1y ago

Ubuntu's Mozillateam PPA now forcing users over to snap install for Firefox.

What use to be the PPA that allowed Ubuntu users to use native .deb packages for Firefox has recently changed to the same meta package that forces installation of Snap and the Firefox snap package.

I am having to remove the meta package, then re-uninstall the snap firefox, then re-uninstall Snap, then install pin the latest build I could get (firefox_116.0.3+build2-0ubuntu0.22.04.1~mt1_arm64.deb) to keep the native firefox build.

I'm so done with Ubuntu.

240 comments

Yeah they’re all in on snaps. Vote with your distro choice.
- What I don't get is why. What with the recent Red Hat debacle one would think Canonical would make a stronger case as opposed to force feeding the issue.
  
  Because it’s canonical’s thing they’re marketing to server markets
- I'm afraid they'll break off Debian one day. Supporting snap is one thing, sabotaging well established user cases (apt installing deb, not being a snap prozy) is another.
  
  On my corporate laptop, because they require ubuntu to.. well spy on us, I wrote a interface in front of snap to works like flatpak.. as snap forcing through on everything I work on...
  At least I tried to disable it. and failed, so I wrote a piece of junk code to accomodate my flatpak muscle memory
- So, as someone that's been on flavors of Ubuntu/Linux Mint for me personal computer since Breezy Badger, any good distro recommendations? I've been using Ubuntu Mate and upgrading in place for the last ~5 years, so I've mostly avoided Snaps, but I'm looking to upgrade my computer and I'm probably going to need a fresh install. I'd like to stay on the Ubuntu/Debian tree, but I've been using RHEL on my work computer for a while now, so I'm not totally unfamiliar with that distro branch.
  Also, should I be as concerned about Flatpaks as everyone seems to be concerned about Snaps?
  
  Linux Mint doesn’t do snaps, you can add them but they are more flatpak friendly out of the box (software manager supports deb and flatpak install and upgrades). They also have a Debian edition that is nearly identical once installed.
  For stuff like Firefox and other areas Ubuntu is pushing snaps, Mint builds their own deb.
  That is to say, if you liked Mint there’s not a big reason not to use it.
  
  I was on Ubuntu for almost ten years. The snap BS really started bugging me a few years ago, and I started distro hopping to find a new home.
  If you're really wanting to stick with an Ubuntu derivative, you could try Pop!_OS. They remove Snaps.
  I ended up settling on Manjaro. Access to the AUR is pretty awesome.
  
  I hear ya and have recently been scaling-back my personal use of Ubuntu. I am a long-time Debian user for servers (since around the time potato was released), but always found it far too "long in the tooth" for use on a desktop. When Ubuntu first came out, it filled that gap perfectly and it was always my recommendation to people that wanted/needed to use Linux and needed it to "just work". This is especially the case with laptops. However, times have changed and vanilla Debian is actually a viable distro as long as you are not on the bleeding edge hardware-wise and/or don't want/need the very latest desktop software.
  For my personal desktop, I've actually been using Linux Mint since around the time Ubuntu switched to Unity. From the moves Mint has been making lately, it seems that they are also wary of Canonical (i.e. having to revert things like snap out of their Ubuntu base). Mint has always been hedging their bets through their LMDE release, so I would not be surprised if they cut over vanilla Debian as their base sometime soon. I have LMDE on some older machines and it works great (they are still based on bullseye, last I checked).
  
  I was a Xubuntu user for about 15 years but have an old EeePC running Debian.
  I just recently moved my main, home computer (10+ yo EliteBook) to Debian 12 and am very happy. I will be soon moving my amateur radio "shack" computer (bought last year) to Debian as well.
  Forcing Snaps and Snaps' terrible usage of disk space (in my experience) is what made me move. The annoying Firefox update warning only served to aggravate me further.
  I do use a couple Flatpaks (did with Ubuntu as well) but it was my choice - not a requirement. I haven't had any disk use problems or bad experiences with them.
  
