Reddit risks losing its identity in pursuit of profits
Reddit isn't profitable, despite having more than 50 million daily active users. In preparation for an IPO, CEO Steve Huffman put the platform's API
Reddit isn't profitable, despite having more than 50 million daily active users. In preparation for an IPO, CEO Steve Huffman put the platform's API
They have TWO THOUSAND PEOPLE working at Reddit and Memmy for Lemmy is a superior product with how many people working on it?? 3?
Spez is an impossibly incompetent Elon Musk wannabe (the person who just flushed $44 BILLION down the toilet due to incompetence). He needs to be drawn and quartered tbh
Elon flushed 44B and made 96B just this half year.
The game isn't right somewhere.
Haha never has been
There's one interesting thought that never comes up in history class...
What happened to the aristocracy?
They didn't give back their land holdings (basically anywhere), they didn't pay reparations, they didn't give up their investments... In some places, they never stopped getting a stipend.
France and Russia. They killed the aristocracy (although others filled the void). In the Americas, if they existed they were killed and replaced with Europeans. In much of Asia, Africa, and the Pacific, locals were raised up to the position.
The US is organized into counties (Counts), territories (Marquis), and states (Duke). There's a couple commonwealths like Virginia too... Why? What does landowners mean? It's all over the constitution. A jury of your peers sounds a lot like a group from the peerage. A redress of grievances from the federal government isn't an option for the common man, but it's in the bill of rights.
When did it end? Because Lord Fairfax isn't a title held anymore, but Fairfax county VA most certainly still hosts the Fairfax family, who are extremely wealthy landlords. They called capitalists who rose up from the common people "robber barons" only a few generations ago... Maybe not because they stole from the people (Carnegie and Rockefeller most certainly gave back to the community), maybe because they didn't come from a certain social class? Name a billionaire or a senator that didn't come from the "I never have to work" class...I can't.
Yeah, the game is rigged. It has been since Rome. The lines have been blurred, but they're still clear if you look for them
FOSS does not have an inherent detriment versus corporate products. If enough people want to do it, development of FOSS can in principle move just as quick or quicker than corporate development (and more efficiently too).
The recent interest in Lemmy, largely thanks to Reddit's incompetence, means that not only is the core software moving very quickly but the app scene is growing quickly as well.
I wouldn't say it's a better product, but it is quicky moving in that direction.
I'm so happy user funded and user controlled is a viable market strategy.
It also works for operating systems ;)
Damn.
Is that 2,000 paid employees or does that include moderators?
Reddit would implode instantly with only 2K moderators. According to this Reddit post, six years ago there were almost 75K moderators working in subreddits with more than 500 subscribers (i.e. this number only includes moderators who actually have to do some work because their subs are decently active). That number is certain to have grown since then.
The "anti evil operations" team is technically paid moderators, but have no idea how big they are.
He needs to be drawn and quartered tbh
I do declare, spoken like true landed gentry m’lad.
How much revenue do you think it would generate if streamed on ThreadsLive?!
If you ask a computer engineer, they would say that’s what you get with and without a product/project manager.
I'm a software dev, I can fairly claim to be a software engineer as well
It's not just having a product owner. We have a parable...
A manager asks a senior dev how long it will take him to build a thing. He says 9 months. They ask how long if they get another couple devs on it - he says 8 months. He asks how long if they add a dozen people, and he says it will never be finished
There's plenty of variations, but it's not a joke - how many people built the Linux kernel? How many built C? How many built Apache, how many built transformers, how many built osX?
The answer to the best technologies is always 1 or 2, maybe with helpers. The more people you add, the harder it is to innovate - you can polish all day long, but 1 sharp person can build something better than a dozen equally sharp people. One brilliant person is more effective than one brilliant person with a dozen helpers
It's all about quality, quantity only weighs down the process
The funny thing is... for me it wasn't even the API changes, it was how Steve reacted to the community feedback. If you need to make your app profitable that's fine by me, but don't ignore your customers so bluntly. They could've easily worked politely with devs to find an agreeable API price, find alternative funding streams for those devs, etc. They did none of that, instead Steve acted like a jerk.
