Fear Mongering About Range Anxiety Has To Stop — CT Governor Calls Out EV Opponents
Fear Mongering About Range Anxiety Has To Stop - CT Governor Calls Out EV Opponents - CleanTechnica
Fear Mongering About Range Anxiety Has To Stop — CT Governor Calls Out EV Opponents::Several state governors are fighting fear mongering as they attempt to reduce transportation emissions in their states.
I was among those worrying about range until I spent 5 minutes thinking about what I actually do on a daily/weekly/monthly basis.
We'd still have my wife's ICE van, we both work from home, and 99% of the time my work-related travel is local (within 5 miles). My wife's van can pull the camper for our camping trips, or for our longer drives.
I have no good reason not to get an EV for my next car.
I was among those worrying about range until I spent 5 minutes thinking about what I actually do on a daily/weekly/monthly basis.
I was too - that was until this year when I've had to do multiple 800km long trips and I've found out that mentally I can't really do longer than 200-250 km without a 20 min break. With that in mind, most of the EVs would be perfectly fine for me.
This is still a problem when there is not enough charging spots for peak days.
In France most people go to summer vacation at the same time, and on those days when all the charging spots are taken and you have to wait 20 minutes for one of the owner to finish his break it's a real problem.
I would actually consider if you actually need 2 cars at all given your description of the situation. If we're worried about the environment flat getting rid of a car is a bigger win than an EV.
I've very seriously considered that. Right now, we could probably go down to one car without issue. We have two reasons why I'd like to maintain a second, though. We have young kids, and we are already starting to run them around to different places at the same time. We're looking to move soon, and the idea is to move outside of town where we have more room. That would make basically every drive longer, which would increase the likelihood of needing a second vehicle.
Either way, an EV should be fine. Depending on cost, I might stick with a small, used ICE this time, because I don't need much. But I'm not at that point quite yet, so maybe things will change by the time I'm ready.
Genuine question, not meant to be an insult:
If most of your trips are within 5 miles, why would you drive? It seems excessive when you could just walk, or cycle, etc.
If it's work related I'd imagine time would play a big part of it. They're not going to walk up to 5 miles to the client and then 5 miles back. And it's not a good option if they have to take along something big and bulky or if the weather is crap.
Well, I'm in the midwest US, so winter can be a bit harsh for walking or biking (though not this year thus far). Most of the time I drive, I'm dragging kids somewhere. It's inconvenient to walk with them.
I have been walking and or biking when it's just me, and I don't need to haul much. I've lost a lot of weight recently, so I can actually bike to work in the summer and not be a sweaty mess when I arrive, so that's a nice change.
We are taking about moving outside the city to have more space, which means not driving will become less possible for almost everything. Today I have groceries, dentist, and doctor within half a mile, and I've walked or biked to those places many times.
Bottom line, most of the time I'm either dragging kids around or I'm in a rush. Driving is very convenient, and is hard to change.
I'm in the same boat. I make drives that require refueling even if I leave home with a full tank once every other year (Philly to Indianapolis). Even with a very high range EV, that would probably require multiple recharges each way, so that's not a great use case for EVs, but you know what? That's what rental cars are for. I'll happily get an EV for the 99% of driving that I do within three hours of the Philly metro area and rent an ICE car for the at worst annual trip I take that isn't convenient in an EV.
Of course, this is all theoretical for me because I drive a company car and so don't have much choice in my vehicle, and I probably won't have to buy my own car until that job perk goes away.
There’s a demographic of people with their own home, at least two cars, and qualify for rebates, where an EV should be an easy decision
I've had an EV for 9 months now and I've actually experienced far less range anxiety with my EV than with my previous ICEs. This is due to the fact that because I can charge overnight in my garage I almost never leave home without a full battery. Versus before with my ICEs where I'd often be driving across town on fumes because I'd forgotten to fuel up the night before.
I drive in the city/urban areas the vast majority of the time so 200+ miles of range is plenty for my day-to-day needs. I've honestly never run into a situation where I've been worried about running out of juice; I rarely even get below 50%.
As for longer drives, I've done several 600+ mile road trips without issue. Sure, charging takes a bit longer than fueling up at a gas station but the opportunity to stretch my legs, rest in the car, or get a bite to eat does wonders for reducing road fatigue. As for finding charging stations, I'd recommend planning your route beforehand but the charging network is dense enough in my region to where I can usually choose to skip a station if it's too busy and try the next one.
Yup, this is the part people seem unable to wrap their heads around. Waking up with a full battery every morning and never needing to play the whole "I probably have enough to make it to work and back" game is insanely liberating.
This has been my experience too, I've put 90k on my EV in the past 2 years. I've never experienced range anxiety, and I live in Australia which is a similar size to USA and we do regular road road trips of 5 plus hours.
Road trips in EVs are actully more chill because the car informs you where and when to charg and you never wait more than 30 mins to complete a charge, which frankly is how long you should be resting between 3 hour driving stints anyway. Evs actually discourage driver fatigue which has to be a plus no one mentions too.
Every single range anxiety issue I've read about has been from a person who almost certainly doesn't own, and hasn't driven an EV or has some weird preserve petrol agenda.
