2mo ago

'Dumbphones' Are Not Private

Whenever people ask about ways to make their smartphones more private or which is the most privacy-respecting phone to get, there's always a few people confidently asserting "all smartphones are spy tools, get a dumbphone with no apps if you want to be private". Which is ridiculous advice for a few reasons

Dumbphones usually run either proprietary operating systems or outdated forks of Android. They're almost never encrypted. They rarely get security updates. They're a lot more vulnerable than even a regular Android phone
With dumbphones, you're usually limited to regular phone calls or SMS/MMS messaging. These are ancient communication standards with zero built-in privacy. Your ISP can read any text message you send and view metadata logs of any phone calls you make. In lots of places (like Australia where I live) ISPs are actually required to keep logs of your messages and phone calls

With even a regular Android phone you at least have access to encrypted messaging apps like Signal or Session so your conversations aren't fair game for anyone who wants to read them. Of course there are better options. iOS (not perfect but better than most bloatware-filled Android devices) and a pixel with GrapheneOS (probably the best imo) are much better options; but virtually anything out there is going to be better for privacy than a dumbphone

Edit: Thanks everyone for giving your thoughts. Some really good points I hadn't thought much about

84 comments

You can make a smartphone (more) private, but of the box and loaded with standard apps (eg Google), its a privacy nightmare. So I get where they are coming from. Sure using SMS isn't private, but dropping all that app addiction is.
- It comes down to the hostile actor you are trying to defend against. If you are Jason Bourne and you have been burned by your agency so multiple nation-states are looking for you, then you have to go fully off-grid and live a quiet life without ever communicating with anyone in your prior life again. It doesn't matter if you are using Signal, or SMS, or even a dial-up BBS. If you are communicating with people that are also under heavy surveillance, you cannot hide.
  If you want to reduce your "digital footprint," then not using google/facebook/other social media is the most worthwhile thing you can possibly do. Your phone doesn't matter. Use iOS, never install any of the social apps, use Safari in incognito mode, and you'll never be tracekd across websites again.
  
  This. A dumbphone is private in the sense that it's not collecting and transmitting a whole lot of data to Facebook, Google, etc., which is what most people are concerned about in this community.
  If you also want encrypted communications, use something built for that purpose. But keep in mind, the other person will also have to have a compatible device, and probably isn't as concerned about maintaining hygiene.
  
  Use iOS
  Wat
  
  "Use Safari in Incognito mode." I remember when they said the same thing about Firefox.
- Switching from a smartphone to a dumbphone is usually not about increasing privacy in the first place.
  People tend to make the switch for mental health reasons, rather than privacy ones. When your phone goes back to being a direct communication tool rather than a passtime, you tend to realize just how much time you spend during a day doing basically nothing.
  
  I 100% agree, but to be fair, in some jobs there really isn't much to do. Lol.

It's not about having a device that's secure, it's about having a device that you use less, to the point that it's not much of an attack surface for surveillance capitalism or (possibly) hostile governments.
It's much harder to profile someone if they aren't fed a steady stream of what you say and what you click upon.

I would argue that phone that a phone that runs Android is not a dumb phone. Not having a Google account logged into your phone is a huge step towards privacy.
See:
Mudita Kompakt
Punkt MP02
etc.
Also don't fall into the trap that privacy is a binary issue. There's a massive spectrum.
- Yes, I've only ever seen the term dumbphone used to mean a phone that's just a phone, not a computer. No OS, software, internet, etc.

With dumbphones, you’re usually limited to regular phone calls or SMS/MMS messaging.
That's kind of the point.
Sure, you can't do much with them, but by that very fact you also won't have nearly as much data to be spied on.
Likewise, you can do much more with a smartphone, but that comes with a much higher surface of attack, and you also have to work a lot harder to keep all the data away from spying.
- SMS/MMS and the PSTN are completely compromised by multiple governments. Not saying that makes smartphones any better, just be aware.
  
  Yes, not so difficult to spy phone calls and SMS, but it's way less risky for privacy and security as in Smartphones, full of sensitive data on an OS and tons of apps which logs and spy on you, spreading the information not only to the ISP and govs, but also to private advertising companies and others, which is way worse. Phone lines are way less dangerous for privacy and security as the Internet, log data stored by the ISP are deleted after an max. of three month, data on the internet are forever and can't be deleted, because they are spreeded everywhere.
  At least in my case, I don't use my Smartphone for other things as for calls, I don't use any messenger apps nor storing sensitive data on it, desconected GPS and localisation apps. For me smartphones as such are spyware by definition, more if the include AI like they are doing currently.

