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3w ago

Linux phones are more important now than ever

E: apparently it needs to be said that I am not suggesting you switch to Linux on your phone today; just that development needs to accelerate. Please don't be one of the 34 people that replied to tell me Linux is not ready.

Android has always been a fairly open platform, especially if you were deliberate about getting it that way, but we've seen in recent months an extremely rapid devolution of the Android ecosystem:

The closing of development of an increasing number of components in AOSP.
Samsung, Xiaomi and OnePlus have removed the option of bootloader unlocking on all of their devices. I suspect Google is not far behind.
Google implementing Play Integrity API and encouraging developers to implement it, which prevents apps from the Google Play Store from being downloaded without a system-wide OS-level account login. Notably the EU's own identity verification wallet requires this, in stark contrast to their own laws and policies, despite the protest of hundreds on Github.
And finally, the mandatory implementation of developer verification across Android systems. Yes, if you're running a 3rd-party OS like GOS you won't be directly affected by this, but it will impact 99.9% of devices, and I foresee many open source developers just opting out of developing apps for Android entirely as a result. We've already seen SyncThing simply discontinue development for this reason, citing issues with Google Play Store. They've also repeatedly denied updates for NextCloud with no explanation, only restoring it after mass outcry. And we've already seen Google targeting any software intended to circumvent ads, labeling them in the system as "dangerous" and "untrusted". This will most certainly carry into their new "verification" system.

Google once competed with Apple for customers. But in a world where Google walks away from the biggest antitrust trial since 1998 with yet another slap on the wrist, competition is dead, and Google is taking notes from Apple about what they can legally get away with.

Android as we know it is dead. And/or will be dead very soon. We need an open replacement.

E2: thank you to everyone stopping by from Hacker News, Reddit, etc. to check out the threadiverse. I hope you'll stick around for a while. Check out https://phtn.app/ and the Voyager and Blorp apps for a nicer UI. Fuck Spez!

433 comments

My next phone will run Linux, even if it is inconvenient.
As soon as this phone is paid off, I'll be changing from Google Fi as well. Which sucks because it's hella cheap.
- I’m with you, I’ve switched all my computers to Linux for similar reasons. I bought an android phone recently and put Linux on that, although still some things to iron out such as sound and microphone input but it’s working well otherwise. Looking forward to when I can ditch my iPhone.
  
  same. There is one windows computer still in this house and it's unplugged. Everything else is Linux, Android, or FreeBSD based.
  
  I've switched as well but didn't realize you could put Linux on an android device. Is it a specific distro and can you throw it on an old android tablet?
  
  what phone and os do you have? im currently shopping and have always been on android; im looking for recommendations on both phones and os <3
- What options are you looking into as far as a Fi replacement? I'm also on Fi and want to ditch them, and the Pixel soon.
  
  I'm on Mint.
  T-Mobile acquired them, per the usual bullshit, but I get 15GB a month with unlimited talk and text for "$20" a month. The catch is that you pay yearly in bulk for that price. Had it a year and change. Been solid.
  
  I'm likely going to go to t-mobile as they're cheap from what I understand and they make up a big part of the network that google leases, along with (i think) US Cellular, or something similar.
  That said, I've got about a year to decide, unless someone decides to hire me and then I can pay my phone off early.
  
  I like us mobile alot. Well priced too
- You can't sideload in Linux.
  
  On linux it's just called running an executable
  Edit: As a less snarky answer, you can run Android apps natively on linux by installing Android OS in a container using something like ~~Anbox~~ Waydroid.
- Mint and US Mobile are both good alternatives to Fi. US Mobile is a bit more flexible since you can use any of the major US carriers.
- As soon as this phone is paid off
  What? People finance phones? 🤣
  
  Yes, some of us have good credit.
  
  I don't but it doesn't mean I'm better than other people who do

My next phone is definitely going to be a Linux phone. I don't care if it's ready. I'm ready.
- Same here.
- My feelings on point.

Unfortunately there's a lot(!) to do to make Linux enjoyable on a phone. I bought a Pinephone some years ago. And in addition to the slow hardware, the entire software/desktop experience isn't great. While everyone else has instant messengers, Linux doesn't have connected standby and emails and messages just don't arrive unless the screen is on. It wastes quite some power, and there are a bazillion small little quirks and annoyances and it's barely usable if compared to a regular smartphone. I think someone needs to invest quite some more time and money until this becomes a thing. I mean don't get me wrong, Linux and the low-level system is awesome. And it's brilliant on any server/laptop/desktop computer. It's just that there's so many things missing for a proper phone experience. And it's not just mildly inconvenient, but like people expect instant messages to be delivered...
- It seems like you read the title as "everyone needs to switch to Linux mobile right now" but that's not what it says.
  The point is, as you said, there's a lot of work that needs to be done, and that work is more important now than ever.
  
  Sure. It's just that the timeframe is a bit disheartening. To me... so all of this is highly subjective. We had the Nokia N900 in like 2009. And I was expecting to live the full Linux experience within a few years and those things to become a bit more affordable. And today it's almost 16 years later and it doesn't feel like we've come substantially closer. More recently we had Librem and Pine64 put some effort and publicity into it, and that's also been 5 years. The mobile/touch desktops made some good progress. PostmarketOS is kind of nice. But there are entire layers missing like the app framework in Android which enables such app lifecycles, connected standby... Sandboxing and a fine-granular permission system for proprietary apps (or just modern mainstream usage) is kind of in its infancy. And I'm not even sure if everyone is going to use Flatpak for everything. And all of those missing things are huge undertakings.
  So I'm not sure when to expect such an every-day phone... Maybe in 2030 or 2035? But that's kind of late if the headline is "more important now, than ever". Because all the while Google is moving more and more stuff from AOSP into their proprietary Play services and it's getting uncomfortable for me. We have a deadline with the Google messes with the allowed apps on a phone starting 2027. And my life includes more and more mandatory apps, or I have to forfeit taking part in society, culture, convenience or riding a train... This year, Google started giving the GrapheneOS devs a hard time... Now they're making it even more complicated.
  So of course not everyone has to use it, and I'm first of all concerned with my own wellbeing. But I really don't see a solution in the near future which is going to address the important issues if today and the next few years. So I'm a bit unsure if a Linux phone will come around and help me before it's too late, or if I need to find other ways to deal with it.
  