As a EV owner I don't worry about range that much but I'm constantly infuriated by the shitty charging experience. Charging at home is great but road trips are a constant pain in the ass. Let's face it, most people are not interested in switching to EV at all and will find an excuse until ICE cars are banned (I'm looking at you people with two family cars and private garage). You want to convince the people actually thinking about it? Make charging work.
Yeah my thoughts exactly. My comment was downvoted but said something similar. It's all about charging being too slow, generally incompatible, and there not being enough of them. Once the infrastructure is fixed, acceptance will be much higher. There are so many things to like about EVs. Cheaper maintenance, cheaper operating costs, quieter, less pollution, much simpler design so less likely to break, better handling due to lower center of mass (generally), less consumables (like brakes ... thanks regenerative braking), and darnit just plain fun to drive.
I have to disagree, people like you described are not aware of the charging infrastructure app ridden sign up and reliability bullshit. Fixing that isn't going to make Karen who's never owned an EV buy one.
Your suggestion will only help people who already own an EV and understand the struggle.
I'm saying that Karen will not even consider EV because insert default excuse. People that do consider EVs will investigate the state of the infrastructure a bit and decide to wait. Play store and other pages are full of reviews. Also, anyone riding with me can see it's state. You don't have to own an EV to be aware of the issues.
Where I used to live and work near Hartford range anxiety wouldn’t be an issue. Where I now live and work in Oklahoma it still is an extremely big issue. A friend in CO with an EV wanted to come visit but couldn’t make the drive in one day due to charging options. Hell, if I want to go on a 4 hour drive to Amarillo I need to carefully plan my fuel stops because there’s hundred mile stretches where I can’t even fill up my Ford Focus, let alone charge a Tesla. Range anxiety is a legitimate concern for much of the country.
For much of the country in terms of land maybe, but not in terms of people. Most people live in or near high population areas where using an EV is fine. The person in question saying that fear mongering needs to stop was the governor of Connecticut. Connecticut is not Oklahoma. There is zero reason to fear monger range anxiety in Connecticut.
But even for people in places like Oklahoma, there's a couple things you should consider. First is, don't rush out and buy an EV just because you feel like you're being told to. Only buy an EV once your existing vehicle is no longer viable. Buying a new car when your old one still works is not very green. But definitely consider an EV when the time comes, even if you have range anxiety. Why? For one, the money you will save on gas can allow you to rent a gas car for those long trips you need to make and then you don't have to put those extra miles on your own car. Remember, tires are expensive and wear down with miles driven. Or, with the money saved from gas, you could take a bus, a train, or possibly even an airplane. Or if you really don't want to do any of that, you could probably find a buddy who still has a gas car and trade for the week. Just because you buy an electric vehicle, doesn't mean you are now locked out of ever using a different kind of transportation. But number 2? Over the coming years, EV infrastructure will be constantly increasing. Yeah, some states are being regressive at the moment, but they will turn around. So even in places were range anxiety is legitimate, it won't be a problem for much longer, except in those edge cases where even a gas car currently has issues, but since even a gas car has issues, it doesn't make a difference. And third? There are so many companies working on battery tech right now, it's crazy. Some are working on higher energy density so we can get longer range, others are working on better materials so we can stop using unethically acquired minerals, some are working on making batteries that function better in the cold. None of this helps the car you buy today, but it will help the car you buy in 5 years.
There's a reason I specifically opened with how in CT it isn't an issue before explaining that in the majority of the country (notice I said country vs the population) it still is. Like the CT governor you still seem to not quite grasp the reality of what it is like to live somewhere other than a built up urban area. There are no buses here, there are no trains here. If I wanted to rent a gas car, I need to drive 120 miles to the city because there isn't a rental option in my town (which actually qualifies as a "city". It's an hour drive to the nearest movie theater. While NYC alone has more people than the entire state of OK, there are still millions of people living here that simply can't get by with an EV for day to day lives, let alone if they want to make a trip by any transportation method. Add in the fact that even with current developments and proposals battery energy density is a hard limit of physics and chemistry, unless a completely new method of energy storage is invented it will always be 1/100th of what gasoline has meaning EVs will continue to be absurdly overweight. Don't worry, I'm not in a rush to sell any of my ICE vehicles, at this point I might literally hold onto them forever because there isn't a single car being made new right now that I like better than anything I currently own.
There's no fear mongering about it! I'm anxious about the range of an electric car and not having a quick and convenient way to refuel if I near empty.
Honestly, track how far you normally drive and you’ll see you don’t go that far. My PHEV has a paltry 26 mile range and we use electric only 90% of the time. An EV with 200+ miles wouldn’t be an issue unless you travel for work.
People really like to overestimate how much range they actually need on a daily basis.
I drive maybe 200 miles a week. Almost all EVs could easily get that range in spring/fall. And even in the worst of winter as long as I have 120 volts to keep the battery warm I'll make it through the week no problem.
Honestly big fast charger networks aren't the biggest hurdle. We need basic 120v or 240v outlets ran to every apartment/town homes parking spot. With essentially a trickle from 120v you'll be fine for 90% of your driving needs.
Even when you plan ahead on a road trip there's a pretty high chance half the chargers are down and there's a queue of cars waiting. Made it to the next stop on my last trip with 4 miles to spare. That was a nerve-wracking drive.
Now I gotta check plug share to see recent reviews on stations and decide whether or not to take my ev.
