Charlie Kirk shot and killed while speaking at Utah college
Charlie Kirk shot and killed while speaking at Utah college
Charlie Kirk confirmed dead.

Charlie Kirk shot and killed while speaking at Utah college
Charlie Kirk confirmed dead.
Hollow Point USA
Are there hollow point rifle rounds?
Yes
Yes
Naw, looked more like a jacketed round.
Is there anyone even left of substance at turning point?
I'm sure his neck turned hollow at one point
There was never any substance at turning point.
It's honestly been a while since a breaking news story put a massive grin on my face
After the attempt on Trump, I thought these guys had force fields around them. One shot, 200 yards, and a great day.
How? Why? This could have incredibly dangerous consequences. Didn't Trump send the national guard after a dodge employee was beaten up? Only time how he will exploit this situation for further gaining power.
Seriously, I'm shocked how nonchalant people are reacting. Further escalation of political violence is extremely dangerous for the left at the moment and could be extremely lucrative for the Trump regime, which is constantly testing the water on how far they can go in terms of seizing power.
Don't forget, it was also an assassination that was the trigger for the Kristallnacht. You hopefully are not quite at that stage, but it is events like this that moves you closer..
sometimes you like seeing turds get flushed even though your anus is sore
Yes, I agree, but those fears took a bit to set in. Whereas my initial reaction was to "person who supports your extermination is no longer"
If it wasn't this it was going to be something else. At least this definitely solved a problem permanently.
A repeat of something like the doge employee assult could fix some issues, but probably only temporarily and would ultimately have the same end result.
If there's anything to learn from Kristallnacht is that there was never going to be enough capitulation and appeasement that would've prevented it and that appeasement ultimately works to multiply the harms done.
Schadenfreude moment.
Nope. You don't get schadenfreude when you are defending yourself from someone determined to kill you, your family, and everyone who isn't openly nazi.
More "Whew, that nazi almost killed Indiana Jones before tripping and getting run over by a tank!" and Less "I'm glad you got hurt by the door you refuse to fix."
Calibrate your enthusiasm.
These guys think they can talk all day about how they are going to make other's lives worse, often those with lesser means, and they think they should enjoy safety themselves at all times. This while caring so little for others who are victims of gun violence, offering up weak thoughts and prayers and no action. Well, today he got to live the life he always wanted, he just wanted it for others.
He was literally in the middle of defending his stance on why trans people are bad, and dodging questions on gun violence, when this happened. Bizarre.
Couldn't have happened to a nicer dude
I was curious what the topic of his speech was but I didn't want to watch the video. What was he talking about?
Look at some of the bastards talking about him. I'm sure inside they're fucking scared, trying to guess how much they'll have to spend for security and start having coffee with Erik Prince or some thuggery.
"America has lost one of its greatest champions," White House Deputy Chief of Staff Stephen Miller wrote on X. "All of us must now dedicate ourselves to defeating the evil that stole Charlie from this world."
Laura Loomer, a MAGA loyalist who has Trump's ear, called for "cracking down on the Left with the full force of the government. Every single Left wing group that funds violent protests needs to be shut down and prosecuted. No mercy."
Elon Musk, the X platform’s billionaire owner, was even more blunt. “The Left is the party of murder,” he wrote.
Jesus fucking Christ, these people are capable massive cognitive dissonance. It's not surprising as it's right out of the fascist playbook.
Why the fuck is Donald Trump the one announcing his death?
Does that stink of this being a false flag and Kirk was chosen as an expendable to anyone else??
I am not at all convinced the shooter was a leftist or liberal.
It was a truly wildly impressive shot. One single shot taken over 200 yards away through a very limited angle that made an instant-kill hit, and no suspect in custody? Hmm...
It is extremely convenient that this happened immediately after the publication of the Epstein birthday book.
Yeah I'd say it was convenient if there wasn't a major Trump scandal each week in the past ten years at least.
Like Trump needs distraction. He could breathe slightly funny or his hands could turn a different shade of purple and the news circus would move on from the birthday book tomorrow, which doesn't even confirm anything we didn't already know.
