Apple has a memory problem and we're all paying for it

Alternate title: Apple charges fortune for underspecced machines, morons still buy them

Please tell me, as someone who has not given Apple money in over a decade, how I am paying for this.

Apple fans will say with a straight face they can't use anything other than a Mac.

Apple fan here, and I love what they’ve done with hardware the last few years. That said…. I have to agree. Base RAM config is silly low, and higher RAM and SSD configs are stupid expensive. It’s a money maker for sure, I wish it wasn’t so obviously a cash grab. I’d be ok with a bit more padding in the base hardware price if the ram wasn’t so expensive to upgrade.

In the old days this was a moot point because you buy base config and immediately swap for after market big sticks- I did that for decades, but these days with soldered RAM and storage…. Eh, it’s a bit of a kick in the balls.

I am stoked for my new M3 next week though, good thing work pays for it!

Imagine if you had to buy it yourself. Really. Screw apple. I'm done with their blatant manipulation and control.
Apple fan here

asking for contempt? ;-)
- Jealousy is more like it. MacOS is amazing.

The closing sentence of the article....

"as Apple customers, we shouldn’t stand for it"

Apple customers....

"Here's my $200"

"we're all paying for it"

Journalism these days is fucking awful

It's from a news organisation called "MacWorld". What were you expecting exactly?
Well I do think the high cost of expansion RAM in Apple products is tied to school shootings, gerrymandering, and the prison industrial complex.
That is in the context of “Apple customers”.

Just a thought.
If I'm being generous, it's macworld.com speaking to an audience of Apple users.

But no, I am not paying for it. I'm over here drooling at M1 chips, but then stopping when I see the baggage that comes with it.
- Ms are only worth drooling over as far as power consumption. Relatively cheap 7840u outperforms M2 in every benchmark. I9s are just in a completely different league.
  
  I'll wait for Snapdragon X Elite from a more reasonable company or a RISC-V chip in a Linux laptop if stars really align.

[...] we're all paying for it

How? How am I paying for Apple's shortcomings?

Well, every competitor to Apple used to have expandable storage on their flagship phones. Removable batteries too that were a breeze to replace if they went bad. They all copied apple, and terrible storage and glued in batteries that are hard to replace is standard now. U have to pay 100 x what a micro SD for the same amount of storage would be, and replacing a battery, while possible to do on your own now requires special knowledge and tools. If you're building your own PC, it probably doesn't affect your PC, but laptops have also followed suit. Glued in batteries/ hard drives are the norm, and it's way harder to modify a shelf model laptop than it was 10 years ago. Apple is the King of enshittification. I'm so tired of companies copying them and all their greedy, customer fucking moves.
- i'm still mad about the headphone jack.
- Modularity/expand-ability comes at a cost. Both monetary cost and performance cost. We used to have gpus with expandable memory but we dont anymore.
  
  Thats because by having the memory integrated into the board, we can put it much closer to the chip, greatly increasing the bandwidth and lowering the latency. This is exactly what Apple has done with its memory and why it isnt expandable anymore. Apple's memory is 5x+ faster than ddr5 in terms of bandwidth. Also you fully take advantage of the entirety of the available memory bus, instead of having empty lanes chilling for potential upgrades.
  
  By having an integrated battery, you can have the battery have all kinds of wacky shapes that fill your design better.
  
  Having a microsd slot takes a lot of space and can result into a significant degraded user experience if the user uses a slow microsd. And even a fast microsd is slower than integrated storage.
  
  All these things are possible but they come with some sacrifices. Part of the change is because of enshittification but some changes is because they make sense.
"We" is referring to Apple customers.
- Yea this is a Macworld article.

Memory is memory. Apple's attempt at branding these machines as "different" as if they were more efficient at using that memory, is absolutely fucking stupid. These Pro machines are used for large file operations like videos, and their response is simply "guess you need to pay more".

I feel like they're trying to get back to the PPC days where generally available parts are not cheap. I hope plenty of cheap alternatives show up on Newegg or wherever. Fuck this bullshit.

