Snakes

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Like, I really understand where this is coming and I see why it's that way. But I'm also really tired of being seen as a threat just because my way home seems to have some overlap. How do I react to make clear I'm not interested in rape, violence, stalking, whatever? I just want to get home to my dogs, there's no need to prepare your keys to gouge my eyes out.
- In all seriousness, what are men supposed to do with this besides feel bad?
  Or is that the point?
  
  Not getting mad when someone feels threatened by you is a pretty good start.
  
  Constantly being treated like a bad guy, no matter what you do or how hard you try gets wearing. Right or wrong, it makes some men apathetic.
  
  Either I look really non-threatening, or I'm just oblivious, because I've never noticed this. Probably a bit of both.
  
  I'm a bigger guy, about 6'3" and about 230 lbs, so I get that I look intimidating some times. But I've honestly just walked past a woman and smiled at them and get a nasty look. I go out of my way to put out a happy and positive image and still sometimes get looked at like I'm some threat.
  It's tiring and honestly at some point you just stop caring. I stop smiling and reassuring everyone smaller than me to make them feel better, because what's the point. I've become jaded.
  
  If I'm going to be treated like a bad guy NO MATTER WHAT I ACTUALLY DO, I might as well be a fucking bad guy. Don't do the crime if you...are going to do the time anyway?
  
  "Women made me evil"
  
  Yeah, and the Republicans made Canada evil.
  Women have treated me in such a way that I'm not longer willing to try considering myself to be on their side.
  
  Why would you believe a position that involves hating an entire gender is at all justified
  
  "We treat all men like rapists because what if one actually is?"
  "We treat all women like they're going to falsely accuse you of rape because what if one actually does?"
  "How can you be that evil?"
  
  So your excuse is that some other people of the opposite gender are equally as shitty as you're planning to be?
  
  Why am I held to a standard they aren't? Why are you bitching at me about it?
  I've never struck a woman. Women have slapped, scratched, punched, kicked, bitten and spit on me. I've never sexually assaulted a woman, I was sexually assaulted by female classmates in middle and high school.
  Yet I'm increasingly treated as if I'm guilty of all of these things for existing while male.
  So fuck off pretending I'm at fault here.
  
  On top of not suggesting that making men feel bad is the point (it's not), this comment seems to provide helpful tips: https://reddthat.com/comment/18247122
  What I'd also recommend is being an ally to women in your life already. If women felt more male allyship during the inside/day, then maybe they'd be less fearful of men outside/at night.
  
  If women felt more male allyship during the inside/day, then maybe they'd be less fearful of men outside/at night.
  What an inane take on the subject. Men are willing to help women so often that it’s a large factor in male on male violence.
  This is a microcosm of the whole issue. Yes there are dangerous men and they’re often dangerous to both men and women.
  The consequences are often different as men are significantly more likely to be violently assaulted, and more likely to be killed, while women are overwhelmingly more likely to be sexually harassed or sexually assaulted.
  
  I would love to see what data you're going off of that suggests that a large factor of male on male violence is a direct result of men stepping in for the safety of a woman. Please share what source you have for this.
  Regardless, even if 100% of male on male violence was somehow because a man physically put himself in the way of a woman being attacked, my advice is still sound. There'd still be plenty of women out there who experienced violence and have not experienced male allyship. Your point about men being more likely to be killed by men than a woman is doesn't really affect women's perception of men. If a woman views men as a threat, the best way to help is to demonstrate that men on the whole are not threats. It's unlikely that anything you do to make a woman on the street more comfortable will have a lasting impact on her perception of men. One of the best things you can do is show the women around you who know and believe you that you, an average man, are safe. Call out sexism in the workplace, be respectful of her boundaries. If more men did that then women would have more experience interacting with men they know are safe. This would change their perception of men as a whole. It's a whole thing. Desensitization.
  You did not say anything refuting my point or even suggest an alternative. You just said that men are also targets, which is true, but not at all relevant to the question of how to make women feel safer. I'm providing the perspective of a woman who knows and regularly speaks to other women.
  
  I don't have the study, but it's so ingrained it's literally a meme. The idea of a "white knight" is based off the idea that men defend women without actually having idea whats going on. The "how can she slap" meme came from a show where a woman slapped a guy when she wasnt allowed to, and it shocked him so he slapped her back. Instantly every dude in the crowd got up and started beating his ass, even though she literally assaulted him outside of the rules of the show. There's also the trope of guys doing dumb stuff "because love" or to show off to women.
  I'm didn't read enough to follow his point nor yours outside of that, but there is definitely a point to be made that men do tend to defend women from strangers, just not from friends.
  
  Memes are not studies. If you can't at least find one to support the point I'd hazard it was never true. You can't base an argument around a single video, or even a collection of them. Data is generally needed.
  White knighting is pretty exclusively used in a derogatory manner, which would indicate that most people think it's not the default and that it's cringe.
  Men doing stupid things for women is not the fault of women. It also does not translate to defending women.
  If men were so ready to defend women, why was the me too movement needed? Why is there still sexism in the workplace, or at all? Do I believe that some men like to appear masculine? Yes. Do I believe that some men equate masculinity with violence? Yes. Do I think that necessarily equates to protecting women, or doing things that benefit women? Absolutely not.
  You say you didn't read enough to follow, and that you don't have any studies, but that there is definitely a point to be made. Even if there is, your comment does not really support that.
  This feels like how Trump got elected. Commenting about how memes proved a point and just going off of vibes, it must be right.
  