I think you're conflating security with privacy. Not that they are unrelated, but something can be e.g. unencrypted but lack telemetry.
Not that dumbphones are inherently private, but I don't think they're less private either. They're just what you use if you have no need for all the smartphone functions.
- Idk, being locked in to using only communication protocols that are known to be roughly wide open seems like kind of a privacy non-starter, right? Sort of fails the attempt before you even start, no?
  Edit: a wiser person than me reads the rest of the thread before a comment like the above, but I'm not them sadly. (AKA, plenty of good points made by others)
  
  I suppose that begs the question of whether or not privacy (as used by this community) inherently means private in the colloquial sense, like the way a diary is private. Because to me, a e.g. public static website with no kind of profiling of its users is privacy-respecting, but obviously not private in the colloquial sense—it's a public resource.
  I do use SMS sometimes and I use it strictly for things that I'm happy to be basically public. Same for using other protocols like unencrypted email.
  A stock smartphone is also locked in to mandatory telemetry, like a stock dumbphone. The practical difference is that there's a much smaller community for installing custom FOSS OSes onto dumbphones compared to smartphones.

As others have mentioned, this is a matter of threat model. To be realistic, a sufficiently determined government will always be able to access your communications, but companies like Facebook and Google can only access them if you give it to them willingly. On the other hand, if other people you communicate with do this by themselves, then you've gone through all that effort for nothing. It's also worth pointing out that it cannot be proven that a regular phone does not have corporate spyware installed, so this may be another way your information could leak to companies.
That said, it is pretty insulting that tech companies have decided that they're simply entitled to everyone's private communication data. That for me is probably the biggest motivator in trying to avoid their services as much as possible.
- a sufficiently determined government will always be able to access your communications
  If you use encrypted messages and both people using the messages have a phone with disk encryption then there is literally no way for a government to gain access to your messages. That is assuming the government isn't going to torture you.

You are conflating privacy and security. They're not unrelated, but generally speaking while a dumphone may be less secure than a smartphone, it's also certainly more private.
- How can you have a private phone with less security?
  Edit: Certainly without security you cannot have true privacy
  
  It is simple.
  It produces significantly less data. It doesn't have all the apps you are being tracked by reporting on your every move.
  It doesn't have faceid, and probably has a lot of exploits (less security), but the data it holds isn't worth securing and it doesn't provide a non-stop datamine (more privacy).
  Basically, instead of having a large safe filled with gold, you have a duffel-bag with your old gym clothes. You don't need security for old gym clothes.

If you're willing to live with a dumb phone, you're willing to live with a Linux phone (Or an open ROM without Google apps). AFAIK they can call and text just fine without installing anything else so any Linux apps you like are just a bonus.
- Good point. Linux phones, even in their current state, might be a good middle ground for people with low needs.
  Although there's two things I'd mostly be worried about.
  Battery life. Smartphones, including Linux ones, aren't exactly known for amazing battery life. A dumb phone would likely last several times longer on a single charge.
  Physical durability. Even after all those years of structural improvements, smartphones remain fairly fragile. Usually I use high durability cases with my smartphones (ideally Otterbox Defender), though I don't think anything similar is even available for any Linux phones. And of course, we all know dumb phones are generally durable enough.
  
  I remember the need to reload my old Nokia brick sometimes and that it had a better reception strengh than my current smartphone, apart of the bulletproof finish.

I can't speak for everyone, but if I'm using a dumb phone, I'm not going to be doing any of the things that I'm worried about them hearing.
If ICE grabs my phone right now and beats me until I lock it. They're going to be looking through my lemmy history.
I'm not going to hold a long political dissertation over SMS or during a phone call.
What I really want to at this point is a pager, a cellular Wi-Fi access point, and an 8" tablet that can run Linux and sip power so I can just pretend I don't have a device.
- What I really want to at this point is a pager, a cellular Wi-Fi access point, and an 8" tablet that can run Linux and sip power so I can just pretend I don’t have a device.
  This is basically what I was thinking. Where can I find a fully functioning 8" Linux Tablet? I feel like the rest of it is easy peasy.
  Edit: In my head, I am imagining a steam deck but with the side controller bits snapped off. Someone pls make this. lol
  
  Okay, it's no steam deck, but the GPD-4 6xxx model looks like it supports Linux reasonably well.
  https://gpdstore.net/blog/gpd-pocket-4-review/
  https://github.com/aarron-lee/gpd-win-tricks?tab=readme-ov-file#disable-fp-sensor-6800u-untested-on-newer-win-4-models
  It's an 8.8 inch 180 degree touchscreen and it has a keyboard built in.
  It's a pricey sausage, but not more expensive than my flagship phone.
  
  I keep hoping the Halium project will pick up support for some small tablet, but those are almost all bootloader-locked. I don't love Halium, but anything is better than what we have, I could deal with some UBPorts.
  I even looked at DIY. There's no lack of 7" touchscreens, but Pi's are apparently bad on power. There are a couple of mini clone boards that might work, but they all have tradeoffs and red flags.
  
  Pine64 has something I think. I don't know if it's any good though.