  So which is the best project to back?
- How cool would it be to out of nowhere see Valve come out with a SteamPhone based on Arch which does everything you ever hoped for and runs on high quality hardware including all the features that others took away (colour alert pixel, 3,5mm jack, replaceable battery), complete with dual boot or a containerised Android-mode for running apps that would never work like banking or eID. Would buy instantly.
- comparison is the thief of joy and it's unrealistic to expect a product of grass roots community effort to compare to a product that benefits from deep pockets that can afford the finest talent and a considerably long head start.
  
  I'm not sure. A phone is kind of a tool, same for a computer. Ideally we weigh our options (aka compare them) and pick which suits us best. And this grass roots effort isn't doing a half-assed job. I have almost everything available. I can do regular tasks, edit videos, do computer aided design, do heavy database stuff, run the bookkeeping for an entire mid-sized company, a server farm or almost anything I like with Free Software and Linux. I don't think a phone is fundamentally different and I kind of have the same high expectations for that niche. We're already doing great with lots of other things, both more niche and more ordinary stuff. And oftentimes it does not include money from tech giants.

Smart phones are simultaneously such a wonder of human engineering and have become such a disappointment of human greed.
This whole situation has made me just care less about my phone, and use it less in my life while I use Linux PCs much more.
I don't see my phone as a "computer" at this point, really. It's more of a communication appliance. If I'm launching an app that's not texting, calling, GPS, or music, it's probably a replacement for a website I'd normally use on a PC.
Linux phones could change this though. The idea of your PC being your docked phone would work great for most use cases. Unfortunately though, even though I would love it I don't really see the general public jumping at the chance to get back to the desktop experience. I could maybe see a little traction in the business world.
- I found myself using my phone less and less too, and to be honest, I'm even feeling healthier mentally. Portable devices were supposed to improve our life, not make it worse. Big tech did something really terrible to phones :(
  
  Oh same here! My reduced phone usage has been part of a much larger overall improvement in my well being and being able to live in the moment and be content.
  I recently saw a video from a harvard dude talking about how we NEED to be bored. It's when we fall into our baseline mental state and start thinking through shit and figuring life out. And not doing that can lead to anxiety and depression and other bad shit. Given my experiences, I certainly cannot disagree.
  https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=orQKfIXMiA8
- This is pretty much how I am. Use my desktop for important things. On weekends I try to not even have my phone on my person and I check it a couple times a day while it stays in the bedroom like a house phone. Life is so much better without it.
  I unfortunately still do like to take it with if walking/biking/driving but I wish I didn't. Id like to have another phone that only makes phone calls for that but has my same number. Its funny. When I was a kid we didn't even think about it because none of us had phones. Going on a random dirt bike ride miles away with nothing. Better (also unsafe) times.
  Im tired of smartphones consuming everyone's minds.
  
  Im tired of smartphones consuming everyone's minds.
  Resisting the standard smartphone addiction just makes the addiction of some others so much more apparent. My own wife is still pretty badly shackled to hers.
- Anywhere there is freedom and thoughtful development there are corporations waiting to capitalize on it and ruin it.

the vast majority of commenters here either have no direct experience with a Linux phone or have seen some shallow youtube "review" of a dude swiping the same two screens left/right and extrapolate a buncha shit that has no contact with reality.
presently, and in the foreseeable future, linux phones aren't an android alternative, they are just linux on the phone, i.e. they allow you to do linux shit on a handheld device.
like, the bleeding edge version of any variant (plasma mobile, gnome, phosh) isn't even close to an Android phone from like 2015, let alone a modern one.
and that's before we touch on the pillars of mobile tech like fluidity, battery efficiency, reliability, etc., none of those things are even in a remotely passable state, not to mention - using the thing to make calls. you are better off forgetting about the camera, as well.
and the reason is simple, not only is there a gargantuan discrepancy between evil corp's resources and the predominantly unpaid enthusiasts, each dev team's reimplementing shit that's already solved on another platform. apple doesn't have to do that. google as well.
then there's the idea that the javascript-backed Gnome - that has issues running fluidly on super-capable hardware - is the basis on a low-power device on which the linux mobile phone experience is built. reinventing solved shit, but in a stupid way - THREE FINGER swipe on a phone, really?
although there's a solid app base, the apps that are supposedly mobile friendly are few and far between, most are just downright unusable on a vertical screen and dog help you if launch an electron app. firefox, even with pmOS patches (useless without) is tiresome to use. you can forget about dating, ubering, banking, or even just using a messenger everybody else does.
if you're squeamish about flashing custom recoveries and ROMs, the e.g. pmOS install process is way, way, way more involved and failure prone. if you go with ubuntu touch or mobian, even more so.
finally, if you're talking about a device that you've grown accustomed to to the extent that you're using it subconsciously, swiping and multitasking and such whilst walking and dodging other pedestrians - no such thing exists over here.
I'm just tying this up because I keep reading about "switching", people are either delusional or misinformed, there's nothing (yet) to switch to.
get a couple of $50 ex-flaghips to play with, flash lineageOS on one and pmOS on the other and that should hold you over for a coupla years.
- apparently it needs to be said that I am not suggesting you switch to Linux on your phone today; just that development needs to accelerate.
  
