9mo ago

Talking to normies about privacy:

157 comments

Using the term "normies" paints you as having a superiority complex, which isn't the best look.
- Everyone is a normie for some things
- I appreciate you calling out the use of the term "normie". Communities that frequently use such terms always end up with an unhealthy "us vs them" mentality.
  Like I'm not surprised people don't react well to someone bringing up privacy issues if said person starts the conversation with the mentality of "how do I enlighten this normie?"
  
  How do I reeeach theese Normies
  
  What's hilarious is that it becomes normalized by a majority in a community then a minority breaks off once it does and the cycle starts again. It's normies all the way down.
- Really? I just interpreted the use of normie here as "layperson" or "average user" and thought it was completely harmless.
  
  Have someone refer to you as a normie and lmk if it feels neutral or derogatory.
  
  Yes, it means layperson, but with derogatory cense. It is like using the n-word to describe black people (though not as extreme). If you mean average user, just say average user, unless you really mean to use derogatory term, that is.
- https://files.catbox.moe/0rq290.mp4
  
  What anime is that from ?
- You’re not wrong. That said sometimes it can be self-deprecating.
  In any case, one substitute is “non-nerds”, but I’m sure someone can think of a term that fits even better in the meme.
- I find it a very confusing term aswell because what does it even define? I always arrive on it being a synonymous to neurotypical outside the autistic context.
  
  The average person, the common man, the everyday user, the casual, the layman. Context dependent, obv.
- You getting downvoted sort of proves the point.
  
  That people agree/disagree?
- In the world of anime I am a normie and that's fine
- It implies them having that complex, thinking they know better than, as another comment pointed out, some nerds.
  You know, that kind of people thinking their degree of social anthropology or whatever makes them smarter than you in every area. Because whatever they are doing is important and whatever you are doing is toys for nerds.
  
  I can imagine a social butterfly looking down on nerds. Although I gotta level with you: that sounds like something that would primarily occur in high school to me. Maybe you're grown and still dealing with that, but either way: using the term normies is not going to help at all, I assure you.
- Being a normie isn’t the best look either.
  Misanthropy in current times is an indicator of a functioning brain.
  
  I've written software you use every day. Apache, NGinx, and a bunch of CNCF projects. I'm just as good as you at tech, likely better, and have a full understanding. I didn't give a crap.
  Opinions like yours are the essence of fedora anti culture that paints a picture of the asshole IT guy.
  
  Anyone that says it's all great is delusional or trying to exploit a market inefficiency.

'There's no point fighting it' or 'Privacy is already dead'
The arguments that make my eye twitch, It's such a defeatist outlook but seems like the most common nowadays.
- Everyone says this kind of stuff about any and every social issue. It drives me insane, do people not realize that it's a self-fulfilling prophecy? If everyone I heard say "there's no point fighting it" got together and fought it, they'd easily win.
  
  I see this a lot in discussions about climate change lately: country X is polluting just as much or more than us so we shouldn't do anything. This argument makes no sense.
  
  I'm genuinely curious, who exactly do you think will do the fighting?
  Cuz I can tell you who will be the first pushed forward, and that's young men and women. I can't speak for women so I won't. However, not sure if you've noticed, but we've got several generations of young men that have been taught that they are literally everything that's wrong with everything and are treated like it. What exactly would those young men be fighting for?
  Of course they're defeatist. They have been trained to be.
- There is a 3rd argument which I think is a bit more valid in "I value the service I receive in exchange for my personal data"
  Using the internet without an adblocker, noscript, and whatever else is really nasty. But even if you aren't on these platforms, marketers are still building profiles on you. Honestly we need data privacy legislation and some real talk about marketing and the costs of using the internet as a society.
  
  That argument pisses me off.
  “I don’t mind so fuck you.”
  If you want to use those services, that’s your business. But I don’t use those services; they still keep my data.
  
