"There are thousands of volunteers who donated their labour to Duo... Bit by bit all of our work was hidden from us as Duolingo became a publicly-traded company."
fullfathomfive (@fullfathomfive@aus.social)
never give a corporation your labour for free.
People should have known this from the beginning.
These volunteers didn't think about it in these terms.
They gave away their work for free to help people learn languages, and for a long time Duolingo seemed like the best platform for that.
Starting your own platform is much more difficult than contributing to an existing one that seems to be operated with some amount of goodwill...
Poor computer literacy is really biting people in the ass. Quotes like this really stand out to me:
Bit by bit all of our work was hidden from us as Duolingo became a publicly-traded company.
Did you not know that they would be able to do this from the start? Or perhaps you knew and were just being extremely naïve? Either way, not being aware of what kinds of control other parties have when you share data with them is something that's all too common these days. I really wish people would consider the ramifications of what companies can do when you give information like this to them.
Like giving your phone number away for no reason. The moment you share it, you give companies all they need to start spamming the shit out of you (or giving it away to other companies that will happily do it instead). How is a concept like this so hard to understand?
but what if they give you cool digital gems
Yeah, that's an offer a man can't refuse.
woo, shiny. my preciousss
Seriously. I don't know what outcome people expected. Duolingo is not a non-profit, or a community project like Anki. I hope everybody who is surprised by this is receptive to the lesson.
While it is true that corporations are terrible and will do anything in the name of profit, what you guys are saying is “they got fucked and it’s their fault.” It’s not like corporations are some animal who can’t help but be who they are. They are formed by people who choose to fuck other people over for their own benefit. Fuck off with your victim blaming.
Same for people contributing to google maps
New life lesson: never volunteer for a for-profit company.
But then how would spez ever be able to take Reddit public?!
People who keep trying to do Socialism in a Capitalist system are doomed to fail, because Socialism produces enormous surpluses and Capitalists love to just gobble that shit up.
"If peoples basic needs were met nobody would work!"
People "work" all the time of their own accord, we just call it volunteering instead of "work." People love saying "I don't want to work," but really what they mean is "I don't want my economic output stolen from me by my employer while what's left is stolen by ever increasing prices with no wage adjustment to compensate."
Make sure to put anything you want public under the correct license. If a platform doesn't support CC or GPL or MIT, then leave.
EDIT: Or Apache, or IDGAF, of course. ;) But what I would really want is a license that forces your content to remain free, even if used in something else. Basically copyleft: https://www.gnu.org/licenses/copyleft.html
This baffles me. We've seen time and time again that for-profit will fuck you over any chance they get over a dollar if they must, and people still volunteers for them.
I guess that’s the difference between normal people and capitalists.
And yet I am sure everyone reading this comment will leave a rideshare driver review this year or answer a question from Google maps or post information on Faceboot. A policy doesn't mean much if it isn't possible to enforce in a consistent manner.
Yeah dude, leaving a review for a gig worker is totally the same thing as volunteering for a for-profit corporations.
Never ever ever ever ever give your work for free to a startup unless it's running under an open source model that guarantees even if they do go public, all that work remains openly available to everyone!
That's right, never trust a private company that might go public in the future.
That's why you should build your communities on Discord instead. 🤡
That shit is the most infuriating thing ever to me. It seems like so many technical discussions and communities are going to Discord now where that information is not indexed or preserved. How many issues have I had where the answer was sitting on a Discord server that will never appear in any general search result?
Yeah. I've come to believe the problem isn't Discord itself but how people use it. But I totally get your point. So many niche communities. I had to make a Discord account and then someone just fucking answers "!faq" and a bot pastes the answer. Why was that not on their GitHub page? It is what it is.
A Discord server can be created in seconds and can easily have everything they need. I get why they turn to it but it sucks.
Unfortunately, I feel forum communities have themselves to blame for a lot of people not wanting to interact with their forums.
Essentially, there's a level of gatekeeping that existed where if you didn't ask questions the 'right way' or even ask the 'right questions', you would be flamed and potentially have your post deleted. Some of these people actually believe that if they can't answer a question, then it's the fault of the asker and not their own.
Why go through the effort if that's how the community is going to behave? Sometimes, it's more fruitful to say nothing than to tear someone down or give wrong information just so you can contribute something.
Discord is nice because of how informal it is, although it's also getting corrupted by the same autists who need to have everything 'just' their way. (referring to things like forcing people to start threads instead of an open room for questions.)
