Brought to you by the vertical mouse gang

A cautionary tale if you're considering.
Years ago someone left my employer abruptly, and on their desk was left a fancy vertical mouse. It sat there for a few days, and I kept glancing over, at first ambivalent, but as time passed the temptation increased. I debated the dilemma of becoming a vertical mouse person, was that really for me? Eventually I succumbed and thought hey it's worth a try, see what it's like to be one of them... pure learning opportunity...
Then something happened... I got used to it in about a half hour and in the first day my precision improved. A sudden urge came over me to tell all my coworkers, was I really becoming one of those people so fast? Trying to resist was futile and within a couple days I became a vertical mouse person, always wanting to tell everyone how great they are, constantly resisting the urge. I forgot what life was like with a horizontal mouse, and I never looked back.
- That wasn't cautionary at all it's just a fucking advert.
  
  hail vertical mouse corporate
  
  ;) You'll understand when you use a vertical mouse.
- The Linux of mice

Trackball gang represent
- real mice have balls
  
  Have ball
- All hail trackballs ٩( ᐛ )و
- Any recommendations? I had to swap out my Microsoft Trackball Explorer as it didn't keep up any more.
  
  Ploopy Classic, it's a modern version of that. Open source software (QMK) and hardware
  
  I've been using Kensington Orbit (with scroll) and it's been great.
  
  Recently picked up the Kingsenton Slimblade Pro. Love it.
  
  Elecom
- CST L-Trac enjoyer reporting in! Come to our party, we have custom 3D printed tents and custom additional programmable buttons!
  
  What is a tent in this context?
- I clean mine every 3-7 days. Some times it gathers cat hair (I assume) faster than others.

Thumball with 3D printed vertical stand yes I got asked about it a lot
- I’m getting proud parent vibes from your creation.
- I have that same mouse for work stuff. Care to share the model for printing?
  
  Yeah np
  https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:2684322
  You'll need some kind of grippy stuff on bottom. I used an adhesive rubber mat like this https://a.co/d/g8UqtfV and cut it out or those little stick on rubber feet might work.

As an IT support person, the problem I have with these mice is that the left mouse button is also on the vertical. So when heavy-handed users click on a file in explorer, they also slightly drag down, so the file “disappears” into a folder, and now it’s a support ticket to get the file restored.
Sigh.
- I was remembering just now I used to have one but I gave up on it almost immediately after using irl Thanks for reminding me why I quickly moved on from vertical mouse.
- I feel sick to my stomach thinking back to my IT help desk days.

They are great, but I have two issues with my left handed one:
Right handed people just cannot use it, I can't just give someone else my mouse for a minute.
For some stupid reason, the left and right mouse button are switched, so now I have to switch it back in software, so now the buttons on my laptop touchpad are switched.
- The IT manager at my previous job used this as a security feature.
  People thought that because he was the IT manager he could just get another mouse, so they'd just take his when they left their mouse at home and never return it.
  So he got a left handed vertical mouse even though he is right handed.
  Nobody steals his mouse now because it is vertical and cannot be used in the right hand.
  
  We had a guy learn Dvorak specifically so no one could take his keyboard. Madman or brilliant?
  
  As a left handed mouse user i wouls steal it fir shits and giggles
- I've got a left handed mouse with switched buttons. I'm so used to it now that it takes a good 5 seconds for me to figure out how a normal mouse works.
  
  I've used the standard button layout of a right handed mouse all my life, I'm not suddenly switching now.

i find these WAY more painful to use than a normal mouse, it puts all my weight on that hemispherical bit in the wrist and the angle is just slightly off being the neutral position for my hand so it's instead constantly putting stress on the arm..
i want one that's just slightly more tilted than a normal mouse.
- My Logitech MX Master 2 has a decent amount of angle without being vertical, maybe something like that is what you're looking for?
  
