Have you seen progressive people be discriminatory either intentionally or unintentionally and if so in what way?
Have you seen progressive people be discriminatory either intentionally or unintentionally and if so in what way?
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Removed by Moderator — Modlog
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I, too, resent the man in the mirror.
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liberals trying to cancel me
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Yes. I've even seen progressive people being quite racist. Political beliefs don't always line up with how people act in everyday life.
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Constantly. Usually it takes the form of reducing topics to binary choices and/or purity tests.
- "You're either with me or against me / You're either part of the solution or part of the problem"
- Where "part of the solution" means doing exactly, and only exactly what they think you should be doing.
- "If you don't satisfy all of my impossible requirements, you're
as bad asa nazi" - "We only agree on 99 out of 100 things, so clearly you're not to be trusted"
- etc
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i really have never encountered someone like this.
unless the 'purity test' is being anti genocide or pro trans rights. you know, basic fundamental shit.
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Genocide is a term that is both over and under used. There are currently about six genocides ongoing. I don't see the point in trying to call someone out on it because no one is actually doing anything for or against it outside of a very small number of people.
If someone asks me if I'm anti genocide I assume they mean something they specifically consider a genocide and they are trying to use this as bait to get me to out myself in some way. They don't actually expect I'm personally participating or countering it in any way.
Trans rights also is a loaded term now because there are a LOT of individual rights Trans people are needing to fight for all in parallel. It's better to be specific.
Sure someone who says they are against trans people is awful, but I find folks set the bar in different places and use that to start an argument. The easiest example is, what age should someone be allowed to transition which is an intensely challenging question to answer even on a medical level.
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I need the right to take hormones, but I dont need the right to take my dick to the ladiesz bathroom. Does this make me a Nazi?
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There are thick, uncrossable lines, and there are a lot of people who don't mind crossing them. You cannot compromise with a bigot. You cannot find common ground with a person who would subjugate you, or someone who sees you as less than human.
We can have disagreements about many political issues, but when you are standing next to pedophiles, rapists, fascists, and bigots, you shouldn't be surprised to be called a Nazi.
So the question becomes, what is the test of "purity"?
- "You're either with me or against me / You're either part of the solution or part of the problem"
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I put a poster up for a women/trans/non-binary inclusive group in an anarchist cafe, with their approval, only to get a literal essay from the cafe the next day about the miss-use of a word pertaining to our trans inclusivity. I can't recall what the "right" word was supposed to be, and the poster's verbiage was already researched/reviewed by trans people in the group. Due diligence was done.
Queue people leaving the group because we didn't feel it was necessary to print new posters. They felt we should be less hostile to "people taking the time to educate." Yeah, I made a few comments.
But you know what? I much prefer that to the kind of shit I had to deal with in conservative spaces. I worked on a couple political campaigns, had back room discussions where people don't "educate" when you're not one of them, they insult and back-stab you.
I can at least see the essay as an attempt to share knowledge, to include rather than exclude, even if it was from a place of self-importance and ignorance.
The friction I see in progressive spaces is usually about making things more equitable. It can be poorly thought out, but no one's perfect. I prefer flawed inclusivity to hostile exclusivity.
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In American leftism there is a definite divide between black and white.
For example second wave feminism is often thought of as Women seeking entry into the workplace, but at the same time black feminists were trying to leave the workforce and take care of their own kids.
The labor movement has an explicitly racist history. A fact that Capitalists often took advantage of by leveraging black scabs who were often ineligible for union membership. Eugne Debs identified this as a problem with the socialist movement.
I'm not saying that racism is common among today's lefties, just that white lefties are often ignorant of black American life and especially black radical thought and activism.
If you are vexed by Bernie Sanders' struggle with black voters, you're probably not very familiar with this history.
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Yes, I have a friend who is extremely progressive but is still very much a slut shamer. She really looks down with disgust on women who like sex or have more boyfriends than she deems acceptable.
She also shows bigotry against other groups of people. Although she would never in a million years look down on someone because of their skin colour, she absolutely takes on a tribalistic Us vs Them mentality for other reasons. An example is the war in Ukraine started by Russia. Did Russia start it? Yes. Is Putin evil? Yes. Are there many Russians who support this war? Yes. BUT... not every Russian person in the world is inherently evil, not all of them want this, many are victims trapped in a system that will literally throw them out the god damned window if they dissent. And my friend absolutely fucking hates Russians. All of them. No empathy about the nightmare situation so many of them are stuck in. It has gotten so bad that she has literally started to hate her chickens that are a Russian breed. She has started assigning negative human traits to them and is insisting that they are negative and bad because they are Russian chickens. It's honestly getting ridiculous.