  I'm not critiquing your post, I'm just clarifying to a buncha people who think otherwise that it's not an option.
  as to "it needs to accelerate", I have a grim outlook. the only way it's gonna do that is if there significant cash behind it and if everything non-essential is to be trimmed so that a functional platform can emerge. in our ever-enshittifying, greater-fool-theory investment climate, it's doubtful there loose capital with such an agenda, and I doubt such a thing is even on the horizon.
  same way with "desktop linux"; like, can you image where we'd be if every development effort is geared towards just one DE/WM, instead of tons of duplicated efforts and abandoned paths? yeah, good things eventually emerge from all the disjointed chaos, but eventually. and our joint assessment is that we're running outta time for the "eventual" part.
- if you're squeamish about flashing custom recoveries and ROMs, the e.g. pmOS install process is way, way, way more involved and failure prone. if you go with ubuntu touch or mobian, even more so.
  What?? PmOS and Ubuntu Touch both have very easy, foolproof installers. No idea about Mobian to be fair.
  I've been using only Linux-based mobile OS's since my first smartphone, and while you're right for a lot of the new breed made for the Pinephone and Librem, Sailfish OS and Ubuntu Touch are both perfectly useable for lots of people. Both have a decent app ecosystem and both support running Android apps to fill in the gaps (I've used both, the proprietary Jolla one is about as good as it gets and is practically seamless for like 99% of Android apps).
  Of course there's going to be people who will respond to me to say they can't possibly switch because of that one app that they and 5 other people in the world use, as though they're in any way relevant to what I've said. Just the same as when I post about people switching to Linux on the desktop and there's always that one Fusion 360 user who thinks everyone in the world also uses Fusion and so Linux can't possibly ever work for anyone.
  
  To be fair, Fusion 360 is pretty good... I hate to love it, to miss it. I can't wrap my head around the work flow in FreeCAD.
  But more often I am shocked by people saying they have to stay on windows because of Office... Like, the fuck? MS doesn't even want you to have that installed on your computer anymore and is pushing all web based, but that is going to keep you on Windows?? Nothing there is particularly hungry, just put it in a VM if you absolutely can't get by with one of the several great alternatives.
  
  This seems less of a problem in the US, but a lot of stuff here is done with some apps that won't run on these distributions.
  Banks have created identity provides which now the government also uses, and they're locked down to Android and iOS. Without these, making payments or do other stuff you need your identity for gets hard. And there are used by hundreds of thousands of people daily.
  If they can run, I'd switch over instantly, but now I'm pretty much stuck.
  
  UT and mobian need to be on stock, ancient versions of android prior to flashing. that is a challenge in an of itself, just check out what it takes to go from lineage A15 to stock A9. also, "easy" and "foolproof", please - you're not the target audience I'm addressing.
- There is always the option of waydroid to get android apps running on Linux. It's not a great solution, but a first stopgap measure to use services only available as apps.
  
  that's not a thing, presently. the OS has trouble running on its own and handling "native" apps, let alone introducing an emulation to the mix.
  of course, it can and does work to some extent - but not one where you depend on it, like you do with modern phones.
  
  That's a security nightmare
- Not to mention navigation and using the car screen.
  
  Osmin on PinePhone was... Tolerable. I'm just pleasantly surprised it worked okay with GPS being integrated into the modem.
  Takes a long time to get a GPS fix (like old standalone GPS units), but it's possible to provide A-GPS data to it.
- dating
  What dating apps work in Andorid? Lol
- Thank you. I get what OP is saying, but in general I'm so over the constant blind Linux fanboy hype train, like it's the solution to everything. One of the reasons I can't really stand to be on this instance unless I see something important enough to hit the front page. I'll take a remotely functional windows dist with customized features over pretty much any linux OS anyday in order to not struggle to complete the most basic, essential tasks.
  Life's too short to spend glued to Stackexchange instead of actually getting shit done.
  
  Spoken like someone that's never actually tried Linux. Enjoy your electron start menu, shill.
  
  What are these "most basic, essential" tasks you're struggling with? Outside of trying to get Discord to screen share nicely with Baulders gate 3 and the one time I accidentally overwrote the python 3 install and broken it, it has been pretty pain free. And I code with both .NET and with Android Studio, I do plenty of gaming, and some photo editing. All things beyond the most basic of tasks and I rarely run into issues.
  Have I broken a Linux install? Yep. But I've also bricked a handful of Windows systems poking around in the registry.

I'll consider a Linux phone as long as the following are met:
Battery life is decent (for me this means a minimum of 24 hours of light use and no mystery drains).
Reliable enough to not fear for my life when traveling.
UX is polished enough to not be painful.
Email notifications and communication apps work correctly (Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp).
If these are met, I'll buy whatever is available in a year or two.
- UX is polished enough to not be painful
  This one requirement I believe to be already met. Mobile kde, for one, is pretty nice. I believe the bottleneck of linux phones are really in the hardware
  
  UX is more than the UI, it's the entire User Experience (UX). That means scaled down desktop apps are not good substitutes for proper Mobile apps.
- communication apps work correctly (Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp).
  Google and Facebook will cooperate. WhatsApp will never work reliably.
  
  WhatsApp will never work reliably.
  Use the web version, although you'll need a phone to authenticate.
  Better yet, move out of whatsapp (i know, network effect).
- Yeah, I wish the Pine phone battery life was a bit better. Who knows, maybe it's improved since I last tried it

Send me back to the 90s with the flip phone. Old Nokia with a changeable battery, no malicious firmware that has spyware built in. It's just a phone.
- i tried to do this recently but it created a lot of friction in daily life. once the masses have moved on, it's hard to keep the old stuff, sadly. it's really frustrating.
  
  Yep, I tried going the dumbphone route and lasted about a month. I travel a fair bit for work, and it's almost impossible now without a smartphone.
  
  I get by alright without a smart phone. Over the years I've seen more and more "just scan this QR code to do such-and-such", and I ignore them. I think you're right that it is a lot of added friction compared to using a phone. A lot of stuff is instantly at your fingertips with your phone.
  But to be honest, I really truly think that a bit of friction is a good thing. Without it, we just slide helplessly into oblivion. Or, less metaphorically speaking, the friction turns an automatic decision into a deliberate one. The friction pushes people to think about their actions and choices a little bit. And that's generally a good thing - even if its a little bit harder.
- no malicious firmware that has spyware built in.
  Sure about that?
  
  spyware in a 90s phone ? Where it was even a miracle to be able to connect to Internet ? Yeah, they were able to pinpoint your position using the cell towers (which were less than today so not that precise) and the telecom know who and when you were calling but other than that...
- That's just all electronics outside of Linux at this point.