  MX Master is my favorite mouse line by far. Amazing scroll wheel, side scroll wheel, good angle and buttons, and can swap between 3 computers.
  I have my Master 3 set up for my work pc, my Surface, and my editing computer.
  
  that does look good!
- You could also use one of those silicone mouse pads.
- I use this at work because I have a standing desk and was getting wrist pains. Forcing my hand to tilt also forces
  It's a shit mouse on purpose.
  
  You uh, want to finish that middle sentence?
- They're also SOOOO HEAVY, though maybe I've been spoiled by my G Pro Superlight.

Trackball gang.
- Mx Ergo, best of both worlds
- I have a couple friends that play PC games on old-school Trackman trackballs. The amount of griping when we play a game with something bound by default to the mousewheel is INCREDIBLE.
  
  That's like using a Dvorak keyboard and complaining that games default to WASD bindings. This is the exact reason why key remapping is a standard feature on PC games but not on consoles
  
  I've always been curious about this. Do they play FPS games by chance? If so, how's their aim compared to a traditional mouse? I've always had this intuition that it would be easier to aim with a trackball, but I've never gotten one to see for myself.
- Came here to say that

I need me a Logitech G502 hero equivalent but vertical, no way I'm giving up all these extra quick buttons
- Really love the feel of my Logitech G pro tbh. Super clicky, light, and smooth. The texture of the material is great too.
  It's not at all ergonomic bc it is an ambidextrous design but it hasn't bothered me yet and I use my PC way more than I should.
- I'm not sure I want completely vertical on a 502 variant, but angled maybe 30 degrees from where it is and the thumb buttons moved back a hair would be my ideal mouse.
- I'm with you, that or a g903 equivalent. But it has to have Lightning and Powerplay support.

When a mouse and a joystick love each other very much, this is the end result.

trackball gang trackball gang trackball gang
- Touchpad keyboard gang.
  
  If there were a modern version of this with a multi-touch trackpad I might actually consider this.
- I just bought a trackball but it has intolerable sticktion.
  Trackball gang is a lie!
  
  Brand new trackballs can sometimes have some stick-slip. But they "wear in before they wear out" with use. Popping the ball out and cleaning it with warm soapy water and a rinse helps a lot. And whenever the ball feels sticky a wash is in order.
  My current Logi tech ball mouse had a tiny defect in the ball that a minute's worth of 1000 grit wet/dry sandpaper fixed. It's now rolls like it's running on air bearings.
  
  Have you tried cleaning it? If that doesn't fix it then that sucks, I have a gameball and it's smooth as ice.
  
  You just have a bad trackball. My Kensington Expert glides smooth.
- I use joystick

Okay, now what?
- Vertical keyboard
  
  I hate how mechanical keyboards set ergonomics back 30 years.
  Instead of starting with the great ergonomic layouts of MS Natural etc and adding superior switches, mechanical keyboard manufacturers went back to the 1970's with super flat designs.

Even better, join the trackball gang
- Tried so hard, couldn't do it, used them exclusively for weeks and it just always felt awkward.
- Trackballs are the most cultured choice, although I wish I could buy one that's huge like the one on that golf game that used to be in arcades.
  
  Elecom Huge
- 2 weeks trackball. never looking back.
  looking for a work trackball now.
  
  I requested a track ball at work, turns out, they had like 20 of them in some storage room that no one wanted to use. Shortly after I began using a track ball, others also wanted to try it out. Basically my entire department now uses trackballs at work lol
- This is the way.
- Trackball gang, how do you like trackballs for 3D CAD? Are there ones that can interpret three distinct axes of rotation or is everything just using two?
  
  I have never done anything related to CAD, so I have no idea.

I tried and ironically my wrists didn't like it at all.
- I had a chat about switching to a vertical mouse, with the Ergonomist (desk ergonomics guy) at my workplace. I short, he told me that if a regular mouse doesn't cause issues, it's not a good idea to switch. As your wrist and hand will have to adjust to different kinds of loads and movements which can start causing issues.
- I've never tried it but the idea of constantly holding something just sounds like hell for the carpals.
  