Memory is memory

Definitely not true hardware-wise. L2 cache is different from DDR3 RAM is different from DDR4 RAM... in price and performance

Software-wise, yes, the operating system abstracts away the differences and memory is memory

Apple's memory upgrade costs are probably 90% usual Apple bullshit pricing, 10% grounded in reality. I'm thinking that the 10% may be something like the motherboards are designed without memory upgrades in mind, so if you want more RAM, they have to use a special mobo which they prefab less of
- Apple's "memory upgrade" is making the claim that you can do with half for the same amount of work on x86. It is 100% untrue.
  
  You tried to delve into speed. But speed won't outpace a 1TB video file you're trying to edit. If you're working with smaller chunks of smaller files that have fast operations ONLY, then make claim as such. This is a ploy for upgrade cash, plain and simple. Nothing about these chips moves the needle on memory usage BY HALF. What a dumbass thing to assert as a company.
- Memory speed doesn't really matter if your apps start thrashing
  
  Edit: thrashing is very likely to occur on something marketed as "pro". I have a work PC with 8gb of RAM, and my job requires me to edit video. I need to be careful on how big my video files are, because it WILL start thrashing. This is the reality. Professional apps require a lot of memory pages, and they are never open on their own.
  
  Edit 2: I guess the thoughts from a computer scientist are less important than corporate marketing.
- Apple uses a unified memory where the memory chips are embedded on the SoC in the first place. The memory modules are on the same silicon wafer the chip is cut from, not separately on the Mobo, and shared directly with the chip in a single pool of memory that the CPU and GPU can access, rather than dedicated memory for each.
  
  Changing the memory means cutting a different piece of silicon for it.
- I mean why let them bullshit even 10% ?
  
  "There might be some hard to find small benefit here, maybe."
  
  That just sounds like you want it to be true, but deep down you know it isn't.
  
  Shit like this is apple play book from the nineties, especially "we need less ram" and "our clock cycles are better".
  
  It wasn't.

I absolutely love Apple Silicon—the performance to power ratio is wonderful, and the high-speed memory makes things like LLMs work great—but the RAM upcharge is insane, and shipping anything "Pro" with 8GB of RAM should be criminal in 2023.

I really hope that Qualcomm can make some noise with their new laptop/desktop processors. Anything to light a fire under Apple's ass and make them stop skimping on RAM.

I cannot +1 this hard enough. There was once upon a time, back in the Darwin days, when I had my eyes on a Macbook as my next computer. Apple Silicon almost got me there again. I'm itching for a Snapdragon X Elite Oryon OMGLOLBBQ SBC, but I'm not holding my breath. I bet laptop makers snap up all the chips for 2024, and then I get one in 2025.
Which LLM are you running on your macbook?
- Not an LLM, but stable diffusion runs on them.... Very slowly due to extreme swap usage.
I’ve been using an iPad with m1 for a while, can’t wait to get this power on a regular machine… but the ram price makes me want to wait another gen at least.
Microsoft's exclusivity deal with Qualcomm expires soon, so there should be more options coming around. After all this time, RISC will finally change everything (without getting into the technical details of how it did already).

Damn, even my phone got 8GB memory

My phone (pixel 6 pro) has 12gb and it's a 2021 model. It's outrageous a pro laptop only has 8.
- My phone is a Galaxy A52 from 2021. Not even a flagship. It costed me around $500 new.
My phone (Moto G Stylus 5G 2022) costed $300 and has 8GB RAM and 256GB storage

It seemed obvious to me that they do this so that they can say the MBP costs “as low as X”, but in fact everyone needs to pay at least $200 more

I'm not paying for it, I just go to downloadmoreram.com, DUH

I don't pay for the computer, I just go to downloadmorecomputer.biz
- This is the way

RAM is boring... THE FINISH IS TITANIUM!!!

THAT'S LITERALLY OUR ENTIRE MARKETING CAMPAIGN!

We are? Pretty sure I ain't.

