1y ago

do you think the framework laptop is a good long term investment?

frame.work Framework Laptop 16 pre-orders are now open

Framework Laptop: A thin, light, high-performance notebook that's upgradeable, repairable, and 100% yours. Order today with the latest configuration options.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=u01AbiCn_Nw mental outlaw video:

hi everyone, i was planning on getting a new laptop cheaply for about 500ish but then i stumbled upon this near-totally modular laptop rhat starts out at above 1000 bucks. do you think the cheaper laptop in the long run is just a false economy and i should go for the framework or what? if you want to ask questions go ahead but im mainly concerned about the longterm financials (and how well it will keep up over time)

167 comments

Hi, Framework laptop owner here!
I love my laptop. I got it back in June (13th gen Intel) and have used it near-daily ever since. It's got a nice build quality, I like the way it looks, and the modular slots are a nice concept (though I haven't seen a need to swap out mine- I elected for 2 x USB-C and 2 x USB-A. You also need to pay attention to which ports go where because not all the slots support USB charging). I bought the barebones laptop, and added my own RAM and SSD to it which was significantly cheaper than getting it from Framework. I currently dual boot Linux Mint and occasionally Windows 11 and have had no significant issues with either, but there are a couple of little annoyances with Mint- the light-sensor to automatically adjust the brightness and the brightness keys conflict, so one or the other or both may not work correctly.
To your real question, is it worth it? Honestly, if performance is your sole metric, then no- there are cheaper alternatives out there for comparable performance. The premium you pay for a Framework is an investment in repairability and customizability- investments that may not pay off if the company doesn't exist in the long term. All the promises and commitments in the world to letting users have the right to fix or modify their own hardware mean nothing if there's no one to supply parts. I was aware of this before buying mine, so I was fine accepting that risk- after all, at one point in time Tesla was risky too but now it seems they're poised to be the charging standard for EVs- and there are a couple of higher-ups at AMD who like the concept and are invested in Framework, which means it may be around for a while. But that's still something you should keep in mind.
That said, you said you were looking for a $500-ish laptop, and are now asking about one that will cost you over double that? It's not for me to tell you how to spend your money, but it sounds like you saw a cool idea and want to jump on the bandwagon. You should be extra sure that what you're looking for fits your needs within your budget and you're not just trying to "keep up with the Joneses."
TL;DR: If you have the money, and are okay with the risk of a small company existing long-term, and it has the performance you need, then yes, I think they're good buys.
- investments that may not pay off if the company doesn’t exist in the long term
  FWIW, framework has open sourced all their schematics for building parts for their laptops. So in theory, even if they go under, other companies could continue building compatible parts.
  
  Yep, there is that too. However, I expect that if Framework ever goes under, nobody else would build the parts because there's nothing stopping any other company from making them right now.
- do you need to biy usb c modules as theyre already 4 usb c's built-in. also, how do i check if a memory stick will fit in befroehand
  
  The memory modules are standard laptop SO-DIMM DDR4-3200 for the 13th Gen Intel (though the AMD version launching later this year will support DDR5). The storage slot is a standard M.2.
  Do you absolutely need to buy the USB-C cards? Probably not, since the motherboard connections are USB-C. But you're gonna have four gaps on the bottom of your laptop, it won't be easy plugging or removing cables, and as someone else already said, the weight of a cord will put strain on the slot whereas the expansion cards put that strain on the case itself instead of the motherboard.
  But they're also only $9 each. The laptop itself is $1000+ and you wanna skimp out on $36 for expansion cards? If that's where you're looking at saving money, I'm seriously gonna suggest you look at other laptops that are much cheaper.
  
  Expansion cards: In theory, no, you don't need to buy USB-C modules but it's highly recommended. At the back of each expansion card slot is a fully functional USB-C port that the card plugs into and if you need to, you can plug cables directly into them. But because those port are, as said, at the back of the expansion card slots, this means you'd have to turn your laptop upside down every time you want to plug something in. Also, accessories that are thicker than just a cable with a standard plug (such as USB-C flash drives, card readers, and so on) probably won't fit. Another downside is that having four expansion card sized gaps under your laptop is just ugly.
  I would highly recommend that you pick up at least four expansion cards so all slots are filled. My standard setup is 2x USB-C, 1x USB-A and 1x HDMI. I have another 1x USB-C, 1x USB-A and 1x ethernet in my backpack in case I need to swap something.
  Memory: The type of memory you need depends on the mainboard you choose. The intel ones need DDR4-3200 SO-DIMMs, the AMD ones need DDR5-5600 SO-DIMMs. Note the difference between DIMM (physically larger, for desktop PCs) and SO-DIMM (physically smaller, for laptops). Capacity-wise, they all have space for two sticks of memory with up to 32 GB each. If you're unsure, you can buy framework laptops with the RAM included. It's a bit more expensive than buying separately but you can be sure everything fits.

