether it was mutual or not, Trump would use no debates as an attack against Biden.
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IMHO, complaining about the refs feels like grasping for straws.
Biden was rambling, incoherent, and unlike Trump, he couldn’t get on message. And the messaging against Trump ain’t complex. He wants fascism, he’s killing women, covid was a fucking disaster under him, he’s a felon, and he’s lying. Biden struggled to get the basics out in a clear and coherent way.
IMHO, this is NOT the time to keep on and carry on. This debate is early enough that he can still step down and we can have a contested convention. The alternative is fascism. Biden is going to lose this shit.
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Why doesn't he just answer every question with:
"Yeah but this is the man who thought shooting up bleach and letting sunlight into your lungs would cure COVID and then said it on TV"
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He could also have ended all of his answers with "I'll hand this back over to the convicted felon."
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He did at least get that in once. But yeah, it should have been a slam dunk.
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Here’s the catch: we might expect that, or think that or want that, but “that” isn’t going to happen unless Biden wants that because the world of politics has its own laws just like every other discipline / industry.
I seriously doubt there’s any chance of it, but since we’re allotted this specific window to pretend we can choose such a thing, why not. I’d go for Bernie, or Warren, or Schiff, or a few others.
Sunday, ten years too late, they’ll send talking heads to the old-people political shows to vigorously support Biden, or the “new” messaging or whatever their mitigation strategy is. But for now, just today, sure let’s imagine.
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When have any of these debates in the past twenty years been “fair”? The democrats knew what they were getting into.
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Brandon fucked up. Bad. He played into all that bullshit the traitors have been planning. It was truly disheartening.
Look, I’m voting for him. I’ll vote for any D in hopes of stopping the republican traitor filth. But Brandon needs to fuck off. Someone needs to talk sense to him and have him recognize what is right and necessary for the country.
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I guarantee you the subset of DNC operatives invested in keeping Biden is vastly larger than any advocating for someone else.
This is all media turd circus because we were stupid enough to stand in the same room with a demented orange rapist in order to, uh, “reach undecideds”.
Welp. We reached ‘em. Good job DNC. As per.
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If they stand by him while the media eviscerates him then Trump wins, full stop.
If they want to fight this off he needs to be on national TV as often as possible over the next couple weeks answering questions without scripts or prompters. It's the only way out of this hole.
If he will not or can not do that, he must step aside.
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Or maybe we shouldn't have anyone debating a Facist anti-intellectual. Because you can't.
It's like arguing with a toddler. You can't, because even when you are right you are wrong
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Skill issue.
Of course the opponent is always going to claim you're wrong, that doesn't mean you can't mount a competent response. If their tactics are so incredibly effective that there's no way to counter them, then steal those tactics and throw them right back at their face. Trump isn't even an unknown quantity, they've got teams of people working for 8 years to come up with an answer to his approach, if Biden still isn't up to the task then he needs to step aside and let someone else handle it.
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Salon always has a bias, but I also can't help but think he was on Sudafed or something. I also have seen him at other things and he's generally less... raspy. Doesn't change that it was stupid to go on like that, though.
I fortunately skipped the debate and only watched highlights, though. I already hate "debates" as far as I remember since, at best, it's just fluffy sound bites and vague promises, and at worst, a series of unrefuted lies. This sounds like everything I hate about typical "debates" turned up to 11.
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As it was always going to be.
DNC, get this through your heads: Debates Are Dead. They were getting pretty useless in an always-on world anyway, but Trump killed them dead.
Agreeing to these means you haven’t learned the lessons he already taught you. Put him in prison, not on tv.
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Whoever decided that putting that old man on stage in front of a national audience was a good idea should be shot. I'm voting for Kamala Harris, via Biden.
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HIS CONTROLLER WAS DISCONNECTED
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Another case of the lesser of two evils. I’m not necessarily hyped on Biden but holy shit he has never looked/sounded this old and feeble
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Joe struggled a lot.
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Does seem to be the consensus
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They only asked for the debate because they assumed Trump would say No to all the stupid stipulations they set for it. Then, they could've ran and told everyone that they tried to debate Trump but he wouldn't accept. They were really just left with no choice when Trump accepted their terms
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Well, that was also a dumb plan, then.
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having no crowd was so fucking stupid, such a dry dry awful environment. the guys need to be able to feed off the energy and rattle off a few applause lines, not just speak to the camera. such a dumb unforced error
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It's almost like it was a debate, and not a clown show
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But it was a clown show though
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I don't see how a crowd would have helped Biden. In fact the Dems requested this since they felt Trump feeds off of crowds.
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