Yeah, I'm not complaining either

Yes. Unfortunately people who buy Apple don't care. This is what happens when you prioritise brand and design over functionality. You end up paying more for the brand (worse shit, but hey you can feel good about buying such a great product!).

As an Apple user: I do care. However, the alternative is using Windows, which makes me wanna punch my monitor at least once a month. And I’m not even using it as a primary OS.

I don’t prioritize design and don’t care about brand at all but I care about a frust free experience and I just don’t have that with windows.

Running a hackintosh was less frustrating than using windows on the very same hardware…

If Linux supported the software and the features I need/want, I would very much just use that
- There are things in Mac that also make me want to punch my monitor. No tree view in Finder, so I have to open two windows to copy stuff? No titles in the launcher so I have to scroll over all the windows to find the one I need? It's a nightmare for working with documents. I much prefer windows for that.
- What does Windows do to make you want to punch your monitor?

*fan bois are paying for it

I can't believe that Apple would do this. It's so not like them to cripple great machines with one horrendous bottleneck. Like could you imagine if they released an iMac in 2020 that they sold until the release of the M1 iMac that had a 1TB hard drive in it as a boot device? That'd be insane.

Hah, I just wrote a comment about how they used to ship computers back in the 90's that had resistors in them to make them slower, so they could sell cheaper "budget" versions of their faster computer models.

This is a prime example of how capitalism "innovates".

It's even worse when you consider there's no dedicated video memory, so this is shared between graphics and the rest of the system.

He's paying for it. Many of us don't buy Apple products.

Managed my whole life just fine without ever owning a single apple product.
- back in the day my ipods each died within two weeks (original and replacement), I have not given a cent to this company since then

I recently had to replace my Mac and was not at all happy with the ridiculous 8GB default. Ended up getting my first Windows machine in 10+ years. Same for my sis, she really wanted a Mac but work was only going to shell out $1500. You can get a helluva Windows machine for $1500 (64GB of RAM and 2TB HD). Sure it may not be “Retina” or have an insane color profile, but like great TVs, most people can’t tell unless they’re right next to a superior one.

Having had multiples of windows and linux laptops in the past, I’ve gotta say that one can’t put a price on convenience and UX. I never liked using a laptop, carrying one around, especially working with one, until I ate my pride and tried a MacBook.

This is entirely subjective though. Previously I always compared the specs like that too, but I’ve come to realize there’s plenty more to these products beyond what can be listed in the spec sheet and easily compared like that.

But this is neither here or there, just that your message rang an old bell, and I thought I’d just chime in. I hope you have a great time with the new computers, we humans have different tastes and needs 😌
- Can you elaborate further on the benefits? I have a Mac mini M1, a MacBook Pro M2, a more powerful Lenovo laptop, a more powerful Dell XPS, and a more powerful windows desktop (on paper).
  
  I don't use them a lot, but thus far, I struggle to find any benefit to MacOS. I use them because I have to and, generally, no longer than that. I mean, I might as well use Linux at that point and make my life easier and productivity faster. Mac keyboard shortcuts are an absolute nightmare to me (but maybe I'm just not used to them?)
  
  I must be missing something, because some people swear by them.
I could get a beefy windows machine for the price of my M2 air. I'm a software dev and I've recently switched from Windows 10 box and Linux laptop.

If you look at the other top stories on Technology, you see:

MS mentions pushing AI search to Windows 10

MS asks you for reasons to close OneDrive

For last month, MS was pastering me to create a web account to login to my old win10 machine.

And essentially, MS got me soo tired with all this bullshit, that I've switched to Apple. And the only thing that I have to be aware of, is that it often makes sense to wait before upgrading system version.

I dont't understand how anyone is skimping on memory.... All the memory fabs (micron, samsung, etc)took huge hits this year because of low prices and low sales

Shouldn't companies be filling their devices to the brim with RAM? Is this just greed? What happened to the saying "cheap as chips"?

