Do you agree?
Do you agree?
Comments
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It tells you that concepts like rights, morality, right and wrong are all human inventions and are all relative. Nature or the universe do not enforce them. You have a certain right, if the society you live in thinks you should have that right and if circumstances allow that you have that right. That means none of these rights are unalienable or guaranteed, they have to be defended constantly. Both physically and legally, both against internal and external threats.
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Mistaken reality aside, The (alternate) Janeway has a point. Everything we've painstakingly fought for previously has to be backed up by those willing to ensure those rights remain. By what means is yet to be seen, preferably by ink or, as needed, by force. Understandably, blood has already been spilled, but we hope to not need go further.
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It tells you that concepts like rights, morality, right and wrong are all human inventions and are all relative.
As much as philosophy, mathematics, logic. Relativistic fallacy: relative is the wrong word. They're unfalsifiable.
Nonetheless, committing yourself to a set of premises commits you to their logical consequences. Consistency demands rejecting contradictions.
You have a certain right, if the society you live in thinks you should have that right and if circumstances allow that you have that right.
Moral relativism. Do you think we should respect a moral system that accepts slavery as much as one that doesn't? If not, then you're not a moral relativist, and that's a relativist fallacy.
That means none of these rights are unalienable or guaranteed
Ideas such as inalienable/universal/inherent rights come from moral philosophy. The premise (if you accept it) is that they exist regardless of whether people choose to respect them: no one can revoke those rights, only violate them. Violations are unjust.
They don't imply a legal system can't violate ethics. They're for arguing a system shouldn't & to demand a more just one. It's still up to us to get that system.
Supposing is implies ought (or the contrapositive in this case) is a naturalistic fallacy.
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Rights are a human construct. They don't exist in nature.
When we fight to construct them, we must fight to keep them. In a representative democracy, our representatives are the ones who are supposed to fight for us. But when they fail, that responsibility falls back to the average, everyday, common person.
The struggle to keep our rights moreso has to do with getting people off the couch to stand up for what they believe in. In an apathetic society glued to their toys and treats, their bread and circuses, it's that much easier for other humans with wishes to collect their own power to dismantle that of the majority.
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human construct
Yeah but also human constructs are objectively real. When people say human construct in a way that relegates it lower than natural phenomenon, that is a condition of alienation. A building is a human construct, so is art, so is a computer, an industry, a society.
Rights are a social construct which are no less real than physically existing constructs. Money is a social construct, so is religion. In fact religion served the same function in feudal society that money does in capitalism.
Since all these things were created by humans, and humans are a part of nature, then human constructs are a part of nature. Rights develop as society develops, as we become more advanced. The right to healthcare didn't exist before there was widely available doctors, hospitals and clinics to provide it, before modern medicine made it possible to heal many injuries and diseases. But now that the material basis for it exists, like any technology, it can be used to improve the lives of everyone or it can be used to oppress.
But both outcomes are the result of human activity.
I dig your conclusions, but I think that it becomes difficult to convince people when we ourselves are operating on a faulty basis. The reality of human alienation from nature is not an essential part of nature, it is the product of human activity. It took work to create it and it will take work to reverse it. Alienation is a condition of class rule.
But the real basis for it, which in our society is laws and culture underwritten by state violence, is not as permanent as the fact that it is the labor and time of all the workers that create what is actual. And if we want to change the conditions that alienate us from the rights and privileges that our labor creates, then we have to be able to reflect on reality as it is. We have to not just make mystified statements but really understand every step in the process of the logic that we will use to inform the actions needed for liberation.
Taking for granted our alienation as natural and not imposed, is a step in the logical process that informs our subjugation.
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And that needs to start with electing representatives and a President that respects and will restore our Constitution.
This goes farther than Trump. Our Constitution was damaged and tattered well before that, which is part of what enabled Trump and his admin to rip it to shreds.
The President getting to decide what laws are enforced and which aren't is kind of insane. The pardon power was generally fine before this, but was clearly open to abuse.
Hillary broke the law with her private email server, but everyone else, including W and Trump and Hegseth broke that same law. It just wasn't enforced until they decided to hit Hillary with it specifically.
