The while the US talks a big game, China plays a big game.

But At wHaT CoST?

China: we are building out infrastructure because it is good for the people

Lemmitors: no, that's actually because they're very authoritarian, building public infrastructure for public use is exactly what evil dictators do

US: We need to make 500 more billionaires, and we could probably do both the same time, but why risk it.

People fall for the con man that only has "concepts of plans", the con man with actual "plans" is literally invisible to them let alone a blind spot.

He’s there to line his pockets, that’s it.

Well, that and widespread promotion of fascism, misogyny, homophobia, and white supremacy.

I'm gonna be "that guy" for a bit and say that I was never into him even back when everyone loved him.

Musk has nothing to do with the woes of the California High Speed Rail project. He’s just commenting from the peanut gallery and getting picked up by the news. He admitted hyperloop was never a serious proposal and it never factored into the actual decision making process for the project.

The reason the project is so delayed is because of democracy. It’s a long distance route so it crosses many different county lines and properties along the way. Each of those counties have their own municipal governments involved and there are lots of private property holders along the way too. Couple that with the public consultations, the bidding for all the contracts, the environmental assessments (which are the bane of every construction project in California), and the high cost of labour for workers in California (and USA generally).

All of this comes long after the US had engaged in the process of outsourcing manufacturing and importing (in the form of undocumented workers and other low-skilled migrants) its construction workforce. This has left the US very badly equipped to handle large construction projects even after finally approving them. The US is a very different country, skill- and education-wise, from the New Deal era of the 1930s.

You can also look at Japan, where railroad isn't even the main moneymaker for the companies that operate them (pretty sure some even run at a loss). Instead, it's the hubs that those railroads create (ie all the real state connected to the stations which is owned by the railroad companies and can be rented out to businesses).

In essence, railroads shouldn't be built because they're profitable. They should be built because they're a basic necessity for unifying a country/region. The profit comes from the increased mobility and the new hubs and opportunity that mobility can create. But most politicians are too short-sighted for this.

i have many issues with the ethics and morals that comprise the current chinese dynasty. but they are extraordinarily rational when it comes to the great imperial forces of the world. it costs a government less, long term, to implement big public works projects. the technology for high speed rail will reduce traffic jams, reduce infrastructure maintenance costs, and boost the economy but it will take 30 years to bear fruit? china will do that because it's cheaper.

meanwhile here everything is analyzed and implemented in 2 year increments. it's unsustainable

This is probably unachievable in Western countries, since they expect the metro systems to make a profit, which makes no sense whatsoever.

It's the difference between making profit

• Widening gulf between price and cost, then pocketing the difference

And value

• Widening the gulf between cost and utility, then increasing the overall value of the economic system

Businesses are absolutely profiting off Chinese HSR. They just aren't the rail network operators. They're the operator's clients.

Incidentally, America does have comparable systems. We just do it for cars and planes, not trains

I remember when the Texas Lone Star Rail project between Austin and San Antonio finally got "fully funded." I was in college taking a transportation systems course, and one of our guest speakers was the director of the project.

I realized how doomed we were when I found out she was the only employee of the project and only worked 20 hours a week - almost all of which was speaking engagements.

mire any project in beuracracy and lawsuits

That may have been true in the 2010s for cal hsr, but at this point the thing holding it up is just money. The environmental review is done for the segment between san Francisco and Los Angeles and everything has been cleared and construction is going on for the initial Bakersfield to Merced segment. There's just no money to build it, the only consistent form of funding for it is California cap and trade sales which only nets $750 million annually on a project estimated to cost well over $100 billion. They occasionally get some money from the federal government only to have that taken away or suspended whenever trump gets in office.

That's what really separates China from the US, the people in control of their tax dollars are using them to build infrastructure for the people instead of using it on billionaire tax breaks and to make jets and bombs to drop on Palestinians.

Exactly- California has to negotiate with every landowner, government agency, business, etc. to build a railroad. China doesn't have to deal with that. If they want to tear down a building, they just do it without caring much about the person they are taking it from. Authoritarianism is really good at doing big things really fast.

Pretty sure like 80% of it got put on hold indefinitely. They are doing only like Fresno to Bakersfield or some bullshit instead.

It’s more the fact that our topography is extremely difficult to make level to the degree that true high speed rail needs. Most of the environmental review, and land acquisition (the hardest and legal parts) are mostly wrapped up from San Jose into LA now.