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Holy shit, I would unironically start trolling her... Give her chickens Jewish names so when she starts badmouthing them, she might have a clue she's just being a bigot, exactly like Nazis in that respect of, "everyone of a group I don't like is guilty".
I'd start giving her nicknames of officers that stood over concentration camps if she continued.
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Pulling the cultural appropriation card too much perhaps? Especially for cultures they do not understand beyond surface level. Just because someone is wearing something from another culture, it doesn’t mean it’s being appropriated. Obviously negative appropriation exists especially for instances where it is being done for profit. The problem is sometimes some people are reactionary and are too quick to label something as such without looking into it first.
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I know there's like, actual cultural appropriation...but at this point I wish it never entered the cultural conversation at all tbh because I feel like it became weird bioessentialist shit. Like, just actively telling people what they're allowed to be interested in is based on genetics. Not to mention cases where mixed race people have been assaulted over perceived hair appropriation (the idea that you can tell what race people are by looking at them is monoracist.)
At my most charitable, I think people are forgetting that most people aren't influencers or public figures?
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I left a Discord server I really enjoyed being on because they absolutely lost the plot with cultural appropriation bullshit.
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So it depends how you define progressive.
As a PoC I have certainly witnessed racism from white, black and Hispanic liberals. At its worst the democratic party can feel like a clubhouse for non regressive white people and the largest minority groups in the country. No one else really has a seat at the table. Is that really progressive?
I've moved on to assessing peoples worldview as either inclusionary or exclusionary. Unfortunately most people, left or right, have an exclusionary world view.
Exclusionary here means a failure to acknowledge the universal sanctity of human dignity. Nearly everyone is focused on themselves or their group exclusively. Some in ways that are more harmful than others.
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Absolutely. No one hates the left more than slightly different brands of the left.
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"Progressive" describes a position, not a person. A person can be many things. A person can hold contradictory viewpoints, and fully believe two incompatible thoughts at the same time. It's tragically naive to assume that people are rational or consistent.
Can a person think they are progressive and also be a bigot? Of course a person can. Everybody is the hero in their own story.
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Good examples from others but I also want to bring up microaggressions. Basically, small things that add up, like a white woman gripping her bag tightly when a black man enters an elevator, or a white man crossing the street because a Latino guy is approaching who looks a little "gangy." Usually they aren't that progressive (e.g. they support diversity but critical race theory is a bridge too far).
That said, prejudice is something we all have and is part of human nature. It protects us historically from things like snakes and spiders who may not be venomous but on the off chance they are, better safe than sorry. Prejudice leads to stereotypes, stereotypes lead to discrimination. Conscious effort is needed to overcome that, and progressives do that better than not but no one is fully immune to your natural instincts.
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A lot of microaggressions are assumed to be about one thing but are actually something else. Maybe the white woman clutched her purse because he was a man. Maybe she was just moving it closer in a tight space. Maybe he reminded her of someone specific. Sure, it is probably race and if the same person does it multiple times it could be confirmed. And yes, it is totally reasonable for a black man to see a bunch of white women clutching purses and assume there is a pattern even if not every single one was due to racism.
Microaggressions are one of those things that are real while also frequently misread because it is impossible to infer intent from a single vague action. Better to assume the minority/oppressed group is right, and if accused of something in error just let it go.
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Just head on over to the FuckCars community. Tons of ableism in there to witness.
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Like?
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I got banned from there for calling out their bullshit.
sure I was an asshole, but those people are so far up their own asses I didn't think they'd notice.
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Oh yeah big time. I see it primarily in discussions about religion. Progressive people like to act as though any Christian has the same mentality as the Westboro Baptist church cult. Its a real bummer.
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Is there supposed to be some equivalence between being politically progressive and not being discriminatory?
The way I see it is we're all equal opportunity assholes, it's just the context that differs. Ones politics does not make one a paragon of virtue.
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Generally being more aware of something means less ignorant behavior like discrimination. Not a guarantee, but if someone is smart enough to understand racism they should be able to grasp sexisim and so on.
Again, not a guarantee and there are plenty of people who are progressive about a limited number of topics.
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I’ll use myself as an example.
There were some guys having an argument in another room, and it got increasingly intense. They were speaking some kind of Arabic. I thought they were genuinely mad at each other, but then one of them mentioned an athlete’s name and started listing what sounded like stats.