I’m still new to EVs but with the convenience of charging from home, my battery is just never low. Think of it like charging your phone: start every morning with a full charge and you just don’t have to worry about it
(Actually have mine set to stop charging at 80% and I don’t drive much at the moment so don’t plug-in every night)
It’s really the time to refuel. I can plan out spots to charge on a long drive, but if I have to wait that long, I can’t just refuel quickly if I forgot to plug it in last night.
Sounds like you are fear mongering.
From TFA:
While 76% of future EV owners worry about range, nearly 59% of current EV drivers report none.
So 41% of EV drivers worry about it? That's an issue! I'm guessing only 5-10% of ice drivers every worry about running out of gas.
What you're not addressing is that current EV drivers change how they drive, i.e. don't go on the same sort of trips the same way (if the various articles on that site are to be believed). This isn't addressing range anxiety, it's saying plan your trips around charging your car so we work around the problem. And the problem isn't "range" now - it's where are the fast chargers? It's getting better, but it's still hard enough to pull off that there are regular youtube and news articles about the hassles and issues doing a road trip in an EV. No one does the same sort of reporting on ICE because you can find gas stations just about everywhere every 5-10 miles just about anywhere you go, and where it isn't there is some reporting of the signs saying "last gas for 100 miles" or whatever. People know they can find a gas station, even if they're going into a rural area.
some states like Tennessee have removed EV infrastructure the charging stations
how is range not an issue
In your example it sounds more like Tennessee is the issue, not range anxiety. If they were to remove all gasoline infrastructure suddenly ICE range anxiety would be a major issue? No, it is the people removing the infrastructure.
From what I read online, Tennessee anxiety ought to be much more widespread than it seems to be.
If they were to remove all gasoline infrastructure suddenly ICE range anxiety would be a major issue?
Yes... It would be an issue I you had a ICE car and couldn't gas up in some states. That would be something you would have to account for. Same goes for not being able to charge an EV. Doesn't really matter if it's because some asshole did it for political reasons or not when you're stranded on the side of the road.
I drove half way across the country and back last summer in my EV and it was great, except for a couple of the stops being in shady locations.
EV rest stops still have a little ways to go to becoming more convenient, but there is no range issue.
Yup, we did 2 x 5200+ mile round trips this year with zero issues. I think the problem is that people don't like the fact that you actually have to think a tiny bit and plan a tiny bit sometimes instead of just jumping in the car and going until it yells at you to stop and get gas. People in this country, especially the anti-ev crowd, really dislike having to think for themselves.
As someone who has been driving an EV for several years now, it really is nuts hearing people on the internet constantly repeat the same three or four stupid talking points that people with first hand experience have been rebutting for the better part of a decade at this point.
I have owned an EV for a couple years. Range is constantly on my mind. Did we charge it last night? Crap, we had a 70% charge and need to go across town. If we end up running side errands, we may be cutting it close" etc
Far more mental overhead than the combustion engine car we also use.
I ultimately like the EV, but don't pretend that it's biggest draw back shouldn't be a point of discussion anymore.
This is how I feel about the EV range…on my PHEV. We get 40 miles max (30 in the winter) in full EV mode, and so we stress about whether we can get through our daily trips on the battery. (Of course, when our relatively small battery runs out we just use gas.)
But if we had the range that modern full EVs have I cannot imagine having range anxiety on an average day.
Yes, if you cannot charge at home or work, your experience will differ significantly from mine. But if you can, it's a game changer. I feel like this qualification is implied at this point. If everyone with a private driveway and a normal commute went EV, the infrastructure for people in apartments would fall into place as well.
More or less exactly how every major political issue works: people with no or extremely limited personal experience repeating things they've been told by someone in their tribe.
Universal_healthcare has entered the chat.
How about trains? Americans are too used to their cars for those long-range trips. Make them unnecessary. Build out the infrastructure. Have your car for local trips, switch to trains for anything else.
The Biden administration is working on improving train infrastructure but if you look at the map of what they're adding, it's limited to a very small section of the country. I mean, it's like cross country but it's such a massive country that it's still super limited.
Yes, we should invest in trains, but this is not a short or even medium term solution. It's also horrifyingly expensive in many parts of the US, and broad public support simply isn't there. So in the mean time we need to adapt using the infrastructure that already exists.
Years ago, I, a brit, was in Austin Texas for 7 weeks for work. During that time I thought it would good to go see New Orleans. I was like "I'll just jump on a train and read and sleep until I'm there." This what I had done in Europe. I had my error explained. So I drove. I mean, it was kind of interesting to see the different landscapes, but it was also really boring and time consuming. Basically got there, spent a few hours, and had to turn round and drive back.
Why the hell doesn't the US have a passenger train network??
We do, it's just very limited. Actually in Austin I think you could have pulled it off. You could have taken the Texas Eagle to San Antonio, then the Sunset Limited to New Orleans. It would have taken 27 hours and the Sunset Limited only runs 3 times a week, so if you departed Monday at 6:30 pm you'd be in NO Tuesday at 9:40 pm. Bon Voyage!
Just kidding. As a rail fan, it bugs me, too. My wife and I spent two weeks in Germany, visiting multiple cities, and we used a private car once (a relative gave us a ride) and a taxi once. Otherwise it was all trains and the occasional city bus, plus one motorcoach that took us to Neuschwanstein. It was pretty nice.
