Double standards or something, I don't know...

"Unclear who is right"

No it's pretty clear, out with the colonizer government. How is this a question?

Edit: removed implied support for Hamas. Both militaries should burn. Hope for a quick end to the conflict for the sake of the civilians affected.

It isn’t that nuanced. The colonized, subjugated population is rising up rather than laying down to continue getting slaughtered.

Liberate Palestine.

I get that there is lot more nuances than russo-ukrainian, but imo there is a lot more similarities than you seem to imply : both Russia and Israel claimed that the land belonged to them before, that they should get it back, and use violence to kill local people who tried to resist or move them. The only difference is that Israel did it with the help of western countries and partially according to their laws, so they get like an aura of legitimity, but the acts remains quite close.

I do not like when people basically do not accept violent behavior but accepts them when they are allowed by some law or authority.

(Also yes Hamas is doing bad things and should be held accountable in some way, just like Ukraine to my eyes. But still, for me it remains obvious who kills more, who steals more, who oppresses more)

all this land is my country's, the other country should not exist.

One of those countries is an ethno-religious state that is exclusive of the other. Can you guess which one?

If you are an ethno-religious exclusivist who says "your country shouldn't exist only mine!" and I am a country that multi-religious, and say "actually my country should be the prevailing one, not your exclusivist one", you gotta realize those two are massively different, unlike you portray.

The Russo-Ukranian conflict is clear. One leader is claiming the land of the other

Russia's original pretext for the war is not about territorial gains. It was supposedly regarding Ukraine's attack on Donetsk, Luhansk, and ethnic Russian populations in general (such as the Odessa massacre), what they also called "de-nazification" of the Ukrainian government, and Ukraine's bid to join NATO. This is easily verifiable, but I can provide you a sources on this if you doubt me.

I am not claiming what Russia is saying is true, but it is not what you make it seem to make your argument.

I feel like the people should have some say in who they want governing them.

It’s unclear who is right.

https://www.un.org/unispal/document/auto-insert-184195/

2. Reaffirms the legitimacy of the struggle of peoples for their independence, territorial integrity, national unity and liberation from colonial domination, apartheid and foreign occupation by all available means, including armed struggle;

Seems pretty clear.

"Lets have some nuance" people on their way to defend Nazi war criminals

Its unlcear who is right? Tell me, who lived there first before the US swung its dick around and displaced all of them?

No, its not.

True

Yeah mostly because isreal/ Palestine conflict is much older then russia/Ukraine so a lot of things happened. But at it's very core they both started because of the same claim : russia claimed used to own Ukraine so they want it back. The jews used to own Palestine so they want it back. So if you support Ukraine and isreal you're just a hypocrite

What nuance is there be had about this? Israel is a settler-colonial apartheid state that deserves what should've happened to America when those settlers were doing it. That's like saying "the civil rights conflict has an infinite list of wrinkles and nuances"; in that it's objectively wrong.

No its not that complicated. Israel are straight up shit stains generally speaking. Have been since they immigrated to Jerusalem and then ran a coup with western support. Imagine if Russians showed up in your backyard one day took over your house and then started killing your neighbors. Meanwhile china sitting there going 'looks good to me guys!'

Swap out relative names with jews and usa.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Azs7As3MYFU

Palestinian conflict is very simple: an army vs civilians. Only gonna end when all the latter are dead.

Should we ever try to sanction that army? Never! Should we try sanctioning US for killing million iraqis who had not a WMD? No! Should we sanction Nato for bombing the wealthiest african estate libya to it's ruin? Ah wait, WE are Nato. Can't shoot own ankle.

Why? Because the west supports the occupied in one and the occupier in the other? Don't forget the west expected Ukraine to be an occupied state with a gorilla insurgency within a few weeks at the start of the conflict.

Edit: because I am getting the expected hate. The Palestinians didn't start out as Hamas. The extremism of Hamas was born out of the lack of action from former moderates. People will always become more extreme when they are met with a lack of action. That goes for the left and the right.

So ask yourself if someone came to your house and told you to leave how angry would you be? If you don't understand this look up the actions of the Israeli settlements.

They're not identical, but they have similarities. What Russia is trying to do to Ukraine is not dissimilar to what Israel did to Palestine half a century ago.

In what ways are they different that it justifies supporting Ukraine but not Palestine?

No one is saying they're identical. But there are similarities.