  I can't comment on specifics. I'm back in linux after several years away in mac land. The snap experience is awful, and confusing. I have not had the same experience with flatpaks. They seem to act more like regular apps that you update. The issue with snap is that firefox will say the snap needs to update, and that the update is pending warning my I only have days (or hours) to use it, but no way to actually do the upgrade. Then it will say its upgrading, but nothing happens. I just keep using firefox, and every once in a while it may say something like the update failed (I honestly can't remember, since I just ignore any notification with the word 'snap' in it since they're all meaningless). Eventually, when I quit firefox, it might update and quit pestering me. But how knows? Maybe it won't upgrade, and then I'll open it again and it won't be upgraded.
  Flatpaks, I can just update in the package GUI (Discover for me, since KDE) alongside other updates, and we roll on.
  Distro-wise, I dunno :/ I like ubuntu cause its more standardized in terms of software availability --- most things will support an ubuntu package. However, I'm really considering just jumping into debian and going with the rolling releases.
  
  Flatpak won't replace RPM on Fedora, so, use Fedora... and be happy, or Nobara for gaming
  
  Check out VanillaOS. I think it's pretty neat. Their webpage doesn't really get into the benefits as much as I think they should, but a very quick summary is that it leverages distrobox and some custom package manager to allow you to seamlessly install and run packages from other distros. It's also kind of an immutable OS (but not really). It lets you pick which types of apps you want during the install (snaps, fltapak, AppImage, etc)
  I am not super in the loop about why people are so against snaps, but I don't like the centralized nature of them, and if that's also the general concern, then flatpak should be fine, since it's decentralized.
  I saw a couple youtube videos about VanillaOS; I could certainly find you one of them if you want to know more.
  
  Imo avoid Mint. If you like apt/debs PopOS.
  If you don't care about debs Fedora is an awesome distro. I've used it for several years and upgrades never go bad.

Imagine having to fight your OS to do what you want. True Windows experience.
- Yes exactly. This is the main problem. It's one thing to offer Snaps as an alternative, but to force them on users is not the Libre/FOSS way at all.
  I switched away to Mint and I'm very glad I did. I'm in control and it works perfectly. Fantastic distro. No Snaps BS and it uses less RAM and is faster than Ubuntu.
  I would encourage all Ubuntu users to switch to Mint. You won't regret it.
- It's no wonder Canonical is partnering up with Microsoft to EEE Linux

You know what, enough is enough. Snaps run like shit in my system (IDK/DC why), I hate companies forcing their shit down my throat, and I was planning a clean reinstall anyway from Ubuntu 20.04 to 22.04. Might as well use the opportunity to go back to Debian. Or Mint. Or Mint Debian Edition. Who knows.
Next on the news, Ubuntu ("humanity") gets renamed to Amasimba ("shit"). /s
- Feeling bold? Try MenuetOS, it even claims to have an http client.
  
  TempleOS and give it a try. The prophet Terry will be smilling from the Heaven TempleOS
  
  I toyed with the idea of gentoo. Not because I want a rolling distro, but because of that 4chan meme.
  
  Redistribution, reverse engineering, disassembly or decompilation prohibited without permission from the copyright holders.
  no
- After using it since Lucid Lynx 10.04, I switched from Ubuntu to Mint last weekend. I'm lazy about distros these days, and I really didn't want to switch, but Firefox instability was driving me nuts. The web browser must be reliable, IMO. It's a fundamental requirement for a desktop OS, and this problem didn't exist before snaps.
- MX23, even no systemd
  
  This is the way.
  
  I don't even mind systemd to be honest. My bone to pick against Poettering is because of pulseaudio.
- Why not slackware /s

https://www.debian.org/download

There's a simple reason why Mozilla/canonical does this and that is security fixes. Due to the difference in support cycles of Firefox and Ubuntu LTS versions fixes would have to be manually backported to the system Firefox version and newer versions won't run due to library dependencies. Snap solves all of that.
Don't get me wrong though, snap is still terrible, but other than flatpak or doing the work of backporting it's the only option to get security fixes to Ubuntu
- Previous to the switch to snaps, Ubuntu was providing the latest version of Firefox built for each supported Ubuntu release. I'm sure this was more work, but the older system library version issue was not a blocker.
  Edit: in fact, Mozilla still provides an apt repo with Firefox deb packages built for each supported Ubuntu release.
  