Ideally I'd like trains for local trips and high speed rail for longer distances. I'd prefer to not own or use a car at all but most cities would have to be torn down and rebuilt to achieve this.
I read the article and clicked through their own reporting on range anxiety: https://cleantechnica.com/2023/07/16/is-range-anxiety-really-worth-all-the-angst/
According to data from the US Department of Transportation, 95.1% of trips taken in personal vehicles are less than 31 miles; almost 60% of all trips are less than 6 miles. In total, the average US driver only covers about 37 miles per day.
it seems to me that this screams out for better shared transportation - If I'm going less than 6 miles, I'd much prefer an Uber or easy subway ride or the like to owning a car at all. However, that's something government would actually have to fund and do something rather than just passing rules on to other people to make happen.
That minor rant aside - I still maintain that the 37 miles per day is a commute and going out to lunch. If we actually wanted to have people change habits in a really useful way - it'd be to start incentivising / mandating telework where possible - stop all the unnecessary car traffic of any kind. You know what's more environmentally friendly than ZEV vehicles? No vehicle (use).
That all said - most people I know buy vehicles to solve as close to 100% of their needs, not 95.1% - because vehicles are so expensive. The range anxiety haven't been about the daily commute for like a decade - even the 87 mile leaf did that fine and most anyone I've ever talked to was perfectly OK if they had the leaf JUST to drive to work and back in the summer / nice weather. Very few people buy a car like that though, because they need to get through bad weather or carry more stuff or people or tow or ...
And then there's the all american road trip. Roughly once a month I go 180 miles one way on a quick trip to see family. They don't have a car charger setup anywhere. I'm not at all sure if they can run an extension cord out, but then I'm on slow charging, and I also drive around while I'm there (unless I asked to use their car for all trips). I'm usually there for a couple days and come back. I have to get gas on each trip. This is not in reality if I had a leaf. If I had a more expensive car it's do-able, but I still would be anxious till there's more "top up" points. I go by probably 20 gas stations I notice on the trip, and there's probably 100+ more within 2-3 miles from the route I take. I know of one charging station.
They have an answer in the article
Plan your route: PlugShare and other apps allow you to determine where chargers are located along your intended route as well as details like the hours they’re open, the cost to charge, whether it’s a public or private facility, and user reviews. It reminds me of childhood trips we took when my parents used Trip Ticks from AAA to determine best roads and attractions. Being organized makes any trip more pleasant, and being aware of possible charging stops ahead creates a sense of calm in you and your passengers.
Yes - plan you trip around your car. I mean, sure, but harkening back to needing Trip Ticks like in the early 1990s isn't exactly a "towards the future" sort of vibe. And they're right - a lot of it is vibe.
Limit your use of air conditioning or heat when possible: So be uncomfortable... I never think about turning on aircon or heat in my ICE car. This is a stupid "fix a perceived problem" statement.
Plan errands to intersect with available chargers Again, live your life around your car - this just is absurd. If I'm planning errands around my transportation, I ought to be able to use public transport and get better returns for the hassle - but I can't because our public transport is shit, and also it's probably not feasible in the vast rural areas of the US.
Stay calm, breathe deeply: According to research in the Journal of Advanced Transportation, range voltage depends on a variety of factors, including emotional type, age, and driving experience, and these factors may influence how susceptible you are to range anxiety.
Yes, get some therapy and Xanax and you too can love the EV.
Ok, but ranting about the sheer stupidity and patronizing nature of the article around range anxiety over - back to the road trip. Many people like to drive to their vacations to save money, especially if they have 3+ people going and would have to also rent a car at the other end of a flight. My next trip is a 900 mile trip over 2 days. With ICE I literally just put it in my GPS and go - no issues because I can stop and get gas ANYWHERE. We're just NOT THERE yet with chargers, and even with superchargers, we're talking going from a 10 minute break to get gas, grab a snack and use the restroom to more like 30 minutes waiting for the car. I don't have issues with planning lunch or dinner around that, IF I could be sure there was a super charger where it makes sense to break.
The thing that's stupid is it's not "range anxiety" really, I have to worry about getting gas and finding a gas station. We just have gas stations already built out and getting gas is a 5 minute process to get another 360+ miles of range. If the charging was close to that to add 360+ miles of range, no one would blink an eye, but instead, it's 30 minutes to add maybe 100 miles of range - which leads to making trips take much longer in many cases. The other anxiety inducing thing is if you run out of gas, AAA can bring you 2 gallons to get you to a station. I haven't heard about the equivalent for EVs yet.
The important thing is - talking down to people isn't going to get them to listen to you. Telling people they shouldn't worry about their yearly or more often road trips because normally they're driving to work and back isn't a great sales pitch really. If I have to rent an ICE car 2 times a year for a road trip, that's at least $1,000 each time, which itself pays for a lot of gas, or 3 new car payments (for most people). It doesn't make people think EVs are cheaper.
Me feeling this way is a problem, because I do think EVs are a good thing, and I really want one, but not for massively more than a direct replacement of my existing ICE car, and not if I have to also maintain an ICE car for trips. One car is cheaper than two to keep going no matter how frugal the second car is.
That is my biggest concern also. I need 500 miles on a charge. I live 200 miles from my family, and will often drive up and back in a day for holidays and birthdays. But I also will drive a state or two away to visit extended family, I am not going attempt those drives with 250 mile range.