  Nah, i didnt even look for a study, thats why i mentioned that. I figured the examples i gave where enough to get the point across, the point being what I stated at the end. As far as the equating masculinity with violence, imma be honest, I don't really want to think about deeper topics right now. I wasnt trying to take anyones side, just comment an observation that I have made.
  And yeah, white knighting is seen as cringe and definitely not the default, but its common enough that theres a well known term for it. The cringe part though for me is injecting yourself into a situation without knowing the facts, not the defending of a woman. Although I'm a pretty hardcore feminist, so I don't tend to look at too many things under the lens of a man or woman, I generally just pretend as though gender/sex don't exist when i interact with people to get rid of any bias.
  
  Gender blindness is generally not considered a feminist approach to interpersonal relationships.
  
  If I'm not trying to get in your pants, your sex shouldn't matter.
  And I don't know why I would treat women differently then men, so I'm not sure why I need to take gender into account either.
  It's different if were discussing things that are gender/sex exclusive, like periods or something.(I can't offer gender exclusive issues bc i cant think of any that arent just gender roles, which i despise) But for casual conversation why does gender matter?
  To be clear, I am not trying to convert you here, I just figure you can give me a better explanation if you understand where im coming from.
  
  I'm not sure if you realize that it was me that you were replying to elsewhere in this thread, but I think you actually answered own question. In a vacuum, it shouldn't matter, but in reality, it does. When "randomly" picking who coordinates social events, or work happy hour, is it generally a woman? When you're talking about introducing a new idea in the office and you check with a colleague, is it always the same sex? When someone at work asks for a moment of your time, who are you finding immediate time for? I'm not saying that you have a gender bias, I am just saying that society has a gender bias, and often people don't realize their subconscious gender bias. If you're not paying attention, you can definitely fall into societal assumptions about gender without even realizing it. Heck, you might even find that you are white knighting, and helping women more than men. Maybe you never fall into those issues, but most feminist theory thinks it's important to be at least conscious of this sort of thing.
  I kept it mostly work related, because interpersonal relationships are all different and I don't really know anything about you or the kind of interpersonal relationship you would have, but it generally applies to those as well. Obviously, the work examples are also quite specific for a specific kind of job, but hopefully it gives enough of a picture that you could extrapolate how unconscious bias could affect all kinds of jobs and not just insert sitcom office job here.
  
  Im not sure if a mod deleted it or what, but my app isnt showing our conversation past here so this is where ill have to respond. I see where you are coming from and i think that my approach would not work for everyone, but I do generally tend to have an extremely black and white view of the world. As far as i can tell i do generally tend to treat everyone the same, but for very odd reasons. My paranoia leads me to fear getting attacked by literally everyone, and i have the habitual urge to treat everyone with respect. The only thing I do thats questionable is racial and sexual humor, but that is clearly in jest, which still doesnt really excuse it. It does help i suppose that I am a racial and sexual minority
  
  Just fyi, I was talking about this comment: https://reddthat.com/comment/18251444
  Otherwise, yea, I think it's important we all do what we can. Best of luck out there.
  
  Yeah, i got that. I got my app working again, not sure what the deal was with that.
  Kinda joking, kinda not, but the solution to sexism seems to be autism.
  
  Here's a study.
  https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/0886260521997928
  Its about 'Honor Based Violence' as it pertains to males being involved in violence against other males, when the inciting incident is a woman's honor being insulted.
  Also how forced marriages harm and are used to punish non gender conforming males in hyperpatriarchichal societies.
  ... The study begins by basically saying that uh, no one really bothers to study this within a feminist framework, almost all existing research is geared toward how women are harmed.
  
  That's not what that article is about, but I imagine you knew that already. 31% of the participants were experiencing it due to homophobia, 37% were because they didn't want to marry who their parents wanted, 10% were due to wanting to get rid of them due to disability. Literally none of that is at it relates to an inciting incident of female honor being insulted. The article also makes a point of mentioning how this is a patriarchal problem and how women still make up an overwhelmingly large percentage of victims. None of this proves any point about how standing up for women is somehow a huge proportion of male on male violence.
  This is a tactic fascists use. Just throwing in a study with no real relation to the topic. It's to waste someone's time and energy and divert the topic.
  You clearly are not engaging in good faith and I invite anyone to read that study and confirm it does not say what you are suggesting.
  
  Hey, you know what?
  You're right.
  This study focuses pretty much entirely on forced marriage as a punishment for men/boys who fail to live up to hypermasculine standards.
  I misread it.
  ... It is nearly midnight, and I lost my glasses years ago now.
  Doing this whole convo on a cheap phone I bought at a gas station years ago now, many states away.
  Homelessness is not fun.
  Either way, yep, my bad, I did not represent this study accurately, apologies.
  Maybe tomorrow I'll try to find a study that actually attempts to even document the male propensity to... act physically, and violently, on behalf of someone they care about, as compared to women...
  But frankly, I am both baffled by how difficult it is to find like, statistically valid, large sample studies on this, as well as being baffled by your incredulity to the validity of this concept.
  I... guess maybe a lookup of man on man v man on women v women on women assault and battery and murder statistics... if they all actually include some kind of 'why did this occur' in the records... could verify or falsify this... but it seems like I would literally have to do such a meta analysis myself.
  That... or it is midnight and I am too tired to figure out how to search for such a study properly.
  Either way, the... entire ingrained, toxic masculinity/patriarchy paradigm... men being both socially expected to, and being generally physically more naturally predisopsed to do acts of physical violence, often to uphold the honor of, of avenge an insult to a friend or lover...
  This concept is so widely ingrained in nearly all cultures, through nearly all history... and is easily visible if one ever just... goes to a moderately busy bar or other social event with a good mix of men and women...
  That I am incredulous at your incredulity of this being a phenomenon that happens, that a guy will insult another guy's girlfriend, and this will cause a fight between the two men.
  I understand your desire for actual empirical numbers to work with, but I do no comprehend how you can doubt that... this is a common thing that happens quite often, it is a huge part of patriarchy and toxic masculinity itseld.
  Anyway... I'm off to bed now.
  