  It's funny, because people who defend DRM also use this argument. They are happy with the service, so they don't mind losing freedom. They can't understand that they could have both.
- Maybe you can help me out.
  I see lots of folks here who are programmers or have a ton of knowledge on ways to get around the big 5 to maintain privacy, but as a layman with only so much time in the day, it's hard to avoid taking the path of least resistance when using the Internet.
  I am a musician with a public profile on Instagram, and many of my friends who are also artists use TikTok or YouTube to get their exposure. It's kind of a necessity if you want to simply book a gig at a venue (they will ask for your social media handles to see how many followers you have to determine if it's even worth having you on).
  As artists we are also not flush with cash to pay for all the privacy software or VPNs. On top of that, so much of our information is already out there, I'm not sure how we'd even start reeling it back in.
  
  you don't have to go all in at once, mate. you can start by getting most important things in your control: your browser and search engine.
  if you like the interface of Google chrome and can't part away with it: use brave. else highly recommended to use Firefox.
  if you just like Google search results, use startpage, else use duckduckgo or brave search.
  these two things alone would make a meaningful difference.
  then for neutering most of third party tracking: use a private DNS(I'd suggest nextdns). it's just a "add a URL and forget about it'. it'll stop the tracking significantly.
  then you can continue by replacing other inconsequential stuff like Google notes(use Joplin), Google assistant(don't use any of this "smart" crap), Google fit(just exercise regularly. you don't need to micromanage it).
  then next step would be to start making some tough decisions: replace the keylogger that is Google keyboard with it's open source equivalent heliboard.
  then eventually you can go hardcore and use Facebook and other crap on browser only.
  so, all in all, even if you do only the first two(or just first) step, you're already 50% there.
  let me know in case you got any questions. and happy journey.
  
  You're in a career that demands exposure, so you're going to have to have two different personas - the public one and the private one.
  I'm also a layman. Unfortunately, privacy is complicated nowadays so it does require a lot of research.
  I would start here: https://www.privacyguides.org/en/
  
  https://github.com/awesome-selfhosted/awesome-selfhosted
  Not really a programmer, learned a lot with this list. I run a lot on old laptops and in the background of my desktop. Super useful skill and you can basically get 99% of software you need free with it. I save so much compared to subscription services, though I do pay for Proton cuz self hosting email is too much.
  
  You are in Sam Gold's world. Eventually social media will be no different than not using credit cards, being part of a grid, census (intermittent camps were established based on census data, so I'm not hyperbolizing here), yada yada yada.
  How to get out of it? Everyone who tries has their own gives and gets. Good luck to you, friend!
  
  That's the thing you don't . Once on the internet always on the internet is a real thing just try not to post anything from now and also if you do want to keep using insta a vpn is basically worthless as they will be "suspicious" and want more info like phone number (if you haven't given it to them aldready ) don't know about tiktok tho.
- Yeah, like people say 'I already use windows/google search/whatever, so it does not matter if i switch email provider/ whatever'.
  What?? I so hate this mentality: 'If you cant eliminate / change it fully, then why bother?' Bruh, small steps can go such a long way man...
  
  I'm definitely not without sin, I still use some services I know damn well don't give a shit about my privacy.
  But I'm using a lot less of those than I did 5 or 10 years ago, So it might be small steps but it's steps in the right direction and I intend to keep going that way.
- I'll never give up. I'll shove my 256-bit AES encrypted USB stick so far up the glowy asses they start vomiting shit and USB drives. I still use YouTube and shit tho. I try and convert people. I've been successful getting quite a few people on Signal. The problem is that if there isn't interoperability and everyone's friends aren't on it some forget to even check the app or don't get notifications. If you leave message contents in notifications you're fucked anyway. Lol I feel their pain, but I wish I could get people to care before bad things happen. I mean, bad things have happened. We just gotta keep it up.
- No, no, if you want me to punch a baby tell me all about "appropriate ads", and how sometimes you see ads that genuinely interest you, and that you're happy for Google to use your browsing habits in this way.
- Might be defeatist, but it's still an up hill battle. It's a lot of effort to stay off the grid while still having access to a lot of modern technology.
  I'm not about to start using multiple phones, swapping them in and out of faraday cages, never connecting to the net through anything besides proxy chains, and keeping my pc on an external hard drive. The list goes on and on for what you'd have to do to really truly have privacy. It's a lot of work.
- There is a point in fighting it and privacy is not dead lol
- The NSA knows absolutely anything about absolutely anyone it wants to know.
  Do you use a cellphone? Use a smart TV? Roku? Android play? Apple anything?
  I mean...the question now is what specifically do you want to protect and from whom?
  I'm not judging the want, just pointing out the reality of the want.