The worst part is that it is preserved, as long as the Discord channel still exists, but is functionally impossible to find. Because search engines can't index it from the outside, and Discord's search function is just a dumb literal string matcher.
And that won't stop all the regulars in the channel from jumping down your throat anyway because you asked a question that was answered 17,782,169 chat messages ago. Didn't you see it? It's right there. Nestled in between said regulars posting pictures of their cats, or showing off the latest computer peripheral they just bought, or kibitzing about the weather in whatever towns they live in. Interleaved between six separate conversations that were also going on at that time. I mean, duh!
"Just search!" I did, and all the results I got were you guys likewise jumping down the throats of the last 200 people who asked the question before me.
Why discord? Everything on it will be lost without exception. Fuck discord.
It's why they put the clown face emoji at the end. Discord sucks so hard for finding information. The number of interesting projects that exclusively use Discord for their documentation is astounding and frustrating as hell.
I'm all in on Matrix. After hearing the words, "Nobody uses IRC anymore, everyone uses Discord now", I knew we were in trouble.
mIRC for the win.
Sweats in Mozilla
Mozilla is a non profit foundation, the corporation is owned by the non profit and exists for tax reasons only. They're different than a regular corp.
This has been going on for decades. CDDB, IMDB, Redhat.
Anything you volunteer for will be monetized and you will get cut off from your own contributions.
Even here on Lemmy people post Twitter images and Reddit reader apps which only helps those platforms retain mindshare even if they aren't directly profiting with ads.
This is a bit of "no true Scotsman" fallacy. If something you volunteer for hasn't been monetized you can always say 'yet'
FOSS is something people volunteer for and it mostly doesn't get monetized and cut off. Sometimes this means that the original is cut off but a fork lives on, so I would rather say that volunteering for a closed product is dangerous in that regard, not volunteering forany product
This is where licensing is important. If you want to contribute your time to something you think is important, make sure that your contributions are licensed to be open and free.
If a for-profit company violates the license, the contributors can fight back. If there is no license, you're just giving them free labor that they can exploit however they please.
Hashicorp recently commandeered its community built products from thousands of contributors by changing open source projects to an ambiguous if not hostile BSL. Opentofu for any current terraform users out there.
Good callout. Even Twitter images shouldn't be hot linked but copied and pasted for preservation purposes; if a copyright takedown happens, then it happens. But at least we don't risk having access cut because of a corporate killswitch.
It never stops shocking me that people think they can trust corporations which are run by upper middle class entitled business bros who never worked an honest day in their lives.
To be fair every FOSS license will prevent a company from having exclusive rights to use your work. Even if you get a bit lax and include MIT and BSD licenses as FOSS, a company still cannot take your work and stop other people from using it.
In the case of Duolingo, it's pretty different because that volunteer labor output is gated in a proprietary walled garden.
Whereas contributing a patch to chromium for example will never gate that contribution, even if it makes it into chrome and produces millions of dollars of profit for google. You can always and forever freely access and use a version of chromium with your patch as long as there's still a copy left to access.
To be fair every FOSS license will prevent a company from having exclusive rights to use your work
The trajectory for many Foss projects is to get the hardest part off the ground with mindshare and initial development. Then after all the hard work it becomes successful, the project is closed and all new features are added into the closed fork.
Technically you still have the original work but within a few years the project is dead except for your personal work because the main fork has a large corporation behind it continuing the development.
Meh Rehat gets a pass in my mind at least. They give back to the community enough. We are never going to get perfect people or groups. Microsoft is a totally different story.
Oh wow cddb. Completely forgot that was even a thing until just now.
Anyone who has a passion for open source and wants to learn Spanish should check out LibreLingo! It's also a nice project for people who want to contribute to something that is not owned by a company, though it's a bit too early for contributors who have language skills but no coding experience.
Fantastic recommendation, thank you
Any suggestions for other languages? German? Italian?
Unfortunately I don't know of any open source alternative. After another response in this thread I started using busuu.com for French and Italian, and I'm liking it so far. Their business model is pretty transparent, but I find it less annoying than Duolingo so far.
Viel Glück and buona fortuna with your language learning!
I like to use Anki with some shared card decks: https://ankiweb.net/shared/decks?search=german
The learning pattern that Anki has configured by default suites me quite well and the app and the card deck is highly customizable.
Mind you, this is mostly only for learning vocabulary, not for learning grammer.
Thank you for this!
It looks cool, but I can't even sign up for it (infinite spinning loading icon). I did a search and it's been a problem for more than a year at this point, yikes.
