American XL bully dogs to be banned after attacks, Rishi Sunak says

I'm not a dog breed expert, but...

The other day an agressive dog that looked like a pitbull, suddenly lunged at me barking loudly... It was about 10ft away from me but still scared the shit out of me

The owner yanked the dog back on its leash and i thought, "FML, the only thing that saved me from a deadly mauling was a 3/4 inch wide piece of nylon with a metal clip the guy bought off amazon for $5"

"But my little velvet hippo couldn't hurt anyone!"
- Hippos are super aggressive, territorial, and will bite a crocodiles in half. It’s amazing that’s supposed to be a cute, disarming nickname for a breed notorious for the same traits.
- To be fair most won’t, but they definitely can and do.
  
  Especially when they are jaws on legs that are more inclined compared to other dogs.
- It’s funny they call them hippos considering that hippos are extremely dangerous and vicious wild animals.
- That's funny because hippos kill more people than dogs
A shitbull owner using a leash, rare combination.
I was walking my dog through my neighborhood once, and one of my stupid ass neighbors had his dog loose in his garage with the door open across the street. When it saw me, it charged at us, barking aggressively. It didn’t attack me, it just stood a few feet away baring its teeth and barking while his overweight owner waddled over to it armed with a sandle. I think it was a labrador.

If it was a pitbull though I’d likely be missing a limb or two today.
not if that is sarcasm or not, but most likely there was no pitull in that that dog.
- Based on what?
- not sarcasm at all...
  
  regardless of breed, this dog looked like he was about to fuck up my whole day, so my point stands
blame the owner not the dog
- Blame both if the dog is a known dangerous breed.
- Blame the parents not the serial killer.

Unsurprising. Large “power breeds” like pit bulls I have always found questionable to have.

No restrictions or licenses? No muzzles at least?

A good thing they banned them.

Though I still dislike the outright malice and hate I see when a pit bull in a photo might be doing nothing but staring at a sunset. A bit hate crazy.

Literally all I'm saying is that the vast majority of pit bulls aren't violent. I fucking said I'm in favor of spaying and neutering the breed out of existence because the few that do become violent are excessively dangerous.
- If you're a dog owner and you're paying attention, then your personal experience should include the following truth: any dog can go postal. If you then combine this with the knowledge that pitbulls are much more deadly than other dogs when being agressive, then you must reach the conclusion that this breed should be banned, even though that is admittedly a sad conclusion.
- People with access to verifiable data overlook the appearance of safety to express a legitimate concern about a breed that's demonstrably more likely to kill? What dorks!

I used to have a Pitbull, such a beautiful girl, who one day chased and killed one of our cats she'd grown up with. My friend had her brother, such a beautiful boy, who one day chased and killed one of their cats.

Last week, on my lifestyle block, two Pitbulls appeared and killed my chickens before I could stop them. I chased the fuckers off but haven't found where they came from.

That is all.

What is a lifestyle block? Is that a new way of saying neighbourhood?
The thing I have noticed about pitballs is that they have like this beast mode where they seem to just lose it with rage. Also because of their jaw strength when they do lose it whatever they do is much worse than regular dogs.
That's not just Pitbull behavior though. That's called prey drive and a lot of breeds have that. Some everyone expects like Greyhounds and Bulldogs. But it's also present in breeds like Golden Retrievers, Bassett Hounds, and Irish Setters. Are we going to ban Golden's next? They can also feature the fun perk, protectiveness, where they go after anyone who gets close to their human. And any dog can become reactive.
- I'll take the dogs that are less prone to "prey drive" thank you very much. You don't really see Goldens or Bassetts mauling small creatures or humans.
- How many people have been mauled to death by Bassett hounds?
- And any dog can become reactive.
  
  Any cat can give you a scratch or a bite, it's just worse if the cat is a tiger. That's why most places do allow a small pet cat and not a tiger.
  
  Sausage dogs are extremely tough dogs with a lot of prey drive, because they were bred to hunt alone for example a ~~dodger~~ badger underground defending its home. They bite often, are often (pro-)reactive but if someone dies through them it is an old lady stumbling over the leash and breaking her neck, not the dog ripping her guts out.

