1y ago

Guns, Republicans and "manliness": We all suffer from the right's mental health crisis

www.salon.com Guns, Republicans and "manliness": We all suffer from the right's mental health crisis

Republican men seem massively troubled about their masculinity — and that's literally causing death and suffering

165 comments

Men who work to limit women's autonomy over their own bodies, or for that matter conservative women who punch down to bolster their fragile status have serious issues to work on and should quit afflicting them on the rest of us.
Amen

One thing I've learned is that if you have to announce something about yourself, and announce it loudly and repeatedly, it's very much not true.
- I've been told drinking coffee with cream or sugar isn't manly which I find funny, like who cares? We all have taste buds dude. IMO a "real" man isn't concerned about what others think, he is comfortable being himself.
  
  I drink black coffee because I have a problem. Not because I’m trying to get +1 to my role in society
  Imagine being so sensitive a little bit of lightness in your coffee is enough of a devaluation to your manhood to make it a thing 😫
  
  I fill a glass of International Delight Caramel Macchiato and add dark roast coffee as needed to thin it out. 1 to 1 1/2 ounces of coffee is the sweet spot.
  
  God this is like the whole "cocktails are girly, real men drink beers". I don't care, give me a Sex on the Beach or a rum and coke. Or a good beer. Life is way too short to drink something called bitter.
  "It's literally called bitter!"
  
  Not for manlyness reasons, but I would recommend not using creamer. The sugar content is so freaking high. Just add cream (milk or milk alternative) and sugar to taste. It'll be healthier. Ideally though, if you don't like coffee, find another way to get your caffeine fix. Get some caffeine pills or some powder that you can add to juice in the morning, which would be healthier to consume (though also high in sugar, and be careful what kind of juice, some are largely HFCS).
- A guy who used to cut my hair was rumored to be a hitman for the mafia. Nice guy. Really mild mannered. Last person who you would ever suspect of killing people.
  I actually believe the rumor because an actual hitman will make sure that he's the last person that you would ever suspect.
- I'm not sure about that. You may just be in an oppressive environment, like with trans people and their pronouns.
  
  Hypermasculinity’s “oppressors” include flowers, rainbows, other people choosing to wear dresses, a functioning government, and welfare.
  Trans folks oppressors are the hypermasculine.
- And the projections. The constant insults are ones they practice in the mirror because that's the person it applies to the most

"manliness"
In this context, the definition is being a chronic asshole and getting away with it.

Seems to be a big deal when you start talking guns and mental health, but with all the fixations on "mass shootings", they lose this little stat:
https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/04/26/what-the-data-says-about-gun-deaths-in-the-u-s/
"In 2021, the most recent year for which complete data is available, 48,830 people died from gun-related injuries in the U.S., according to the CDC. That figure includes gun murders and gun suicides, along with three less common types of gun-related deaths tracked by the CDC: those that were accidental, those that involved law enforcement and those whose circumstances could not be determined."
54% of those deaths were suicides. 26,368.
(43% murder, 3% "other", accidents, etc.)
Also in 2021, 38,358 men committed suicide compared to 9,825 women.
https://www.cdc.gov/suicide/suicide-data-statistics.html
3.9:1, if almost 4x more women than men were dying for any reason, it would be a national crisis. "Something would have to be done!"
Mental health for men? Silence.
- I hear what you are saying but I wouldn’t even say that line about if it were women it’d be a national crisis. Time has shown again and again that society will gladly throw away a group of people without needing to devalue your words with a statement like that.
  Anyway there’s a lot of things to discuss around this.
  We can dive into the societal role of men with being encouraged to bottle up because “grown men don’t cry” and toxic masculinity.
  We can talk about rates of gun ownership between genders that is a big factor in suicide risk.
  We can unpack the issue with people not having the money for mental health resources. Which can be solved through general wage increases or through the state.
  The point is to say that instead of using a crisis to step another group of people we should be approaching these things from a point of intersectionality.
  Edit: Just to be on topic I am completely for restrictions on guns as a easier means to dealing with shootings.
  The crazy people shouting “dont take my guns” while also touting the line of “it’s a mental health isssue” without being open to addressing that problem gets me so worked up.
- 54% of those deaths were suicides. 26,368.
  Mental health for men? Silence.
  There are people who advocate for "men's rights" things, but they're mostly conservatives, and they leave out the horrifying statistics about gun ownership among men because they're also in the pocket of the gun lobby.
  It's a taboo subject even amongst family members of those affected to talk about the role of firearms in suicide.
  The reality is that gun ownership can turn a bad, lonely night into a person's last one by pure virtue of the fact that it's so readily available, and so often deadly.
  