Have you looked at where charging stations are? Chances are, there’s a station somewhere along your route. And even if there isn’t, you’re going to someone house? Bring a portable charger and plug in the car.
There are very few places you can’t drive without being able to find a charger if you plan ahead a little.
Edit: Not to mention, how often are you making these drives? You talk as if it’s happening every day, but that’s half your waking day in driving.
Modern EVs charge in less than 15 minutes so.. it’s really not longer than a gas stop, at least not in any situation I’ve been in and I own two gas vehicles and an ev. Like I literally get 200+ miles of range in 15 minutes. Your numbers are just way way way off.
And what in the world are you talking about. 1000 to rent a car two times a year? Where the fuck are you renting from?
I’m sorry but you’re just really really really misinformed here. There are plenty of aaa charging services if you get stuck, but you’re not gonna get stuck cuz EVs are good about letting you know if you’re gonna be in trouble.
I don’t really want to spend the time to refute every point in your post, just seriously, go try renting a modem ev (non-American, American EVs are terrible)
Modern EVs charge in less than 15 minutes so.. it’s really not longer than a gas stop, at least not in any situation I’ve been in and I own two gas vehicles and an ev. Like I literally get 200+ miles of range in 15 minutes. Your numbers are just way way way off.
I'd say the same about yours.
Maybe those binders are correct for you in your EV but not for me with my ICE.
I've never needed 15 minutes to get gas. As long as there's an open pump, if all I'm doing is gassing up, it's 5 minutes, if that.
And I'm getting 400 miles of range for that time.
And I can do that literally anywhere in the entire US. If a town is big enough to have a red light, it'll probably have a gas station within 5 miles.
I like that EVs are a thing, and that they're becoming even more of a thing as time goes on. Someday I'm sure I'll own one too.
But if I need a new car in the next 5 years, I'm not even considering one, and most of the reasons for that are reasons that proponents are acknowledging, even as they're trying to be patronizing and condescending and shaming anyone who points out valid drawbacks.
It's not like people are saying EVs are bad, just that the reality of the situation right now is that, for many, deciding to switch over to one from an ICE will mean, in some ways, changing the ways they live around the limitations and necessities that come with the EV, and that for many, these changes tip the scales away from the EV.
People don't want to accept the changes and added concerns that come with making that switch, and that doesn't make them wrong or stupid or bad.
When EV infrastructure gets to the point where owning, fueling, and servicing one is as cheap, quick, effective, and ubiquitous as owning, fueling, and servicing an ICE vehicle then I'm sure many, many more people will be convinced. Until then, it's less a matter of needing to dispel rumors and more a matter of the technology needing to catch up to the level of ICE.
I only know what people tell me about EVs, I've never had one. You're the first and only person to claim I can charge an EV in 15 minutes. Where can I do that?
The last time I rented a car was in the UK about 2 months ago. It was for exactly 1 week, which is actually a little light for most of my trips in the US, and cost about 1000 GBP before insurance for an automatic (I don't drive stick). In the US, when I've looked up car rentals just now, a fullsize SUV for my road trip coming up, return to the same place, was 1,303.99 before insurance. A Midsize that we'd just squeeze into like my owned Outback was $770 before insurance (on Kyak.com - feel free to point me to better places to search). I'd say that's averaging $1,000.
I'm aware I didn't specify the ICE cars I'm talking about in this post, that was in another one. I'll admit, if I was going to want a Tesla 3 size car (which doesn't work for me for many other reasons), I could rent an ICE for more like $540 before insurance. The reason a Tesla3 size car doesn't work is my road trips are 3-5 people, with luggage for a week or more, plus their hobby large backpacks. We also have a crosstrek and we literally packed it full for 3 people, and the Outback was uncomfortably full with 5 people. So I'd figure I'd need the cargo capacity of a full SUV for 5 and midsize SUV for 3.
Why aren't plug in hybrids getting pushed harder?
On paper they are the best of both worlds. In practice it is the worst of both worlds. Yes range is no issue but you need to go to gasstations and still need to charge your car most places you go if you want to reap the benefits. I honestly prefer non plugin hybrids to plugin hybrids in this regard. But i much rather bite the bullet and drive electric, even if i have to stop and charge on roadtrips. The increase in comfort of electric driving is worth the downside of longer traveltime to me.
And that is from a drivers comfort point of view. Maintenance is the same story. Having all the downsides of a combustion engine in a car that could have been an electric car.
Right, they seem like the gateway car to ride people over until a full EV and the charging networks are more competitive. I would love an EV but they just aren't convenient enough for my work travel schedule. A plug-in hybrid would solve that concern and allow for my non-work driving around town to be electric.
I’m very interested in why an ev wouldn’t work for your work travel schedule.
If you have a place to charge at home, I wonder if you have dated information. I agree this was true 5-10 years ago, but EV is a pretty clear winner now
The irony of using a Bolt EV in the accompanying photograph. A car with some of the slowest DC fast charging, and a battery that’s been reduced to 80% capacity for three years by the company who makes it.
I'd say that just reinforces their point that even "bad" EVs don't have significant issues with range. But yeah, a bit weird to emphasise it.
It's actually a great example.
Bolt has about 250 mile range and it's great for everything not too far, and even ok for infrequent road trips.
And your claim about 80% reduction is false and misleading.
Why do you hate EV's?