  But around the same time mozilla shortened the support cycles for their lts releases
- and newer versions won’t run due to library dependencies.
  Mozilla seem to be able to limit library dependencies in their builds: https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/system-requirements/
- But are they actually doing this? I am not seeing any changes: https://launchpad.net/~mozillateam/+archive/ubuntu/ppa still has the .deb packages
- literally every other distribution can solve this problem but Ubuntu can't?
  
  Not really. After working with CentOS (RIP) for a half decade, that Firefox version was so out of date I was practically in diapers when it came out. Getting the latest version of Firefox was such a pain that my org didn't bother even if it would have given us some niceties.
  LTS and other "enterprise" distros don't push the latest version precisely because of dependencies.

I warned you guys. "It's so easy, just do these three steps if you don't like snaps" but then later they tighten the vise
- Yeah. I switched away from Ubuntu for all this crap.
  I moved to Fedora for my laptop & desktop, and Debian for my home server. I'm considering switching everything to Debian eventually, but there's a couple dedicated repos that make using Fedora on my laptop much easier for now.
  
  I'm considering switching everything to Debian eventually, but there's a couple dedicated repos that make using Fedora on my laptop much easier for now.
  I'd recommend against that. Debian is fantastic for a server, but I think it leaves a lot to be desired as a workstation OS as compared to Fedora.
  You can get it there/make it that way, but Fedora is just better from a user experience/convenience perspective out of the box.

There are several high quality community run distributions which aren't beholden to corporate tools.

Hot take: PPAs suck and snaps/flatpaks are better.
With PPAs, inevitably some repo that hasn’t been updated since 2015 causes dependency conflicts and you have to sit there and troubleshoot, or pick between the software you need and actually having an OS that’s not EOL. With snaps, you can keep your decade old dependencies all bundled up and still upgrade your system even if the package maintainer has abandoned it.
- The issue people have with snaps isn't the containerization or the bundles, but the proprietary backend. There is no way to point the snaps at a different store other than the one canonical controls. Canonicals forcing snaps on people pisses a lot of people off because it's a blatant power grab, an attempt to get people dependent on something they have control over in a microsoft-esque move. Flatpaks and docker don't have that issue.
- Hot take: it doesn't feel nice to have a change forced.
  It should be the personal preference of the user to decide whether to use native or snap/flatpak. If native package manager decide to not support the package any longer it would be better to make user aware and stop maintaining app, than to install a snap package. This is a user's decision.
  Also this can have far reaching consequences. Imagine you cannot use/install snaps on your machine due some reason, what now?
- I tried so hard to embrace snaps and flatpak. I really did. But the snap service kept bogging down. Installs specifically of Firefox were ponderously slow to start up. And ultimately I ended up with regular installs, PPAs, snaps, and flatpaks all together with their own daemons, update paths, and quirks sucking up my system bandwidth and emotional resources. System was constantly slow. Felt like I was running Windows.
  I flipped over to endeavours, really enjoying it. Feels like Ubuntu did in the earlier years. Great support community, lots of choice, but a straightforward path to just using your system if that's what you're there for. And the same computer runs a good 25% faster.
- Valid opinion and immutable distros like silverblue might be where the future is headed.
  It's not the point though, I'm not going with a distro that tries to force their proprietary solution on me.
  
  Not a fan of immutable distros like Silverblue because you’re giving a lot of control to the upstream, unless you have the ability and time to maintain those system images yourself. And if you’re doing that, except for within an organization, there’s not a huge reason to not just use a traditional distro.
  If you don’t want that control, they’re great.
- PPAs suck, no doubt. But the thing is, if snap is so superior, just switch your whole distribution over to it and be done with it. Don't do this underhanded switcheroo with individual packages spread over so many years.
  The crux here is ultimately that snap just doesn't look to be up to the task of replacing .deb, otherwise they'd have already done it. But they still want their proprietary appstore, so they have to make snap relevant by force.
- Or how about... they each have their advantages and disadvantages, and therefore are each better suited to different uses and it doesn't have to be a competition?
  