If there are laws we shouldn't enforce, we should just get those laws off the books. And clearly we need to rein in Presidental power. We left a whole lot of trust that the office would be run in good faith, and regardless of party that's generally been true, with exceptions. The is the first administration that hasn't given a single fuck about the American people.
I feel like every previous President was brought in and made to understand that it's a china shop, and they need to not act like a bull, and then were given very specific and explicit reasons why for each situation. There's a reason each predecessor did what they did, and those actions were generally done under the advisement of some very smart people with solid research, and if you're going to break with that previous decision, you better be really damn sure of what you're doing.
This is the first administration that's come in and told each of those advisors to fuck right off. The biggest plate to break so far is the idea of Due Process. When I Google the phrase "Due Process", the first thing that comes up should absolutely not be about immigrants. This isn't a law centered on immigrants or anything about immigration specifically. You know the reason that immigration comes up as the top result for "due process" in 2025.
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If there are laws we shouldn’t enforce, we should just get those laws off the books.
I believe it's a fairly sane and desirable that we hold people accountable for arguably mishandling classified information (regardless of intention to mishandle) and sidestepping established procedures to communicate in an official capacity. It's very reckless behavior and many people were involved in enabling this behavior.
I couldn't find a source on George W. Bush violating the same law and invite clarification, but I'd just like to say that I imagine that we can manage equitable and reasonable enforcement of the law as a society. Not all laws are made equally, but some are pretty sensible.
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that's a lot of words to say what Carlin said much simpler
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Yeah. This is literally just quoting Carlin and then saying we need to change the system after.
Part the OP is saying verbatim is around 3:30
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It's a failure of the system as a whole. If the rights are described as inalienable as a fact of the law then any president who tries to take those rights away should ideally be stopped by the courts.
Instead we have courts that say "hmmm it's pretty clear they can't do this so how can I make up some absolute nonsense to say it's totally ok for them to do it...."
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It is worse than that. The shadow docket is pretty much the judicial version of "neener-neener, I can't hear you!"
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normally you'd have a congress that flexed its power to stop the President from touching rights at all, but over time the Executive has become more and more powerful and Congress more and more impotent.
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I think this is the defect of a 2 party system, and the fact that it incentivizes party above body (of government)
Congress and the executive should want to fight for their respective bodies' power, in a vacuum, to ensure they have the maximum effect in their position, whicb would lead to them fighting eachother on overreach.
But with parties, the executive and his party's members in congress have the same goals. And since congress has minority representation while the executive does not, in order to maximize those goals, a majority party with the presidency is incentivized to increase executive power at the cost of legislative, to increase the parties goals, and minimize the effect of the minority parties power to hinder them.
This would return to the norm whenever you had an opposing congress, if it werent for the executive veto/ signatory powers, meaning a president with a 1/3 minority in congress can prevent the return of power to the legislative.
And then, when the congress and president of the other party align, they have no reason to lessen the power the other side pushed towards the executive, and and continue to push for the same transfer to tbe executive to increase their efficacy.
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...we did build that system. We are currently in that system, which has been corrupted by a criminal and terrorist organization called the Republican party
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Yes. And this is why rights are lost as soon as you lower your guard.
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Pretty words, but no system is self enforcing. What's going on now has taken the collective agreement of thousands of bad actors, over decades, to enact.
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true, but I think the system must be afraid. we need the public to have solidarity and see beyond their privilege. the American individualist ideology is a poison.
The moment the state tries to fuck over anyone, the whole nation should stop to a halt.
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Yup. This is the basic principle of anarchism.
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If voting could change anything vital, it would be illegal.
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Pay attention.
The GOP has been trying to stop people from voting for years.
The GOP loves when people say "both sides are the same."
That was Trump's big message in 2016; he was outside the system and would shake things up.
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You pay attention.
The GOP doesn't want to stop all people from voting. Just the poor ones. They still draw their supposed legitimacy from the electoral process.
The GOP loves when people say "both sides are the same."