I recently got a confused look when I said that I pay for my email provider (3€/mo, but 1€/mo would also work).
Many people don't realize that operating an email server creates cost and they pay with letting Google/Yahoo/… read and analyze their communication.
- "But my mails are here in the browser!"
  "All the spam is annoying! Can you do something about it?"
- I operate my own email, as the network gods intended
  
  I want to do it and habe been offputting it because im worried that im gonna fuck something up and bc i dont really know how
- Same. 1€ a month for some local service, hosted in my country, which means they have to abide by EU laws. And also I can actually use their calendar with Thunderbird. Damn google calendar stopped working every update and needed an addon to work in the first place.

"But why would they care about MY data, I don't do anything special"
Anyone outside of tech when I even passingly mention privacy
- It's not only online privacy. Every fucking major intersection in the city has cameras. There are no public places where there isn't a security camera watching. I can't even go to Wendy's without a camera watching me eat.
- It's even people in tech. I work with someone who will gladly take tech claims at face value, and call me a conspiracy theorist on data collection. I said I didn't want a smart thermostat because it increases our attack surface and he immediately snapped back with "oh China is gonna get us". Like... No these things have had CVEs already and will again

I think the funniest part of this meme is every company bar Amazon, Discord (both not in market yet), and TikTok (Chinese) were confirmed to be a part of NSA's PRISM
- graphic design is the NSA's passion
  
  Do they have an opening? That looks about my skill level of web design.

Severely lacking in car company logos.
- Oh, those aren’t gaping Patrick’s mouth…

Stupid question: What exactly are the dangers being implied here? I have accounts with all of these services although I don't use all of them. I know that they are using and selling my personal information, is there more? I have ways of doing things in private when I need and I'm aware that using these services has no expectations of absolute privacy.
- Privacy = freedom. If you don't have privacy, or to the extent you don't have privacy, you are in proportion not free.
  It seems to me this is the trade off we are all figuring out how to make. For example, I've considered not having a cell phone at all, but then I find it almost impossible to get a job, or operate in the economy. So I use a custom privacy ROM. I have no illusions that this is perfect, but at least a step in the right direction.
  I think the most practical answer is to gain knowledge of the situation, and limit our attack surface. I don't think there's any silver bullets, unless you want to live like the Amish (which, doesn't sound like a bad idea, either. If that's what you want and you can do it, go for it.)
  
  what do you mean by free? if total privacy means i can’t have a phone or talk to most people then does that really make me more free?
  i agree that privacy is important, but i think this is fundamentally a legislative problem. there’s only so much that can be done at the individual level without making massive sacrifices and dedicating a serious amount of time to it. i have a vpn, i use content blockers, etc. but i think its too simplistic to say more privacy = more free.
  one of the other commenters mentioned the thing about having someone looking in while you’re watching tv. but if the only solution is to go live in the woods, is it really worth it?
- I like to compare that to a stranger looking through your window while you sit on your couch watching TV.
  There is no harm if the stranger knows how often you scratch your butt or what other information he gathers. But we still would put the afford in preventing that Espionage.
  The thing about the collection of data online is you don't know what's happening to it.
  Will radical groups buy information to categorize people into groups of enemies. Will it lead to false positives during a law enforcement investigation because they subpoena some cunk of information which contained yours.
  This is of course an extravaganted worst case. But it won't get better during capitalism and enchitification.
- Some are selling your data, some are using it internally. Beyond that who knows

Well to be fair even if you go full conspiracy theory or whatever an go insane to the point of blocking everything I doubt you are completely safe from anyone knowing who you are or what you do. In my country a few years back it was a big scandal because the internet ISPs were decrypting trafic and we're knowing everything anyone did on the internet as well as selling that date to ad companies. So I don't really care about this shit anymore cause I already know someone somewhere is already selling my data, I use an ad block just to not be bothered by stupid pop-up ads and that's about it.
- Agree. Full-doomer isn't for everyone. We can reduce our attack surface, but there's no silver bullets. Just using a good adblocker increases privacy quite a bit, and quite frankly makes browsing the web bearable.
  internet ISPs were decrypting traffic
  I always thought it was a little sus that the NSA designed a lot of of the ciphers we use today.
  
  The ciphers are chosen in a competition and then turned into a standard. If you think that the NSA is after your ass there are many ciphers that are not standard and there are ones from non-NATO countries you could use

remember when tumblr wanted to go ferdiverse?