  So your saying a Snap based Firefox use case is limited to downloading a different browser... so it's effectively IE6? I agree, if that's what you are saying.
- I can agree with that only if they solved the problems with extensions and a few other features that were not working with the snap version. If they did not, then they are assholes.
  I use keepass to fill login forms, and that does not work with the snap version.
  
  Just curious if you know why? I thought snap was just a package format, not a siloed container.
- I haven't had any problems with using Snap. I am currently switching from Chrome to Firefox. Firefox has ran great with Snaps so far.
  But I also have an Nvidia RTX 3080. The Linux community hates both Snap and Nvidia. But they are working fine for me.
  I tried PopOS but they didn't have the current drivers for my Nvidia card, so I switched back to Ubuntu. This was about a year or so ago
  
  I'm on ARM, arm64 to be more specific. There's no native Widevine package for the browsers. There is a way to rip it from the new chromeOS for arm64, and to then plug it into chromium and firefox... but not with snap firefox. And to top it off, flatpak doesn't even have firefox or thunderbird for arm64.
  
  The NVIDIA driver in Pop!_OS is currently 535.98. I've been using a RTX 3080 with Pop!_OS since the pandemic lockdown.
- Yes, that is the acceptable use case. Aging, I maintained software in a usable form. Not “we’re showing off our container engine so everyone has to use it now”.
- Hot take: PPAs suck
  Agreed. I'd rather install manually than use a third-party PPA. I've had way too many problems, especially when it comes time for an OS upgrade.
  snaps/flatpaks are better
  I see this as a false dichotomy. The point of a distro is to have a wide array of stuff tested and available in official repositories. If the official repositories only contain half-assed snap ports, what's the point? I either suffer with a shitty Firefox or jump through more hoops than ever before to install it from external sources? Ugh.
  I'm on Ubuntu again, and I've had it up to my eyeballs with snaps. When the time comes to upgrade again, I'm either going back upstream to Debian, or downstream to a de-snapped Ubuntu derivative.

I like the approach Pop OS takes. Their software store lets you choose between deb or flatpak when you install software. I've had issues with flatpak versions of some software, and flipping to the deb package usually fixes it.
- Fedora does the same thing where you can choose between RPM or Flatpak. The only flatpak package I've ever had problems with was OnlyOffice, and the issue was that the scaling was blown way out of proportions. Switching to the RPM version resolved that.
  
  Mint does this, too!
- @Linuturk @PseudoSpock My problem here is that I don't understand the purpose of flatpak when Deb seems to have everything from my experience, but I'd love to be proven wrong.
  
  Flatpaks are usually fresher than point release distro packages
  Flatpaks are distro-agnostic
  Flatpaks are easily containerized for increased security and privacy
  Flatpaks can guarantee you have a known-good dependency chain directly tested by the developers/maintainers themselves
  Flatpaks can be installed and managed entirely in userspace
  
  When a project doesn't publish a deb or other native package, or when the flatpak is much newer and has features you need.
  
  Flatpacks include the dependencies with the application. So different flatpacks may have the same libraries over and over, wasting space. RPM/DEB install just the application and each dependency is a separate package, and packages that use the same dependency will share the one copy. So flatpack is better for consistency when running the app because everyone is running the same dependency version, and space isn’t as much of an issue anymore with nearly everything having more than enough storage.

If you don't embrace snaps just don't use Ubuntu.
- Hence me now moving off of it.
  
  I'm curious, what are you considering moving into?

LibreWolf is a Firefox fork with features removed which we don't want (Telemetry, Pocket, ...) and a few (privacy) features enabled (which can be deactivated if they're too annoying). I didn't had any issues with Firefox extensions as well.
I'm currently using it on Debian and it runs smoothly. Recent Ubuntu versions are also supported and you can install them via your package manager, see here.
- I've recently distro hopped and the new distro came with Firefox preinstalled (had arch before but with xfs and wanted btrf snapshots).
  Do you think its telemetry is so bad? I want to help Mozilla to some extent to keep them working on Firefox as I think Librewolf isn't showing much usage or support for Firefox itself.
  