Umm... no. Also: that's a horrible way to boil down legit critique of electoralism.
That was Trump's big message in 2016; he was outside the system and would shake things up.
Yeah. He used the myth of electoralism being in the interest of the working class.
I'm as much against far right governments as you are. The difference is that you Complain about individuals not voting the right way instead of asking yourself if the system is already rigged in favour of the ruling class.
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If voting was pointless, they wouldn't be working so hard to stop people from doing it
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It gives them the illusion of legitimacy. Also: there's more countries in the world than the so-called "US".
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See, we've been trying to do that, build an ideal system, real hard for a very long time but the only, only, absolutely tried and true only method to get there is via democracy. And people keep voting the fucking strip away all rights guys into power.
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Welcome to Anarchism :)
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No, give me all the rights, I'm good, I swear.
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Rights are not given, they're taken.
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There are only two systems in which rights cannot be taken away. A system with no rights in the first place, or a system with no living beings to have rights.
The point of inalienable rights, is they are the rights which must always be fought for and protected no matter the cost.
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I think this is the one key question about any elected government. We would need to make sure that representatives are truly accountable, not just replaced. We have corporate manslaughter legislation after all.
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Constitutions are just a "we promise we wont oppress you" pinky promise. Laws are nothing but the words of people. It wouldn't mean anything if nobody (especially those in power) respect those words anymore.
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George Carlin put it pretty well, imo.
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especially if the good president, is an old guard nominee, otherwise republican lite nothing will change. they keep the status quo of the oligarchs, and groups like AIPAC.
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A lot of our so-called "rights" simply express the fact that we have money.
Can we drive a car? Yes, because it costs money and we have that money. Can we go to school? Yes, again, because it costs money and we have that money. Can we go on holidays to a foreign country? Yes, again, because it costs money and we have money. Same for lots of other things.
The people have money because companies need to pay them if they want people to work at their companies. That's what gives people power. The fact that they are needed in the economy. No kind of law is causing this; simple necessity is.
It's the collapsing labor market that is causing a seeming decline in our rights. It's not Trump's fault (well, also trump's fault, since he made it much worse, but the issue started years earlier) that people are experiencing hardships, because of the collapsing labor market.
The solution would be to accept that the labor market is collapsing (because very few things can be done against that) and start accepting people for being people, independent of how much work they perform. In other words, stop glorifying "hard workers" and start seeing the value in people themselves.
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Sorry, but there's always going to be a power structure.
Tribal people shunned those who didn't fit in and forced them out.
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The trick is to build a system with good checks and balances and an informed populace willing to uphold those rules.
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I don't know who said it, but it goes something like this.
"Every time you build a fool proof system, the fools get more creative."
You can't force people to be 'well informed' or even aware of their own interests.
There was plenty of evidence that Donald Trump was a complete idiot and a scoundrel available in 2015. a decade later and there are still tens of millions of people who will tell you he's a genius and a moral exemplar.
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Ackshyually, humans have experimented with various forms of social organization for most of prehistory and history. The current system of states with rigid laws and extreme enforcement is very recent. People used to transition between different hierarchies and systems, even seasonally. Not to mention many peoples would self-organize. In some Northest-American tribes, it was common sport to make fun of leaders and not take them too seriously. Some Sumerian city states had massive assemblies instead of high councils.
I HIGHLY recommend "The Dawn of Everything" by David Graeber to EVERYBODY.
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Well if anyone is tired of posting about it and wants to do something about it message me
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Absolutely incandescent!
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This makes sense, there are no abuses of human rights in the US it is just that some people do not meet the conditions to receive privilages like basic healthcare, food assistance or fair treatment by state employees.
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America, where everyone is equal, and some are even more equal than others!
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Someone woke up? Good thing and welcome
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I agree!
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We need amendments to restrict the power over civil rights. Essentially no civil rights law can be removed or superseded by additional laws. And that no laws can be passed to allow exception to this law.
Also we need clear penalties for failing to follow laws. Not just for presidents but any members of any level of political seats. Specific infraction and penalties.