A lot of people are buying these machines with 8GB or shelling out for the upgrade. Win/win for Apple unfortunately.
- I mean when 70% of the public doesn’t use a computer for anything more demanding than streaming Netflix, office work, and paying bills 8gb is plenty. Sure the base model MacBook Air is still $1000 but for that you get a better screen, an exponentially better operating system than windows, an all aluminum case, and a machine that will still be in good shape 10 years from now. Hell my home computer is a 2014 MacBook Pro and performance wise that thing will still go toe to toe with windows machines built much more recently lol.
  
  Can you get a similarly performing windows machine for less? Sure, if and only if by similar performance you mean you are only looking at processing power. Cuz it’ll be a cheap plastic piece of shit with a clunky os full of bloatware that you have to fiddlefuck around with to get it back to how you want it every time they push out a software update. And you’ll be lucky if it’s still running 5 years from now. Buy a MacBook, take it out of the box, and you’re done. That’s worth a lot to a lot of people.
Yes, it's apple, of course it's greed.

Damn. I wish there was some other alternative

Not that I doubt the power of complaining on a niche social media but… https://www.apple.com/feedback/macbookpro.html Here’s a feedback form if you want to let Apple know it’s too much…

Feedback with your wallet. But that won't happen.
- That’s the case, haven’t bought an mbp in like 7 years, still running smoothly. I’ll buy one when they make memory cheaper.

I doubt the average Apple customer even looks at specs. They just see the Apple badge and are sold.

I buy and use Macbook Pros for work (web dev), and I do look at specs. And yeah, 8GB is ridiculous and the upgrade prices are absurd. Amazingly good machine, though.
- I’m in a similar position but reversed. I’ve worked in various levels of support, almost always on Microsoft systems.
  
  My home setup for automation, streaming media and containered apps is Linux. For personal everyday use I use a MacBook Air.
  
  I’m in the Apple ecosystem because it just works, I don’t have to tinker like I do with Linux, or fix some random new bug or issue like on Windows.
  
  I will say, in 5ish years when my Air starts to lag I’ll probably replace MacOS with Linux and rock that until I absolutely have to replace the hardware. Then hopefully the Framework type setups have grown and I’ll be able to go with something like that.
- You may not be the average Apple customer.
I would hope if your paying over $1,000 on something you do at least some cursory light research on what your buying. That goes for a Cellphone, a bed, drugs, or a macbook.
Worse even. They only look to screen size and how many lenses the phone has. That is enough for them to order the phone without even knowing what is better inside. They don't care as their point is:" if apple made it then it must be faster and I don't care or know how much faster".

I am from a family where everyone uses apple and they are all tech illiterate. I'm the only one with an android as I want my device to be customisable to me.

Nah bro, we are all NOT. I would only touch a Apple product if it had tits.

Unfortunately, Apple's worst habits trickle down to other manufacturers who see what they manage to get away with and start taking notes.
- This is what I worry about. I'd say that people should vote with their wallets, but that doesn't do anything because every manufacturer follows along on stupid trends like this. Hopefully it dies at Apple this time and doesn't spread.
- What apple choices have gone on to affect the PC market?
- My next laptop is going to be a user upgradable one, maybe a framework. Apple can s my d.

laughing from my 64gig 1000 eur tuxedo :p

I'll never understand brand loyalty, for the price of a Mac you can get a machine that's 10x more powerful with the same software being available in Windows.

Except a lot of the software isn't available. There are pros and cons to both. I've done windows, Linux and now I have a MacBook. It's better than Linux and Windows in a lot of ways but also worse in a lot of ways.
It’s about user experience for me. I’m a software dev, I work with linux or unix systems. When i’m home I don’t want spend my time configuring a windows machine with terrible UX. OSX is very well built, built-in basic security, etc. It’s just much less hassle Edit: also, it being a unix derivative, if I need to configure it, i can just use my knowledge from work and not have to look for the usually nonsensical number of checkboxes and menus I have to look for on windiws
- For me, windows is actually a much better user experience for working with MS office for traditional office tasks. I have Macs at home for working with music, pictures, and video. And Linux for my home lab stuff. They all have their niche.
- Do Linux settings translate to osx... At all? I'm struggling to think of any I use across both. Maybe bash.rc?
  