  I appreciate you owning up to the fact that this study does not say what you claimed it did. I have a hard time believing it could have been misread as such regardless of local time or eyesight, but at least we're on the same page.
  I don't know why you're acting as though I said men have never in all of history stood up for women. I'm not making that case. I just don't have a reason to believe that makes up a majority of man on man violence. How many times have I seen that vs how many times have I seen two men fight over a spilled drink or a parking space or some other frivolous thing. I don't think the evidence is there to suggest that man on man violence is somehow secretly also the fault of women, which seemed to be that persons point.
  Not sure you realize it was me you responded to elsewhere in this thread, but since you accused me of essentially patronizing you, I won't make any comments about your personal situation. I only note that because you brought it up, and I'd hate to have you point to me not mentioning it as some lack of empathy.
  
  Man I should've read further before I read that whole study. 29 cases, 9 of which were forced marriage by family because the man was suspected to be gay... for sure not what that comment had me expecting. Glad they owned up to it.
  Did you read case 16? The point of the study was to talk about male victims of violence, but then case 16 is that his family was mean to him, then kidnapped the girlfriend they didn't approve of. Jesus Christ. Definitely not what I was expecting.
  
  Yea, unfortunately I read the whole study out of good faith. It's wild that comment has as many upvotes as it does, but just goes to show how little people actually care about the truth and how ready they are to accept anything that purports to back their own claims. Or hopefully that Lemmy is being astroturfed already and no one actually believes that, they're just sowing division.
  Every case is just gross and a great example of how patriarchy harms men. I can't believe people think that they can marry off their disabled son and they'd just be effectively cared for by their new wife. Heartbreaking. I can't imagine effectively telling my child I'm sick of caring for them so I'm just giving that responsibility to someone who they don't know and who's being forced to care for them with no training or presumably forewarning.
  
  There’d still be plenty of women out there who experienced violence and have not experienced male allyship
  Calls for evidence followed by impossible to prove claims with no evidence of your own. Look if you're going to hold people to standards at least make some pretense of meeting your own standards.
  Moving on, desensitising people to dangerous situations only makes them more likely to get injured due to complacency.
  You did not say anything refuting my point or even suggest an alternative.
  Because you're offerring simple solutions to complex problems, so it's clear what you are.
  
  Since you refuse to provide evidence, I will assume you have none.
  Here, enjoy this report on how one in five cases of sexual assault reported to police are not believed: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC9136376/
  Are you suggesting that those situations are indeed inherently dangerous? If so, then why so uppity about their reactions? If not, then my point stands.
  You are offering no solutions to the problems, while acting as though there is no cause to the problems.
  Simple solutions can help complex problems. They're not the only way to do so, but they are a way. You are clearly not legitimately interested in women and their struggles though, so this comment is here more for posterity than anything else. May you have the day you deserve.
  
  Here, enjoy this report
  The report that doesn't provide any evidence for and isn't remotely relevant to this claim? I'll pass.
  There’d still be plenty of women out there who experienced violence and have not experienced male allyship.
  Please show me where I was 'uppity' about women's reactions. I don't need to offer solutions in order to critique your incredibly naive opinions on how to resolve societal issues.
  acting as though there is no cause
  I literally pointed out that there are dangerous men, and they're a problem. You're just making shit up.
  You are clearly not legitimately interested in women and their struggles though
  Again, you're making shit up. This is a bullshit claim and has absolutely no basis in reality.
  I'm simply not claiming to have solutions to a complex and difficult problem that I don't have, unlike yourself.
  May you have the day you deserve.
  Ooh sassy today aren't we. Try kicking rocks, I suspect it'll be as productive as following any of your suggestions would be.
  
  What I'd also recommend is being an ally to women in your life already. If women felt more male allyship during the inside/day, then maybe they'd be less fearful of men outside/at night.
  Been doing that for about two decades now.
  I've gotten guys slipping roofies in girls drinks thrown outta bars.
  Gotten in many verbal arguments protecting LGBTQ folks against bigots, a few came to blows.
  Much more than that as well, all the worldview of an anarchist that fundamentally believes any system, at any level of society, that perpetuates injustice is itself unjust, no matter how it claims to work, worked for nonprofits helping the homeless... particularily women domestic abuse survirors...
  ... Doesn't matter, I am a white male, dress fairly tradtionally cishetmale most of the time, and I am now very, very used to being prejudged as potentially violent, getting insults thrown at me criticizing a worldview I don't have.
  Even more ironic in that I've actually been domestically abused (physically assaulted, if that isn't clear) by a former female partner...
  Wasn't ... part of tearing down the patriarchy... supposed to include encouraging men to be ok with being more vulnerable, being ok with crying, not being judged for expressing buried emotions, in a a non threatening manner?
  ...
  Has anyone ever said to you, or have you ever said...
  Wow, I didn't realize what I was saying, the way I was saying it, was hurtful to you... I'll try to be more conscious of how my actions affect those around me, in the future?
  ... And really, truly, mean it?
  
  I think it's great that you've helped people in need. I'm sorry you were abused. That's awful no matter the circumstances.
  I'm not sure why you're bringing up men crying and being vulnerable. I support anyone expressing their emotions in healthy ways and I've not seen people here say otherwise. Are you just sharing your personal experience or was this related to something?
  I would hope most people can say yes to the last bit. It's more or less the basis of civil society.
  