To be honest you probably won't save money as you'll be more likely to upgrade regularly. I bought my Framework 13-inch last year and already bought a gorgeous new matte screen for it, and I'd been eyeing upgrading the mainboard with the new AMD one now. In the past with laptops I'd hold onto them for years until they couldn't perform, and now I'm considering upgrading my device a second time within only a year?
I really do love my Framework, but the easier upgradability makes upgrading more likely, which means more expenses - unless you can restrain from upgrading more often than you would on a laptop. Since budget seems to be a concern for you this may be worth keeping in mind. On the other hand though, I'd be concerned about how long a $500 laptop will last you anyway (the ones I used for years were more like $1200).
One final thing - some parts can't necessarily be carried over when upgrading to a new generation. For example, to upgrade to the AMD mainboard I'll also have to buy new RAM as the generation upgraded to a newer variant. If I want to use my old mainboard as a home server, I'll also have to purchase replacement parts for what it loses in the upgrade (new hard drive, new expansion ports, cheap case). It's great if you had an existing need for a home server, not so much if you didn't. Since I hate throwing out electronics I'll end up buying more to keep it operational, even though in practice I won't use it very much.
TL;dr - Framework makes upgrading and reuse cheaper and easier, which if you're like me makes you spend more money and upgrade more frequently.
- I mean, this logic could extend to desktop computers, and most people don't upgrade theirs for years on end. But I can definitely see the sheer novelty of being able to do this with a laptop being a motivator...
  
  There is one main difference in this comparison. If you upgrade your desktop consistently, those old parts are valuable on the used market, which can make the upgrades more affordable. Used laptop parts are less desirable due to their inoperability.
- ~~Personally, I'd like a framework with a dGPU option. Nothing big like an RTX 4 series, but just something more than the onboard UHD 630.~~
  Hey, what do you know, there's an option for a detachable graphics module, hell yeah.
- Could you also sell your 2nd hand old main board? That would lessen the blow of a new upgrade (considering you have no need for a home server).
  I have thought about a framework laptop but my laptop is a humongous gaming laptop so I don't think framework has the horsepower I'm looking for. The fact that it's modular is soooooo tempting though...
  
  They have an adapter that turns it into a desktop computer, sort of like an Intel NUC.
  
  It's not a bad option, but probably the best choice would be to just buy a new Framework entirely and sell the old one. Other than other home-labbers I'm not sure who'd be interested in buying a last-generation Framework mainboard, as anyone with a Framework already would likely upgrade to the latest.
  Big laptops aren't really my thing, but you may be interested in the 16-inch Framework that's coming out as it has a slot for a dedicated GPU.
- You could either sell the old mainboard or turn it in to a server imo or if you're really hardware knowledgable take up the challenge of making a discount lenovo yoga book 9i