And here I am just pissed that Duolingo keeps overhauling their whole program. Like, in less than 2 years time, they've had 3 different versions of the website and of course it wipes out all of your progress and approximates where you may be in their new system. Except the latest. The latest update just wipes all your shit out and says "good luck fuckface!" I've become less and less a fan of Duo over the last 4 years and yeah, not gonna do the AI thing with it anymore. Sari can go on vacation with my one-eyed dog named Max and eat cheese sandwiches for all I care.
I'm still mad I bought the super duo costume which they then completely removed from the app
Yeah, very annoying to be told a word is "new" when I know it well, and vice-versa be expected to have done whole lessons on other words that I've never seen before. That said, not many options for Hungarian, I've only seen Drops as an alternative daily app.
Yea it's become highly enshittified and actively punishes users that don't subscribe. Fuckers.
Can't speak for the entshitification but actively punished unsubscribed users?
I've been using it for two months, learning Germans, I just use Firefox in android instead of the app and I get no ads, only 5 failures but I rarely reach that on a daily basis (I don't want to burnout and I'm pretty sure it's better for learning to not go too fast) and if I ever reach it, I currently have 1k gems. I'm actually surprised at how little use I'd get out of the subscription.
I used Duo pretty solid for two or three years - ended up subscribing to it.
The benefits were negligible - the biggest thing for me was offline play. I used to do a lot of air travel, so the ability to cover a subject or two was super helpful.
The streak freeze was the only other real "bonus" for those who game a shit about it. I started to get quite protective of it when it reached four figures, but I kicked it into touch when I wasn't learning much more than vocabulary. Duo is fantastic for getting a foothold on a language, but it only gets you through the first two or three exchanges of a conversation.
I enjoyed my time with the owl though.
I used it to learn German almost ten years ago and it was fantastic. When I started out you had a limited number of lives, but they realized this was not good for learning and removed it. This lead to me learning German on Duolingo very successfully - my approach was to aim over my competence level, do difficult challenges, and keep at them until I managed to do it right. High paced, challenging, generally fun, and extremely educational.
Then they re-implemented the limited number of lives not to increase educational value, but to punish non-paying users. This means that I have to do the lessons slow, even honest typos are punished so I have to read and re-read whatever I write before I can jump to the next challenge, and I cannot ever challenge myself by going beyond my skill level.
I paid for a year of Duolingo, but it's very expensive, the whole user experience is more annoying to me even for paid users now than it was as a free user in the past, and I don't like the direction the company has taken and I don't want to encourage them by paying for they enshittified service. Had they kept trying to make it better for everyone I would have been happy to pay €5, possibly €10, per month for a few extra premium features.
Right now it does really feel to me like they are punishing their users and creating a bad user experience on purpose.
Fun fact, if you want to bypass the hearts system you can go to Duolingo For Schools and create a classroom with only yourself in it. There is zero verification.
It affects the desktop and mobile app. I think it might also hide ads but I'm not 100% sure about that, it's been awhile since I've used it.
Sure, the punishment for running out of hearts is they send you to rudimentary prison to repeat disheartening lessons.
I haven't figured out the heart refresh - do they give you 5 new ones each day?
The ads are loud and awful and start before you can mute them. Can only skip the last few seconds. It's engineered to be very obnoxious.
They could just have a value added premium but instead they choose to punish.
But good to hear you have managed to mitigate that. Gives me some hope to stick with it, thx.
Gems? I'm out.
I'm contributing to openstreetmap because I think there should be a free alternative to Google or Apple maps.
Am I running the risk of having my contributions stolen?
OSM is run by a foundation - https://www.openstreetmap.org/about
This makes it a lot more difficult to cock it up compared to a shareholder run company.
Open source is a safe bet since anyone can make a new fork(Spin-off) of the original if it went down a direction you didn't like or just wanted to make a version with your preferred features. So openstreetmap is the current safest option since it has an Open Database License.
Here's the summary for the wikipedia article you mentioned in your comment:
The Open Database License (ODbL) is a copyleft license agreement intended to allow users to freely share, modify, and use a database while maintaining this same freedom for others.ODbL is published by Open Data Commons, which is part of Open Knowledge Foundation.The ODbL was created with the goal of allowing users to share their data freely without worrying about problems relating to copyright or ownership. It allows users to freely use the data in the database, including in other databases; edit existing data in the database; and add new data to the database. The license establishes the rights of users of the database, as well as the correct procedure for attributing credit where credit is due for the data, and how to make changes or improvements in the data, thus simplifying the sharing and comparison of data.