  You don't hold them any more than a horizontal mouse

Any suggestions for a good quality vertical? The one the office purchased for me feels cheap and the time-to-sleep is too short(mouse doesn't wake on motion).
- The two I've used are the one in the image (it's from Anker, I forget the model) and Logitech's MX Vertical (they have a second, smaller version if the original is too big). I've been maining the Vertical the past 4 years for work and personal use.
  Both have pros and cons:
  Anker is cheaper. ~$35 vs ~$80. Also has a built in slot to put the receiver in when not in use.
  It curves with your hand more than the Vertical.
  Anker uses easily replaceable AAA batteries. Usually lasted me about 3 months before I needed to swap them. I only used it for work though.
  The Vertical can connect to 3 different devices (1 dongle, 2 Bluetooth) whereas Anker is limited to whatever the dongle is connected to.
  The Vertical is made of better feeling materials; like a rubber for extra grip vs hard plastic with the Anker.
  There's a USB C port to charge its (not easily replaceable) battery.
  Edit: Vertical won't go to "sleep" like the Anker will. If the Anker isn't touched for X minutes, it will go to sleep and you'll have to click one of the switches to wake it. Otherwise moving it won't move the cursor. Not that huge of an issue, but definitely annoying if you don't know what's going on.
  However, there is a design flaw with the Vertical. Logitech run their wireless mice at very low voltage and current to save on battery. That's how they get a 240 mAh battery to last for around a month of heavy use.
  The problem with this is you need to use particular switches, otherwise corrosion starts to build up on the connectors. This corrosion leads to incomplete or missed clicks, phantom double clicks, or it's impossible to hold a click.
  From what I remember, standard switches are designed for 5V, since that's what wired mice normally run at. But modern wireless mice operate around a tenth of that. Logitech never made the switch (heh) to switches rated for that low voltage. At least not when I bought mine.
  My Vertical had that issue. And rather than buy an entirely new mouse, I went in, desoldered the old switches and replaced them with new ones (I think I went with Kale's light blue switches). I did that in summer '22 and haven't had any issues since.
  The rubber material is also showing wear and tear where my fingers sit, but that's just cosmetic.
  I got the Anker one for my mom holiday '22 and she's been happy with it. It helped the discomfort in her hand.
  Both mice improved the stiffness in my right hand, so either one will get the job done. I will also say that there is a bit of an adjustment period. Surprisingly, changing the angle of your hand kind of throws you off and takes some getting used to. Before my office went remote, my coworkers would avoid using it because it wasn't easy for them to switch to for just a short period of time.
  Hopefully this info is helpful. I can try answering any questions you have on them, but those are the only two I have experience in.
  Edit 2: Phrasing
  
  Is it possible to use any of the two wired? Or are there better wired alternatives?
  
  There is a design flaw with the Vertical. Logitech, like with other mice, use the wrong switches in it. The mouse operates at very low voltage and current; lower than what the switches are rated for. This leads to corrosion building up on the metal switches, leading to incomplete/missed clicks, phantom double clicks, or impossible to hold a click.
  Wow that is a major screw up. Probably part of the planned obsolescence though.
- I use the Logitech MX Vertical. https://a.co/d/9eDjEZ8
  Took a little getting used to, but the wrist pain is gone and the mouse is reliable.
- I have a couple of these and like them: https://www.amazon.com/J-Tech-Digital-V628-Adjustable-Sensitivity/dp/B0759V6FZC
  
  I've tried so many vertical mice, but for some reason this one worked out the best for me. It kind of feels cheap compared to others, but I've had it for a number of years and I haven't found anything that can top it. It's worth trying out if anyone is on the fence since it is priced under $20.
- I thought you reached into my brain and posted this for me. 😂 I have exactly the same problem.
- https://sandberg.world/en-us/product/wireless-vertical-mouse-pro
  I use this one, mostly because it was pretty cheap, is wireless and has a rechargeable battery.
  I would splurge a little more now that I like using a vertical one, but I was afraid of spending a lot just to shelve it for eternity like I did with some other devices...