Hi. Let's set the table here. Context: What future advantage or benefit do you expect to get by investing?
Your budget was initially $500.
The absolute cheapest you can have a brand-new complete Frame Work 16 is $1,621 and 5 to 8 months (Ships Q2) assuming you get the cheapest of everything and don't purchase secondary storage. You will have a low-end laptop with the ability to trivially upgrade it later.
For an additional $1,100 what do you expect to gain? In reality you can get an equivalent performance for $200, so the question then becomes $1,300 for what?
For $2,187 you can have an equivalent to this $1,100 ThinkPad that will likely last you 7-10 years unless it breaks first. What are you investing in for $1,087?
For $2,734 and ~8 months, I can have a high-end laptop, not the most expensive options, but my personal preference to tide me over for 10 years. Is whatever I'm looking for worth $2,200? Possibly.
For hardware I can have schematics to, after signing an NDA.
For hackability.
For a laptop I won't void the warranty for fixing.
For never having to remove 17 screw, 5 stickers, 5 more screws, an excessive amount of plastic tabs, and possibly adhesive.
For almost indefinite access to parts. Parts that won't disappear from the market in 1-3 years, unless the company goes under. (Yay Cali for the 7 years of parts... we'll see how toothy it is and how long it can withstand legal and technical sabotage. Like Apple's software locks.)
For a laptop with parts I like. (AMD open-sourcing like mad-lads, but not quite FLOSSing.)
For a company that I can trust for a decade before they see the dollar dollar bills. Like Google, Facebook, Reddit, etc.
For sustainably sourced parts.
To support a company that won't put me through a hoop circus just to tell me I have to buy a new product because they screwed up?
If I could get it in 30 days, maybe. If I have to wait a financial quarter, or 2, and a half... maybe I'll wait until they ramp up production, and see what innovations they have in a year. (Related: The week I decided to buy, was legitimately the day they opened for Framework 16 orders, which I would've sworn was Framework 15. Must be losing my mind. In any case, maybe I'll still get the 13 and save $500.)
Is it worth it for you? Depends on your financial situation and what you value.
- In theory, you're paying up front for their long-term loss by not driving conspicuous consumption with planned obsolescence. They lose out on at least 4x the cost of selling you entirely new devices every 5 years, and you get a computer that only requires a few hundred in repairs for the next 20 years.
  In reality:
  new standards take hold all the time. Sorry, your laptop takes DDR7 RAM, everyone's moved on to DDR10—which won't cause a noticeable performance improvement, but it will give you FOMO because the numbers are bigger. So we've ceased manufacturing those old DDR7s; good luck with used DIMMs on ebay.
  Startups with amazing business models go under all the time. Sure, it may be "bad market strategy," aka not being money-grubbing scrooges, and the resultant investor pull-out. It might be a lack of hype outside a niche market. It might be a hurricane. Too bad, ypur "lifetime" computer now has no one manufacturing parts. See also: what happens to early adopters of robotic prosthetics.
  Enshittification, plain and simple. That idealistic company that was going to defeat the ills of capitalism by beating it at its own game? Well now the investors want their money, and the shareholders are upset as their stocks plummet. Time to start cutting costs and fucking over the users! Suddenly we're okay with child slavery and nonfree firmware because it doesn't violate our core value of sustainable laptops probably. Have a subscription about it.
  And the longer it lasts, the more likely one or more of the above is to happen.
  If you don't mind that and just want to "send a message," then go ahead. The more viable (profitable) Framework is, the more likely it is others will follow suit.
  If you're really just worried about e-waste and sustainable tech, buy used and fix it up. We're past the point of Moore's law where you're missing out on meaningful performance gains if your device is a few years old, and have you see what people will throw away just because the screen is cracked?
  If it's about ethical business models, support non-profits. They don't have the same financial incentive to enshittify. (They just have their own ecosystem of ethical issues)
  Or get two birds stoned at once by joining/starting a non-profit tech mutual aid network, where you help maintain and upgrade each others' tech.
- apple software locks?
  
  Some parts are now signed and can be associated to the device by Apple alone, so that third-party repair parts or even replaced official parts don't work if the repair is not done by Apple.
  
  I'm an Offical Apple phone repair tech. A lot of things stop working once you place new parts in, things that have even thrown me for a loop and made me think I did the repair wrong. I replaced a display, and the vibration and camera stopped working properly. I thought I damaged the haptic feedback motor (That I didn't even remove) You have to sign into apple's repair website, and 'run a diagnostic' in order to get the vibration function to work again after you swap a part on some models. They all do some weird shit.
  Sometimes swapping a camera on a model will cause the camera in app to run at like 3 fps or Face ID will stop working until you validate the parts on their repair site. It's shit.

framework is VERY worth it.
modular slots on the side mean you can choose your inputs and where they go.
everything inside the laptop is easily replaceable so if any individual part breaks you can replace it instead of the whole laptop. you can also easily make upgrades if better hardware comes out instead of waiting for a newer model if one ever comes out.
- how do the modular slots get inputted? if i wanted a usb a one is it a usb a to c converter and if so wojld i need to buy a usb c slot?
  
  all of the modular slots connect by USB C at the front.
  you can see what they look like here:
  https://frame.work/gb/en/marketplace/expansion-cards
  
  I believe the slots are all USB-C, since they’d need to be the fastest currently possible connector to properly support all the others.
  If you wanted a USB-A slot you just need to buy the USB-A module.

bought a refurbished 5 year old Thinkpad via Amazon for $150. put linux on it, no regrets
- Second hand ThinkPads are the way to go
- I wanna do this and use it for my home assistant server.
  How’d you find it on Amazon?
- what should i look for when buying a thinkpad
  
  A good general rule of thumb is to avoid the E and L series, and stick with the X, T or P series, or the X1 Carbons. Depending on your use case, choose one with the processor and display you want.
  I have a T460 with linux on it that I use for work and it has been rock solid even when I spilled coffee on it.

i was planning on getting a new laptop cheaply for about 500ish
What are you hoping to do with it? I got a used Thinkpad T480 that was like new for €180 and added a couple of upgrades to it (1TB NVMe, 64GB RAM, Intel AX200 Wi-Fi card) that cost me €137, meaning a total of €317, and I'm very happy with the laptop right now, it's very responsive with Arch Linux and an i3 desktop and I think this baby will be good for many years.
- I third that motion. Doing similar with a T440p. I've spent $400 total between upgrading the CPU to a 4712 and putting 16g of RAM. Running WoW happily every night on Debian. Second hand Thinkpads are the way to go.
  