Every couple of weeks I feed mine a toddler, it seems to keep the violent tendencies away.

Dog breeds all exist for a purpose either still relevant or now redundant.

Before you get a dog, understand what that breed exists for. Even the best obedience training may not overcome generations of refined and selected natural instincts.

It's never the dogs fault. It is always your fault.

Whoa grab some popcorn folks cause this comment section is a dumpster fire. Do we have a lemmy drama community yet?

How is it a dumpster fire? I don't see anyone defending the breed.
- You summoned one!
- I think we should genocide every dog because any dog is more dangerous than no dogs.
- That's because this isn't a breed specific problem. Unless that breed is Human. Humans can fuck up any dog on purpose or not and the shitbags who like this breed specifically because it has a reputation will just choose a new breed to fuck up after you ban this one. This has been the pattern of Breed Specific Legislation everywhere it's been introduced. You can do all of the same aggressive training with a Golden Retriever. And the list of dogs known to have a protective streak is as long as my arm.

My neighbor has a pit mix and it snarled at me gnashing its teeth once as she walked by. I was just standing there by my car minding my own business barely even acknowledging them. I jump and yell Jesus wtf lady omg. She just made pathetic excuses, he keeps me safe, never does that, it's fiiiiine etc. Ive told her numerous times she needs to train it at the bare minimum, preferably destroy it. I've observed it doing the same to other people as they walk past. I bought pepper spray and look out for them very carefully whenever I go to my car now. I bet it's just a matter of time before someone gets mauled and I hope it's not me. Fucking hate those things.

After watching my cop neighbor try to drive a dog away with pepper spray, it's not going to help much. Even direct hits to the eyes didn't seem to affect the dog much.
- Oof, noted, thanks. I figured it's a decent last resort but I guess not. Vigilance and avoidance are the best bet as usual. I'm not quite ready to buy a handgun over this.
sorry you experienced that, it's a poor owner, not a bad breed. we have a staffy mix that's an adorable mutt, great dog.
- Do you agree that retrievers are bred to retrieve things?
  
  Do you agree that herding dogs are bred to herd things?
  
  Do you agree that pointer dogs are bred to find things?
  
  Surely you've been around these kinds of dogs before. It's not something that they learn; they are specifically bred to do a job and they will do that job even without training. You've seen or heard of how a sheepdog will herd small children, I'm sure. It's why the breed exists; they are specifically bred to do a certain thing and genetically their instinct is to do the thing that they were bred for over the course of thousands of years. You can remove them from their mom and not give them any training and they will naturally do the thing that they were bred to do. You don't have to train a golden to bring you back a ball.
  
  So is it a surprise that a dog bred to kill things will want to kill things?
  
  That's not simply because of "a poor owner", although the fact that people refuse to train their killer dogs to not be killers is part of it. It's because their dogs are genetically predisposed to kill, just like a pointer dog is genetically predisposed to find things.
  
  It is absolutely a bad breed. Killer dogs should be banned worldwide. Every single pitbull, rottweiler, etc. should be spayed/neutered and the breed should end. They're too dangerous and dumb owners have proven that you can't rely on humans to keep them under control.
  
  It's not the dogs' fault, mind - it's their instinct. But that doesn't mean that future generations should have to deal with it.
- Bullshit. You think shitbulls got their reputation from thin air? Shit dogs for shit owners.
- This is exactly what they are complaining about 😛
- Aren't like 70% of fatal dog attacks from pits or pit mixes?

Good. Too bad more countries aren't doing this.

We regulate cars pretty heavily, we regulate guns decently.

When it comes to dogs, across the entire world, literally crickets chirping. No government does anything.
- I think there are some strict laws in Germany when it comes to dog ownership.
- There's a whole bunch of countries where they wouldn't even think of regulating them as pets because dogs are purely working animals or feral.
13 dog breeds and mixed breeds are banned in Denmark: https://en.foedevarestyrelsen.dk/animals/animal-welfare/danish-legislation-on-dogs as one example.