  I am not looking for validation from you, as it is obvious from the start you aren't interested in empathizing with a man, please stop talking to me like you just finished your BA in Psych or Social Work and are talking to a troubled teen.
  You are intentionally playing dumb and trying to psychoanalyze me, to avoid addressing the actual totality of what I have said.
  This is disrespectful.
  It is a fairly basic and well understood fact that men tend to value respect and perceptions of being respected significantly more than women, on average.
  ...
  I said what I said as a direct response to your response, to being asked:
  'What are men supposed to do with this besides feel bad?'
  Your response was essentially:
  Men shouldn't feel bad about this.
  and
  Be an ally to women.
  ...
  Ok, so...
  For the first part, you are just outright denying men the capacity or right to ... feel a certain way, express emotions about an experience they had.
  This is fundamentally at odds with the conception of tearing down the enforced gender normativity of patriarchy, a huge element of which is men stuffing down their emotions, being told when and how and what they're allowed to have emotions about, which is generally: suck it up buttercup, your feelings don't matter, your emotions are not valid.
  You are directly mandating all men abide by this rule.
  You are directly enforcing the patriarchy, toxic masculinity.
  ....
  For the second part,
  I've been an ally to women (and many others) for 20 years.
  Call that my sense of honor.
  So have many other men.
  I gave you an anecdote, a case study of one, my lived experience of how that worked out for me.
  It didn't work for me personally, and it isn't working at a broader societal scale either.
  The 'gender wars' are intsensifying, male incel edgelord culture got a fascist kleptocracy elected to run the US government, more and more marriages are failing and more and more young adults have never had a serious relationship of any kind, nor even a sexual partner... and all of this is fueling a ... 'return to the Handmaid's tale' wave of politics and policies that massively infringe upon the rights of women.
  Your strategy is not working.
  It is not producing an inclusive, more understanding, more empathetic, more tolerant or more patient culture.
  It is producing the opposite.
  ...
  'Blame all men' is your message, your strategy, distilled into a slogan. Be wary of all of them, all the time, you never know which one could hurt you.
  A more sound strategy would not alienate allies, it would be more specific, targeted, with actually useful heuristics or rules that can be practically applied so as to actually be able to discern the difference between likely ally and likely foe.
  What needs to be happening is the development of a constructive dialogue... not a hardening and intensifying of recalcitrance.
  ... Unless your goal actually is to escalate tensions.
  Sorry, got that whole Anarchist thing going on, a system's purpose is what it ultimately does, not what it claims to do.
  
  Legitimately empathized and said I was sorry to hear about your experience, and you seemed to interpret it as me attempting to provide validation, so not sure how you think that corresponds with an unwillingness to empathize. I'm not talking to you any differently than I would talk to anyone else. If you don't like the way I talk in general you don't have to engage.
  I'm not playing dumb. You just didn't make a point and I was trying to ask if you meant to make one as kindly as I could. It seems like you're attempting to now, so I'll address that.
  I never said men shouldn't feel bad. Please point out when you believe I said that.
  men should be allies. If you just said that men are becoming incels then I'm not sure why you think they are employing the allyship strategy. They're clearly not. I also never suggested that allyship will solve the worlds problems or that women SHOULD treat men X way. I said that if men want to know how to make it less likely women are concerned for their safety when they show up, they should engage in allyship. That's true, but not enough men are engaging in allyship. If more men did it there'd be a larger societal shift. More women interacting with more men who are allies and seeing them through that lens.
  My message has never been about blaming anyone. I've never addressed how women should feel. Some women feel and act a specific way. That's the framework the discussion is taking place in. If men want suggestions as to how to make women feel safer, I have some. They do not have to listen to them. They can ignore me and the other women telling them what would help women feel safe. Not sure if you know how allyship works, but a big part of it is constructive dialogue, and right now there are women saying what would help and you seem to be more interested in arguing with them than anything else. Likely allies are not alienated by this behavior and have empathy and understanding for the position women find themselves in. They... actually extend allyship.
  If me suggesting allyship towards women is eliciting this kind of response I have a legitimate concern about your actual interest in being an ally. Seems like a weird thing to be against. Writing up a whole comment to argue against... being nice to people?
  
  If it's not about you then don't worry about it
  
  For some of us, like certain spans of the autistic spectrum, that really isn't a simple ask.
  Because we do worry. We do feel empathy. We can't help but feel like we're still being lumped in.
  We are already so paranoid from a lifetime of being blamed for every little deviation that it's just more of the same.
  
  Fellow Autist here:
  We are being lumped in.
  I can't tell you the number of times I have gotten into arguments to defend someone's ... non conformity to societally standard gender norms, societally standard sexual preferences, societally standard cisness (?), against some MAGA hat wearing dudebro...
  Only for that very person, who was present with me, as I defended them verbally against some asshole, in person...
  To then, some months or weeks later, literally scream at me when something completely unrelated to any of that upset them...
  ... and they throw every single rhetorical device and phrase at me that they throw at actual male chauvanists, and also simultaneously attempt to deride my insufficient amount of stereotypical macho manliness.
  And this wasn't a single person doing this.
  It has been multiple people, many times, all self described leftists or liberals who all just immediately revert to all the insults they'd hurl at an avowed white neonazi.
  Oh well, I guess I am at least used to constantly being misunderstood and shunned from society because of an inherent way that I am different from most people that I have no ability to fundamentally change.
  intense deadpan stare to emphasize the galactic levels of irony
  
  This is why all my friends are neurologically atypical.
  Not to insult any neurotypicals reading this- it's just so much easier when everyone involved expects things to be stated explicitly, and when something upsetting happens, everyone assumes that you didn't mean it, there's been a misunderstanding somewhere, let's explain our side to each other, adjust our expectations, and move forward.
  