I'm not the only one who sees a shark with its jaws opened, right?
- Yup! But is the top eyes or nostrils? Wait.. Edit. Had to check, yes sharks have nostrils 🙃

so i love my mx master and i use the freewheeling scroll wheel all the time. the mx vertical mouse has a standard scroll wheel :p
- I personally dislike the freewheel scroll overall.
  Then again, the only time I'm really thinking about what features a mouse has, it's for gaming so I like a little more precision and tactile feedback.
  For everything else I do, a mouse is a mouse.
  Unless it's one of those BS apple ones with no right click. Those make me unreasonably upset.
  
  The MX Master is a great mouse, but it's definitely not a gaming mouse. It's way too heavy. I don't game on my PC much, but I'd definitely get a second mouse if I did. As for non-gaming stuff, the freewheel scroll is great for quickly moving through large documents. It's hard to go without it now that I'm used to it, though I had to fine-tune the speed threshold before I could appreciate it
- Logi lift hás freewheeling too

I had constant wrist pain and switched to evoluent vertical mouse in like 2015 and haven’t had pain since. And it’s an added layer of security
- I had the exact same scenario! Just a few years before your issue, I fell and landed on my right hand, straining my wrist. It wasn't broken, but it was really sore and months later it still hurt just as badly, so I went to a doctor. He said the tendons and the sheath they go through were likely inflamed, and all my mousing (both work and home) was probably keeping it inflamed. I switched to the evoluent at work and a Logitech thumb ball at home, and two weeks later I was fine.

Knock over your mouse countless times while moving your arm around.
Still worth it, though.
- I can hear this comment °-°

Move the wheel under the thumb. Until then it's anything but ergonomic.
- If I have to move my wrist,l it's a deal breaker

keyboard, with touchpad fallback when it's absolutely necessary gang
- Mmmm. Maybe but what about scrolling. I bet you cant beat my scrollinh accuracy or speed with a keyboard.
  
  PgUp/PgDown when easily possible to use (the webpage/program isn't crap etc) is very quick. If that doesn't work, i can probably still outscroll or at least match you with two thumb scroll on the touchpad.
  What I'm genuinely not sure about is how healthy touchpaddin' is on the wrist... but i've been doing it for about 25 years without major issues so i guess i at last for used to it.

I saw one an am curious, does it work well with fps games?
- Depends what you expect. On a pro tournament level, nobody will use a vertical mouse. Usually they are a little bit heavier than regular mouses, plus they have a slightly higher center of gravity. This makes them a little bit more "wobbly" during ultra fast movements.
  However, for regular playing, they work just fine. I don't play on pro level, but okay competitive shooters almost daily, and I haven't noticed any real disadvantage. And it helped my wrists enormously, because I'm a full time office worker as well. I decided a couple years ago that the small theoretical disadvantage is not worth the risk of RSI and have been using the cheap CSL/Anker/whatever vertical mouses since. Only very recently I boughta second, regular mouse with more thumb buttons, useful for some sim games I play. I now tend to switch fairly randomly between the two, which probably is even better for hand and wrist.
  Additional info: getting used to a vertical mouse takes much less time than most people expect. Yes, it's weird at first, but start working or gaming and you'll stop noticing the different posture very quickly.
  
  Recently there is actually a mild push for gaming vertical mice so that gap might shorten over time. A friend of mine does Valorant semi-pro and he uses a vertical mouse as well.
- I can't tell any difference with my aim using a vertical mouse, so I wouldn't stress it.
  If anything, it adds a bit of realism cause you hold the mouse at a more similar angle as holding a gun. IMO it's worth it for the strain relief alone.
  