My next phone will be a ThinkPad because it has a SIM card slot.
- With the simcard slot can you use mobile data? If so thats amazing and I will be looking for that feature on my next device.
  
  yep you can. actually a lot of business laptops other than thinkpads also have one, it's very useful.
  
  I have a laptop with a SIM slot and I can use mobile data, SMS and even make voice calls. It doesn't support 5G though. Also the mobile hardware is crap, and I get like a 10th of the speed over 4G that I do on my phone, plus it chews through battery.
  So yeah, awesome feature but not as nicely implemented as I'd like. Hopefully the Thinkpad version is better!
  
  Probably, I will try that later.

Check out postmarketOS, a real Linux distro for phones with a 10-year life cycle goal and mainline kernel support. It’s not daily-driver ready for everyone, but it frees you from Google and OEM lockdowns. If we want an open mobile future, this is the project worth supporting.
- This looks great. If we collectively threw some funding behind a few worthy projects, even at 1-10€ per person, it could really accelerate development.
  
  Donation page link for those who'd also like to send some cash their way: https://opencollective.com/postmarketos
- Thanks for the suggestion! I was about to ask what non-Android Linux options are available.
- Sounds good. I wish there was something for samsung s23s.

Ubuntu Touch has a planned release for September 24th! Eager to see what devices have a full compatibility rating to know what I'll buy next

Framework has the chance to do something really funny...
- Would love to see it but that sounds significantly more difficult.
  
  I wonder what a SIM modem expansion card would look like
- Yeah I wish Framework, Tuxedo or Stillbook produced a Linux phone🤞
  
  They'd have a better chance banding together with other companies and communities and pool resources into one device/os combo.

I have a Pixel 9 Pro which is supposed to get security updates until 2031 but at the pace Google is closing Android down I wonder if it will even be viable to stay on an AOSP degoogled ROM until then.
I feel like the future is leading us to a place where we will have to reduce our mobile computing to a trusted but slow and unreliable main phone while keeping a secondary mainstream device for banking/government apps.
- I also think disconnecting the concepts of "pocket computer" and "always-on two way radio with location tracking and internet connectivity" are things you could put in different physical devices.
  
  Just gotta work out how to get internet on the pocket computer, so I can do mobile banking and cab bookings on the go.
- GrapheneOS

Currently i am looking for a Jolla phone https://commerce.jolla.com/products/jolla-community-phone
They are private company but seems to be very user friendly and carefull with their dev community. What do you think about them folks?
- I find it ironic that their webpage has meta and shopify trackers...
- not bad at all, i saw it on thelinuxexperiment video and I like it

I’m about a tech zero skill but I am at Lemmy for THIS news. Thank you for resisting complete shitification hegemony. Resist!

The main problem is that mobile OS is simply not useful without banking or government apps and they won't ever appear on FOSS systems because giving control to user is exactly the opposite of what's in their interest.
- I don't understand why people need banking apps on their phone. I only ever access my banking info from the PC...
  
  2fa with a banking app, a lot of banks work that way
  
  I had nothing but problems with banking apps. Can't do anything if location is off, or it doesn't like your IP, or if it thinks you have rooting software installed. And if it doesn't work right, no one at the bank knows how to help. I just stopped using them, eventually.
  
  and you can do it from your phone too using a browser other than android-chrome or ios-safari.
  
  In Sweden many parts of society requires an app called BankID. We authenticate getting mail packages, sign contracts, book a time in health care, etc with this app. It's needed everywhere. Buying a bus ticket. A phone without this app is not sufficient to function in swedish society.
  
  In my country, for all the banks I use, I need to have an app on my phone to access their website with my Linux computer.
  So a Linux phone would need to provide this as I can’t be without access to my accounts.
  
  If it is what the user wants, then it is a factor for adoption. It is a hard sell to say "yes it can only perform half the stuff you usually do with a phone, but you don't need that anyways". It comes across as condescending, too.
  
  it's not really a need, it's more an imposition. we're forced to do everything via the app
  
  Convenience and the ability to back outside the comforts of my own home.
  
  Many cheaper online banks rely on their mobile app. Your debit card will not work wirhout an in-app confirmation. There's no web interface ("not secure enough").
  Can I switch banks and make my life less convenient? Sure. Would I do it just to stick it to google? No.
- Which is an odd take as when I statted using "smart phones" not a singke.one supported apps from banks or government,.yet here we arw.

My next phone will be a Linux phone.
I was on board the Fairphone hype, and while I think they have a good message, I actually think Pine64 does exactly what they do - just without the flashy marketing. Fairphone still uses AOSP as the basis for their OSes, so there is still a risk of hardware lockout by Google. This is leaving alone other issues like no headphone jack and USB 2.0 for the latest generation's USB-C.
This is actually the same reason I think Ecosia won't succeed in the long term unless they build their own search engine. Luckily it looks like they've already started delivering results as of last month.
I should also mention that the PinePhone isn't Scott free from criticism either. Think I read somewhere that the camera is borked because the latest firmware or software update messed with the camera module functionality. No real fix for that soon, which sucks.
- I was on board the Fairphone hype, and while I think they have a good message, I actually think Pine64 does exactly what they do - just without the flashy marketing.
  Exactly what they do, except it's not a functional product. "Overpriced, underpowered, and half-finished" is the motto of pine64.
  
  Yeah, as I alluded to at the end of my post, Pine64 has a lot of issues with making their devices actually useful.
  They base a lot of their development on the community though. So if the community isn't up to it, then virtually no one at Pine64 is.
- I'm in the same exact boat.
  At some point when Google kills custom ROMs, everyone working on customs ROMs won't have anywhere else to go other than a Linux phone.
  