  If your bad, lonely night is that bad and lonely, you probably were unstable to begin with.
  I wonder how many of those gun suicides were actually impulsive, and how many were premeditated.
- People aren't silent about men successfully committing suicide at a higher rate to women. You hear about it all the time. However, it isn't an issue about men being overlooked, like you imply. Women attempt suicide at a higher rate. Why didn't you discuss that? Is it being ignored?
  The fact of the matter is suicide by firearm is the worst offender. Attempted suicide needs to be prevented for everyone equally, but firearm ownership should be more restricted, and there should also be tools out there to get your firearms away from you temporarily if you're feeling suicidal or depressed. Men are more likely to own firearms, which is the issue that needs addressing to fix the disparity, not men being ignored.
  
  Then any old asshole could just lie and say their neighbor or family member or spouse is suicidal, and disarm them. Abusers absolutely will exploit that to subjugate their victims.
  And it's not really moral to say those men shouldn't be allowed to kill themselves if they want anyway. Do people have self-ownership or not? Yes or no?
  
  Real question here. I don't know how the number of attempts is calculated. If a single person attempts unsuccessfully 3 times, then is that recorded as 3 separate attempts? Or is this recording the number of unique people who have attempted suicide any number of times?
  If it's the former then it may be an indicator that women prefer methods of suicide that are less likely to succeed, but it is much harder to tell how many individual women actually attempt suicide compared to men.
  Also, if a person is suffering enough that they're seriously contemplating suicide, is taking that option away from them really the right thing to do? There's also the issue of any such system being abused. It's easy to imagine law enforcement using this as a way to disarm groups and individuals for political reasons.
- it would be a national crisis. "Something would have to be done!"
  People are already saying something has to be done because it is a national crisis. Toxic gun culture prevents any serious actions
  
  Comprehensive mental health care for all is not being blocked by gun culture, it's being blocked by the typical Republican calls of "SOCIALISM!!"
  
  The right has been pretty open about what kind of America they want to live in and what they're willing to do to get there. We should all believe them and take them seriously, because they are fucking serious.
  Fascist militias are popping up left and right, and the only gun control measures that pass end up restricting the rights of citizens in blue states while red states continue expanding their own. Unless you can magically disarm the entire nation simultaneously that cat is out of the bag.
  I'm optimistic about the future and hold no deluded fantasies of armed conflict, but there may come a time where you'll wish you had access to normal capacity magazines and non-nerfed rifles. Jon Stewart is not going to come rescue you when they have you on your knees in front of a ditch.
  Disarming the working class under the current hyper-capitalist regime doesn't really work in our favor either, and in most instances gun control is proven to be a political loser that equals to nothing more than a waste of time/effort and only serves to cripple a campaign.
- You were doing so well until you tried the "People care so much more about women's health! Pity me!" line.
  Strange how Viagra is required to be covered by all insurance but birth control isn't. Whose priorities are privileged there?
  