  @hornedfiend @Seltsamsel That's a good question and got me curious. I had a look at Telemetry collection and deletion from Mozilla. You can enter about:telemetry in the address bar to see what Firefox is collecting (even if it is not being sent).
  
  You shouldbea able to turn off from settings. More options are present in the config. You can find github guides doing more hardening for sedurity and privacy.
  Not sure about librewolf specifically but most of these firefox forks do these initial setups for you and maybeave a couple of addons preinstalled. You would still be using firefox. Beyond crash reports and some reduced usage metrics turning them off should hinder firefox much.

Time to switch to Mint ( or Debian ). I have not like Ubuntu for a while but this forced match to snaps seems too much.
I use Arch myself. I have been considering trying Debian Stable with Distrobox / Arch. The stability of Debian with a totally current and massive package inventory ( thank you AUR ) sounds like perhaps the best of all worlds.
- This is on an arm64 (m1) platform, in a VM.

I stopped using Ubuntu because of snap a while ago. I tend to run Linux on older machines and flat packs tend to take much longer to load than native apps. I get that they have their purpose but I would prefer to choose to use rather than be forced. I’m currently trying out POP_OS! and it’s a welcome flavor of Ubuntu
- They forget this
  Most normies using linux distros use it because they don't have 16gb of ram and a massive ssd
  Now the most mainstream linux distro does a lil trolling
- Fedora spins time!

yay! another company damaging itself!

I'm a bit confused to see that the hate falls entirely on ubuntu. Isn't the change in the ppa of mozillateam, ~~owned by mozilla~~?
Edit: It seems that mozillateam is actually ubuntu.
- Was there even a change to the Firefox PPA? I am not seeing a change.

I use the binary provided by Mozilla at https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/
I even wrote an installation script that takes care of it all. (For amd64, not arm64. I'm not sure if they provide a stand-alone arm build.)
- TIL about desktop-file-edit.
  I’ve been doing desktop files by hand for years.
  My favorite thing about the Mozilla binary is that it auto updates just like Windows, as long as you have write permissions.
  
  I tend to do the same. Can you link it ?

What's up with the hate on snaps, again, please anyone?
- There is only a single Snap server, and it is a proprietary one exclusive to Canonical
  Upgrades are pushed in a mandatory fashion, which means things will break if a bad upgrade ever gets pushed
  Snaps have about the same integration issues that Flatpaks have due to their sandboxing, but overcoming them is even harder due to lack of tools on the Snap side of things
  Snaps are mostly Ubuntu-centric, and don't quite work on other distros
  
  Mostly agree, except the last two points. Snaps are available anywhere...if you so wish (I wouldn't).
  The biggest issue with snaps is that they are SLOOOOOOOW when compared to a standard binary install, or even Flatpak. Most of this has to do with fuse, but when you have many versions of a specific package, it just gets slower and slower.
  The local versioning system also takes up a ton of local space by not expiring caches regularly, so it's not fit for lightweight installs.
- For me it's the fact that Ubuntu forcefully shove snap into my system when I want the normal deb install with apt. I'm sure snap has gone better over the years but this is something that I absolutely hate. When I want to use snap/flatpak, I can use snap/flatpak install, and when I say apt install it should be deb install as it's supposed to be as a Debian variant. Linux tools has always been known for doing exactly what is told, whereas what Ubuntu is recently doing is the opposite of it
  