  I second this. It's a relief to be able to talk with other people and not worry about all the social performances we're expected to keep up around neurotypicals. I can just say the things I'm trying to say and if I stumble with my words, everyone still gets my meaning. Nobody's going to take an innocent comment as an insult, just because my tOnE oF vOiCe was "off." Don't feel like making eye contact? Awesome, I don't either! If you want, we can have a full, rich conversation about our shared special interests, all while looking at literally anything except each other.
  
  The idea is expressed for catharsis. It's only going to push awful people further into caustic masculine behaviors. So it's not actually directed at them, its target audience is other folk who have to deal with their awful behaviors.
  As long as you're not unnecessarily approaching strangers in public and you build trust in your personal relationships then you can safely ignore it.
  Edit: actually you kind of need to once you understand the problem being described or your mental health will take a severe hit. Talking from experience here...
  
  "Uhhh, yes ALL MEN, why would you say not all men?"
  "Uh not all of them obviously, I don't mean the good ones. If you thought I was targeting you when I said all men are bad, threats to innocent people, and need to be kept out of public spaces and valuable positions. Obviously you are a bad person."
  
  That's the same mentality trump voters have
  
  No this would be rage bait for trump cult members.
  
  what are men supposed to do with this besides feel bad?
  Speak up when you see other men being abusive jerks. Use peer pressure to improve the behavior instead of excusing it.
  
  what are men supposed to do with this besides feel bad?
  Be aware. I am a large, semi-muscular male, if I am walking down the street and there is a woman by herself I will slow down and give her space or cross to the other side of the road. It really doesn't take much.
- Ditto: I literally take pubic transit to work every single day and every single time I hop off I hop off with these 2 other ladies, and they always pretend to check their bag so that I walk ahead of them and they can see me.
  I totally understand why they do that but it still is just dehumanizing to me, specially after literal years of getting off at the same stop.
  
  If it's the same two women every day then you could say hello and introduce yourself?
  
  I think it would be weird to introduce myself to them, here in Canada you do not really talk to other people on the bus except maybe if youre going to another city and have literally nothing else to do
  
  Also, what sort of monster wants to have a conversation with strangers on the morning commute? I'd rather not talk to anyone til at least mid afternoon.
  
  I get where the replier is coming from but 100% where wi live if you chat with strangers on the bus you are being a monster.
- This constant promotion of the sense of fear is one of the biggest ways we destroy any sense of local community.
- Run up to them, and announce that you don't intend to harm them and then ask where they live so you can safely escort them home.
- Just avoid looking at anyone for longer than a second or two, but don't try to look like you are avoiding looking at anyone. If in close proximity, acknowledge their existence and then focus on something else. If they start conversing, reciprocate but do not try to keep the conversation going if it trails off. If they don't appear to open to a conversation and you are in close proximity, a small nod to indicate you noticed them and then changing your focus is a really good way to indicate you noticed them, but are not interested in interacting with them.
  This really puts victims at ease. I mean strangers. Yeah, strangers.
  Seriously though, just existing in the same space and not forcing interaction does put people at ease. Being overly friendly or acting like you are trying to avoid noticing their existence is suspicious for good reasons.
  
  Me: exist without an extensive list of precautions.
  Women: oh no!
  But to be honest, I've stopped looking at people at all because this costs me so much energy and at some time I just gave up. If this makes me look like a threat then I'm sorry.
  
  You asked "How do I react" and then when given a sympathetic and detailed answer seem to act as though it's a huge imposition being demanded of you.
  The reality is that you don't have to do anything and no one has demanded you do anything. Sometimes, allyship requires effort. If you think you might be making someone uncomfortable and there is something you can do to ease that discomfort, it's your choice to make, but please don't act like it's women who are out there putting society in this position. It's men who are doing it. You're also may be "sorry" about it, but clearly not sorry enough to want to change to help.
  Most women do not perceive every man as a threat. There are some that do I'm sure, but generally there's a specific set of circumstances where it becomes an issue. If you don't want to take those opportunities to exercise allyship by making them more comfortable, you don't have to.
  
  It isn't an extensive list, I just explained it with examples to avoid being too vague. It is just two things:
  Don't focus too much or actively ignore other people.
  Mind your own business unless they start a conversation and don't force it to continue.
  Worrying too much about how others see you to the point that you are uncomfortable will make others uncomfortable. If you can be comfortable with yourself others will be more likely to feel comfortable around you.
  
  Don’t focus too much or actively ignore other people.
  AUDHD: "Let's create a huge problem where none needs to exist, ok?"
  
  Honestly my being an introvert with ADHD makes noticing people but not paying too much attention easy because I'm thinking about something else and am not looking for a conversation anyway! Threads like this and talking to women I know in person about what they find creepy is how I found out it is the least threatening way to act. Just got lucky tbh.
  I'm an introvert as in focused internally on my own thoughts. I don't have social anxiety and am comfortable talking to strangers if they start the conversation.
  
  So I have to run through a check list for every single encounter I have just to not be treated like an animal. I can't just exist and go about my life? I mean, I don't see this helping the problem.
  
  Is anyone treating you like an animal in real life, or are you taking online comments that are generalizations about some common behaviors personally?
  
  A person proposed an issue, on how they're treated and not knowing what to do. Your response was a check list to go through and things you have to do, but but too much, and don't ignore certain people. Your solution to the problem is unreasonable, that's what I'm saying.
  I don't understand what's so hard to follow.
  