  Or they could just give up. I've ssen some people in my friend group who were really into custom ROMs, no GAPPS and all that. Most of them just gave up when buying a new phone. Probably because they felt like missing out on Features, Apps (Banking and such) or a good and working camera. Also it's a lot of work to put into developing custom ROMs and probably even more for Linux Phone Operating Systems. Pleople get older, have other priorities etc.. Ich would also like to use a Linux Phone as daily Driver but it is not really appealing in it's current state. So i really hope, you are right and perople will start working on that more. I'm probably just a bit frustrated from trying to get postmarketos working on some old phones. I am really stunned about how much effort has been put into that but the systems are so closed down and different, that it is a leally hard job to cover them all.
- More than the camera : 24hrs of battery life tops is what you should expect.

I'll switch away from Android when there's a good alternative, but I'm not very technical and need something with a nice GUI and an easy installation process. Hopefully Linux will offer something like that someday, but I don't think it's there yet.

Samsung, Xiaomi and OnePlus have removed the option of bootloader unlocking on all of their devices.
Got me worried (bc i have a newish oneplus phone) but apparently OnePlus is only doing that in China for now. Still not a good sign for the future...

I don't agree!
A linux phone, or any other open source alternative, has ALWAYS been more important than the ones we've got. Being locked into an eco-system, has always been bad for the regular user. It's about companies controlling people and the market, and it should never have to be a choice between a rock and a hard place.
I really wish that the Firefox phone had gained more support. And I wish that there will soon be a linux-phone for the regular person, all over the world.
But I guess people in general keep choosing to lock themselves in, by using Google and Apple...
- I really wish that the Firefox phone had gained more support
  KaiOS 4.x just dropped with Fx 128 I think. You will be on an underpowered flip phone, but that isn’t necessarily a bad thing…
- Android has been fairly "open" to the extent that I could do all the things I felt were important. But it's heading in a concerning direction.
- How is it bad for the user? Most people don't care and enjoy using their phones. Is it hurting them using iPhone or Android?
  
  I already wrote why it is bad. I could mention even more areas. Don't you know, it that why you ask? Or are you just trying to pick a fight?

There's still hope with AOSP. I could see something coming out of that before a Linux platform is ready.
- Like what?
  
  Like a fully open source Android ROM.
- I thought they already gutted much of AOSP. Like removing the dialer or contacts and stuff.
- My first thought was that a hard-fork of AOSP would be a much better solution than a Linux phone. But when you have locked down hardware, it doesn't matter, because you simply can't install it.
  I still think a community fork of AOSP would be more efficient than Linux mobile.

I just hope that this time we go Free Software and not committing the mistake of going Open Source for a 3rd time (BSD/UNIX AT&T; Android/Google). Unless we want to fall with the same stone yet once more.
Android going Open Source allowed Google to close Android once it got mature. It's a Trojan Horse, yet people still go Open Source and then complain when some company closes their source.
- How exactly does Free, non-open-source software prevent that?
  
  Because the license allows the closing of the code whenever a coder wants. BSD has that problem. It gives so much freedom that it can go against freedom itself. Microsoft took Kerberos (BSD), forked it and extended it. The MS fork gained ground against the BSD one and MS closed the source when its fork was the most used, pushing out the original BSD version.
  
  My bad for no specifying I didn't use a very specific naming indeed. Normally Open Source it's used for source code that's not copylefted or copylefted software that does not defend user freedom (Although Open Source OSS does not say that, indeed GPL by the OSS definition is open source software). On the other hand Free software is commonly used for GPL like software (although most of the so called open source software could also be named free software). Also free software does not refer to "gratis" software. For a better explanation you can check this and this.
  Anyways what I wanted to point out is that software that protects user freedoms and is copylefted (like GPL) protect users because the source code is protected from being closed if it is distributed.
  On the other hand some open source software (open as open access), like ASOP, give open access without any protection for the user freedoms. For example the BSD-3-Clause.
  I prefer to use the term Free Software instead of Open Software, because it points out that the whole meaning behind the licence is to maintain source code freedoms. On the other hand Open software seems to defend the fact that the source code is open but not its freedoms.
  Both OSS Open source and FSF Free software definition refer to mostly the same set of licences, which in order to distinguish you would need to check the particular details like copyleft, etc.
- Though we can't use the android name and logo, the software that was open so far is still open for use.
  Take that part and continue building from there

tl;dr: buy a second hand pixel 8 and install GrapheneOS. It's Android, but it will get you through a few years while you wait for postmarketOS to become viable as a daily driver.
- Hi! I've been looking into getting GOS on a Pixel lately. I was wondering if there is a reason you recommend the pixel 8 over the pixel 9?
  
  Just cheaper.
- I'm interested in switching to GOS but my main question is regarding photos. Pixel cameras are quite good but mainly because of Google's post treatment of the files. Are the photos still good on GOS?
  
  Yes, GOS's camera app is very good. And if you still don't like it, you can use the proprietary Google camera app, with it's internet connection disabled. In GOS, when you don't give an app internet access, it cannot even connect to local services like Google Play Services, if installed, which is not the case in many other custom ROMs.
  
  Why would they be different?
- No. Incorrect. You should actually read it. GOS is Android. Android is the problem.
  
  I said it's android.
  Its going to be a problem but it's not yet.

Definitely going to be trying for some kind of linux phone for my next one.
Debating biting the bullet on the ~$800 cost of a fairphone.
- I was looking into Fairphone and got sketched out, they do not really seem particularly trustworthy or competent.
  For example: https://discuss.grapheneos.org/d/24134-devices-lacking-standard-privacysecurity-patches-and-protections-arent-private
  
  Oof
- i know it is still google, but i just started searching ebay for a used pixel 9 - looks like they are around $400-500 (pixel 10 came out last month). i figure getting graphene os on one of these may be an inexpensive path forward... still looking for good options, tho.
  i'll have to check out fairphone. i remember something about them not being available in the US, but that may be old news.
  