  Congrats on still rocking a laptop that's 10 years old!
- Seconding a used Thinkpad. They are plenty modular/repairable compared to other laptops. I've got an X270 and it's a great little machine.
  
  where do you find used thinkpads online?
  
  I’ve got a X270 and it’s a great little machine.
  Same. X380 here. Cost $200 refurb a yearish ago. Love it so much I steered my mom onto one a couple months back, and she's been loving it too. Manjaro on mine and Win10 on hers, both great little performers. They fall short on tasks you expect to need some grunt for, but are great for everything else. I recommend it for anyone who will listen.
  Having said that, I really am eyeballing the framework to be in the running the next time I'm in the market. Whenever I reach that point I'll need to do some comparisons. I could theoretically be convinced to spend a bit more to enable ongoing piecemeal upgrades, desktop-style.
- whats so good about arch? is it faster?
  
  It's just another distro that has gained a following more because of some perceived superiority than any truly practical reason. If you're new to Linux I wouldn't recommend it.
  
  due to the nature of arch and its rolling releases, it tends to get bleeding edge updates/features rather than having to wait for a major update to iron itself out then get rolled out. If you're a gamer for example, if Valve fixes a bug in the gpu driver, then Arch would probably get it asap (especially given that Steam OS is arch based)
  
  You have the freedom to customize it how you want. The downside is that you have to customize and install everything yourself. A happy compromise is to get an arch based distro which handles a lot of the main stuff, my current favorite is endevour os.
  
  What's good about it is that if you know what you're doing you can install only what you need and keep your system small and tidy. Also, since it's a rolling distro, updates become available really quick and sometimes some of the updates introduce optimizations (meaning more performance) or better power consumption. And finally of course Arch has also an amazing wiki, they have hands down the best Linux documentation along with Gentoo, and they even have a page about Thinkpads: https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Laptop/Lenovo
- Found it! surprised this wasn’t the top comment
  
  there will always be a Thinkpad nerd to do the shilling in a laptops thread, just doing my job 😎
- That's amazing, but not reasonably indicative of the specs we'll normally find for that price.
  
  The specs that I have now are due to the upgrades I've listed: the NVMe is a WD_BLUE SN570 1TB, and the RAM sticks are Patriot Memory DDR4 3200Mhz, both bought new on Amazon, and then there's the AX200 Wi-Fi card that I bought used (you could also spend €5 more and buy it new but I didn't see the point in doing that).
  The base laptop (the one I bought for €180) has an 8th gen i5 and came with 8GB of RAM (single stick), and you can find these specs below €200 on Ebay (very good chance if you also participate in the many auctions that are there, as an example here's one if you're in the US: https://www.ebay.com/itm/266452790554).

i was planning on getting a new laptop cheaply for about 500ish
You should plan for what you need, not for what you're willing to pay. If you need a mobile workstation then this 16 inch laptop would be too large and heavy. If you aim for a desktop replacement, then a 13 inch laptop might be too small (docking stations exist, but still ...).
The Framework laptop is a nice idea, though. But to be honest: how often did you change the components of your laptops before? One usually changes the SSD and maybe the RAM or the battery or - if you're really adventurous - the heatpipe and/or the fan. All of this is already possible with most common laptops. If you're unsure, get a ThinkPad.
- How often did you change the components of your laptop before?
  Well that's the point, ain't it? You didn't because you couldn't. Now this laptop gives you a new plethora of opportunities.
  
  Thought the same thing. Over time I replaced everything in my laptop that I could and specifically chose a laptop that is easyish to open and get parts for.
  I would love for a better processor and graphics card but the mainboard and power supply does not allow for better hardware. So I will need to buy a different laptop some day. If it were as easy as ordering new parts and putting it in there without fear of incompatibility I would love that.
  
  I've changed the screen of a thinkpad from 720p to 1080p. Was cheaper to buy that way, and it was really easy to do.
- I think you're missing the point of the framework. Let's say 6 years from now you want to upgrade to a more powerful CPU. Normally that means buying a whole new laptop. With the framework though you just buy a new board and keep all the other components. This saves money and lowers ewaste.
  