  Yeah, I'm thinking of trying a not so expensive ones first just to get a feel if I'll like it.
- My overall accuracy seemed to be just a little bit better at first, but if you're like me, struggling with severe impulse control and will play games for 10 hours straight some days, it's actually so much better. Your wrist doesn't get nearly as tired and you can make some crazy flick shots really consistently
  You may need to adjust your sensitivity as your wrist is now moving at a different angle
  I moved back to a standard mouse because I like side buttons and I couldn't find any good vertical mice with more the two (at the time, that may not be true anymore)
  
  I saw a some versions with 2 more buttons. They're either above or below the length of the thumb.
- Not in my experience. It's novel for work but once I had it for awhile I went back to another mouse. I don't think they are as useful as others say. Seems more like a preference.
- I haven't tried a lot of those, but it would take a lot of practice to achieve similar accuracy.

How do you grasp it? Do you hold it like a massive cock? A gearstick? A pencil?
- it's like gripping the pistol-style grip on a rifle. benefit: you'll use your elbow and arm muscles more in moving it around, placing less stress on the wrist muscles. It's a much more natural grip.
- More like a firearm. Not that I have handled many firearms.

I really wish, they would release a gaming oriented vertical mouse. High DPI sensor, good clicker switches, etc. Right now stuck with my Logitech lift that tops out at 4000 dpi and has mushy switches.
- Vertical gaming mice are good in theory, but they're bad for aim. Since you're clicking vertically, you actually very slightly move your mouse with each click. It throws off your aim :/
  That and I claw grip too hard to ever get comfortable with them. But to each their own.

Trackpoint gang!
- Trackpoints are great, they're my second choice when I can't use a trackball for some reason. Unfortunately, it's basically impossible to design a split keyboard with a trackpoint.

Been uing them for a long time. But it is really hard to find a good one under 40/50€. Normal mouses have a lot of the goodones in 30€.
- Anker makes a decent one, which can be bought for $20 or a bit less. Should be said it is the only vertical mouse I've used, but it works as a mouse and I haven't had shoulder tension/aches since I started using it.
  
  Honestly, I was, indeed, refering to that one. I dind't know anker was doing one, but it is the same generic that many brands are selling. It's optical and not laser, therefore precision is mediocre and the battery doesn't last too long like the laser ones. Also the construction materials feel pretty bad. I mean, it's what could you expect from a cheap mouse. But again, the normal mouses have much better mouses and with laser sensors for similar prices.

How far have you sent your vertical mouse flying off the desk?
I know you've done it. Right after you typed that thing and went to click that button.
Life is hard for vertical mice.
- I have never done that, actually. My wife, on the other hand...

Yes! The pictured one is a good one too. But currently using the Logitech MX Vertical.

For ergonomics, it's a great office mouse. But just a heads up you're clicking horizontally so you slightly move the cursor every time you click. Kinda bad for gaming.

As a CAD industrial drafter, I approve.

Mice rise up

lol I got the exact mouse in the post right next to me. it was the cheapest vertical mouse I could find and the scroll wheel makes awful skreeching noises. Works perfectly though and the wrist pain is long gone
- same. The battery was shit though, so I replaced it with a larger one

I use a split keyboard and trackball at work, and I thoroughly enjoy the bafflement of my coworkers when they try to use my computer.

trackball

touchpad gang (i cant be bothered spending money)

I have a MX Vertical at work and Logi Ergos (both the 570 and a MX Ergo) at home, they are great. Love the battery life of the MX Ergo, I sometimes forget I even have to charge the damn thing. However I did have to change the main buttons in the MX Ergo, the switch were failing and it ended up double clicking
- Shame about the polling rate on the vertical, looks very jagged on 144hz+ monitors
- Mind if I ask, Where did you shop for the switches
  
  I ended buying Kailh Teal switches on AliExpress. But I also saw Alps switches like the ones Logi uses on eBay

Or use as a buttplug with the same results.
- Chess gang shit

Yay! There are dozens of us! A cheap trackball is one of the best things I have ever bought. No pain, and it is really accurate.
I did have a regular mouse in my pc too so that other people could use my pc without complaining, but donated it to one of the new people at work. But happy, nice mouse makes the day better.