What's the one between TikTok and Alexa and the one below iCloud?
I'm on between 2 and 4 of those hooks (though one is in pretty deep) depending on what those other 2 are. Though I suspect that if I was using them on a regular basis I'd recognize their logos.
- Meta (Facebook)
  And Siri I think

Pretty much agreed, except iCloud allows full E2E encryption if you enable Advanced Data Protection…
Siri is maybe a different story, alas. But at least you can disable the always listening feature if you want.
- Whether Siri actually stops listening or only stops responding remains an open question.

siri? alexa? whatsapp? what?

Much of the obsession internet people have over ""privacy"" is just a feel-good-about-themselves thing, rather than actually protecting themselves from their data being collected and used. If you're posting on the internet, yes that includes Lemmy, there's almost no doubt that any government and world-destroying corporation would have easy access to everything about you in an instant, even if you go out of your way to try to use services "focused on privacy". You aren't protecting yourself from anything by not using Google/Microsoft/etc. products.
There is no "chipping away bit-by-bit" when it comes to this, it's pretty much meaningless unless you're nearly completely off the grid, to the point where you don't even use modern technology. The worst you're gonna do otherwise is fuck up targetted ads, but that's not very hard to do considering Google apparently thought I was a pregnant woman looking for leather boots and beauty products when I still had ads on YouTube.
I wish people would admit it's really not about their privacy. Say it's because FOSS services are better (because they are), say it's so you don't get spam from shitty sites you gave your email to, say it's so you can fit in in your niche online communities, whatever. But 99.99% of people in "privacy" communities haven't even put a dent in the data being collected from them by large entities, hell most people in these communities think VPNs will protect them from anything at all other than their parents or boss not noticing them being on porn sites (VPNs can help with privacy, but only under specific conditions that most people aren't meeting)...
- That's just demonstrably false
  
  Okay then, I'll ask you this. What can you demonstrate that you have prevented extremely large corporations or the government from doing with your information by replacing some of your services with "privacy-focused" services? Do you really think that, say, the NSA and Amazon don't know you better than you know yourself regardless of your efforts? What do you think is prevented by using some isolated services while you still, no doubt, have most of your data being collected and used by other things?
  Could you prove that your life would be any different if, for example, every single piece of information Meta has about you that you don't know they have were wiped off of their servers? Or that anyone here's life would be different?
  The only thing I could imagine you could demonstrate is that targetted ads could be "worse". Which is a non-answer, many peoples' ads are completely inaccurate regardless, and ads aren't such a good metric to base the government's or Nvidia's or whoever's access to your data off of.
  Fact of the matter is is that, unless you're mega-Amish, your efforts to prevent powerful entities from collecting your data are meaningless, they don't work well, and without strong privacy laws it will forever be that way unless everyone suddenly agrees to only use FOSS user-friendly products and all the ISPs are replaced by good guys. I guess some people here have spent thousands of dollars and hours in an attempt to keep their privacy in their own hands in spite of that, so they have to convince themselves it does work... I don't blame them, government corruption & corporatism has made me desparate before too.
- What in the ‘towels-on-mirrors’ did I just read?
- Your comment suggests that it is pointless to avoid tracking. In 2019 journalist Kashmir Hill tried to live without the tech giants and failed : I Tried to Live Without the Tech Giants. It Was Impossible.
  But if you look a bit deeper at this, my conclusion is that it all depends on your needs and your habits. It is quite possible to minimize the amount of tracking that is done.
  And doing so makes me feel a bit more relaxed personally about the surveillance capitalism circus and that is well worth it.

A lot of Siri requests are processed locally, to be fair. And iCloud has encryption now.
- both backdoored
  
  Lol.
  https://support.apple.com/guide/security/advanced-data-protection-for-icloud-sec973254c5f/web
  
  How is the local stuff backdoored?

🤷‍♂️ I value the service over some theoretical harm. Tiktok has never hurt me.
- Every social media platform with a feed uses some system to rank content for its individual users. This can be abused to subtly influence users.
  You say TikTok has never harmed you but the truth is you probably wouldn't know. You just changed your mind about certain things over time.
  That problem is certainly not specific to TikTok and I personally avoid also YouTube, Reddit or anything Facebook but it's not hard to believe that a Chinese or Russian platform is even less hesitant to influence elections, for example.
- It's designed by China to hurt your country in the long run, not specifically you.
  
  I don't think China designed it nor are they the real threat. The problems with Ticktok are the same with Instagram and YouTube
  
  🙄👌👍
- But does it provide good service for you?
  
  Yes.

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