  There's a distributor, Murena, selling the Fairphone 4 and Fairphone 6 in the U.S. now. The Fairphone isn't fully usable with Linux yet, though. Calls, camera, and GPS all still apparently aren't working 100% with postmarket OS. I'm not aware of any other distribution that does any better. https://wiki.postmarketos.org/wiki/Category:Fairphone

Imagine if vendors like Anbernic started shipping devices that had phone hardware supported with open software. That would be so rad. They already run android and Linux and have a vibrant community.
- This thing looks like it has all the hardware you need to make a cheap cell phone...
  
  I think the biggest thing lacking in this kind of hardware is displays. Where can you find a phone-sized 1080p display that doesn't require signing some NDA or reverse engineering the specs? OLED would be even better for battery life.
  I don't see that probably 360p black-or-white e-ink display is going to be a good experience unless you're comparing it to a flip phone.
  
  I mean, you could approximate a phone with a lot of SBCs out there right now, if you stuck a screen onto it. A lot of them even have SIM modules. If somebody wanted to go full hacker you could probably 3D print a case for something like a Banana Pi, stick a cheap touchscreen OLED panel in there and Frankenstein up a battery. Would be a lot of work though and I’m sure getting all the shit working would be nontrivial.
  
  Lol. Even this $100 phone can get a headphone jack but the massively-funded Android OEMs aside Sony can’t offer this feature.

I would like to move away from Android and iOS. But I'm not sure it's really feasible. Hell, I might even have to move fully to iOS, because that's what the wife uses. That's the challenge with Linux or alternative OSes on mobile. It goes against the purpose of the device - it needs to be able to interact with the people in your life.
Because I have Android and she has an iPhone, we can't easily share headphones (her AirPods or my generic ones) or some of the other accessories. For instance, I don't want a device without a 3.5mm jack, so none of my headphones work for her. About the only thing we can share is the USB-C cable, and it's less efficient on my device. We have to use Google Maps to share location, the built-in functions don't talk. We have to use regular SMS and calls or Discord to talk, because FaceTime and iMessage don't have compatible Android software. I love her with all my heart - and frankly speaking she's worth more to me than software advocacy.
That's what causes ecosystem lock-in. As Sartre said, Hell is other people.
- That's the challenge with Linux or alternative OSes on mobile. It goes against the purpose of the device - it needs to be able to interact with the people in your life.
  That's not a "challenge" that linux can ever overcome. The only way to overcome that is to ask your wife to switch to a device that's respectful of you and her and everyone else.
  I find it extremely irritating that so many people see other devices and "well I can't interact with them the way I want to so I'd better join them and contribute to the problems so I can also not interact with other people on free systems".
  
  Okay. Give me a Linux phone that works out of the box that suits the following dealbreakers:
  Compatibility with iMessage and FaceTime. This is essential because my wife, my MIL, and other family members all use it. I can't be expected to change everyone over, I need to be compatible with the majority. I might be able to convert them over time, but it's going to be gradual.
  Always-on location information sharing with location data pulled from both GPS & terrestrial sources.
  Full support for Bluetooth devices, especially the ANC function of AirPods or similar (oh, and support for my mother's hearing aid app).
  OS-level support for telephony and SMS + MMS + RTC messaging. With software that has an instantly usable UI.
  A deep repository of trusted software with clear and easy UX that doesn't require adjustment - it all needs to "just work".
  Those are the dealbreakers for me.
- Like you, I value my relationships and by extension my mental health more than which messaging app I use.
  I hate Meta with a passion and them acquiring Whatsapp is probably the most disappointing acquisition of all time to me, but I'm going to continue using it because my wife, family in Latin America, and world friends all use it. And being lonely and out of touch isn't worth the satisfaction of knowing my data isn't being scraped to me. Others in these threads always seems to disagree here, and they're free to do that but it's not a lifestyle I'm interested in.
  I'm making changes where I can; I self host a server for my media, photos, files. I'm going to install Graphene on my phone soon. I'm interested in picking up a cheaper older phone to try a Linux mobile OS on. I have my phone auto connect to my pihole to block trackers when I'm out of the house, etc. But I know as soon as it's something I have to inconvenience others with, it's not going to work.
  Pick your battles.
- I might be a dick for pointing it out, but the willingness to switch tech ecosystems for a spouse should really go both ways
  
  You're not a dick for saying it. But switching and losing daily driven features isn't really something I think is fair. And that's why I would be the one to change. I'd probably just keep the apple device on hotspot mode and use the Android as a tablet and VOIP call/text device.

Yes. Need the kind of love desktop hardware got for Linux with mobile hardware. I don't need tap to pay and mobile deposit. That can come when the ball really gets rolling and the user base is too large to not service. For now I'd be happy with consistent phone/text support, signal application, a mobile Firefox, and the phone dockable to run full desktop applications. Strong enough hardware. Google are a bunch of jackasses. Need more phones to support PostmarketOS or something
Most apps I can replace with a web browser but the mass market has shown it's preference for an app store. Got to get payments integrated into Flathub
- I'm in a similar position. My next phone will be a Linux device I just hope I can install Signal everything else I can do on my pc instead even if it's less convenient

Lets just load a e sim on the steamdeck and call it a day

By the way, outside of our brawl down below, I do agree with you 100% that having a fully functional and modern Linux phone would be an amazing thing to have.