  Is paying attention to whether you are staring too difficult?
  Is being aware that initiating or dragging out conversations with women you don't know often comes across as intimidating too difficult to understand?
  The last two sentences is a summary and all that someone needs to remember, but would be too vague without the previous context. There isn't a less complicated answer.
  
  Is paying attention to whether you are staring too difficult?
  Is being honest too difficult? There is no room to have a conversation here with how you're presenting things. This isn't just "don't stare" and you presenting it as such is arguing in bad faith. What was said, incase you somehow forgot what you yourself wrote was
  Just avoid looking at anyone for longer than a second or two, but don’t try to look like you are avoiding looking at anyone. If in close proximity, acknowledge their existence and then focus on something else. If they start conversing, reciprocate but do not try to keep the conversation going if it trails off. If they don’t appear to open to a conversation and you are in close proximity, a small nod to indicate you noticed them and then changing your focus is a really good way to indicate you noticed them, but are not interested in interacting with them.
  Man, seems like it's more than just not staring to me. You actually call out " don’t try to look like you are avoiding looking at anyone" which is the opposite of staring. So you need to look at them, but not too much, just the magical right amount that you should know.
  Is being aware that initiating or dragging out conversations with women you don’t know often comes across as intimidating too difficult to understand?
  Nah, but I should be able to just keep to myself and not have a conversation without being treated like a predator for it. Again, you're being extremely dishonest in how you frame things. You wrote the whole list of things you think people should do and now you act like "it's just two simple things" ignoring what you wrote. Hell, I'd think these two message were written by two different people they're so disconnected.
  There isn’t a less complicated answer.
  JFC. You waffle so often I don't think you even know what you mean. " Is paying attention to whether you are staring too difficult?" also "it's a complicated answer." So why did you frame it like it was just two simple things when you know it's a complex answer? Because you're being dishonest.
  This shouldn't be a complex answer. The answer should be "don't treat people like shit without knowing them." That should be the answer. Not a list of magical rules every man has to follow just to make sure they get treated like a human.
  
  Man, seems like it’s more than just not staring to me. You actually call out " don’t try to look like you are avoiding looking at anyone" which is the opposite of staring. So you need to look at them, but not too much, just the magical right amount that you should know.
  Ah yes, the magical right amount of: a second or two
  Nah, but I should be able to just keep to myself and not have a conversation without being treated like a predator for it.
  Good news, you can! That follows the recommendation to not initiate a conversation. Hell, if they happen to start one you aren't obligated to participate!
  Again, you’re being extremely dishonest in how you frame things.
  No, I'm speaking from experience.
  JFC. You waffle so often I don’t think you even know what you mean. " Is paying attention to whether you are staring too difficult?" also “it’s a complicated answer.” So why did you frame it like it was just two simple things when you know it’s a complex answer? Because you’re being dishonest.
  lol
  The answer should be “don’t treat people like shit without knowing them.”
  What do you mean by not treating people like shit? Please explain without any examples, because that would make it complicated and dishonest.
  
  Lol so much bs in a single response without saying a damn thing. About what I expected. You even laughed at your own nonsense, so at least there's that I guess.
  It's clear you're not interested in a convo. Just misrepresenting things said over and over while not contributing to the conversation at all. I'm sure you have lots of experience being treated like a creep with that mindset, which makes this list make a lot of sense.
  
  Nah, but I should be able to just keep to myself and not have a conversation without being treated like a predator for it.
  Oh no! Society is judging you unfairly because of your outward appearance? Gee, that almost sounds like the flip side of what the women are complaining about. Sucks, don't it?
  The answer should be “don’t treat people like shit without knowing them.” That should be the answer.
  That's not going to work until everybody does it, which means the real answer is "actively work to stop other people from treating people like shit," and even more specifically, "understand who the aggressors and victims are so you don't make the problem worse by attacking people who are just trying to defend themselves."
  
  You sound mad at me for saying that I should be treated fairly. Women also deal with it yes. But I don't get why you feel the need to attack me for bringing it up. I'm sure you get upset if someone attacked a woman for being asked to be treated fairly.
  You seem very angry at the world to the point where you are attacking people who want to be your allies and want the same thing. You even say "don't make the problem worse by attacking people who are just trying to defend themselves" yet here you are with a sarcastic "oh no" and attacking me for literally just saying I want to be treated like a human. The hypocrisy is wild...
  
  You sound mad at me for saying that I should be treated fairly. Women also deal with it yes. But I don’t get why you feel the need to attack me for bringing it up. I’m sure you get upset if someone attacked a woman for being asked to be treated fairly.
  "Men need to get treated fairly too" is the gender equivalent of "white lives matter." It's tone-deaf at best, and more likely deliberately dishonest punching down. Just because a statement is true when considered alone, that doesn't mean the purpose of saying it can't be in bad faith when considering context. And that's exactly what's happening here.
  You aren't the victim here, and you know it. How do I know you know it? Because I'm also a man and I know I'm not the victim here either. As a man, I can authoritatively say that men are getting exactly the treatment we deserve. If we don't like it, it's on us to change our collective behavior. Period.
  
  If you're being treated like an animal in every encounter you have, that's probably a you issue. This advice will not help if no matter what you do or where you find yourself people perceive you as a non-human animal.
  If for some reason you are purposefully exaggerating, and know that this only really applies in specific instances, then it probably will still not help you because I'm not sure someone legitimately concerned about others would exaggerate in this situation.
  The reality is that no one is asking you to do anything. Women don't owe you anything and if you don't like the way they treat you and if you're unwilling to make yourself seem like less of a threat then feel free to be upset at men that have put us all in this position. Women should not have to sacrifice their safety for your comfort. If you want to feel more comfortable around them you might need to put in the work to make yourself comfortable to be around.
  