Honestly if they’d worked with the Apollo dev and he’d turned around and proposed something reasonable like $2 a month to continue using it I’d still be on Reddit.
Treating Reddit users like shit, treating devs who have made their whole business about making Reddit better like shit, fucking with unpaid mods, and finally, this weird manifest destiny attitude that Reddit will succeed despite all of the above turned me to the Fediverse.
This precisely. It wasn’t about charging for the API. It was about charging an exorbitant amount for the API, giving devs a tiny amount of time to come up with a solution, and then belittling the user and moderator communities.
I don’t want to be a part of a website that treats its own community with so much disdain and spite.
Switch to Lemmy! Federated social media is
It oozed bad faith. I'm surprised they didn't just say "API is dead, here's a new different product" if they were really eager to charge LLM scrapers the moon for training data, or kill apps.
I suspect someone in legal told them that would be a risk-- if they can't farm out accessibility issues on third party apps anymore, I could see them having ADA compliance issues.
It looks like they took the "constructive dismissal" model-- make it hostile enough that the "voluntarily" abandon the platform. Then it's not Reddit's fault all the apps left, and why they seemed to scramble to find a poster child "accessibility" app and give it a sweetheart deal, so they aren't completely exposed.
100%, I was mad about the api changes but realistically I would have stayed
But seeing the interviews he gave was just too much. Especially when he was talking about monetizing people who say things on Reddit they wouldn't say to their therapist. Like, that group specifically you want to milk? Fuck spez
But seeing the interviews he gave was just too much. Especially when he was talking about monetizing people who say things on Reddit they wouldn’t say to their therapist. Like, that group specifically you want to milk?
Wow, I actually hadn't heard that 🤯 It seems believable based on his other behavior though. It's honestly a shame, Reddit is a cool forum, but it's kind of like a nice restaurant where you know the owners are just awful people... And that really just ruins the experience of being there.
The API change did not affect me personally, I use old reddit anyway, but the reaction showed that he will run this site into the ground since he just does not really get it or is extremely greedy and does not care.
This is the business world in general. Consumers need to say to businesses in no uncertain terms that they cannot just do whatever they want and still remain profitable. Without users, there is no profit. Charging for the API would be completely acceptable and expected, but they decided to go the most cartoonishly villainous route possible. This is what a lot of companies are doing now. They have gotten far too used to the profits being free. We should teach them a lesson, collectively.
I'm 43. I lived a good amount of my life without the Internet and even more of my life without smart phones. Even after gaining reliable Internet access, I remember the times when the Internet was not just a few big companies. I just rediscovered one of the old forums I used to hang out on is still operating. They have an active IRC channel as well. Don't think we can't go back, big tech. It would be so easy to go back. Don't tempt me with a good time.
I remember when reddit gold was there to pay server costs. There was a little bar on the side to show how much % was covered per day. I had it for quite awhile. But then I hit financial trouble and had to cancel. By the time I could afford to give back they got greedy and I couldn't in good faith keep giving them money.
Reddit could have been a non-profit like Wikipedia. But they wanted all the money.
It’s so true! I’d still be on Reddit too. Social media is not that big of a deal in my life. I never imagined having my nerve struck so hard. That I’d delete a 11yr old account. Loosing Apollo definitely would have lowered the amount of time I would have spent on Reddit, but I changed comments, burned my accounts, and did a gdpr request, when I saw Spez’s AMA and he doubled down against Christian. And Christian easily provided the call recordings. That was so terrible. I don’t want to be anywhere near that.
I still haven't fully moved on from it. I'm not sure if I'll delete my account or wipe my comments or not. I don't think it really hurts much to actually have an account registered with them(?)
There's also a fair chance that I've answered some useful techal support, programming guidance, or career guidance questions on there that would be lost to the search engine gods if I wipe my account... And that seems not so great.