I do wonder how much is the breed and how much is shitty owners being attracted to perceived scary breeds. My guess would be a bit of both.

You don’t need to train a pointer puppy to point. They do it from birth. You don’t need to train a sheep dog to herd. They do it from the moment they can walk. You don’t need to teach a pit bull to latch and shake. They also do that from birth. Training can mitigate the risk, but they’re still very dangerous dogs.
- Literally every breed with a prey drive does the death shake. And they aren't the only ones with locking jaws either. This is very much a problem of shitty people who like the reputation.
- If that logic holds true than pure American pitbull terriers should actually be the safest dogs to own in regards to people. Pitbulls where bred for dog fighting, but even more specifically they were bred to not bite the handlers. As getting a dog to fight is just a matter of time and selection, but getting a dog to fight only dogs and not people is something much more difficult and valuable, at the time.
  
  But, that was many, many years ago. And the breed has been bred and bred and inbred and bred again. An American pitbull terrier average weight is about 35 to 60 lbs. Average. 35 is no bigger than an average corgi. With 60 at the high end being a small golden or average chow.
  
  These XL bully breeds aren't pitbulls. Hell, even pitbulls now days aren't pitbulls. They are a mix of staffy, mastiff, American bull dogs, English bulldogs, and random other terriers. And then sold as designer breeds like the American bully with no regard for behavior, temperament, or loyalty.
In the past I'd say it's a bit of both, though moreso the type of shitheads attracted to 'scary' breeds is also as likely to be shit at training/ socialising them. There's some good evidence though that this particular 'XL' breed has higher rates of inbreeding and has already been selected for agression (not to mention their increased size & power).

Think it's a fair point some are making though that just banning the latest dangerous breed is missing the wood for the trees. There should be serious penalties from any dog attack, for the owner; treat it the same as possession of a dangerous weapon like a gun or zombie knife.
It's bit of both. These morons aren't lining up to buy daschunds.
You need to go one step further - why do people feel the need to own such dogs in the first place? Some people would say the dog is for protection (from who? And why are those people a threat? It's well known that lack of social and communal services lead to young people ending up involved with gangs and violence), others use it as a status symbol (don't even get me started on consumerism, and commodification of natural shit like animals), and in almost all cases there is a lot of toxic masculinity involved.

These are all deep rooted systemic issues that go far beyond both dogs and owners (don't get me wrong - I am not excusing bad dog ownership, and don't think people should be raising violent and aggressive dogs), and they all need addressing to actually resolve the problem, but it's much easier for those in charge to focus on the end result, and make it an individual issue, they don't care about making society better, they just want power and money.
- Not arguing here, all your points are correct, just sharing why I have a big scary dog. He's half GSD, quarter american pit (not xl) and quarter American staffordshire. I got him for two reasons, 1) I have a first floor patio in a bad neighborhood and he's got a great guard insinct, and 2) he's a big baby and makes a great emotional support animal (ptsd anxiety and ASD). I don't need protection, I just need a buddy to scare off the crackheads who have tried to walk into my appartment just because I wanted some fresh air and left the door open. He loves everyone, but oh boy if I don't let you in myself you're in for one hell of time. I've raised dogs all my life, knew what I wanted, and what I was getting into. That is unfortunately not the case 90% of the time and it pisses me off when I see it. Honestly I would love to require people get a liscense to own a dog (let alone have children)
There's a story that a family dog got loose after a car crash. They found the dog a few days later ... herding sheep. No one ever taught the dog to herd sheep.
- Pitbull?
Literally all I'm saying is that the vast majority of pit bulls aren't violent. I fucking said I'm in favor of spaying and neutering the breed out of existence because the few that do become violent are excessively dangerous.
- Horses are fragile as fuck. Let's talk about dogs that were bred to kill bears. Oh but wait they didn't get a street rep and a million shitty owners abusing them. Alaskan Malamutes were bred to help with Polar Bears, they get to about 100 pounds, have a very strong bite, and a big independent streak making them harder to train. Oh yeah and they come with a warning about being around children.
  