  This is missing the entire point.
  The fact that I have to go out of my way to make myself seem less like a threat, simply because of who I am, so that I'm treated like a human. There is this idea that you should be able to be yourself and not apologize for it. But I have to run through situations and make sure I do things, but not too much. I can't just keep to myself without being treated like I'm some threat. It's insulting and it errodes empathy.
  Women should not have to sacrifice their safety for your comfort.
  Who the fuck is saying this? I'm asking to be treated like a person and not a predator simply because of my gender. I thought treating people poorly based solely on their gender was wrong. Guess that only goes one way.
  What are women doing to make me feel like they won't attack me? Do they have to disprove stereotypes just to be treated like a person? No. I have to make sure I make women feel comfortable and do this checklist of things just to be treated normally? I can't just keep to myself?
  Why can't we just treat people like people and not judge an entire gender, on either side, with one sweeping stroke.
  
  You don't "have to" do anything. If you want to be treated in a specific way, you may have to act a specific way. That's how society is. How are you not being treated like a human? You're being treated the way that person treats all men. You're not being targeted specifically. That IS how they treat humans. In what direction do you think it erodes empathy? Is it eroding your empathy towards women?
  I'm saying it. Right now. If a woman feels safer pretending to be on the phone with a friend if she finds herself alone with someone she feels threatened by then she should do so without guilt. That goes regardless of sex or gender or any characteristic of either party.
  Women have to do a lot every day to be viewed as equal or more than their gender. Women are groped in stores and on transit and in public places. They are made to feel unsafe and disrespected by a large portion of society. Why can't they just be themselves? Why can't they just act normally?
  It's very easy for men to say "why can't we treat everyone like equals" when women are still struggling for equality. Trust me, that's what we want, but we're not there yet, and you focusing on how a subset of women treat men in specific circumstances is part of the problem. Women would gladly trade, so our main concern could be that men crossed to the far side of the street instead of is this guy just waiting for the right moment. It's not a fun or healthy way to live. It seems like you're right that empathy is eroding, because if I was a guy I'd be able to recognize that it's not personal and she's doing it for her safety.
  
  I think that in this thread there is a lot of talking over people. It seems like you are coming from the empathy angle and trying to offer the most realistic solution, but a lot of the commentors aren't talking about the actual solution. A lot of them are simply stating "i should not have to ensure i do not look like a threat" in a vacuum, which is true. They're not arguing against the idea that "women should not have to worry about men", they're simply idealizing. Unfortunately things become more complicated when trying to blend those ideas.
  
  K
  
  So I have to run through a check list for every single encounter I have just to not be treated like an animal. I can’t just exist and go about my life?
  That's what women apparently have to do to avoid being treated like meat. They can't "just exist and go about [their lives]," so why do you think you should be entitled to?
  If you don't like it, help fix the root of the problem instead of bitching about your false victimhood.
  
  Who says they can't? They should be able to.
  Here's a crazy idea, instead of making men suffer because women suffer, we just stop.
  Well your last sentence really shows you don't care. Let's see how this works. If you don't like women getting treated like meat help fix the root of the problem instead of bitching about your false victimhood. Am I doing it right? It's this how we help each other fix problems?
  
  Here's a crazy idea, instead of making men suffer because women suffer, we just stop.
  Of course! Women, if a strange man approaches you just say "no thank you." Legally they cannot assault you, and it is socially unacceptable for them to do so.
  Problem solved!
  
  Here’s a crazy idea, instead of making men suffer because women suffer, we just stop.
  Okay, so how are you, personally gonna make people stop?
  Or are you just going to do nothing (except attack the "uppity" women who are complaining about it) and consider it to be not your problem? 'Cause the result of that is women continuing to suffer while men enjoy privilege. It sure sounds like that's what you actually want.
  Let’s see how this works. If you don’t like women getting treated like meat help fix the root of the problem instead of bitching about your false victimhood. Am I doing it right? It’s this how we help each other fix problems?
  Assuming you understand that "the root of the problem" is male aggression, yes! As I wrote a minute ago in another comment:
  ...the real answer is “actively work to stop other people from treating people like shit,” and even more specifically, “understand who the aggressors and victims are so you don’t make the problem worse by attacking people who are just trying to defend themselves.”
  If us non-sexist/predatory men don't want to be lumped in with the assholes, it's our obligation to actively ally with women to stop the assholes. It doesn't fucking matter if it's "fair" or not; that's just how the world works.
  
  Or are you just going to do nothing (except attack the "uppity" women who are complaining about it) and consider it to be not your problem?
  Ok.
  Never once did I do this. I've been saying, over and over, that everyone should be treated like a human. All I can do is be the change I want to see.
  You then just go on to blame men for everything. Men are the problem. Women being treated poorly, men's fault. Men being treated poorly, men's fault.
  So women never do anything wrong and it's all men's fault. And I need to magically fix the whole problem or shut up and deal with being treated poorly.
  You are a toxic person. You are dishonest, putting words in my mouth. You are the reason why people don't take feminism seriously. You're more interested in bashing men than trying to solve anything.
  I'm done. I'm not going to waste my time without someone who can't have a conversation without sarcastic attacks and lying about my actions and stances. Get blocked troll.
  
  Take a moment and think about the consequences here for women vs the consequences for men.
  Women: at risk of sexual assault in a society that down plays it, victim blames, and often fails to bring justice to the purpitrator.
  Men: at risk of women giving them dirty looks.
  This is like complaining about needing to ask for someone to unlock something for you because "I'm not going to steal anything, why are you treating me like a criminal?"
  