  I mean the alternative would be to just stop providing the package at all I guess? Like it seems they want to switch to snap.
- While I'm sure some people hate snap in general, most people simply hate being forced to use it. Or rather, bring forced to switch distro and reinstall everything.
- Beyond the complaints about Canonical's hostility to Flatpak and other formats, but the real risk snap poses is that Canonical has a lot of control over the snap store, and lack of integration with distros beyond Ubuntu.
  There's a vague promise of "new stores" and better integration with other distros but Flatpak is a truly open technology that gives you the option to install apps from ANY source and other distros are collaborating to improve it.
- Many have issues with stability. Especially with firefox which comes installed via snap on ubuntu. Similarly compared to deb snaps versions occasionally have weird bugs. I personaaly had an issue with opening files properly using snap but worked fine on deb.
  Also its unnecessarily forced. Deb works great and apt is widely used as primary package manager. No need to maintain the system with another one in the mix.
  Its also repoted not to work well on otknr platforms like fedora or arch. Other package formats like AppImage, flatpak might be better in that regard though I havent used them.
- For one, packages aren't cryptographically verified after downloading them, as is done with apt.
  This is a massive security vulnerability.
  
  Verifying a snap package’s authenticity seems to suggest otherwise. What's the source for your claim?
- Digital sanity. I do not want any of my tools to constantly beg to be updated.
- Main reasons I see being raised a lot are Canonical's absolute control over the snap ecosystem and the dependency problem inside the snaps, meaning they often ship outdated versions of dependencies which might have known bugs or flaws.
  The fact that it is forced on users is mentioned by other people here already. Afaik this is not a thing yet on Ubuntu server, so maybe install that one + the GUI packages? Not an Ubuntu user myself, so this could be oversimplified.

Ubuntu was my first-ever training-wheels gateway to Linux. I started from 8.04 Hardy Heron, and it felt like such a counter-culture move back then and I wanted to be part of the 'cool' edgy goth kids that DGAF about the mainstream normies.
15 years later, I still daily-drive windows, but I have many linux boxes for various specialist use-cases, mainly for scripting or self-hosting services, and still have 22.04 server versions running here and there. But this will be my last version of Ubuntu, and the only reason its still there is because migrating them is going to be no fun.
The Ubuntu today feels like a completely different animal than when I started. My breaking point was the 'upgrade to pro' message on every apt run. I DON'T WANT TO SIGN UP FOR YET ANOTHER METERED ACCOUNT. I use Linux to escape all the mainstream commercialism and monetization once in a while when I'm up for it. Next thing I know, it starts popping up in Linux OS's and even terminals asking me to login with an account so that I can be monetized.
Don't get me wrong, I know people need to eat and companies need revenue streams to pay their staff. Linux was my occasional escape back to my engineering and tinkering roots, but corporatism is creeping in like what happens to all good things (eventually).
- Windows as daily driver?!? :(
  
  Yes indeed, it just works when I need it to. Just 10 minutes ago I regretted installing Arch as I had some trouble trying to get my WH1000XM4 to connect. I was able to figure it out eventually as I was missing a bunch of missing packages for bluetooth and bluetooth audio that for some reason archinstall decided wasn't part of the core packages. There was zero prompts from KDE as to why the pairing was failing and I had to figure out with some trial and error which ones were missing and which ones I needed. And after doing all that I still couldn't get LDAC to work.
  Seriously reflecting on my life choices right now, should have stuck to a distro with some sensible defaults when I just need shit to work. Of all the problems people have with M$, windows always just worked for me. Perhaps Linux and I just aren't fated to be together. I always come back a couple of times a year to try out the state of Linux and while it has gotten a whole lot better, its always these little gotchas that result in me telling myself "maybe next year will be the year of linux", which has been happening for the past ~15 years for me now.

Seems like Canonical wants to push snaps now really hard. I hope that Flathub soon implements its payment structure, before companies flock to the Canonical store.
- Payment? What for?
  
  For easily supporting developers of the apps.
  
  For buying or donating (maybe even subscriptions). Both open source and proprietary software. They're working on it.

Ubuntu being Ubloatu.

Yeah… For years I already suggested anything good but Ubuntu to those interested in trying Linux, but now I'm going to directly tell them not to touch it. Sure, you've got lots of online discussions from the past 20-ish years of people teaching each other how to install PPAs for up-to-date versions of programs or drivers and that's sweet. But how about a distro where that stuff is just available out of the box and one that doesn't force you to use snaps as if they didn't cause issues left and right?