I guess the idea is that you wont be able to do a lon with a dumbphone, so it's basically a paperweight that sometimes receives calls and with too much luck, an SMS. You have a tool for emergencies or specific events, but you don't have your life on it, so you keep most of your privacy from ever reaching it. That's my take, at least.

I always thought people used the term "dumbphone" to refer to old-fashioned devices that are just a phone and don't run any OS.
- even all old Nokias and flipphones and the like have an OS they're just in house developed proprietary embedded software/firmware not open sourceish like android
  its how almost any sufficiently complicated device that uses PCBs works even modern washing machines and such run atleast what it basically a firmware os
- Landlines, you mean? I sometimes forget they still exist.
  
  Even a wireless handset landline or a deskphone with functions such as an address book and call history would have a basic firmware OS, but something like rotary phone wouldn't
  
  Even a lot of offices have moved to VoIP.
- How do you think they worked? All cells always had an OS.

GrapheneOS or nothing. We have to support them whenever we can more than ever. The battle against mass surveillance will become increasingly difficult. Many countries are heading towards neo-fascism and will use all state power to end privacy at all costs
- Yes but you also have to get your phone from a hardware manufacturer who you trust, so not google or Samsung or huawei or… etc.
  Fair phone maybe?
  
  Fair phone maybe?
  Outdated HW and doesn't have graphene support.

Exactly, taking away tools which enable you to enhance your digital privacy, or the ability to use such tools, is fundamentally a flawed way to enhance your privacy in the long term.
Same for security with rooting, and it's the same reason why the argument that "rooting makes your phone less secure" is a fundamentally flawed argument.
- Yes! I hate that companies are trying to make people think thar rooting=unsafe. Then make it work safely. Root user is safe on Linux, then why it isn't on phone?
  That's just boils down to user not giving root access to every app.
  
  Because they don't know what could potentially be running with root access and they'd rather block everything they don't know.
  Earlier this year my accountant asked me to install an app on my phone to give them access to some banking details and that app would not open the login screen without the gboard keyboard enabled, because they considered custom keyboard apps = bad. It also would not let me use password managers, so I was forced to put my banking details beyond a weaker password than any of my online accounts for random sites.
  
  Exactly!
  Ultimately rooting empowers users with control, and many company profit from users not having control, like Netflix, like Google with their ads, etc., so they love to make people think rooting is somehow unsafe lol

Your ISP can read any text message you send and view metadata logs of any phone calls you make. In lots of places (like Australia where I live) ISPs are actually required to keep logs of your messages and phone calls
Why would my Internet Service Provider have anything whatsoever to do with my dumb phone?
Yes, texts and calls aren't hidden from your mobile phone provider, they never were. I agree it's not great, and the government is likely spying on you as they have been for decades.
But alas, I don't see a solution without using a non dumb phone and encrypted apps, which will require the internet and at that point you've not got a dumb phone any more.
My Nokia 3310 still works great. Sure, the government could spy on me, but I don't discuss anything sensitive over the phone (traditionally one doesn't, for this very reason, wiretaps and the like). It's a tool for casually staying in touch and arranging to meet up ^_
- Your cellular provider is an ISP.
  
  No not necessarily. And people don't call there mobile provider their ISP

From my limited research it looks as though the Punkt mp02 is the best bet for a private dumbphone. It does use a propriety OS but at least it supports Signal.
- Pretty sure the Punkt is my next phone and a Raspberry Pi 500+ is my next desktop.
  Take me back to the start of the millennium. I'm tired of this shit.

Linux Phones are a thing… 🥺
- Yes, they are. There's a system called Ubuntu Touch, and there are a few others that I'm not as well aware of.

I figured that the point of using a dumb phone would be that there hopefully wouldn't be meaningful accounts, information, and communication to really get at. Regular calls and SMS were already fair game, and there is basically nothing else on there. Nothing for evil megacorps to siphon up, no social media, not much of anything.

Nice thing is, usually the dumb phones have removable batteries. So just remove the battery when you're not using it. Problem solved.

If you have to connect to an intermediary to make a call, you can be heard and traced. GPRS is only marginally better if you and the one you call are on the same uncommon frequency

Yes, sim calls and sms are not private, both on dumb and smart phones. They also connect to cell towers so your location might be found. Anyway, I think the hardware and software of a smartphone is more capable of surveillance you than a dumbphone. The only realistic way is to leave the phone home and keep a paper list of your contacts at you. And call them from a stranger if you need to. I did this and the biggest inconvenience is that I can't take pictures or videos (I might buy a camera, I don't know if they have location system incorporated).

And your keystrokes are logged on phones where you use Signal...
Dumbphones are more private. Privacy is on a scale, and you have less apps and systems that track you and profile you on a dumbphone.
Do you want true privacy? Don't use a phone...
- Yup, no phone is the way to go. Obviously not practical 100% of the time in the modern day, but if you're ever doing something you don't want linked to you, leave the phone at home.

84 comments