  Never once did I do this. I’ve been saying, over and over, that everyone should be treated like a human. All I can do is be the change I want to see.
  No, that's not all you can do. Namely, you can quit pretending that the bad behavior of other men isn't your problem if you don't want to be lumped in with them.
  You then just go on to blame men for everything. Men are the problem. Women being treated poorly, men’s fault. Men being treated poorly, men’s fault.
  Yeah, that's because it unironically is. Because in a male-dominated society men have the power and women don't. What part of privilege and power dynamics do you not understand?
  You are a toxic person. You are dishonest, putting words in my mouth. You are the reason why people don’t take feminism seriously. You’re more interested in bashing men than trying to solve anything.
  You're the toxic one here. You're trying to DARVO the situation to make men the victims, but we're just not.
  I’m done. I’m not going to waste my time without someone who can’t have a conversation without sarcastic attacks and lying about my actions and stances. Get blocked troll.
  LOL, you're just whining because you can't deal with having your privilege challenged.
  
  You say that like a joke but that is unironically what I do. Am I an idiot?
  
  The only joke part is calling them victims. All of the rest is honest advice and you are doing the right things.
- But isn't that also true with snakes? All of the times that I've stumbled across copperheads or rattlesnakes, they've just wanted to do their thing, and go on their way. They didn't want to bite me. And 99.999% of the time, as long as you back off, the snake isn't going to do anything.
  ...Except there's that .001% of the time when a snake is going to chase someone, and attack them. And that makes everyone terrified of all snakes, because they never know which one is going to be that .001%.
  It's understandable, but it's not fair, and yeah, it sucks to have people think you're a threat when you're trying hard not to be.
- Unfortunately, there's no one stop shop or one size fits all solution to this, I think. If there were, bad actors would abuse it and it wouldn't work anymore. If you're around people regularly and you'd like them to know you're no threat, getting to know them in a neighborly fashion might help a bit, but I'm afraid that in general we're just dealing with a mass erosion of trust in general.
  
  Yes that's what the strange woman wants, the strange man she's afraid of by default to make contact with her.
  Sarcasm aside, I do not and will not talk to strange women specifically because I know they're already uncomfortable and I don't want to make it worse, plus I'm likely busy myself.
- Hating and fearing are not the same
  
  Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.
  
  Nvm I will change my mind if Yoda is the one arguing against me
- ... there's no need to prepare your keys to gouge my eyes out.
  When I see women do this around me, I feel a little glad for them that they don't need to do this and a little sad they don't (and really can't) know that they don't need to do this.
  I understand feeling hurt that someone might be afraid of me, but that gets erased when I exercise a little empathy for that person who is afraid.
- If its late at night and a woman is walking in front of you, lower your speed. Let them get some extra distance. Then its not so awkward for you going the same way either.
  I'm going to disagree because then it seems like you are following them. Changing your behavior because they are present is paying a lot of attention to them.
  Acknowledging them, maybe stating where you are going without asking where they are going, and passing at the same speed has been very successful in my experience. The worst reaction I ever received was "I don't care where you are going" which means they were comfortable giving me grief. The best reaction, which has happened a few times over the years, was a response that they were going the same way and asking to walk with me.
  
  I generally walk faster then other people, so that'll be a hard one. I get really irritated at work when people won't get the fuck out of the walkway.
  
  Yikes - no, not at all.
  If it’s late, separate yourself from anyone else that might be a threat to you or your safety. Don’t encroach on peoples’ personal bubbles. Be aware of someone encroaching upon your own.
  Walk swiftly, with a purpose and destination in mind. Be aware. If you notice that you’re inadvertently following someone after a while (it doesn’t matter what their gender is), consider an alternate route, or find somewhere to divert for a period of time — as a courtesy. It’s not going to become some new form of societal expectation.
  Expecting everyone in the world to behave in some specific way that you personally believe is asinine. You cannot control what other people are going to do, you can only control your reactions.
- But counterpoint; why do you care what other people feel around you? The best response to women scared you're going to rape them is to not rape them.
  Anything past that is your own insecurity and need for emotional validation. Sure, you could devote time and energy into being an activist in whatever forms you want, but some strange lady you don't know is still going to cut across the sidewalk when they see you approaching. AND YOU CAN'T DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT. DEAL WITH IT.
  Men "overcompensating" for this valid fear is what's driving movements of really stupid, shitty men who like to roleplay stories on reddit how they had the cops called on them for hanging out near a playground. We don't need to do this. Make the world better, make your emotional state better. Don't worry what other people feel or think, you will never be broadly loved by everyone, or even broadly accepted by everyone. You'll be lucky if you have several people in your ENTIRE LIFE who trust you. That's the sticks. Sorry kid.
  edit: i stand by it, and the screaming "sexism!" outrage only further validates my belief that you're all living in a fantasy world online where you think someone is coming. Where you think things are going to change.
  NOBODY IS COMING. You have to adjust your own thinking and feeling about the world if you're going to survive it. It gets so much worse guys, these little issues with women thinking you're bad? You will wish one day that was the worst issue you ever had to juggle over in your head, if you can get past it sooner than later you will save yourself and your loved-ones a lot of heartache as you have your inevitable meltdown we all have eventually.
  
  Bad take, you're dismissing society's effect on the psyche of many men by saying these things
  
  I'm also empowering the men who do need to hear this. Nothing is black and white, I accept that my message my make some people uncomfortable and that's not my problem honestly. As you get older you realize that truth is something most people dance around and avoid. All of us. And you're just going to burn yourself to the ground trying to reconcile these things you just can't fucking change, but keep telling yourself lies that the world will change for you.
  Nobody is coming. You need to deal with pain and let it go so you can live a fulfilling life with other people. You are the ONLY one who can make that happen.

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