A 3 strike policy. 3 such acts and removal of office followed by a new election in 6 months or a year.
Also laws against aipac and corporate money in politics. Banned. Permanently. No exceptions. No ability to change laws to change this either.
We keep learning that when we don't have strict laws and strict guidelines for insuring those laws are followed, bad actors will (always) take advantage. And the laws are useless unless they are enforced in an unbiased way.
Also Congress members for states cannot override voted on laws. The people supercede the elected officials whims.
We also need ways to remove people from office during their term.
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The problem with being unable to change or supercede laws is the hubris to assume the laws passed are perfect for all time. We have all of human history to prove we are not the peak of civilization.
Getting bribery out of politics by removing lobbying and campaign finance is probably the best thing we can do. Having every politician run with the same amount of money and banning retired politicians from working as lobbiests or board members after office would do the most for eliminating corruption.
Even if you make laws unrepealable or changable, if the government won't enforce it then it solves nothing. We have no higher entity to complain to and get enforcement or satisfaction. And if there is some higher entity empowered and capable, we then put all trust that whatever is enforcing law can never be corrupted or coerced or have its own adjenda.
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I can't see any scenario where civil rights laws would ever need removed. So I still suggest making those permanent and unchangeable.
Other laws can have time restrictions.
But I worry they will just get nulled when no one is looking.
For example, let's say we can ban cooperate pac money in politics and make the law unchangeable for 20 years.
In 20 years. Most people have forgotten why corporate pac money was such a problem.
And in that time, corps have been buying people on the down low. Waiting to get this law removed.
So it gets removed.
And again no one really notices until we have another situation like the present one. Which can take a pretty long time to fully mature. 10 to 20 years. Or even longer.
And then again, it becomes near impossible to ban because those in power are all bought.
The cycle will just keep repeating itself.
Some laws do need to be permanent. And unchangeable.
That's literally what the Constitution is.
Civil rights and taking bribes from corporations illegal should be permanent laws.
As well as putting caps on donations. Restricting law makers from owning stocks or owning companies. Or being on the board of any companies.There will never be any scenario where these type of laws should be lifted.
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Lack of text or a link to (archived) source creates a usability issue: we can't quote the text without pointless bullshit like retyping it or OCR. :::spoiler Other issues when image lacks text alternative such as link
- usability: can't reflow text to varied screen sizes or vary presentation (size, contrast) or modality (audio, braille), we can't find by text content
- accessibility: some users can't read this due to misleading alt text, users can't adapt the text for dyslexia or vision impairments, systems can't read the text to them or send it to braille devices
- searchability: the "text" isn't indexable by search engine in a meaningful way
- fault tolerance: no text fallback if image breaks.
Contrary to age & humble appearance, text is an advanced technology that provides all these capabilities absent from images. ::: Text is useful.
As I wrote in a deeper comment, the post mistakes the concept of & philosophy behind inalienable rights with legal rights.
The Enlightenment Era thinkers who developed these ideas were entirely familiar with governments legally oppressing their people. The most common governments at the time were absolute monarchies justified by divine right.
To challenge unjust governments, they worked on a more rational definition for legitimate authority. They settled on the idea that governments exist for the people & have legitimate authority only when they protect the inalienable liberties & rights of all people. When a government lacks legitimacy, the people have a right to alter it to or replace it with a legitimate one.
So, while a government can suppress inalienable rights, no government can legitimately (ie, should) do so: that would be immoral (and a violation of natural law they claimed). It's moral & political philosophy concerning legitimacy.
Contrary to the post, people do have inalienable/universal/inherent rights: those inform us whether a government is legitimate. It's still up to the people to obtain legitimate government.
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"Do you agree?!?" Lol. Yes I actually do but this has some real bot energy which makes it feel a bit weird. Like this post isn't actually genuine and even though I agree with it, it only exists to try and get dissenters in so people will argue and become more divided. Feels icky like a reddit post
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Okay, you've identified a problem. What is your solution?
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Bottom up democratic structures. Remove the unitary executive and make all representatives instantly recallable.