  Is that realistic? Not a rhetorical question: I'm genuinely curious. I ask because the last time I tried to update a single (desktop) part, it was more cost-effective to replace the whole Pc and migrate the salvageable parts since the only thing I could have held onto would have been the ram, SSD, and PSU.
  I suppose with a laptop you have the monitor to also consider, and admittedly I know nothing about laptop boards, but it just seems like 6 years is replacement time anyway, at least for a daily use computer.
  
  Great in theory.
  Keeping backwards compatible hardware is nearly impossible in reality. USB A 3.x is not the same hardware as USB A 2.X despite keeping form-factor backwards compatible.
  Practical exercise: Find a board capable of swapping DDR4 RAM with DDR5 or vice versa.
- It goes a bit further than that. When the CPU is too old and slow you can just slap in a newer board without having to buy a full machine. Still can't answer if it's worth it for OP though.
- ThinkPads continue to be less and less user serviceable and Linux support more quirky (especially on their AMD line). It’s all I’ve used but I sold my recent gen to get an older one and will probably go with a different vendor in the future.

No.
I don't trust a single modern platform to last long enough to justify an investment - the company will be acquired and shuttered or the base platform will be upgraded and the current deprecated. The company today can full-throatedly promise you the world, but they know they won't be here tomorrow to answer for those promises and there are no consumer safeguards in place to hold the future leaders accountable should framework show profit potential and therefore become a target of acquisition to exploit that potential or to squash competition.
Framework is a fun, marketable idea, but Phonebloks / Project Ara me once, shame on you...
- I never really saw a computer as an "investment". They're pure expenses as far as I'm concerned. Any of the ones I buy could break tomorrow. I don't buy extended warranties, so outside the legal coverage, I'm SOL if something goes wrong anyway. Considering how bad repairability is with other brands anyway, it's not like you're throwing away much. Many of the components are just standard hardware, too - RAM, SSD...
  Considering this, I don't really see why I would deprive myself of buying something rather novel I'm interested in, given the product already showed some reliability, in fear of some potential hostile corporate takeover. YMMV, of course.
  
  I agree. $500 to $1200 is the range at which I would not buy a warranty beyond the initial 12 months. I have purchased (and used) warranties for Mac laptops or PC desktops for work that cost over $2k. I can justify it on the Mac because there is usually one recall issue that needs repair (eg weird keyboard issue) but they otherwise have a long life. I’m at 5 years on my current machine with no plans to update. So many of the existing Framework laptops don’t have GPUs that I can’t understand why anyone would be excited about it. It’s a fun idea but feels like you’re paying a lot of money for the opportunity to pay more in the future.
- They've kept up for three generations, I don't see why they'd stop now.
  Even if you just got one upgrade out of it, it's probably worth the cost of entry.
- I appreciate the healthy skepticism of typical business cycles, but at the same time - why would you buy the company and not sell upgrade parts to previous customers? If you didn't, you'd just own an overpriced laptop company amongst a dozen other cheap laptop companies.
  
  To end competition. Brand loyalty. Poor vision. Many reasons, none of them very kind.
  
  As others have pointed out, to kill competition and about paradigm shift. All, from their broken POV, so you can ideally eventually sell cheap laptops/phones shitty enough to warrant annual refresh (aka, the holy grail)
- Huh, that's a good take! Didn't think about that.
  It kind reminds me of the Oneplus brand. I loved the one plus (1) so I bought a Oneplus2 only for it to be put aside fairly quickly. I remember I used to suggest Oneplus to everybody, eventually I told everyone to stay away... Eventually the brand just lost it's focus imo... Instead trying to pump out as much overpriced garbage as possible...
  
  It's a subsidiary of Oppo, they just tried different brands to corner the market. OnePlus attracted the purists but money reigns and they thought they had a loyal fan base and started changing. Most people would probably say stick to pixel phones for the stock Google Android experience. I liked my OnePlus 5, it lasted for a long time. Never smashed despite being dropped all the time. Just the usb c port lost its connectivity after a few years and needed replacing.
- They have been here tomorrow for people who bough one with an 11th generation Intel CPU in 2021. I don't think they are looking to get acquired either.
  
  Companies that are looking to get acquired don't hold press conferences to announce, "we're now ready to be acquired". They typically build and acquire press wins to get attention until they are a thorn in the side of a market leader who then takes a meeting with them. It's a quiet process, but the initial conversation is almost exclusively, "we're building this for the long term and we plan to be around for a long time".
  Just like all the products that promise long or even "lifetime" warranties - for most of these tech startups, they are well aware that lifetime means "OUR" short lifetime as a company and not your lifetime as the consumer.
- Likely, but I'm hoping they last a decade like usual. I'm only slight jaded, and have similar reservations from similar history. Google, Apple, Facebook, and Reddit all had similar ideals. ("Don't Be Evil." Part of open source before it was popular. "It's your data. You control your data." Freedom of speech/information and, "Bits are not a bug.") [Insert Joke: "My back hurts" or "Get off my lawn."]
  The good news is Framwork is priced at near parity of Apple's products, which makes them unlikely to be bought out; they're much more likely to get too greedy, and compromise on their ideals.