He thought he was invincible . He truly had a loyal following. He unnecessarily fucked it up. He could of had it all; everyone was in support until he decided to do what he did
All they had to do was charge relative to the value reddit is providing to said apps.
Instead they gave the "fuck you" price and now theyre not getting any money for their api.
Yeah, we all see his extremely punchable face. Simultaneously blond and ginger and rat-like. It's a big reason I'm off reddit.
Not that you're wrong, but the rodent comparison, in light of reading this on Lemmy, gave me a chortle.
Not that you're wrong, but the rodent comparison, in light of reading this on Lemmy, gave me a chortle.
This is what the API protests revealed as well, as a mod team could decide to go dark without input from its own users
No, just no. Nearly all mod teams had polls about this, and all of those polls with dominating majority selected to shut down. Who is this guy? Is he getting paid by Reddit? If anything the protests revealed that Reddit admins would do anything, including disbanding the moderator teams to bring subreddits back, to suppress protests.
Came here to say the same, it's BS, all mods asked their communities, most with polls, other with closely monitoring feedback in the blackout announcement threads, no mod acted on their own, they were all supported by the overwhelming majority of their communities.
I don’t agree with this at all. I saw maybe 3 polls in total across the dozen subs i was on that blacked out, and they were only up for a few hours max. One got like 60 votes to shut down and then the poll was closed - on a sub with hundreds of thousands of people - and they shut down and said that was conclusive 😆.
Oh well I don’t care anymore, I deleted my 13 year old account with 200k+ karma last night. From now on if I have to go to Reddit it’ll be on a browser with ad block and not signed in.
I'd argue reddit lost their identity days ago. Several iconic communities and features died with the API slaughter. Now it's just another link aggregator without the things that made reddit unique.
Yeah the risk has definitely already materialised. Reddit is forever changed even if it’s still alive.
Can you elaborate on this? Which landmarks have permanently fallen?
I know that Minecraft left. Based on what I've read here recently, the r/android mods moved to the fed as well. BotDefense just closed up shop.
The AMA subreddit mod team gave up on support and recruiting people to give AMAs. /r/pics and /r/videos are gone, almost certainly not coming back. Many companies, like mojang, that used reddit as a semi-official forum have left. Numerous small and medium subreddits have migrated over here. Not API related, but april fools this year was literally just a potato. Other than maybe /r/askreddit, there's not much there anymore that I can think of that still makes it unique.
Not OP, but /r/AMA was one major casualty - mods just basically said F this we're not dealing with this crap anymore. /r/Pics is fighting the admins on the NFSW tag, along with /r/cyberpunk. /r/interestingasfuck was another one.
As a long time ex-Redditor, the impact is definitely felt - it's just become another link aggregator. I no longer feel any attachment to the site, especially after finding the Fediverse a much richer source of intelligent content and commentary.
The blatant astroturfing is what really icked me out. From day one of the API changes, it was clear that Reddit had spun up the spin machine and had begun to misrepresent the issues.
The main one was how they tried to push the "they just want the API for free", "we're entitled to charge for our services" narrative.
I legitimately would've paid for the reddit subscription if it meant keeping Reddit Sync. It's nonsense. They just wanted the apps out of the picture.
My Reddit use has declined 70% because I only access it from my computer or through Firefox for Android (which is damn near unusable).
I would have happily paid $5 a month for baconreader, probably as high as $10.
In both time and quality, I used it far more a month than netflix, hbo, or hulu.
I don't know what it would have cost to keep baconreader active with the API changes, but from what I read the price was intentionally design to be unsustainable.
It wasn't about making 3rd party access to the api profitable, it was about making 3rd party apps go away to push ads and harvest user data.
In the final weeks, myself and many others said we'd be happy to pitch in to keep baconreader alive, and the feeling I got was that just wasn't an option.
Oh well, I'm here now, and can watch the whole mess from the sidelines while getting to be part of a new and growing community, instead of a bloated dying one.