I tried one of these and I hated it.
- Same. I use CAD all day & really wanted to like it.
  
  My two big issues was that gravity was working against my fingers to keep them on the buttons, and also the side of my palm would rub along the surface if the desk as I used it. I had to hold my hand up and in position the whole time instead of just laying it on there like a normal mouse, got hand cramps after one day of using it. Thankfully I was just borrowing it from a coworker who also hated it so I had no investment lol.

If you suffer from wrist or elbow pain from using a regular mouse you’re best off doing strength exercises and proper stretching for those muscle groups. I find that to be more effective than using one of these vertical mice as your issue is likely from muscle overuse. Vertical mice can help but if you’re on your computer all day you’re bound to still have the same issue from overuse of your muscles.
Just my experience tho everyone is different.
- It is a muscle issue. The reason your tendons are over stressed is because the muscles supporting them are also over used.
  This is why when you go to the doctor for RSI the most common treatment is rest AND muscle exercises.
  Strong muscles gives your tendons a break.

I had a thumb trackball for years, miss it tbh.
Edit I've got one in my Amazon basket now.
Edit 2 it's been binned from the basket after reading reviews and now I have a Logitech Ergo coming today

I tried a number of those and couldn't get used to it. I'd get soreness and cramps after the same amount of time but in different locations mostly around the thumb where the skin stretches when you do pistol hands.
In the most recent past I'd been using the elecom huge trackball but it's not without it's issues either. I don't actually recommend elecom they have quality control issues and the deft has the most infuriating mouse wheel. Thumb trackball gave me similar soreness to vertical mouse, and index finger trackball the back of my hand where the fingers attach.
Now I'm using just the steam deck and a Thinkpad laptop lately and those also introduce their own flavour of hand strain after a while.
Apart from the high cost of the hobby, we have reached an era of peak keyboard greatness, but we don't seem have many immediately apparent custom mouse options. Not that I would have any idea what wouldn't hurt me physically. Maybe one of the diy keyboards with a built in trackball.

Thumb ball master race chuckles with amusement as they look down upon this post from Olympus.

I've always wanted one of these. I found one made by Anker for 25 USD. Thank you reminding me
- Honestly I have it and it changed everything for me. Took a bit to get used to (maybe a couple days) but it's so worth it.
  Downside is that the receiver range isn't as far as I'd like it to be.
- It works great, but can eat batteries

I tried it and I got wrist pain that I never had from the horizontal mouse
I guess my body is completely set? (been using a normal mouse for many, many hours since I was 10yo)

I will buy it but this type of mouse is so expensive for me :(
- How expensive is it? I bought one for like $30 CAD
  
  Really?? Last time I checked it was around $100. Then, I will think about it. Thanks
- Weird that this subject popped up. I was looking into this yesterday. As for cost I found a wired model for 13 bucks Canadian.
- I bought a wireless cheap brand one from Officeworks in Australia for $20AUD to see if I liked the form factor.
  I did so I ultimately went and bought my Logitech Lift which has been great for study and general use, although I still go for my traditional gaming mouse over it if I'm gaming.
- They aren't that expensive. There are a lot of good options around $20-$30, even for gaming.

At that point, why not just use a joystick? I guess this would be faster; I assume you still move it around like a mouse you're just holding it like a joystick.
- I wonder how good IntelliJ's support for joystick is.
- Rotating your wrist upward just opens up your arm/shoulder/wrist into their correct positions.
  Wrist-aiming/clicking is bad for you long term, just learn how to use your arm to move the mouse around on a lower sensitivity :)
  
  What's bad for you is incorrect posture and resting your wrist on the desk or a pad while actively using your wrist. If you sit at the right distance and height, you shouldn't be bending your wrist up or down at all.
  Source: Have carpal tunnel and was given guides on proper posture and peripheral use by my doctor.