For me the deal breaker is to wait for so long before getting it. They have to step up the production. I'm fine with waiting for one month and can understand. But, the actual waiting time is ridiculous.
- I suppose that depends on how urgently you need a new computer. I waited several weeks for one of the first releases, but have been using it the last two years and it has been well worth it. I accidentally smashed the case when it slipped out of my bag on concrete and was thankful I got a framework when I was just able to swap it with a new shell of their marketplace within a week
  
  As I wrote, one month is fine. If it's one or two weeks more, it's ok. But, the actual waiting time is 6 months.
  I get the enthousiast, niche, etc. I'm in niche things too. But, at a certain moment, you need to step up.

I'm seriously thinking about investing in one..I really like the idea of being able to upgrade and change the system and I/O ports. I also am beginning to think I want to switch to Linux over Windows as it gets more and more invasive.
For 1600 hopefully you get a frame and a long term use repairable machine you can upgrade as needed for years.

I'm interested in a framework laptop for the environmental perspective, but I also think a pre-owned high end device would be faster and with smaller impact.
- This question comes up for me quite a bit. It's great that project like this exist, but if the project fails, does the environmental impact of the parts become just as bad as any other electronic device because there's no longer a project coordinating the manufacturing of replacement parts?
  Additionally, refurbished Lenovo Thinkpads, while obviously not nearly as customizable/modifiable, may (emphasis on may) have a longer shelf life due to build quality (as well as general care and maintenance by the user), and are probably easily repairable by hardware repair shops.
  Environmental Impact, Longevity, and Cost should be the major priorities for the conscientious discerning tech consumer, and imho in that specific order.
  
  In my opinion, the Framework laptop is great for people who want the newest and fastest CPUs, whule also getting the customizability and repairability. I mean yeah, I'd buy an older Thinkpad, but programming in C doesn't require much compute power or RAM. However, my graphic design and video editor friends won't make a living using the same machine as I do. For them, the Framework is miles better than any other brand new machine with the same specs (if they want repairability, etc.).
  
  The environmental impact of the parts is already just as bad as any other laptop.
  Pollution happens at the point of production!
  If a person were worried about the environmental impact, a glass and aluminum mac would be the better choice. Replacing a bunch of plastic with easily and efficiently recyclable metal and glass has a huge impact.

You can look online at what the upgrade parts cost. If you were upgrading to the AMD main board you're looking at $450-$700, versus $1200-1550 buying it new. The Intel i5 components are similar but i7 are a bit more expensive. Thus far they have been consistent about releasing upgraded components. You are locked in to buying from them though - so if they stop releasing upgrades you're out of luck.
If you don't need the latest and greatest, going used is going to still be a better value proposition.

Simple answer yes long answer maybe

Not trying to poopoo on anyone here, but it seems neat... But at double your budget it's just a neat toy. Can you afford that? If so, hell yes.
Otherwise you can find second hand laptops with great specs and upgrade that your self for cheaper.
I wish I could pull the trigger on one of these, but here I am just surfing eBay lol
- Yeah got a 14" ThinkPad 8gen 16GB 512GB SSD for Under 200€. Lots of connectics too. It's crazy IMO.
  I mean if OP got the money why not but economy wise nah there are better plans :-D
  
  Where did you get your cheap Thinkpad?

The only downsides of framework that I have heard about are all software related bugs, meaning it just needs an update once a fix is released. As an example I heard it had some power management issues where the expandable slots drained the battery even is sleep mode, not sure if it was fix yet, but regardless it still sounds like a solid investment.
- pretty sure another is theyre trying to get coreboot working on it

It can be a long term investment in the same way a car is a long term investment - you can tune it up over the long term to extend it's life but at a certain point you'll likely have to replace some key components. The theory is that the cost of those repairs will be less than buying a whole new laptop though.

For me, it's looking to be a good choice. I enjoy hardware hacking/tinkering so, the 16 inch is going to be a great platform for me to tinker on (planning to extend the hinges and put a bunch of fun stuff on the top/kb area.

I've had mine (first generation 13" model) for over a year now. I'm very happy with it, and I intend to make it last me through university (3 years) and then some. I would consider it a good investment for me.
- and for how long do you youll be able to upgrade kt for
  
  At least five years. Even if the company goes under tomorrow, it'll be a while before the mainboard is truly obsolete. The main "consumable" would be the battery, which I can probably hack a replacement for if official parts are no longer available.