Not really , they use the Open Data Commons Open Database License which means it can be used commercial but they have to release changes under the same license.
Mapbox sells your work for a profit.
OSM is the best kind of Open Source.
It CAN be used in commercial products, but any contributions to OSM from those commercial enterprises is still open, so you end up with commercial users contributing to the open system.
I'm in charge of GIS for a city that uses and contributes to OSM and QGIS.
Apple Maps is in part based on openstreetmap https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Apple
They exist, but they often lack the front end polish and they never get the kind of publicity enjoyed by their for-profit peers.
10,000 sentences and OpenWords are others to consider.
Librelingo
Try Language Transfer. It's free and different in how it teaches.
Anki is the best language app I've yet encountered including non-foss alternatives, but I needed to watch their tutorial video to understand the ui. Also it is only a flip-card app, so you might want to complement it with something else.
I still had the app installed on my iPhone because I wanted to learn a new language a few years back. Just recently checked their App Store page and saw extensive data collection, monthly subscriptions and some kind of “gem” currency. Immediately deleted.
They tried to gamify the process, you use gems to buy an off day for a streak
Nothing against gamification, but when they added lives about two years after they said they never will I lost any and all trust I had in them.
It's a for-profit company. The monthly subscriptions are so that the company makes money. The subscription gives you some extra features and removes ads. Seems pretty reasonable.
As for the gems, that's part of the gamification. You get gems just from doing lessons. You can spend gems on cosmetic things or on buying a "streak freeze" that lets you avoid losing your "learn every day" streak if you forget or otherwise can't use the app one day. Maybe you can buy gems too, I don't know, but they don't seem that awful. They're just nudges to try to keep using the app every day, and if your goal is to learn a language that's a good thing, right?
IMO gamification is good. Learning a language can be boring, especially when it comes to grammar lessons. Making it more entertaining means you're more likely to want to do it, so you're more likely to achieve your goal of learning another language.
Having said that, there is definitely enshittification going on. It used to be that the most of the program was available to people without a subscription, and only a few things were "paywalled". Now only the main path of the main course is not paywalled. It used to be that if you got bored with the lessons you were doing, you had alternative things you could do. Even the main lesson plan used to have optional paths. Now, unless you're subscribed the only two options are "stories" or the next lesson in the chain.
Since you took the time to leave such a lengthy response I’m going to reply, although the discussion here is pretty much over.
It’s not the single parts but the culmination of all three points; data harvesting, subscription and paid gems (yes you can buy more). Everyone has to make their own decision but for me it justifies never wanting to have anything to do with a company.
Any advice for an alternative for Japanese learning? I am on a two week streak and getting ready to give up because it's super repetitive.
A friend of mine moved to Japan about 10 years ago and has spent a lot of time solo developing his site, Kanpeki Study, for efficiently learning Japanese kanji and vocabulary in bitesize, daily chunks. I'd be doing all his effort a massive disservice if I didn't mention it - hopefully turns out to be a good fit for you 😄.
Man, that site looks slick as hell. Props to your buddy, if it teaches half as good as it looks he's gonna have wild success! Someone I know was talking about learning Japanese in the last few days so I sent 'em the link. If they enjoy it, I might just buy them a belated Christmas gift of a lifetime account. Cheers for the tip 🙌
Take a look at this guide, it's what I've been following https://learnjapanese.moe/guide/
Essentially, use Anki to study vocabulary in bulk, and use grammar guides like Tae Kim's. And spend a lot of time reading and listening to real native content
It's worth noting that Duolingo has always been considered.very bad by most of the Japanese learning community.
Busuu is fantastic. Gets you to think through the words and gets your feet wet with hiragana/ katakana right away.
Renshuu is Japanese specific and has been really enjoyable for me. Has a community of people contributing fun mnemonics (eg. "WArio's big fat dumpy" for the hiragana of Wa) and a clearly caring developer.
Repetitive yes, but that's the point of Rote memorization. Duolingo should be a tool in the toolkit but not the only one.
I used Wanikani to learn most kanji.. textbooks and actually talking and listening to Japanese ppl for the rest.. still not that good but can converse. Much better at reading. Recommend watching japanese shows w japanese subs once you get to that level.