The bigger issue with what’s made this project take more time IMO (and as a California resident) is that we basically refused the help of high speed rail engineers and designers from the EU and Japan. They showed up the day after the initial prop passed to help and we turned them away. We like to try and do things our own way here in Cali and sometimes that really bites us in the ass. I’d rather have some of those tax dollars “leave” the state or country in exchange for knowledgeable people helping us get it done faster.

Also, I’d advise anybody who can to drive around the Central Valley. The scale of high speed rail projects and the size of them is INSANE. Especially compared to the surrounding environment.

It makes sense in the regard to illustrate that the US. Is lagging behind most other countries. They talk a big game as if they are the best in the world when they're 50-60 years behind everyone else. To show a comparison for a government that does exist to serve its citizens, as opposed to a government that only claims to serve its citizens.

Yes, serving citizens means giving millions in subsidies to billionaires for a scam that would only serve the upper class if it were even real.

Next four largest high speed rail networks are in Spain, Japan, France, and Germany... which might not be perfect democracies, but are certainly far from the worst.

Democracy isn't the problem, and you certainly don't need to be a dictatorship to get things done.

The US will never have true high speed rail because they would rather deliver maximum profit to shareholders than acturally improve anything, thats why in a decade from now China will probrally still have a pretty good standard of living while the US will become a fascist undeveloped hellhole.

The concept that a purely "authoritarian" state would build a widely beneficial and affordable public transportation system is an oxymoron. China built it because their railways were aging and they needed a new railsystem.

So China didn't consult EVERY affected person or NGOs. But even in America, the govt does that and then just ignores all the feedback and does what they want anyway as long as there was a way for someone to make more money.

China has a higher sense of representative government than the US does.

BuT aT wHaT cOsT

The US allows for eminent domain as well, no?

"The glorious democracy where 75.000 people have gotten disappeared this year without due process can't build a railway because it's too democratic"

The climate might be past every tipping point, but by golly the people who own land weren't treated unfairly.

Obligatory "but at what cost!"

And Chinese citizens consistently poll as being more satisfied with their election options and outcomes than Americans. Honestly, when you're at the point where you're saying that China is authoritarian but worlds largest prison state USA isn't, you're basically just giving up the game that you're using the word as a euphemism for "non-western"

The point of hyperloop and the boring company was to kill real public transport projects. He probably doesn't care if those companies make money or not. As long as he can fuck up public transportation projects by claiming to a better alternative.

I doubt it. It took 5 years to build the first 515 km Shinkansen line, in Japan. A coast to coast railway is a major project. 1 year is not a reasonable timeframe. Infrastructure is slow to build.

It took 5 years of construction to open the south east TGV line, 7 years to complete it.

It took 24 years to construct I-90 from coast to coast, and that's with most of the east coast segments being preexisting toll roads.

All major Infrastructure projects are slow. Your timeline is not realistic.

It is entirely about the political will. If they had it they could do it. We certainly have the resources and skills.

Democracy is being forced to vote for democrats or else we gets the republicans again? Sure.

The west is fighting itself and only planning 1/4 years in advance.

FIFY

piss off voters

Do you think voters hate cheap, fast, convenient travel? Do you think they'd just hate freedom healthcare too?

Every system is imperfect when taken to its natural conclusion, that's why most rich countries are moving towards social democracies in which capitalism is generally restrained, but that's a fairly new thing in its own right, and what's to say capitalism won't corrode them in time? Very little, grand scheme of thing. This is why the founding fathers talked about a rolling revolution, needing each generation to see clearly as threats would be constant. Instead we watch Netflix while our decisions are made for us in halls we will likely never walk. Unfortunately I think we are in for the suffering phase, Hindus say we're already in kali yuga, which is the FAFO end of the whole cosmic cycle, hopefully towards the very end if you believe in such things. Personally I think we're just fucked.

You don't have to have the authoritarianism, China is simply doing the most cost effective way of providing public transit for as many people as possible.

I'm seeing this post trending on the frontpage, seems like a lot of people care. You can keep malding, though, that's amusing too

It's only played out for those content with their table scraps

Solidarity amongst the working class, regardless of imaginary borders.

Chinese propagandists still care, you can find them all over Lemmy.

So brave

Because they actually provide for their citizens as opposed to the US who is all talk?

username checks out