Yes, I loved it when Christian Selig let Hoffman (fuck spez) know his lies were exposed because he (Christian) had recorded their conversation.. and provided proof. Would love a video of Hoffman's reaction.
The narratives you mention in your last para are completely true, that's what annoys me, IF they had engaged in good faith with users. As it is, it's like a shopping centre that's been free to enter saying "right, it's now €100 to enter and any underwear shops are closed to you unless you wear our uniform."
Just completely crazy prices for a poor service. No shit that's unworkable. Just be honest and say you want to bring those users in-house, just fucking say that rather than trying to gaslight everyone into believing that all these competent developers are all unreasonable arseholes who are screwing you, a multi-billion-dollar corporation over.
Yeah that's my point. The fact they were suddenly asking for astronomical fees was conveniently skimmed over in favor of this 'greedy 3rd parties want stuff for free' narrative.
There are probably multiple factors going on. First, there is the belief that you can't take away functionality people already expect. Second, while there would be a number of people willing to shell out money, they probably believed a majority of folks would not. Look at what people are willing to put up with at Facebook. I hate it, but most of my friends and family are on it so I'm there. Third, their backers would never approve because of point two.
There was one comment that really gave me the 'holy shit, ick corporation' reaction... in an article about reddit's traffic going down, a reddit spokesperson said "we do not comment on incorrect statistics from third parties". Like please, calm down, you're not a lawyer for a politician on trial here.
They said this about The Verge. Big "you're liars" energy when journalists reported factually.
Already gone. We Lemmy now.
We Lemmy now. ahu
Qapla'!
True! We just need a few more people from Reddit over here and then the party can really start
Reddit lost its identity a long time ago. It is no longer the place Aaron Schwartz made it to be.
They've already lost their identity. The parties over, spez has turned it into corporate garbage no better than Instagram
Too late for that already right? Just like imgur, correct?
I wish people would stop using imgur. It's entirely unnecessary for posting single images. Also, I use noscript and the number of external websites imgur loads scripts from tripled sometime last year, and now it doesn't even work to display a single image unless you enable who-knows-what sites (most sites, it's easy to tell which ones are necessary - for imgur, it isn't). Even worse it flashes the image and then it disappears without JS enabled for whatever domains it needs. So people using imgur is enabling all sorts of ad tech/privacy invasion companies to track whoever clicks on their photo, for no real reason.
I learned about catbox.moe recently. It's pretty great. Simple interface, uploads up to 200mb, files are kept forever, and when you upload a picture, it gives you the actual direct link to the image; not like every other image hoster that gives you a link to the "image page", then you have to right click on the image and copy the link address to actually get the direct link.
Only thing that sucks is it doesn't strip exif data from the pictures uploaded, but not a huge deal since I just use it for memes and random pics anyway.
Thanks for heads up. Catbox is going to be hosting a lot more from me!
Lemme fix that title, s/risks losing/lost
There ya go :D
I've contributed and made more replies on here than I ever did on reddit in a decade. Feels a bit more genuine and accessible. Also trying to close the door on insta, my only other social. Tired of that shit.
Man, me too, I want to leave Instagram so badly. Not that I'm addicted to reels or anything, I just can't seem to go through with the deletion period. Even as I am typing this, it's on deletion period, and I'm gonna reactivate it again probably. I hate Instagram because it seems fake, people flaunt their lives like trophies and I hate, hate it. And because I am against Megacorps. Fuck Musk and Zuck, and spez.
Do what we did with reddit and switch to pixelfed. Lemmy doesn't nearly have everything that I read on reddit, but it's such a nice habit switch that that is good. It fulfills my desire to read random stuff, laugh and talk to people. I haven't used pixelfed but perhaps it could fulfill enough of what you get from IG to help you break away.
Reddit isn’t profitable, despite having a billion dollars in advertising dollars coming in every year? And someone thinks that spez should remain in charge?