They are mostly Mozilla members, not Ubuntu members, who are responsible for the PPA. Are you sure, that your complaints and grievances are directed to the right address? See here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MozillaTeam/Contacts
- Hello, member of Mozilla release engineering here. We have no association with that PPA and the contacts are not mozilla.com email addresses.

Thanks for the warning. I’ll keep my eyes open. Perhaps it’s time to start distro-hopping.
- It's been time since Ubuntu was selling user search data to Amazon, and adding ads to the terminal... It's a shit distro with an even worse company behind it.

I get that people don't like being forced, but otherwise I couldn't care less about Firefox snap vs deb. All problems I once had have been ironed out. On the contrary, I like sticking to the "recommended" path with more developer focus and hopefully higher stability. For my usecases I have zero problems with snap.
- For one, the snap version is 115 instead of 116, so it's reverting me to an older version, which makes firefox want to wipe my profile. Not ok. Two, I was purposely using the Mozillateam PPA to get non snap installations, and they up and changed that on us with no warning. Then there is the matter that firefox as a snap is slower. And finally, I can't add the Widevine for arm64 plugin to the snap.
  Snap for browsers is a terrible idea.
- Smart card support is still completely broken. I kinda need that to use Linux for my work PC.
- If it works for you, fine. I still have this bug to deal with which makes snaps completely unusable in our environment.
  Maybe I should try petitioning for us to at least use Linux Mint.
  
  Same for our student PCs - As soon as the setup includes network homes snap becomes completely unusable. Applications just crash on startup because snap doesn't allow them to access the user's home directory
- I also hate that anyone would side for snap based browser installation, and that any of you are upvoting it is horribly icky.
  
  Can you articulate why?
  
  I like my apps to be contained somehow. I don't like all the choices canonical made with snap, but I like containment.
  Your responses here tho, yeah. Icky.

Well fuck snaps. Been using ubuntu for over 15 years and finally starting to move elsewhere, begrudgingly. Finally have had enough after latest lts release.
- Come join us on NixOS, we have declarative state management and also chocolate chip cookies
  
  Well, no, you have to declare the chocolate chip cookies in your configuration.nix, then run update to make Nix cook them for you

You may need to move away from Ubuntu to an Ubuntu-based distro. Pop!_OS still packages firefox as a deb

@PseudoSpock add Linux Mint repository and install Firefox from there, as described here: https://askubuntu.com/questions/1386738/how-to-install-chromium-from-the-linux-mint-repositories-in-ubuntu
Or switch to Linux Mint entirely, like I did :ablobcatbongo:
- This is affecting my daily driver vm running on arm (m1), otherwise it would already be running Mint. :)
  
  @PseudoSpock too bad

Firefox snap on Ubuntu is still slow to start after all this time. The binary from Mozilla starts nearly instantly.

This may be caused by pinned versions or preferences not being setup correctly in your apt config, rather than a problem with the PPA. It could have been caused by the recent 117 update.
In /etc/apt/preferences.d/ you can create files to control which versions and releases are used for which packages. This is how linux mint prevents snap from getting in, (even though they package their own firefox with its own customizations). Setting up something like:
undefined

Package: snapd Pin: release a=* Pin-Priority: -10
and
undefined

Package: firefox Pin: release o=Ubuntu Pin-Priority: -10
should get it working better for any further upgrades

The last time I had to deal with Firefox-Snap on a fresh Ubuntu install, it kept crashing on launch. Grabbed a tarball and that justworks (TM). That was around a year ago. Hopefully the situation has gotten better.

What PPA was it? I'm using this one and it seems to be still native. http://downloads.sourceforge.net/project/ubuntuzilla/mozilla/apt
That said - I'm experimenting with NixOS to move to.
- I keep seeing people mentioning NixOS, what's so unique about it that people like?
  
  Biggest package repository, a very strange package manager that lets you reproduce exact environment for any package. But also takes a bunch of time to understand and you basically have to learn a whole new programming language to use it if you don't want to copy-paste examples.

They don’t work. I am on arm and need to add in widevine. Can’t from a snap or flatpak.
- I think you need to learn how to reply to a comment not to the entire thread, my man.
  
  Yeah, voyager and I are figuring each other out.