Have you looked at the state of how open source smartphone os projects are funded? Seems like not enough people think it is currently important. i saw no bump in funding since the announcement. I would say the best bet is trying to help one of these projects with fundraising and trying to educate or convince enough people it is worth investing in. and obviously donate if you can. Although to be honest even i don't do that (i think i invest enough in FOSS).
Once i bought a phone i tried to pick one that is friendly for FOSS projects and went with a pixel (which grapheneos recommended). so voting or signaling with your wallet is an option.
I also think something like codeberg. where anyone can be a member if he pays fees that help fund the organisation and democratically elect a board that decides what to fund could be helpful. codeberg has a pretty good organic growth so that is encouraging but i don't know if there is enough interest in that.
- Right there’s too many people shooting down the Linux phone concept within this thread 😔

At this point, the "best" solution might be buying one of those SBC (single board computers) that also has an android image, like orangePi or ODroid and "build" the rest of the phone on top of it. Might be the only way people can get a screen smaller than 6" as well. I say Android in this case because it has access to all the apps without needing emulation or Waydroid
OOOOORRRRR, just buy an used older phone that you know is easy to unlock and install a custom rom. Did that with a motorola G6, am happy with lineage. Not the fastest phone by a long shot, especially as newer versions of many apps just introduce more bloat because fuck you, but perfectly usable for messaging and video watching. Also has a headphone jack!
- I mean Android itself is the main problem here...
- There's already a project like the first thing you wrote, SPIRIT, built on top of a rpi cm5, currently in ideas and mb design stage

Are there any Linux mobile OSs that do not use a compatibility layer with Android underneath it?
I tried Ubuntu Touch a couple of years ago and couldn't get mobile data working with UK provider but apart from that it was very cool.
- Yes, Ubuntu Touch is one of them. I listed more elsewhere.

I have been wanting a Linux phone for ages but I can't afford a librem and pine seems to have stalled out. Just found out about Furi and now I'm wondering if it really is that good. It's still expensive but it at least doesn't look like it'd choke on running a calculator app.
- wow I didn't knew about FuriPhone
- You might have better luck looking at the distros themselves. They're not exactly great on any device yet, but there are cases where mobile Linux distros work at least equally or a little better on select Android phones than they do on dedicated Linux phones.

indeed, android has been a shit show for the last couple of months and its not looking good.
i was thinking that this will make rooting and by extension custom ROMs prevalent again which hopefully will take us back to the golden age of android modding, but be careful of what you wish for.
I DON'T WANNA USE STOCK ANDROID. DON'T WANNA DON'T WANNA DON'T WANNA DON'T WANNA DON'T WANNA DON'T WANNA
- Custom ROMs and rooting won't solve any of these problems.
  
  i know that's why i'm seething right now, we are hopeless since custom roms and root users are a fraction of a fraction that is people who install apk outside google
  removing the ability to unlock bootloaders is just another negative

I just bought the Fairphone 6 with /e/os. I am pleasantly surprised with how many apps work just fine.
- The point of this post is that there are worrying trends that threaten the entirety of the Android ecosystem. Not necessarily today, but in the near future.
- What's e/os?
  
  Degoogled android
  
  It's besically android without the Google parts.

I really want one but I dont think I can live with it daily. Too much shit relies on phones now. Linux is perfect for my desktop and I never need windows, but I dont think a linux phone is gonna work for my banking or investment apps
- Banks allow me to login via their web interface, send money to a BSB + Account Number or even a PayID (email / phone number) but using their app to do just the same is too far?
  It's total rubbish, honestly I've resurrected my OG ridge wallet and am planning on installing Graphene on my P7P to skirt the phone payment trap.
  I was one of the few in Australia to test Google wallet (thanks for the free cash google) and thought it was the bees knees. It's a fucking long con and fuck I feel dumb for falling into it.
  Worst still my drivers licence is a phone app, so are my work certificates and probably a bunch of other shit that I'll only realize later.
  I guess fuck around and find out shows its ugly face eventually.
  
  Phone apps are a pet peeve of mine. Most apps are just websites wrapped up in the ASAR archive format. Instead of spending all this extra money to build an app, just make your original website responsive.
  
  I switched back to banking at a branch years ago, and I love it. Money gets into my account so much faster when I deposit a check at a bank vs online.
- apparently it needs to be said that I am not suggesting you switch to Linux on your phone today; just that development needs to accelerate.

I've been a mobile dev for many years, I fell in love with the Nokia 810 with maemo which kinda got me started, but I never had one myself. I moved to OpenMoko and saved to buy a Neo. But then Android became big with Google's support and all companies rushing to have an alternative to iOS with the iPhone. Back then when Android meant openness. As much as I loved the openmoko project it had plenty of issues as a daily driver, so eventually I cracked and moved to Android with a Galaxy S2, ah, the innocence back then when one could think Google was actually different... Actually doing good and creating a great Linux phone.
I absolutely agree on all your points. It is time to kill Android as a free/open source idea if it is not dead yet. And you know what, Linux is absolutely ready to substitute anything as a mobile platform. It needs more polishing in terms of UI but Maemo nearly 20 years ago already offered a great UX IMO. Thank you Microsoft and all Nokia management for destroying it.
Now, I say Linux as a mobile platform is ready... But we all know it doesn't lack problems. What are those? The problems come from anticompetitive practices, locked hardware for chips, drivers and so on, specially all related to phone networking. The other main problem is apps which is only a small issue with all the ways there are available to make android apps run on Linux, that is... Until google comes to fuck things up with the points #3 and #4 you make. Those are the biggest threats right now, and it's no wonder Google is doing that. They are preventing the possibility of competition arising. Like I said, I have been a dev for many years, it absolutely sucks the path all tech is taking. But there are solutions, just need to have proper anticompetitive practices and protections... At least in Europe we kinda do, but more needs to be done.
The main point is, Linux as an alternative is kinda ready, if only there was a real posible competition to be had outside of being incredibly rich.

Hi, I've just registered here to bring an addition to the conversation that hasn't been mentioned yet: Droidian.
It's a Debian-based distro that can run on a number of Android phones, and it uses Halium technology to utilize the Android device drivers, but on top of those, it provides a complete Debian+Phosh experience!
On well-supported devices the performance is just like native Android, with camera support and almost everything seems to work. Waydroid also provides a full Android system if needed, again, with good performance.
In my view, this project can pave the way for Linux development for smartphones, as the user interacts with a standard Phosh desktop environment, so new apps can also be developed for the platform without the need of specialized hardware such as the Pinephone.
A good option for this could be the Thinkphone by Motorola device (codename bronco), as it is officially supported, has a good battery and a pretty recent SoC (SD8+Gen1) compared to most devices supported by Droidian/Ubuntu Touch/PostmarketOS. In my region it can be had for ~€250 brand new. When most other supported devices are Poco F1/Pixel 3a era, this is can be huge for smartphone Linux enthusiasts. Also, it's officialy supported by LineageOS as well.
Another device, that's even better supported by Droidian but pricier, is the Furilabs FLX1.
- Welcome to the Threadiverse
  
  Thanks!