  It's not about pitying me, it's about pitying the state of men in general, where, if the genders were reversed, it would be considered a national crisis.
  For example:
  https://universitybusiness.com/men-are-falling-behind-in-higher-ed-and-it-may-not-be-letting-up/
  Key stats:
  "Women became the majority demographic to attend college decades ago, and today, they make up almost 60% of U.S. college undergraduates."
  (between 2017 and 2022) "male enrollment at 4-year public institutions has dropped nearly 6% more than women, according to the National Student Clearinghouse Research Center. Among all student demographics in this sector, white men experienced the sharpest decline in enrollment, falling nearly 20%."
  "The rate at which men are graduating from 4-year institutions is 6% less than that of women, according to the National Center for Education Statistics."
  "The Class of 2023 reported that while 68% of young men want to go to college, only 57% expect to actually attend. On the other hand, 83% of young women want to go to college, and 77% expect to go."
  Or...
  https://www.mibluesperspectives.com/stories/health-and-wellness/male-mortality-why-men-die-earlier-than-women
  "In 2021, the average life expectancy was 73.2 years for men and 79.1 years for women."
- Mental health is not considered enough in general. What makes you think it is worth for men?
- So close...

It's so irritating that left-of-center publications always go all-in on anti-gun sentiment, while believing that a police state is going to save people. News flash: it won't. Cops don't care about you and have no responsibility to do anything to help you, or to prevent violence against you. Cops are often the ones involved in protecting the people on the right that use violence to suppress people on the left.
For fucks sake, we literally saw a full year of violence by police against peaceful BLM protestors that just want to stop extrajudicial police killings; we caw cops turn protests into riots, and then use the riots as their excuse for using more violence.
I reject their authoritarian leanings, in the same way that I reject the authoritarian bullshit from Republicans.
- Your misunderstanding is thinking everyone left of center wants to round up all the guns, ripping them from the hands of anyone who wont give them willingly. Anyone who has thought about it knows we cant get rid of every last gun and it would be a tireless effort, like the war on drugs, to try.
  No, I only ask we do a better job at regulating these weapons. It is no small task and it will always come down to how well a job our local communities are doing. The real issue is just as the article states, people aren't getting the social services they need and are being driven into poverty by an oppressive work culture. There is no way any poor community can deal with these issues with everything else that's going on while having zero resources.
  
  The real question is what solutions would actually do something about it, most proposed are innefectual or ripe for abuse. Very seldom is one actually meaningful and not too dangerous. Frankly, the only one I can think of would be making private sale go through NICs, but it could be implimented better than all the proposed plans I've seen so far in a way that makes both people upset and happy at the same time (which is what a compromise is, let's be real.) Frankly I also think the improved social services would have more to offer us in regards to this problem anyway. Any other laws I've heard proposed are either entirely meaningless (like assault weapons bans, reloading mags is trivial) or way too easily abused (like mental health checks, which could [would] be weaponized against the trans community in a heartbeat).
  
  Well, point of fact, the article in question here leads off with a link to a proposed rewrite of the 2nd amendment to abolish the right to private gun ownership.
  
  I'm not sure it would be a tireless effort:
  Step 1: offer major tax incentives for turning in your gun. Turning in a $500 handgun? $2000 tax write off. Something like that.
  Step 2: I believe we have serial numbers in all guns right? Could we then charge a license fee for their ownership? Own a $500 handgun? Fun ownership costs police more money to do their jobs. Pay a yearly $50 fee to keep your gun.
  Step 2b: Along with that fee, before you can own a gun you must attend an extensive class on the use, safety, and safe storage of your gun. Understand if your gun is used by another, you bear a portion of blame if it is used improperly.
  Step 2c: After initial training, must attend annual (or maybe biannual) refresher. These can be fun. A get together with other gun enthusiasts and the opportunity to shoot at a range together. But a reiteration of safety.
  Even if that didn't get rid of all guns, the remaining ones would be much better taken care of. I think Switzerland has a high rate of gun ownership but doesn't seem to have America's issue with them. I think the difference is training before they get their guns.
  
  Your misunderstanding is thinking everyone left of center wants to round up all the guns, ripping them from the hands of anyone who wont give them willingly.
  Everyone? No. But it's a primary goal of the Democratic party. "No one wants to take your guns" rungs super-fucking-hollow when you have states actively banning firearms.
  I would rather change the social circumstances than worry about regulating tools. When you fix the underlying systemic problems--many of which are an intended side effect of capitalism, e.g. poverty--then you don't see the same kind of violent outbursts. Racism, poverty, misogyny - these are all things that result in violence among many other negative social consequences. Violence is just the most obvious one.
- So you want people to arm themselves to keep the most well equipped police force in the world in check? I'll wait for you to see the flaw in your argument...
  