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The way the question is worded they are in the process of gaining agreement. Trying to address an issue with others when you haven't gained agreement on the actual problem ends up taking longer with more of a mess and things getting pushed in every direction with some people not knowing if it has already been accomplished. Say Terry thinks the problems is solved when you oust the Tyrant, Jerry thinks the problem is over when you get the supreme Court balanced, and Barry thinks the problem is solved when we stop having federal troops deployed in cities. Jerry, Terry, and Barry all think they are working together, but are all pushing in different directions and ultimately will achieve none of the goals described by poster. Getting them all to agree on a problem, makes it clearer to know when the goal has been completed. (Hopefully). Granted soon as you start to implement anything, shit is going to hit the fan anyways, because the easiest way to power is by tearing down others, not building others up.
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Sortition sounds like an interesting idea (TL;DR - make congress work more like a jury where randomly selected citizens make the laws instead of career politicians):
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The president only enforces rights, or not. Congress changes rights.
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In theory, but the Congress and Court are saying, hey President, whatever you do is fine.
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The checks and balances were destroyed when the supreme court elevated the president over the law. And even before that money and corporate interest had influenced the laws against the people.
The supreme court is corrupt. We know that, yet nothing was done. The president is a criminal, yet nothing was done. The elections are influenced and the election law is outdated and unjust. Yet nothing was done.
It gets worse under Republicans and next to nothing changes under Democrats.
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Lemmy: "SOCIALISM!"
I'm listening. How does that economic system stop money and power from flowing to the top?
Lemmy: "FUCK YOU!"
If you are angry about capitalism, an economic system, why are you not angry about democracy, the political system that has failed to reign in the economic system?
Lemmy: "GO FUCK YOURSELF!"
Snarky, I know. But I have never once got an answer to those questions. Not once.
(Education is my answer to all of the above. Fight amongst yourselves.)
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How does that economic system stop money and power from flowing to the top?
By having no top. In socialism, there are no capitalist owners, and the only way to make money is through having a job and its corresponding salary. If you don't believe socialism reduces the flow of money from "bottom" to "top", you can check empirical data. Top 1% in modern capitalist Russia has above 20% the total income of the country. In Soviet times, they possessed 4% of the total income. This is a marked reduction in the money flowing to the top.
If you are angry about capitalism, an economic system, why are you not angry about democracy, the political system that has failed to reign in the economic system?
Because democracy under capitalism is a lie. Having a powerful owning class whose interests oppose those of the majority ensures that the interests of the majority will be ignored.
Now you have answers
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In Soviet times, they possessed 4% of the total income. This is a marked reduction in the money flowing to the top.
Didn't the vanguard class of ruling elites oppress everyone else with their authoritarian power & political inequality? Not sure a more oppressive model of privilege is the one to uphold. More than a few would much rather take economic inequality over that bullshit.
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"How" is ambiguous; you describe a system that have not those issue, but not how to get this system. If we agree on the following :
- the economy structure the social system
- the way we struggle will structure the society of tomorrow
- this issue are worldwide
Then we need to organize internationally in order to get the mean of production, and without a "top" that could become ruling class. I think that's pretty much describe revolutionary unionism or anarcho-syndicalism.
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Shalafi: mmmm daddy I do love eating poopies
Lemmy: yes my child suck it all up
Shalafi: oh boy next I'm going to murder puppies
Lemmy: dude what the fuck
Snarky, I know. But I have never once had an answer to my question. Not once
(My answer to the above is the following. Femboy Friday. No more strife only life mrow)
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I’m listening. How does that economic system stop money and power from flowing to the top?
It doesn't. Money will continue flowing to the top, just like the blood in your body will continue flowing to your head. What's important is that it also flows downwards again, to make a full circle. That's why we need wealth taxes.
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Oh I remember when GRRM used to write GoT. Those were the days.
"stick 'em with the pointy end"
I read your abbreviation as IASIP and was thinking that this was pretty deep compared to their usual content.
The whole purpose of buying the crown in the first place was to get the plebs nice and tipsy so we can take 'em to a nice comfortable place in the fields and, you know, they can't refuse, because of the implication.