I've been happy with mine for a while. I've had some minor hiccups, but I blame myself for those because I choose to run arch on the thing. The swappable ports are a game changer for me, but that depends on the user.
When I bought it I didn't need a powerful laptop, but I may in a few years, so it made more sense to buy something for a bit more upfront. The upgradable mainboard is a crazy value add.
I've also been the unfortunate owner of multiple laptops that became unusable because of a broken part that was impossible to source for replacement.

For me it’s the only laptop that might entice me from leaving “the dark side” (Apple).
Would then install some Linux distro on it though.
- If Linux supported all that proprietary software that I need (or am used to using), I’d have switched already… And in my gaming machine, I’ll be switching, if Linux finally supports HDR
  
  Yeah, that’s mainly it indeed. For now my laptop works fine and I am not in need of a new one. But if it stops working, I might just switch. And the better than Mac gaming support would already be nice.
- This is my case. I'd been apple only until framework and now I'm so glad I transitioned a couple years ago when it came out. Now I'm stoked cause instead of buying a whole new laptop I get to upgrade it with a new amd mainboard

I'd get a cheaper laptop for $400 or so (Walmart/BestBuy have those with decent specs), add in some more RAM and swap the NVMe. True, no Coreboot (wait, do you get Framework laptops with Coreboot?), but otherwise better value for the money

Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
https://m.piped.video/watch?v=u01AbiCn_Nw
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I'm open-source; check me out at GitHub.

I seriously looked at them, but in the end, it was too expensive, especially over last years' models on sale- which were also very repairable. Not quite as much, but damn close, and with a dedicated GPU and better IO.
I like what they are doing, but they aren't quite there yet. The best long term investment IMO is a PC, since it can be easily upgraded independent of any one company. And the parts are much easier to trade, resell, etc.

Hi. If you want to look for a new laptop, you can also try out Tuxedo laptops: https://www.tuxedocomputers.com/en/Linux-Hardware/Linux-Notebooks/Alle.tuxedo
Their laptops are a bit cheaper and also repairable, starting from 850 EUR (8GB RAM, no Win license, etc.) They assemble laptops, you specify components to your needs.
I'm a happy owner of Tuxedo InfinityBook 15. The most important is that they use normal generic power supply (not some proprietary one that is hard to replace) with an ability to charge from 65+W USB-C connector. Battery preservation bypass mode is also possible in BIOS settings. Their keyboards are also high-quality, replaceable and can have a custom layout. The screen is also high-quality. Initial setup is easy af. They maintain their own distro, which is quite good on its own, but the hardware is also Win-compatible. They also provide 5% discount for students.
(note: not sponsored)

Since no one asked... What are your use cases? Do you need a discrete GPU? Something lite? Something with lots of ports?
If you can afford it easily and used 500 bucks as a random number sure no problem, but othewise I don't think it a Framework is a good idea.

When my current laptop from work runs it's course then I'll ask for one of these with a GPU. My current one I can change RAM and SSD. But later on I can't just get myself a GPU, DP connector, another USB-C instead of USB-A, LAN connector, memory card reader etc etc. I also think that if I already upgrade the RAM and SSD and then want to do the processor I shouldn't have to buy a whole new laptop. Options that allow you to bring your own RAM and M2 SSD are pretty few.

Warning: This comment contains small sample sizes.
In my adult life, I have owned two laptops. Both were bought brand new, both were relatively high end machines that cost more than $1000 each, plus accessories and the maximum extended warranties they offered. Both lasted 8+ years in service. The second one (a 2014 Dell Inspiron) is still in service, though I need to upgrade the OS on it.
Both machines required warranty service fairly early in their lives(the Dell egregiously so; very long story very short, they sold me a lemon and after replacing practically everything in it at least once they eventually replaced the machine outright) and received repairs/upgrades around the 4 year mark. The Gateway got its fan cleaned and the RAM replaced/upgraded from 1 to 2 GB. It also required frequent adjustment to its display hinge. It was running okay if slow by the end of it; a Centrino Duo running Vista was kind of sluggish in 2014. The monitor died in a way I couldn't fix, and replacements were unobtainable, so that's what finally did it in. The Dell got a fan replaced, the battery replaced, and the HDD replaced/upgraded to a SATA SSD. It is still running its originally installed 16GB of DDR3 RAM. It's slightly sluggish running Windows, but feels very responsive running Linux. I intend to keep it in service until Linux Mint doesn't support it or something breaks that I can't fix.
On both machines, the I/O didn't age particularly gracefully. The Gateway only had a VGA connector well into the era of HDMI and DisplayPort, the Dell has USB 3.0 and no USB-C connectors, no Ethernet and a proprietary barrel jack charger.
Both machines showed scuffs and scratches by year 8 but the chassis held up and were/are still serviceable.
Given my history with laptops, I see a Framework as pretty much the same "investment" that my Gateway and Dell were. I would not anticipate upgrading the mainboard; I don't think they'll keep making mainboards compatible with the current issue chassis a decade from now, and the chassis will probably be ready for a replacement by then anyway. But, I anticipate replacing the battery, SSD and probably a fan or two at the 4 or 5 year mark, likely out of warranty, and it looks like Framework would be above average for that.
My next laptop is likely to be a Framework simply because they're one of the few companies that A. still exists and B. hasn't pissed me off yet.