  Oh, I'm in favor of removing cops toys too. And crushing police unions, and removing qualified immunity.
  But it turns out that yeah, when you have large groups of heavily armed citizens, that cops do, in fact, dial back their violence.
  
  The most well equipped place force in the world seems to be scared of school shooters. They may have equipment but they have no real training outside of "everyone wants to kill you, here's how you can get away with killing them"

We need to start reminding them that their beloved Founding Fathers wore makeup, powdered wigs, frilly blouses and tights.
- Yeah but that was for showing off wealth. You had to make sure the poor people knew you were their better.

I run a bakery and helped a lady with a cake for her husband. She was constantly asking me if these were masculine enough colors and designs lol. I tricked them with trans pride colors. Worrying about your masculinity is one of the least masculine things you can do.
- Well, hopefully you didn't get her beaten by an abusive spouse.
- I have never eaten a cake that had "masculine features and designs"
  
  How about a cake in the shape of a bicep, kind of like this flyer?

I know this goes a bit off from the article (I skimmed). But I think a lot of this toxic masculinity comes from decades of media on what a American man should be.
They need to be strong, independent, smart (sometimes), ingenious, a natural leader, angry at the "system", can shoot any gun with perfection, solve most all problems with a gun or a fist fight, never show any type of remorse or trauma from their violent "solutions", muscular, always get the girl, only drink brown liquors or beer, never bend, never negotiate, always win, and can walk away from an explosion without flinching.
This shit has been around since the 1940's and it still in use today. It used to be the Lone Ranger, Superman, batman. Then it was the strong independent cowboy taking on the "savages", The 70's it was Charles Bronson and Clint Eastwood taking on the Gangs of the inner cities. The 80's and 90's were Rambo and terminator, the 2000's with Mission Impossible, Jason Borne, John Wick. And James Bond all through out. Just to name a few
Not to take away from the entertainment of these movies and characters but I see lot's of men that take these fictional characters and try to make it their personality. But reality doesn't work that way. They can't go shoot your problems away. Hot women just don't fall leg spread for these guys (which makes them angrier). AND some men don't want to be this unrealistic version of an American man. Which for some reason pisses off those men that do want it....
- Agreed. However, something has to be said for the fact that a lot of American society and economy has shifted value away from "dangerous" or otherwise physically demanding labor (e.g. coal mining, farm field work before automation) towards jobs that don't depend on how much muscle mass you have or other expressions of sex hormones. That value system was encoded into cultural norms and media, which, without the corresponding environment, just became a caricature.
  The problem of focusing too much on the culture is that we miss what shaped it in the first place: a need to feel valued. If men aren't valued for their physique (or, to be frank, their biological expendability), then what's their value? The Left was too afraid of ruining their Feminist credibility to offer any serious solutions. Meanwhile, the Right leaned in to that caricature, and offered a solution full of misogyny and arrogance. When presented a choice between an awful solution and no solution, it's no wonder so many men fell prey to toxicity.
  We need more non-toxic masculinity.
  
  I don't get this idea of having to have the state or society fulfill the need to be valued at all. Can you please explain further what you mean by that?
  
  There is toxic people, of both genders, there is nothing inherently toxic to being a man, or a woman

Being manly is vital to the right wing.

And also their tendency to unleash face-eating leopards.

In my humble opinion all these fellas just seem to be running around like a beheaded chicken in search for the slightest amount self worth. Instead they started yearning for surrogates like wealth, power, status and what not.
The problem with these surrogates is that you cannot ever get enough of it. It'll never fill the gaping hole which is their sense of self.