My gut reaction is that a multimedia website the size of reddit must be a juggernaut of server and hosting expenses.
Reddit basically lost any semblance of respect the community should have for it. You know, the people who give them all their content and do all their moderation for free.
Fuck 'em high.
Whatever they've lost, they still retain their hard-earned reputation as being a cesspit of trolls and bigots.
Some troll bigot racist xenophobe ablist literally downvoted my chungus post. Im so done with reddit.
reddit kept the_donald around for years after they helped organize a literal nazi rally. Because they helped organize a nazi rally. Don't pretend reddit hasn't earned it.
I hope lemmy remains unwelcoming to bigots.
Risks? They already have. FUCK Spez & Reddit. The latter had a good run but I’ll be happy to watch it burn as greedy spezbags deserve whatever shitstorm happens next.
The lost this a while back because they wanted to turn into a social media platform like twitter and facebook. It was originally set to oppose those things and we made memes about those platforms and then we ended up becoming one. Will reddit die? No, i dont think so. But just like Facebook i'll just not use it.
This article is mostly useless. It states the problem, but doesn't have anything new to add.
They have a new identity that they keep reinforcing with every new decision. They've lost their previous identity and become just another web service looking to get the most money possible out of the users they can still attract.
Who cares. IT WILL BE MAKING PROFITS!
XD :D
"Risks" assumes it hasn't happened yet, the truth is this happened many years ago.
Reddit has changed more than once. But this is very different. Your comment struck me as cynically dishonest. Almost dismissive of what has brought me and many people to even hear about lemmy let alone discover it even exists.
Nothing like this has ever happened to reddit before. Full stop. To act otherwise shows both ignorance and also insensitivity to the millions of people who feel like they just got evicted from their portal to the rest of whats happening in the world.
Because i can still use reddit if i use it differently, that barrier of usability shows what a vast number of people who use reddit want. Perhaps it also shows how invasive our digital habits have skewed or affected our physical world behaviours.
And perhaps my bias is showing, i have been on reddit for longer than some, if not many, reddit users have been alive.
It was a place i learned a lot about the world around me and now have to try to figure out how to live without it. And im old now. To quote the simpsons "I used to be with ‘it’, but then they changed what ‘it’ was. Now what I’m with isn’t ‘it’ anymore and what’s ‘it’ seems weird and scary. It’ll happen to you!
I think unfamiliar and confusing is more accuarate than weird and scary but it seems a strangely prohetic quote.
Fun fact. I can remember watching the simpsons on a black and white 12" CRT TV (KVOS TV 12)
Im 42
In summary this did NOT happen years ago your truth does not match my reality
I was a Redditor a long time as well, since before the "Narwals bacons at midnight" thing first took off. Ive been on its ups and downs, but usually was like "it's fine i guess", but this last move was I guess the straw the camel's back for me.
I think it hasn’t ‘happened’ or ‘not happened’, I think it began losing its way and losing its identity years ago, but I think what we have seen recently is a big acceleration of that process, and for many the straw that broke the camels back was the recent changes and toxic behavior of the ceo and pr team
I agree that saying ‘risks losing its identity’ makes it sound like it is hypothetical and in the future which is not accurate.
I figure they're trying to say they risk losing their user base, of which they only lost about 3%. But yeah it's identity began to transition to it's lesser form of today when they launched the official app, back in 2016.
It lost its identity a long time ago.
With a wopping 0 apps paying those API prices their profit remains less than 0
fuck u spez !
From the deepest spubby of my heart, fuck @spez@reddit, have fun playing with yourself as all the other kids have left you alone cuz you yank their hair and throw fits
source, idekSooner the better, it might become usable.
Humanity risks losing its identity in pursuit of profits.
Also: Nobody is paying the price and they are losing users(this is also the reason why I came here).
"Risks losing" means the loss has not happened yet. This is inaccurate.
It already did.
Any app that doesn’t have ads is a better product to me
So...every business ever?