Just saw a video on YouTube where someone built a cyberdeck using the framework mainboard and accessories. Had me really intrigued that you can buy into a laptop ecosystem that basically enables hacking, too.
- link vid please
  
  Here you are: Link

No.
For it to be a good investment it’s value would have to go up over time or drop at a slower rate than other comparable things.
A mac is a better investment (but still not “good”) not only because they tend to hold more value over time but the used market has higher volume so there’s less chance you need to price it low or wait a long time when you’re ready to sell.
If you’re worried about the value of being able to fix it, spend less than your $500 budget on a used t480 with the processor you want, upgrade the ram to 16, 32 or 64gb, install at least one ssd and be glad that there are literally millions of inexpensive spare parts on the market and will be for at least a decade.
What framework does uniquely offer is the ability to change your complement of ports. That’s either a useless novelty or a powerful tool depending entirely upon weather you consistently swap them out and can find all the ports you need as expansions or not.
Is it worth it to not be carrying around some dongle? I don’t know.
E: the processor to get on that t480 is one of the intels.

Seems a little overpriced to me for a laptop when you can get a steam deck for 600 or a used thinkpad with very nice specs for 100-200$. This laptop has some neat features and if you have 1k to spend on a laptop I guess why go for it, but if you just want a device to do some basic computation work you can find more powerful laptops for much cheaper.
- what is a steam deck lol
  
  It's a handheld gaming PC a la the Nintendo Switch that runs a custom Linux distro.

Is it really more modular than a ThinkPad or even professional Dell? I have an old Dell and finding replacement keyboard for it on ebay was cheap and easy. Same with battery. Changing keybaord/cpu/RAM is super easy, you can do it yourself. Bonus is that parts will be available for a very long time, there are many providers and surplus stock. Framework is nice but can you really be sure that in 5 years you will still be able to find parts easily?
- Good luck putting a new i7 into your 7 year old Dell.
  
  I don't get your point. Isn't it obvious that you should be comparing 7 year old Dell to 7 years old framework laptop and new Dell to new framework? What does you comparing old Dell to new framework prove?

Laptops are not long-term investments. Hardware innovation makes them obsolete almost as fast as phones. Whenever some new OS security feature comes out that depends on BIOS or chip capabilities then you need to swap motherboards (and often memory) which is the bulk of cost. Or when a new USB format comes out. Or whatever is the "flavor of the month" improvement in GPUs, Bluetooth connectivity etc. The only scenarios in which extensibility really makes sense would be SSD size, maybe battery or RAM. But if it costs double then you would be better off buying a new laptop now and then another in a few years, instead of paying up front for in order to "maybe" be able to swap some of the components later...
- That's the draw behind Framework, you can swap out the mobo with new ones as needed for a fraction of the price of a new laptop, and use the old mobo standalone as a server or similar.
- Downvotes aside, this is the correct answer. This is one of those ideas that sounds good on paper. But in reality, you're better off buying a new laptop every few years.

Module laptops are a niche gimmick and a waste of money.

The Framework Laptop, as of my last knowledge update in September 2021, offers an intriguing approach to long-term laptop investment. Its modularity and customizability allow users to upgrade components like the CPU, RAM, and storage, potentially extending its lifespan and making it cost-effective over time. Whether it's a good long-term investment depends on various factors. Consider your specific needs, the availability of replacement parts, customer support, and the compatibility of modular components with future technologies. A durable build quality is essential, and the laptop's ability to keep up with evolving technology trends should be assessed. Your budget and available alternatives also play a role in the decision-making process.
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Ultimately, the decision to invest in the Framework Laptop or seek spam-free dissertation assignment help hinges on your specific needs, priorities, and the current state of technology. Regularly updated information and vigilant research into products and services are vital to make informed decisions in today's fast-evolving tech and education landscapes.
- rly, chatgtp

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