IMO, the focus should be on being a good person and not on conforming to unrealistic gender stereotypes. One's gender presentation (or lack) is enhanced by universal positive attributes like honesty, confidence, commitment, charity, etc. This is not an original idea, but thought it worth saying.
- Well said. We all spend a lot of time criticizing, and not enough time building up. Here are a few more (rather heavily paraphrased) ways to be a good person that I feel strongly about:
  Admire people who recognize their insufficiency, mourn, show humility, seek justice, are merciful, have a pure heart, work for peace, or are oppressed for doing the right thing.
  Understand you're incapable of perfection, and so is everybody else.
  If you're angry with someone, call them an idiot, or curse them, beware of the consequences.
  Settle conflict with others quickly before it escalates.
  Be faithful to all your vows in both thought and action.
  Resist the urge for vengeance; flip the script by going above and beyond for those who take advantage of you.
  Give to those who ask for help or want to borrow what you have.
  Stand out from the crowd by showing kindness and compassion to those who hate you.

America, not even once.

Can we stop posting idiotic Salon.com articles Jesus fucking Christ liberal circle jerking at its finest. The same people that salivate over this nonsense will unironically state that faux news is white supremacists fascist racist literally Hitler propaganda (it's just right wing propaganda chuds).

Ugh. In these comments I see we've evolved from "men should man up and stop whining" to "men should stop manning up and theoretically start whining, but in practice still stop whining actually."
It's not their attitudes causing massive increases in suicides and deaths of despair, you fools. It's material conditions. And it's not caused by the right wing trolls who might try to take advantage. shoeonhead got it right imo
Edit:
I just read the article and it's one of the stupidest and most beligerently ideological things I've ever read.
- Masculinity above logic is NOT the move
  Be "masculine, be "feminine," nobody gives a fuck.
  Go to a therapist if you're struggling with your mental health.
  Stop bringing your toxic-masculinity as an excuse to buy guns and hate minorities.
  
  Go to a therapist if you're struggling with your mental health
  Easy to say. Difficult to do. Even among Americans who have health insurance, access to mental healthcare is abysmal.
  
  The enormous numbers of people killing themselves are not necessarily buying guns or hating minorities. And therapy can only respond to pre-exisitng problems. If there are society-wide problems creating terrible living conditions, we need a society-wide prevention scheme.
  Or you can spew vile hatred and pretend it's because you're against hatred.

Why is both Reddit and lemmy politics both just filled with leftist propaganda?
Real question, it's impossible to see both content as in these places it's just "trump bad, Biden god" well sorry, both are horrible people I want to see both sides.
- Notice how this article does not mention Biden?
  It's because you very rarely see people praising Biden as most of the left does not particularly like him, let alone worship him like the right does with Donnie Dipshit.
  So essentially, you aren't mad at news that says "Trump bad, Biden good"; you're just mad at any news that simply says "Trump bad" and cant seem to fathom why there's not an equal number of articles saying Biden bad.
  Well it's because one side is doing way more awful shit way more often.
  
  Nah. One side is doing awful shit out of power steered by naivete, and the other side is doing awful shit out of naivete steered by power. Neither are particularly bad, really, it's just that they're both painfully stupid, and are steering the species towards death by pampering or death by power mongering.
  
  I don't care about this article, I'm talking in general of this sub and reddits defaults.
  Biden fucks up, it isn't posted yet people bring up trump's fuck ups all the time. Surely the focus would be on the current standing president and how he acts and what he does no?
  I knew I would get downvotes for asking this simple question, can't have people not on the far left thinking..
  Well it's because one side is doing way more awful shit way more often.
  I'd love to see the drugs found at the white house mentioned on these types of subs. Or the numerous times Biden has slipped up in talking like saying "god save the queen" for example, if trump did it, even now. It would be everywhere
- Lol BOTH SIDES
  
  Yes, sorry if that is seen as propaganda if anything is ever posted that could show the democrats/liberals in a bad light
- Why is both Reddit and lemmy politics both just filled with leftist propaganda?
  Sorry, not every website can be as good as TruthSocial.
  
  Is truth social equal and not biased?

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