What I really hope for is a way to install linux on any mobile device, be it Samsung, Google, One Plus or whatever, like we do with Linux… with linux it doesn’t matter which brand is your laptop… it always works, and if we can replicate that it means true freedom and also it means linux mobile phones are gonna be more fun and broader than desktop computers… cuz everyone uses smart phones.

Valve could do it.
- Haha yeah, probably. Honestly I'm shocked they don't have an Android store like Epic. But I digress.
- Make a beefy gaming phone with the steam store!

I got a Sailfish OS last year seeing the writing on the wall already with all the bootloader locking. It’s been bumpy to put it lightly, but at least it has Android apps to help get over the gaping holes of basic missing apps like a halfway decent XMPP client. …But at least native WhisperFish lets you get around the lack of Signal on most non-duopoly platforms.

It would be cool to see people move beyond the standard smartphone and into some sort of hotspot and linux based palmtop or umpc like setup
I had something like that in the early 2000s with a nokia n800 and it worked well enough I'm sure it would be even better now

So what is our alternative? I get that we need to start working on an actual viable open platform, but it seems like the difficulty is mostly hardware and device manufacturers locking the bootloader at this point, isn't it? So is that where we need to go? To make the "Raspberry Pi" of mobile phones?
I'm happy to help, I just don't have the free time to spearhead a whole project.
- Not necessarily. If the software is made viable, the hardware will be the easy part.
  
  But isn't that your point: that bootloaders are getting locked down by OEMs and so custom software is being made non-viable?

Would a pixel phone running GOS be future proofed, or one day Google can just push out some hidden updates that prevent you from running it at all?
- I mean Google could theoretically decide to stop open development entirely or lock the bootloader, and that would be the end of that.
- Well if your not running Google's OS. how can they push updates. My issue with GrapheneOS is the trackers. It well not warn if trackers are following you and if you have trackers you well spam everyone with unknown tracker following you.
  
  Tracker blocking uses flawed heuristics. The only methods that are typically used are static lists which is just badness enumeration. There is nothing stopping the app/service from sending the data down a different domain that isn't blocked or a domain that can't be blocked without breaking the service.
  Adding to that, how do we even decide what is a "tracker"? What is the definition? Some might say it includes all telemetry or crashlytics. Are those inherently malicious?
  I don't think it would make sense for GrapheneOS to include something flawed like a "tracker blocker" that lulls people into a false sense of security. They use robust and meaningful methods for improving the privacy and security of the OS.

What phones do you recommend for linux then?
- apparently it needs to be said that I am not suggesting you switch to Linux on your phone today; just that development needs to accelerate.

The discussions here are quite passionate so a bit of a reality check :
"PineStore has also discontinued the PinePhone Pro which was talked about in the last recent blog post. TLDR, sales were low". https://pine64.org/2025/08/16/august_2025/#pinephone-pro-discontinuation
So... people here say they do want one, but clearly not like that one.
Also recently the crowd funding of https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/liberux-nexx--3 barely reached 10% of €1,434,375 Fixed Goal with just 135 backers.
So... also clearly not that one either.
So what accelerated development do people not just want to claim they do want, but actually pay for?
- what accelerated development do people not just want to claim they do want, but actually pay for?
  The suggestion was that we need it, not that a large number of people want it.
  The software development really needs to happen before hardware sales. Pretty pointless without it.

I'm probably going to spam this around a bit, since most people don't seem to know about it, but a reminder that FuriLabs has a (GNU+)Linux phone with decent spec.s and the ability to run Android app.s (from what I've heard) pretty decently: https://furilabs.com/
Biggest drawback is it's based on Halium. Usual growing pains of a new product/company apply but apparently the company is pretty responsive and their dev.s have worked with customers to get things like calling working with the carrier and bands of their country where it hasn't worked before so improvements move pretty quickly.
Collection of different experiences I've variously seen online over the last year or so:
https://clehaxze.tw/gemlog/2025/07-20-flx1-actually-usable-linux-phone.gmi
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41839326
https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/1fa1ljn/furilabs_flx1/
https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/1j46f2w/flx1_linux_phone_display_out/
https://www.theregister.com/2025/02/03/furiphone_flx1/
I don't own one, myself, so I can't give any personal experience but I've seen it around for a few years now but most people don't seem to even know about it. Maybe there's a reason for that? But none I've ever seen anyone say.

The problem with them is that they're only available on their respective site. And so they have limited exposure. If they were available at a local store, then the people would notice them. Same with Fairphones, Frameworks and with any brand that is pro-environment.

There are already some very cool-looking Linux cyberdecks.
- What does this have to do with this discussion?
  
  Cyberdecks are 1) pocketable 2) computing devices 3) often wireless, and 4) run Linux.
  That's what people want from phones, so I figured it was a valid contribution to the discussion.
  I guess not...
- Not relevant to this thread. However, I didn't know what a cyberdeck was and there are indeed some very cool-looking ones. :)

Google's ongoing Android lockdown feels like the end of an era, with the understanding that eras don't end overnight. They fade away slowly.
- It is.

Is it possible to have my normal shitty samsung for stuff that wont work on a linux phone, and have like a pinephone for simple calls and stuff, but have them both use the same phone # ? I doubt.
Cuz when hiking or something I like a phone for safety but I dont want distractions.
- It's possible using VoIP. Have done it before.
  
  Can you explain how to do this? I'd make the switch, honestly. Not a super techy person, but I'm willing to learn if it means a Linux phone.

I should probably go get a replacement screen for my old OnePlus 3T, while I still can...

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