  Osx config is mostly running arcane commands to set registry settings.
  
  I'll never understand people who struggle with windows and like osx. They seem basically identical to me at this point.
You can't get a machine this powerful. Intel/amds laptop chips are blown out of the water by apple silicon. If you try to match all the specs you'll struggle to get many offerings below the price apple charge.
- You can match the performance just fine, it's the performance per watt that's the issue... and AMD's CPU division is not making it easy on Apple (ref AMD promises its new laptop chips will crush the Apple M2 - and it’s got receipts)

I've always been interested in if there were a way to bake more RAM onto these boards. Presumably the pads are there and they're just not populated, so could you make a stencil for the solder balls with a cnc and buy another RAM chip and stick it in to one of those directed heat platforms. Would macos accept that, or would it throw a hissy fit because of miss matched licenses.

Knowing how hard Apple locks down their hardware, I'm sure each RAM module has some sort of signature that disallows this sort of thing.

The person that can somehow manage to successfully fool Scrooge TimCook to download more RAM deserves my absolute respect.

I remember back in the 90's when some Macintosh computers came with resistors making them slower, so that Apple could sell "budget" models of their faster line of computers.

We were savvy and would remove them, but I bet 99% of buyers had no clue and just went along with it.

How did that work? Some kind of jumper that set the clock rate?
- I have honestly no clue, it was a long time ago, but I could imagine many ways a simple resistor could impact overall performance to a very specific degree.

Exactly! I bought the last Mac Mini with upgradeable ram and got it from 8gb to 64gb for less than going to 16gb factory installed would cost me. After this one is done, I'm not sure I can justify buying another one.

I'm not cos I don't pay a fuck to apple, in fact I buy cheap apple shit and resell it to dumb apple lovers Haha.

No, YOU are all paying for it 😏

There's something called "PC"s out there. They can even play games .

Apple fans that would buy this vs Taylor swift fans. Who would win?

Those charts pissed me off. And I'm someone people mistakenly would call a fanboi because I generally love the platforms. Fuck off, Apple.

Yeah MacOS has the best virtual memory system of any major OS (if you’re running Linux try https://github.com/Tookmund/Swapspace, it’s excellent!) so most people don’t care, because they never really run out of memory. But 8GB is inexcusable for a “Pro” product, and their upcharges for RAM are laughably priced.

Edit: I said that MacOS has the best virtual memory system of modern OS’s. I stand by that. I also criticized Apple for their asinine pricing, which I stand by.

I got downvoted for those statements

Let’s compare virtual memory systems

Windows uses a pagefile, similar to how MacOS handles virtual memory. However, when an application needs more memory on the fly, the Windows subsystem throws an out of memory error. You can for loop a try/catch until the pagefile size changes, but if someone has hardcoded the pagefile size in their prefs, or windows hasn’t finished generating a larger pagefile, it will continue to throw a memory error. All windows memory requests are the same, but windows only virtualizes the requests off hardware once the memory pressure is too high.

Linux uses swap. You either have swap partitions or swap files. Both are manually specified in size. If you exceed the size of the swap partition or swap file, out of memory error. That can be avoided by using the software I referenced above, which will generate a new swap file on the fly as your memory pressure builds. Again, Linux allows all memory requests to be on hardware until the RAM is full, and then begins storing memory to swap.

All of MacOS memory is virtualized. Applications requesting real hardware memory are always getting virtual memory pages. As memory pressure increases, so does the size of hyberfil.sys, the Mac pagefile, but applications can request more memory, and get it allocated, with no out of memory errors, it’s seamless. When you know your hardware is running on a fast SSD, you can do that because for most users it’s not noticeable in their day to day activities. But pro users need hardware memory for things like video editing. So MacOS let’s you request wired memory but is limited based on the total memory usage, after you request wired memory, your requests are granted but potentially granted and then returned on request as being passed through to virtual memory, if necessary when the memory pressure is too high.