Question: Is this going to also apply to Linux Mint and other Ubuntu/Debian cousin distros?
- Linux Mint specifically excludes the snap store due to the many criticisms people have already mentioned here. Doc refers to version 20, but I believe it's still the same in the current version. Not sure about other ubuntu-based distros though.
  https://linuxmint-user-guide.readthedocs.io/en/latest/snap.html
- Worth mentioning that Mint has LMDE (Linux Mint - Debian Edition), a version of Mint based on Debian instead of Ubuntu as a fallback for if/when Canonical starts doing stupid shit
  
  The mint folks are gonna eye this whole development carefully. Personally I'd be more surprised if ten years from now Mint was still based on Ubuntu instead of Debian.
  
  Cool! Is there or will there be any sort of transformation package or script to easily convert an existing Mint installation to LMDE?
- Not Debian. But mint needs to patch this out manually

You could install the flatpak version...
- There isn't one for arm64. And even if there were, I couldn't make it use my widevine installation.

Have you had any dealings with the FSF? “Forcing users” is standard operating procedure.
All distros make choices for their users. In fact, what applications are available in what repositories via what methods is practically the defining feature of a distribution. That in itself is not what bugs me about Ubuntu. It is the choices they make that bug me. That is why I do not use Ubuntu.
- What's with FSF? If it's free software and SaaSS, there is no "forcing" by their words.

Same for Chrome
- :(

Already started my EndeavourOS vm last night. :)

I use Linux in all my machines, currently: LMDE, Debian, Arch, openSUSE Tumbleweed, Fedora and Linux Mint. Yeah, I just realized I stopped using Ubuntu a couple of years ago.

The Debian package has different lib version dependencies than Ubuntu has. :(

Thank you, but no. I have the pinning correct. The ppa has turned to the dark side.

I've been having no issues with the Firefox snap on Ubuntu 22.04lts since I upgraded last month.
- You haven't tried to run it in containers, have you?
  
  Why would I? I don't need containers for anything.
- Then you have a use case that doesn't hit the limits of it's implementation. I am both glad for you, in that it hasn't bit you, and sad for you, in that you have let yourself be sucked into the proprietary ubuntu app store, known as snap.
  
  Lol

Nothing stopping anyone from installing by any other means though. This is just Canonical forcing their official channels to make sure they are pushing security fixes as fast as possible to desktop users.
- Wouldn't it be faster to just use binaries directly from Mozilla?
  
  Not necessarily. If you're just a single user on a machine, and you don't have any profiles to locate and move to match Mozilla's binaries, it would be just as fast. Client-side updates would be a pain to manage though.

Hear me out, why not just use snap?
- Cuz the damn PWA and keepass extensions don't work.
  
  Sorry, but the keepassxc extension works flawlessly.
- First, it's a version behind, prompting Firefox to ask me to erase my existing profile. That's not going to do. Second, it's not able to have Widevine added to it, which is needed for video / screen sharing in Teams web client.
- Because it forces me to have a snap directory in my home dir which I otherwise keep very tidy. At least let me put it in .snap or something like any decent piece of software. The snap developers don't respect users at all.
- I've used it a few years ago, it might have gotten better but when I was trying to use it it was annoying as fuck, cross-application links that you would expect to open the browser or whatever other app just didn't seem to work right and that was kind of a big deal for me since I use Slack a lot.
  Also I'd imagine your disk usage would go through the roof with it.
  I just don't see the point in it tbh, what was wrong with Linux package management as it is?

I use snaps for Spotify and Firefox. I know that it's "forcing" something on users in an ecosystem where things should never be forced on you but as long as they work, I just don't want to fight them anymore.
- They've succeeded. They've worn you down.
  I swapped to pop and Debian.
  I refuse to have Google and Microsoft tactics used against me in the Linux world, so Ubuntu are out for me.
  
  I mean it's on a laptop that's plugged into my stereo and streams Spotify and my music collection. On my main system I don't use snaps but for that particular one I wanted kubuntu and Spotify and that was basically it. But I guess you are right about them wearing me down.

240 comments