I own a fucking Bolt. I don’t hate EVs. It’s difficult to get the advertised range when GM insists on binding it with a software update that prevents charging above 80% as a workaround while they are still sorting out their battery recall years later.
https://electrek.co/2023/06/14/bolt-battery-recall-diagnostics/
Right and for newer vehicles there is a couple of 2020 Bolts and a 2022 Bolt EUV for low $20k or under in my area. If I travel a little bit away from my area I have found 2017 Bolts for $15k.
As mentioned they’re not great for road tripping because of their slow L3 charge speeds, but perfect for me to use for my commute or local-ish running. It or a EUV will probably be my replacement for my ‘08 Rabbit whenever it goes, but I only put on about 3k miles a year on my car soooo it might be a while. I also need to see if i can put a family of 5 in one (reverse car seat, booster, and older kiddo in the back). I think they’ll do it.
Serious Question: Why can't we just have towable generators so EVs can go from an electric car to a Plugin Hybrid for road trips?
Generators aren't very expensive relatively speaking.
Yet I've never heard not seen this anywhere, and seems like a very easy solution to range anxiety.
What if the generator was inside the front of the car - and only turned on when the battery was low? Wait, I've just re-invented the hybrid.
Yeah okay but almost nobody is making Plug-in Hybrids and they cost an absolute fuck ton of money.
You also don't need the generator for 99% of rides so you can remove it to reduce costs.
Look at the new "Ram Charger" that works like you describe. It's 60k and for whatever reason needs a 600hp engine and a full electric engine.
An average EV consumes .32 kilowatt hours of electricity per mile. If you are driving 60 miles per hour, that means you are spending 19.2 kilowatt hours of electricity every hour. So you need a generator that's at least 19.2 kilowatt. Tack on some more because you are now towing the extra weight of a generator and because you are probably wanting to go 70mph and let's just say you need 25 kilowatts. This is what a towable 25kw generator looks like. It costs $22k. I'm sure cheaper ones could be made, but even at $10k, is it worth it? Just buy some plane tickets or rent a gas car for a week or take a train.
https://herogenerators.com/products/25-kw-caterpillar-towable-diesel-generator
I think it's because someone who takes enough Road trips to use something like that would properly just get a regular plug in hybrid. That being said, this might be coming soon for ev trucks actually. The dodge ram ev is going to have a gas powered range extender, and I believe ford has patented a bed mounted version for its ev truck.
Safety as well. Generators are not built for all the regulations the DOT has. It's a different thing to transport a generator and then actually having it fixed to a vehicle as a usable entity.
It's a massive waste of energy. What does a good diesel generator have, like 20% energy efficiency? Not taking into account that you're wasting a lot energy for towing it.
It would also have to be massive.
Why would It be diesel?
Besides what exactly is the alternative if there is no charging location on the way?
Just spend $150/day to rent a car in addition to all other travel expenses?
Probably be more efficient to just have a towable battery you charge ahead of time.
Serious Question: Why can’t we just have towable generators so EVs can go from an electric car to a Plugin Hybrid for road trips?
Lets work through some back-of-the-napkin math here.
Lets say the average speed you're looking to take on your road trip is 50MPH. For that discharge rate you'd need to be able to charge at 50MPH to keep up. That would put you at a charging requirement of 50kw.
Here is a picture of a 50kw towable generator:
This isn't even any of the additional gear needed for DC rectification and power management needed to interface with NACS or CCS.
and seems like a very easy solution to range anxiety.
You can see why this idea doesn't really work then.
This article doesn't really touch on the biggest issue of getting into an EV - the price tag. I mean, $26k to get into an entry-level model? I paid $11k for my SUV, and the only reason I could afford that was due to a pay-out from the company that totaled my previous vehicle. Show me a used EV with towing and storage capacity more in the range of $6k that I can expect to drive for twenty years with basic maintenance and you might get me interested.
Beyond that, they claim that an EV is cheaper to maintain over the years? OK I've been driving my used SUV for 15 years now and I've spent less than a grand on replacing parts (not including stuff like tires that are going to be replaced on any vehicle). My previous vehicle was driven for 24 years and cost even less to maintain because it didn't have 4WD. It looks like within these time periods I would have expected to replace EV batteries several times (most estimates put battery lifetime between 8-15 years), and how much would that have cost? I understand that most people can't be bothered to learn how to perform even the most basic maintenance tasks and believe that you need to buy a new car every 5 years, but I would like to see realistic maintenance estimates for those of us who don't treat our vehicles like a piece of disposable tupperware.
You got your current car for 11k but expext an EV to cost you 6k. Why is that? Shouldn't you expect the EV to also cost in the same range as 11k to make it a fair comparison?
In terms of battery replacement, have you calculated after how many miles the battery replacement becomes "free" because of gas savings? This changes for everyone based on their electricity prices and whether they have solar.
Because I got the current SUV from a dealership with all the attached mark-ups and fees, at a time when similar models were selling used for about half that cost. However because I had the money available I was willing to splurge on getting exactly the one I was looking for. Also, an EV is not an SUV, and certainly not 4WD with the stronger frame to support off-road use, so it shouldn't cost as much. I actually bought my wife's car, a 2006 Murano with 4WD, for $6000 from a dealership, so even that has more capability and probably more cargo space that a typical EV. My baseline is how much vehicle I can get for that price range.