While telling this story at a party, I said something like “Arabic is a very angry-sounding language.” I noticed someone’s eyes get large, and I didn’t realize until then how racist I had unintentionally been.
Later, I thought more about it. Any language that you don’t understand sounds bad if people are having an emotionally charged conversation. It didn’t occur to me until then how easy it is to be thoughtless and racially insensitive.
I generally try not to be an asshole, but I messed up big time. I have no idea who he was, but I’ll always be grateful to the guy whose eyes got big. He gave me a much-needed reality check.
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“Arabic is a very angry-sounding language.”
Arabic speaker here and this sounds like the most harmless statement of all time. I mean you're right in that it was probably more about the emotionally charged concepts than Arabic as a language, but still, I think this is one of those "white people getting mad at other white people when the minority in question wouldn't think much of it" things.
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I dunno', unless I hear shouting and those typical inflections of, "I'm REALLY pissed off", I'll only ever think an argument in French is going to lead to rough makeup sex.
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lol they were definitely invested in the topic. They were shouting and occasionally slamming things around.
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Tbf, Mandarin sounds aggressive AF even tho I speak mandarin, every sentence sound like a military command.
Cantoese, on the otherhand, sounds very passive-aggressive and condesending instead.
What I mean is, when I told my mother I wanna jump off a bridge and kms, she told asked me if I want a ride to the bridge, "we can leave right now, the car is outside" (spoken in Cantonese), and then laughs like its funny somehow. Wtf mom?!?
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I've seen liberal POCs say racist shit about White people more times than I can count.
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I'm progressively discriminating. Everyone is equally annoying and I hate you all. 😁
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I have a lot of first hand experience with it via dating. In terms of outward Appearance and how I present I am an average looking straight cis white male. Mentally, in addition to being on the spectrum, that's not really how I identify or am wired though. If anything, I'm probably more lesbian based on who I seem to get along with and am attracted to, lol.
As I am sure we are all (hopefully) aware there are a lot of men with very problematic behaviors (which is an entire other complex topic). As a result, within the liberal sphere I exist in it is very socially acceptable to shit on or otherwise have a negative bias against people that present like I do in a way that would not be acceptable if it were against another social group because of what they are.
I have had a number of interactions and conversations where my point of view/input/feelings/etc. were more or less dismissed or ignored by women when if I were a woman saying the exact same thing it wouldn't be. I have also had people flat out say "that's a very man thing to say" as a when what I am saying conflicts with their world view or how they feel and they can't engage with it logically anymore.
Please note, I am leaving a ton of intricate context out of the above to try and avoid having to write a novel. I understand why women have the bias/reaction towards men who present like I do, and why it's necessary. In the examples I am thinking of, these are women who know me, not strangers or randos. When discussing things I do my absolute best to have conversations in good faith and on the merits/logic of what is being said.
I don't like pulling the autism card or saying that's just how I feel, but I find that people are so unused to interacting with someone like me, rather than engage in the nuance of my experience and how it very much contradicts their world view, it's much easier for them to find a reason to be dismissive of it. I also realize that from a third party perspective without any context my autistic behavior is indistinguishable from gas lighting.
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Yeah, tribalism will always be a scourge on mankind
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If you see a polite obviously rural person who has not said anything remotely questionable, a common comment is "but you probably wouldn't want to know their political opinion" or "you probably don't want their take on minorities or women". To be folksy is to guarantee progressives brand them as right wing racist sexist bigots.
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I've given up caring about all that shit. If people want to throw LGBTQ+ people into the line of fire to protect their moral fuckall stance on Gaza, fuck them as much as the ones abducting children.
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Are we counting speciesism? Because "progressive" people are still generally a bunch of cruel, violent murderers.
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On larger scale , Very distressing amounts "men are oppressed ackshually wamenz have it tꝏ gꝏd they need to be brought back to their place ‼️" laundered thru progressive sounding language (example : people who think "(trans)?(misandry|androphobia)" exists)
A frequent frustration is recursive guilt-by-association.
"Yeah so okay we do align on everything however you refuse to denounce your friend who didn't really do anything but he is a fan of a controversial figure who also didn't really say or do much but they are friends with a bad person so... Get lost?"
Another is translation based on the assumption that one's assumptions are universal.
"You said you think Terry Davis was a technical genius for his OS. Honestly his work is nothing compared to a modern OS. I think so so therefore you must think so, and so you must mean something else. What you are really praising is his extremist christianity."
The latter one is more of a human trait. That's why basically every conservative will immediately suspect you pf something if you start badmouthing religions (at least their religion), even with totally accurate critique they happen to not know much about.