  What's the difference in the actual breeds? The Malamute is giant fluffball. The Pitbull has many manly muscles.
- Ive seen people attack and kill buffalo. We should kill whichever breed of people do that.
The problem is that there's no way to tell a bad owner from a good one, which is how we end up in situations like this. I've almost had my throat torn out as I made my way to the bus stop because a very submissive owner couldn't control his dommy gshep, which was lunging and straining at the leash in order to kill me.

I love sheps and have met some extremely good owners, but they are few and far between compared to the jackasses who bring their Rottweilers into bars, where the dog goes absolutely ballistic and starts making kill noises at everyone until the owner has to leave the bar. And that happened last month, lol.
most people that know how to train dogs have perfectly well behaved dogs, of course they're always going to be animals at the end of the day but we shouldn't be surprised when they act out either
In the case of decent owners probably 50/50. Bad owners more like 10/90 (dog/owner).
oh oh I read a study answering that.

It depends on behavior. They found high correlation between breed and how many time they turned around before laying down. Certain common trip like sit or come. But not aggressive behavior. They highest correlation for that was back ground. Dog from the streets or abusive backgrounds. Followed by a small correlation with genetics, which is not the same as breed.

Breed did have anything to do with aggression. Also most people can't tell a pitbull from other dogs, and studies that look at dog attacks only rely on the victim just saying what breed attacked them

Pity, teachers should have a good pitbulls to stop the bad ones.

This isn't the time to discuss pitbull control.

They are poor misbreeds anyway.

ITT: bleeding hearts who don’t understand the difference between animal species and dog breeds.

This is the best summary I could come up with:

A ban on American bully XL dogs was already being looked at after shocking footage emerged of an attack in Birmingham last weekend that left an 11-year-old girl with serious injuries.

South Yorkshire Police reported four separate dog attacks on children in two days, including one where a 15-year-old was taken to hospital after being savaged by an XL bully in Sheffield.

Any ban should be based on "robust evidence", a spokeswoman for the coalition said - adding it was "deeply concerned" by the "lack of data behind this decision and its potential to prevent dog bites".

But there is concern a move to prohibit the animal may not be practical due to the American XL bully not being recognised as a breed by the Kennel Club, which could mean any ban may inadvertently outlaw other kinds of dogs.

As head of the Merseyside force back in 2007, he had introduced such a measure following the death of five-year-old Ellie Lawrenson, who was mauled by a banned pitbull-type dog at her grandmother's home in St Helens on New Year's Day.

In a joint statement, Bully Watch, the Campaign for Evidence Based Regulation of Dangerous Dogs (CEBRDD) and Protect Our Pets claimed the breed was a "a clear and present threat to public health".

The original article contains 976 words, the summary contains 213 words. Saved 78%. I'm a bot and I'm open source!

This article was interesting, and suggested that there could be a specific issue with the breeding lines of the XLs in the UK. Worth a read for anyone who's actually interested in reading further than a headline.

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2023/aug/16/the-alarming-rise-of-american-bully-xl-dogs-if-one-gets-hold-of-you-youre-in-trouble

This probably wont be the last breed they ban...

They're just gonna keep playing whack a mole with whatever breed is popular among people who like to abuse dogs until they're aggressive. You can breed for temperament but you can't eliminate bad temperament by banning breeds. The bully xl is itself a hybrid of a breed that was already banned in the UK for aggression.
- They’re just gonna keep playing whack a mole with whatever breed is popular among people who like to abuse dogs until they’re aggressive. You can breed for temperament but you can’t eliminate bad temperament by banning breeds.
  
  True,
It won't be.

People that want an aggressive dog, buy the dog with the reputation to be the most aggressive, then they raise them to be aggressive.

Ban pitbulls, and they'll go back to buying rottweilers, which are usually bigger and stronger too.
- Just wait till they get to Malinois...five years ago you never saw them outside of law enforcement and military...now im starting to see them in shelters...
- As a pitbull owner, I may take my chances trying to subdue an aggressive PB. An agressive Rot, I’m climbing trees.
- If rottweilers were better fighters, they would have the reputation pitbulls have.
Part of the problem is it isn't a breed.