LingoDeer is the closest alternative to Duolingo, you might want to give it a try
Around when I was getting started with Japanese, I studied around 1k of core vocab with Anki. Not that it wasn't repetitive. The thing with learning language (IMO) is that it's a lot more fun and easy to stick with if you find something enjoyable to practice with. Maybe in your case that's reading really simple stories or something like that. BTW, I'd also recommend Cure Dolly for grammar.
Assimil courses are always a good choice
And the product now is traaaash.
I used to use duolingo to learn every language whenever I visited a country, and I can't use it at all anymore.
As someone who is a current user and unaware of superior options but is curious, what would you recommend?
I likes busuu a lot, felt a lot like old Duolingo, but with more relevant lessons. Duo can introduce potentially unhelpful vocabulary and grammar very early on, and now with the crown system every lesson just feels like pedantic repetition, busuu is fun, properly leveled, and has native speakers, with the Chinese course at least.
I'd be curious to hear which language you try and how it turns out for you since I've only done Chinese so far.
I still use it, and it works great for me. Why do say the program is trash?
I can't stand the new layout with the crowns and hearts. Like you haven't learned something unless you've repeated it multiple times, it's disheartening to spend ten minutes in a lesson and get a nearly in discernible bump in a progress indicator.
And then the heart system is crazy, like you're only allowed to study if you don't make mistakes. That's negative reinforcement and makes the process of learning much less fun.
I can't really progress at the pace I want to anymore, it feels more like a mandated curriculum that only allows me to learn the way someone else thinks I should at the speed someone else thinks I should, which I don't think helps the learning process either.
Also, they've removed all of the fun shop outfits and items I can buy with those crystals, so you get the crystals for no reason, where you used to be able to dress up duo or, I can't even remember anymore, but there were tons of uses for those crystals. So now I have like 10,000 crystals and I can buy streak freezes exclusively with them?
I don't have fun learning with duo anymore, and there are plenty of apps that allow me to enjoy studying and learning at my own pace, regardless of how many mistakes I make in the process.
Oh look, theft that's legally protected because something starts making profit! It's like the existence of the stock market is the central problem with capitalism, since it's just an excuse to be a shitty person and is only ever used in that capacity. "fuck you, i get more money this way" is a dumb fucking principle to operate a society on. Antisocial, in fact. Google's IPO can be directly traced to every single problem the internet (and so, society) has right now.
Capitalism is the problem with capitalism. And It's not an excuse to be shitty, but the cause itself.
Why would you give away your production value to a capitalist for free?
It's literally the only power you hold in the labour market, and it's your own fault if you give it away for nothing.
Yes, how dare you contribute to a community effort.
Wait, isn't the post you just made doing just that?
I wasn't aware that Lemmy is a for-profit enterprise.
Plus, my getting use out of a product and simply by doing so helping the company make money (say by increasing engagement or such), is extremely different to somebody going out of their way to produce work for that company in a way that doesn't directly benefit the producer at all.
Put another way - Am I helping keep my local supermarket in business simply by shopping there? Sure. Would I offer my free time to help clean their store?
Hell. No.
not everyone started as an epic lemmy leftist
Just vote with your dollar, unethical companies always lose market competition ☝️🤓
is there a non-shitty alternative to use that anyone could recommend? would be really interested.
I started looking for alternatives when they added the weird character voices and I started noticing inaccurate pronunciation of kanji in my Japanese course. A lot of people on the message boards recommended Memrise, and it's been great! The official courses contain actual video and audio of native speakers, so I knew for a fact the pronunciation would be correct---even better than the old Duo voices!
There's also user-generated content, too, some of which might not be accurate, but most of the user courses I've found are pretty good. You can even make your own set and publish it.
(I haven't visited the site in a few months, so I can't guarantee it'll be exactly as I found it, but I doubt it has changed much)
And depending on what languages you're studying, you might be able to find some good ones dedicated to your language if you do some digging. For Spanish, I used SpanishDict, and for Japanese, I used Kanshudo (both are freemium, with more restrictions than Memrise)
My library offers Mango Languages.
DuoLingo imo is kinda crappy anyway. Boring, repetitive, and terrible at teaching listening comprehension.
I can give it credit for getting people interested in language learning in an approachable way, but that's about it.
I should have that pikachu face meme handy.
I gotchu.
I mean this is by the guy who brought us CAPTCHA, are we all that surprised? Same playbook, just a different play. Skim some labor off the top.
This is why agpl exists
I like Babel for Spanish.
Anyone know a good app for learning Nahuatl?
I never thought the capitalists would steal my means of production!
Just an aside, since this is Technology, but Duo and Duolingo are two very different things.
Duo is an authentication software company.