And Israel has a history of propping up Hamas. They even admit it.

They're not identical but there are many similarities.

Yes, one is recent, impacts the West directly and a bunch of white people and the other is Palestine.

(Edit: what I'm about to say is a good bit wrong, but I'm not going to try and hide my mistakes. This article has a more complete history: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/why-israel-and-palestine-conflict-war-history-b2426050.html)

I don't support the violence at all, but this isn't a (direct) result of imperialism.

After WW2, the Allies were like, "what do we do with all these Jews? We don't want them in our countries." Then they thought, "why not Jerusalem?" But a bunch of Arabs were living there, but the Allies really didn't want more Jews, so they just dumped them all in modern Israel, told the Arabs this is Jews' land now, and recognized Israel as a state. Palestine has a right to be pissed. So this isn't so much an imperialism problem as much as a racism problem.

But still, Hamas are evil fuckers that take shit too far. Israel definitely is not the good guy and is not helping the situation at all, but this kind of escalation just makes shit worse for everyone.

Thank you. There's way too many people claiming one or the other side is justified or worse and frankly at this point they've both committed so many atrocities against one another that it's hard to have an emotional or subjective response other than, they're both pretty shitty.

Also just looking at history isn't going to solve anything. If that was the only solution we can just get any map remove all borders everywhere and discus how to draw them based on history. We all know this is just going to be a never ending discussion because it just depends on what snapshot in time (of the world) you take as your truth.

At this point in time that conflict has been going on for so long, I have no clue anymore who started it.

You know very well who started it. You just want to pretend that historical facts are lost to the sands of time because they're damaging to your centrist bullshit.

https://www.un.org/unispal/document/auto-insert-184195/

no historical context needed. History is not useful at all to understand current actions. Do your own research, but i can tell you The british supported jewish militias, to occupy that territory (under british control). That started the ethnic cleasing of palestinians in 1948, displacing millions. I dont know how to link stuff pls help me

You ruined the surprise!!!!

You're telling on yourself. You genuinely don't give a shit about the Palestinian struggle. You just want them to sit down and take their genocide.

Legitimatlly curious if 6 months has changed your perspective?

It all started with this fuckin' Serbian dude getting a sandwich...

Let me guess... India?

1. Ukraine is 7 letters and Palestine is 9

Broke: Two-state solution

Woke: One-state solution

Bespoke: Zero-state solution

Ukraine is a sovereign nation that got attacked by another country.

Palestine just carried out a horrible attack on Israel. Plus the history of Israel and Palestine is totally different. It's just apples and oranges. I'm not claiming in any way Israel is right here, but Hamas is definitely scum of the Earth.

What if I told you stuff is always "amazing you" because you have a fundamental misunderstanding of them.

You said "western hypocracy" while I blame ignorance about history as a bigger matter here

In every sense of the word, you are the only hypocrite here

This is called the two state solution, and it'd be nice. It's been tried and it failed, and that's why Israel and Palestine are fighting now. It seems like the best solution but so far Israel has never agreed to it.

So you support Israel committing genocide in Palestine because they lean west. Way to go lil bro

"I support the fascistsdoing a genocide because they're aligned with us and do our bidding" is the kind of honesty we're looking for from liberals on foreign policy.

Genuinely, thank you for your honesty. Can you please tell the rest of the libs to communicate like this and we wouldn't be as mean to them.

Counterpoint: aligning with the west/the US is bad.

My reasoning mostly stem on their Ideology. Israel leans more to the US.

Mask off lmao

you should read about donbas from 2014-2021

Palestine has oil and gas same with Ukraine.

No, there is a big group that supports Ukraine and Israel.

And that group includes a majority in Congress, President Biden and (in Ukraine) president Zelensky.

And then there are also the tankies that support Palestine and Russia.

Finally, a lot of people are neutral or non-aligned in Israel vs Palestine, including myself, but definitely pro-Ukraine.

I absolutely cannot keep track of the layers of betrayal and reconciliation. Anyone who tells you that an issue in the Middle East is certain is, at best, benignly unaware. It is utterly unsalvageable on both sides.

pretty sure the americans that support Ukraine also support Palestine

I'd like to see those people square that up with this: https://thelemmy.club/pictrs/image/90177c67-3aa3-4cb6-88cb-72c96b2a441d.jpeg

But Israel supports Ukraine, hmmmm.