Part of the order (request? whatever it is) is to define the breed first. Which makes the rest seem pretty reactionary. Not far off from saying "ban dogs I find scary".
- A lot of that is selective breeding. Humans add a ton of extra stuff to breed, but groups of breeds are not as arbitrary. Pointers have been bred for bird hunting, shepherds for livestock, retrievers for waterfowl, terriers for small game hunting. Bulldogs were bred for 150+ years to attack bulls, bears, and other dogs (until animal welfare laws banned dog fighting). Further division of breeds (like rat terrier vs feist) is arbitrary and doesn't represent anything meaningful genetically.
  
  My opinion is that bulldog / terrier mixes (like the pit) represent a greater risk to humans than the average dog. I don't think it's anything unique to the pit, which has a lot of media hysteria. The data look so bad for pits because they are so popular. If Staffordshires were more popular in America, they'd show up in the stars more.
  
  The name "pit bull terrier" did originate from bull terriers used in professional dog fighting. Dogs would fight in a pit. Until animal cruelty laws became a thing.
  
  Just being upfront: I wouldn't own a pit due to the number of instances of friends having a pit that is the "nicest dog ever" and it randomly attacked them one day. I also extend this to Persian cats, btw. But we can't ban particular breeds. Punish bad owners, continue selectively breeding dogs to reduce aggression.
  
  Extreme example: Adults who were abused as children are more likely to be child abusers themselves. Should we ban people who were beaten by their parents from being teachers? They are statistically more likely to abuse children.

“Garbage dogs for garbage people”

"Genetics matter, but genetics are a nudge in a given direction. They're not a destiny," Evan MacLean, the director of the Arizona Canine Cognition Center at the University of Arizona, who was not involved in the research, tells NPR. "We've known that for a long time in human studies, and this paper really suggests that the same is true for dogs."

https://www.npr.org/2022/04/28/1095390872/dog-breeds-behavior-study

I've noticed once someone starts talking about "breed determines behavior, it's in their genes!!!!". It doesn't take much more for them to start saying the same about other animals, like humans.

"Banning pitbull? Just a step away from banning races!"
Interestingly, the same people who pushed the whole dog breed thing were pushing the white supremacy thing last century. Now, they are just idiots pushing an easy issue when all they need to do is look at actual studies.
The whole human population has less genetic diversity than a random troupe of chimps, much less domestic dogs as a whole. We're absurdly uniform.
owner survey

*For anyone else, breed was tested genetically, behavior was an owner survey. GIGO.
- RESULTS We surveyed owners of 18,385 dogs (49% purebred) and sequenced the DNA of 2155 dogs. Most behavioral traits are heritable [heritability (h2) > 25%], but behavior only subtly differentiates breeds. Breed offers little predictive value for individuals, explaining just 9% of variation in behavior. For more heritable, more breed-differentiated traits, like biddability (responsiveness to direction and commands), knowing breed ancestry can make behavioral predictions somewhat more accurate (see the figure). For less heritable, less breed-differentiated traits, like agonistic threshold (how easily a dog is provoked by frightening or uncomfortable stimuli), breed is almost uninformative. We used dogs of mixed breed ancestry to test the genetic effect of breed ancestry on behavior and compared that to survey responses from purebred dog owners. For some traits, like biddability and border collie ancestry, we confirm a genetic effect of breed that aligns with survey responses. For others, like human sociability and Labrador retriever ancestry, we found no significant effect. Through genome-wide association, we found 11 regions that are significantly associated with behavior, including howling frequency and human sociability, and 136 suggestive regions. Regions associated with aesthetic traits are unusually differentiated in breeds, consistent with a history of selection, but those associated with behavior are not.
  
  What alternative kind of study do you think would be better?
  
  And if one exists that comes to a different conclusion, can you link it?

Oh my springer will be sad. There are 4 dogs in our area that brings him out of his shell from being very careful and cautious, to a raving loon that sends him to loony town... it would be a shame if these two frisky buddies couldn't play.