[Edit] Sorry... as far as "free" is concerned, well that never really happens, does it? Yes I could get solar installed on my house, but that costs as much as the car and wouldn't likely get paid off before the car itself fell apart or was hopelessly obsolete. Since COVID I only have to drive in to the office two days a week now, so I'd be lucky if I even put 3500 miles a year on my SUV now, which is around $750/year in gas. A conservative estimate on solar installation is around $15,000 which means I would have to drive the EV and be completely powered by my own solar charger for 20 years to pay off the solar panels, and in that amount of time the solar panels themselves would likely fail from age or hail and need to be replaced (although hopefully the technology would have improved by then). Also note that because of the dense trees in my neighborhood, I'm not even confident I have enough of my roof in direct sunlight to power the house itself. Yeah it's something I've looked in to, and while I could save a lot of money by building the solar installation myself, I'm still not sure I could get enough power even if I cover every inch of roof that sees Summer sunlight for more than a couple hours. Free 'gas' just isn't going to happen unless I cut down my own trees, and convince several neighbors to also cut down theirs.
A used market is mostly a matter of time. There just hasn’t been enough EVs available for long enough to have much of a used market
The older EV models currently in the used market should be avoided. They are mostly compliance cars like the original Fiat 500e and the VW eGolf — slow charging only, small worn out batteries, and little range. Or they are first generation Leaf EVs with failing batteries that are out of warranty or cannot be replaced due to eternal back order at Nissan.
The 2017-2019 Bolts can be a good buy if they’ve already had their batteries replaced under warranty/recall. Decent range and amenities, though some find the earlier model seats uncomfortable.
This next generation of used EVs (cars shipping as new right now) will be great — longer range and faster charging.
Agreed, and there's a LOT of usage in my area so I would expect there to be a decent used market. Unfortunately it doesn't seem to be there yet. I know in time EVs will be as cheap and common as ICE vehicles are today, but personally I feel like currently they are still only available to people with a LOT of disposable cash.
You’re not going to get any ev that’s good at towing, so get that off your list right now. In regards to used EVs for 6k, they’re all over the place. Just look for Nissan leafs or Priuses.
most estimates put battery lifetime between 8-15 years
That’s until it’s at like 85-95% capacity. Ev batteries will last for decades no problem. And if you had that little maintenance on your car then you’re just not taking care of it. Oil literally would cost over a thousand dollars just by itself, so if you’re not replacing the oil you’re irreparably damaging your vehicle. (12k miles a year, replace minimum every 6k miles unless you’ve done an oil test and have a custom timeline, $30-50 each time, so $100 a year minimum on just one thing).
I’m sorry but your numbers just outright do not add up at all. You clearly either abused your car and actually didn’t maintain it, or you maintained it and have no clue the true cost.
You’re not going to get any ev that’s good at towing, so get that off your list right now. The problem is - like in my super long comment down below - It's hard to sell people on go from 1 vehicle that does 100% of my use cases now to 1 vehicle that does 95% of my use cases. This is just inherently a hard sell.
What I do is I have an extra truck for towing, which I rarely need to use - but it's not cheap to do this, and many people can't or won't. But even then, having a "good for commuting only" vehicle is an even harder sell. I know people who do this, but that can be hard to hit IMHO. While all you need and all you miss with towing is... towing, a "good commuter car" might well be something that is small, 2WD, and doesn't really have cargo space or back seats. Many people however have young kids (need pretty large car seats), or want to take 3-4 people on trips, or want to go shopping for stuff and minimize the needed delivery fees, or have bad weather and want AWD/4WD. It's easy to get a truck or SUV that does all of that AND towing, but it's hard to get an economical EV that does all of that minus towing.
The estimates I saw for battery life were talking about replacement time, not just ranging to a minimal capacity. Even discussions I've read on reddit have basically had most people stating that if you buy a used EV the batteries would likely need replaced. I don't have anything to go on for realistic expectations except the statements from people who have owned an EV.
I've been using full synthetic in my SUV, it's good for 20k miles or more so I replace it every couple years at a cost of around $60. So around $450 so far? I changed oil in my old car a little less frequently with plain dino oil, so that was maybe $400 through a lifetime of around 300k miles.
And sure, there are minor costs like replacing the spark plugs every decade, I spent $80 on a new power steering pump for the SUV and I need to pick up a new coolant thermostat soon. I don't remember if I replaced the belt on my truck or my wife's car, and they get new batteries every 5+ years as needed. Oh and I had to replace the transmission on the old car, that cost all of $250 to pick up from a junk yard. So yeah, there's a few other things I didn't add in. Now what kind of maintenance has to be done on an EV, and what kind of prices are you looking at for replacement parts?
Are you comparing cost of used ICE Vs new EV?
I'd prefer to compare used to used, but looking around online at what's available in my area, the cost of most used EVs appears to start around $15,000 for these tiny compact cars that would never be useful to me. The cheapest was a Nissan Leaf for $7500 with a listed range of 84 miles -- hell we couldn't even visit many of our friends in that distance! The more reasonable sized cars (at least judging by the pictures) like a Kia Niro or maybe a Nissan Ariya which have ranges over 200 miles start around $30,000 and go up very quickly from there. So yeah, even comparing used prices puts these vehicles way outside my price range.
Yes they aren't cheap up front but the ROI is good.