I've got an Am Staff/German Shepherd mix and she is literally a baby. Whenever I'm on the couch she wants up and cuddles. If I go to bed she wants to sleep next to me. Even insists on making sure I touch her paw while she sleeps. Raise your dog right, socialise them, train them, and they won't be a problem.

Thank fuck I don't live in the UK. It's disgusting how they can go into your home and "destroy" a member of your family even if there are no complaints from anyone and never once been an incident. I hate violence, but I would absolutely become violent if the state tried to murder a member of my family without any just cause.

Hope this isn't you one day.
- Won't happen. I actually train my dogs. Also, go fuck yourself for the implication.

It's really disheartening to see Reddit's irrational pit bull venom is just as present here. Notice how rarely you see comments from animal industry professionals chiming in with these opinions. It's not because professionals don't have their own breed biases, and they don't typically keep quiet about them, either. It's that most people with a lot of day-to-day experience with dogs don't share this opinion. Their experiences don't match public perception.

Bite statistics and behavioral euthanasias both in private and public spheres are anything but transparent. They also often rely upon witness statement accuracy, which is not reliable nor scientific. There simply isn't enough accurate information available to support such a vitriolic, knee-jerk reaction to a dog's breed in and of itself. There are too many variables to consider to accept that mindset as rational.

I encourage anyone who cares about these issues and who loves animals and people to consider volunteering. There are a lot of opportunities out there that you might be surprised are available. It's not just shelters who need volunteers, either, and you can find opportunities in an array of different settings and ways of helping. You might find that experience will give you a broader understanding of how complex these problems are, and how we can work to solve them.

There simply isn’t enough accurate information available to support such a vitriolic, knee-jerk reaction to a dog’s breed in and of itself.

Of course there is. Not a week goes by in the UK without an attack by this breed. Some survive, many do not.
- Not a week goes by in the UK without an attack by this breed. Some survive, many do not.
  
  Can you please link some statistics on this?
  
  The only source I could find says:
  
  Six of the 10 fatal dog attacks in the UK last year were linked to XL bullies, and at least three of the seven this year.
  
  https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/sep/15/why-are-american-xl-bullies-being-banned-and-how-will-it-work
  
  That's too many deaths, of course, but hardly one a week.
The statistics are unequivocal. There is a reason we don’t usually allow people to own lions and leopards as house pets. No amount of obedience training is going to make them safe. Here is a list of all fatal dog attacks in the UK. Pit bull breeds are far over-represented. I just don’t see how you can look at this data and think, “everything is fine!”
- I genuinely can’t grasp why anyone would die on the hill of defending pit bulls. There are countless other dog breeds to choose from, why can’t we just ban pit bulls entirely when they’re demonstrably dangerous?
- As I said, dog bite and behavioral euthanasia reports are murky at best, and rely upon nonexpert information. I'm sorry, but a picture graph with no information on how the information was obtained, what verification was involved, etc. is no better than a Facebook share. That's my point. Information is hard to qualify, quantify, and assess. Trying to oversimplify such a complicated issue is not going to get to the root of the problem.
Here ya go. I spent 7 years in the military as a dog handler with two different malinois during that time.

I then got out and worked for a government agency investigating dog attacks.

One of the first jobs across my desk was… an American Bully XL. Almost killed another dog and sent a male person to the hospital. The dog was from an upper class family and was around little children daily.

We had 7 dogs that we had confiscated, pending court hearing regarding attacks.

7 out of 7 dogs were bully breed dogs.

In my experience I will not trust a bully breed dog in any circumstance. I’d take a malinois any day over a bully breed dog.
It’s not really about reddit, unless you think the UK government also got their attitude from reddit. Personally while I have not been attacked by a Pitt, and have known people with some that are nice and some that are insane, I have been threatened by Pitts in public and I did not enjoy it.

This is definitely the highest priority action item in the U.K. Right now.

/s

I fuckin' hate the tories, but you do realise governments can do more than one thing at once, right?

yeah don't blame the owner, blame the dog, morons

Hey it's like I always said. Not all pitbulls are bad dogs, but all pitbull owners are bad owners.
- that's just stupid