The curse and trap of being poor - or Vimes law of boots. If you only have $5,000 to get a vehicle, doesn't matter if your ROI is bad over time, your choice is bad ROI and a vehicle, or no vehicle. I really hope used EVs start to get parity with used ICEs, but I bet that's at least a decade if not two away.
Just adding to that, what required maintenance can you do on an EV?
I can take care of most of the basics like fluid and brake pad changes on my IC car. On an EV tyres are a given, but is there specialised maintenance work that I can't do myself?
Seems like at the very least it would require a different set of tools and knowledge. I can do pretty much everything down to completely tearing down and rebuilding an engine so replacing ball joints or suspension A-frames is easy for me, but I expect that sort of thing to be outside of most people's knowledge. Even so, there's quite a lot that anybody can do to maintain their current vehicle without needing any special knowledge they can't learn in five minutes. What can we do ourselves on an EV to keep the batteries and motor in good running condition, and how would we even know that there's a fault that needs addressed? I can't imagine a cheap EV having a full range of sensors installed, and yet on an ICE you can easily hear or feel when something isn't right with the engine.
Switching to an EV is not "free". You have to do some research, learn some new things and gain a bit of experience. Some people (for example the elderly but also stupid people) will have real issues adapting to new infrastructure. Even more people are simply to lazy to bother, will always see the effort required to switch to an EV as completely unnecessary and will complain loudly when forced to do it. The best option would be probably to wait for "EV first" generations of drivers to simply replace the current ones but we don't have time for it. Other option would be to make the switch completely painless (imagine having a charging plug right next to the gasoline dispenser on every gas station, simply choose from diesel, gas or electric) but we're currently very very far away from this dream. So yeah, the only option is to force people slowly to make the effort and at the same time work on making it easy enough so they don't revolt.
You guys are allowed to leave work?
I have to commute one way 250 kms with one settlement on the way (75 km from one end) for work. There are not many EVs now that I would be comfy making that trip right now (more so after the battery ages a few years, in winter etc.) but their are some. In some countries the range is fine, in cities the range is fine but where I am the range is the major limiting factor. Please don't call market demands "fear mongering" just give me more range.
I don't need any super acceleration or a top speed 2x the speed limit, I want range.
I mean, worst case, just buy and bring a gas generator with you if you think you are going to be reaching those limits. With an EV, anyone can have a plug-in hybrid (albeit much less convenient).
Ehhh. For the range-anxious until charging infra catches up, there can be PHEVs.
I've been excited to have my next vehicle be a BEV for a while now, but having rented a Tesla while on vacation in Michigan (where the infra wasn't exactly good for it) I understand why people might have reservations about jumping in with both feet. Also now that I've interacted with the vehicles and got a better idea of Tesla as a company, I won't be buying one.
For the moment, given my use cases (I periodically have to drive between western WA and central UT) my next vehicle will likely be a PHEV unless there are real breakthroughs in EVs (fuel cells? swappable battery standards?) or charging infra where I need it.
how about evs arnt the fucking solution and build some fucking decent infrastructure
They absolutely are not The solution but even if a gargantuan government project to make America a public transport-first country started today (and god knows the political will is not there yet), people would need SOMETHING to use which isn't as directly awful as traditional ICE vehicles during the many years it would take to switch us over. I want to live in a nearly 0 car world as much as you do and absolutely support political causes which bring us closer to that, but figuring out what to drive on these awful roads we have everywhere is a question that we can't avoid answering.
Even with the absolutely best infrastructure (which few places in the world have because it's really hard to build and maintain) public transport will still mean lower comfort for vast majority of people that use cars now. People in cities with frequent connections and many, well places stops already use public transport. Everyone else will prefer a car as long as they can afford it. People will not choose public transport if it's a bit less comfortable for the good of the planet.
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Household transport is a fraction of a fraction of the states emissions. But hey that cost of living sure is going through the roof, better double the cost of cars to shift internal combustion to remote combustion.
Depending on the EV, the total cost of ownership is cheaper than a comparable ICE vehicle (due to fuel savings, and being mechanically simpler to maintain and repair). I'm pretty sure personal vehicles are the largest source of personal CO2 emissions, since it takes an EV 34kwh to travel 100 miles, and ICE vehicles are 4x less efficient. Pretty sure that would produce more CO2 than a typical household's heating and cooling.
can we just start calling it tardtalk
Range anxiety is basically a myth or at least a real anxiety masquerading as range anxiety. Who hasn't been out on the boonies somewhere late at night running out of gas and wondering if you were going to make it to a gas station ... the real anxiety is refuel anxiety. As soon as universal fast electric charging stations are ubiquitous this "range anxiety" will suddenly disappear. Most ICE cars only have around a 300-400 mile range tops (unless maybe the hybrids) and that is never talked about. It's not range that is the problem.
Heck 95% of my driving would be more than ok with 50 mile range if I could charge at work and it only took a few minutes to charge. An ultra capacitor car would likely fit this bill.
Well dang ... unpopular opinion I guess.
But I stand by what I said. I just want an EV thats cheap with fast & ubiquitous charging. Give me those 3 things and even with crappy range and I'd dump my ICE car like yesterday.
How about lithium fires burning down peoples houses then?
Is this a concern with electric vehicles? I haven't heard of this being an epidemic that we even need to worry about.