Killer was well-prepared and a good shot, unlike the weirdo who tried to take out Trump. The only unusual thing is that people who have the mental acumen to actually pull something like this off and not get caught immediately tend to be mentally stable enough not to attempt something like that.
But times are a-changing and political violence in the US is going to get a lot worse before it gets better. People forgot that the Rule of Law and Social Contract were meant not just as ways to prevent conservatives from implementing ethnic/religious fundamentalism, but also to prevent this exact kind of thing happening. Trump is at the helm of a government he seemingly distrusts, whose own rules he constantly breaks or ignores, whose institutions he actively sabotages, whose fundamental principles he spits on. As a consequence trust in all three branches of government is crumbling, which inevitably legitimizes political violence as a last resort vector of change.
200 yards is a very novice distance with a rifle.
There’s no way they would shut down a propaganda powerhouse like that. It’s tempting to go down the conspiracy rabbit hole, but the vast majority of times it’s really the simple explanations that count.
It honestly could be as simple as “a school shooting victim’s relative wants revenge against the speaker who ridiculed their tragedy.”
Occam's Razor.
The USA probably has a million (literally) gun owners capable of making that shot.
Ain't no solidarity like fascist solidarity.
I wouldn't be surprised if it was someone just more right wing than him who took issue with "softer" stances, like not murdering trans people in the streets and only criminalising them.
Or the Whitehouse kept an open line with the hospital and Trump lacks the decency to let the family make the announcement on their own terms.
Toilet Paper US tells Trumpie that Charlie Kirk is dead. Trumpie can't resist telling everyone. Family finds out through a Truth Social post.
Does that stink of this being a false flag and Kirk was chosen as an expendable to anyone else??
Absolutely zero chance it's a false flag. Turning Point USA is a huge boon to the Trump admin.
I am not at all convinced the shooter was a leftist or liberal.
IMO we just need to wait and see. I see no evidence that the shooter was a leftist or liberal... because I've seen no evidence about the perp at all.
The golden rule of fascism: always first accuse others of the conspiracies you're going to engage in.
I'm betting the shooter is a pizza gater and got upset Charlie stopped talking about the Epstein files or something like that
probably wasn't a drag queen either.
Because the orange tumor ordered his execution?
Fuck around and find out.
Video of Charlie's callous attitude toward the victims of gun violence + him finding out (NSFW NSFL)
I don't feel bad when evil people die, but I also don't chuckle this much. The irony is very much alive, unlike Kirk.
His head is too fucking small in that.
fuck I guess at least it was worth it
I watched this while taking a shit. Thanks for the link!
I normally don't watch gore, but I made an exception because Kirk condoned guns so much. Still, that juxtaposition of the shot to the neck was quite shocking.
Sad they will never identify the vaccine that caused this.
sucks that a trans person/drag queen did this /jk
if only we weren't all trans by executive order. damn forcefemming trump
That's because it wasn't a vaccine!
It was the LiBeRaL mInD vIrUs!!!!1!! 😯
Bruh... We are in for an explosion of political violence... Only difference between now and the past is white wealthy men are the targets. Watching them freak out when they are gunned down on a random Wednesday is laughable. Welcome to your average black Americans reality. Police killings are political violence but no one with actual power ever gave a shit.
in for
I think we've been in one. After Trump got shot, I predicted that political assassination would be the "cool thing" among the stochastic terrorism types, and that seems to have been true, between Luigi, That guy who killed those legislators in MN, and now this.
I would like to note that Luigi Mangione has not been convicted of anything and it has not been proven that he was the one who killed the UnitedHealthCare CEO, there was also a lot of improper police conduct in relation to his arrest.
If we've been in one...
Just like "Elections are the pressure release of an unhappy populace" trust in rule of law helps prevent people from taking things into their own hands.
Police protection of right wing shotters, ignoring due process, the supreme court saying it's ok to break the law if you are Trump. People have lost faith in the instutions of law and are taking things into their own hands.
This is the result of the Republicans dismantling the norms of government and rule of law.
No, we are the targets now. This was the perfect excuse to increase militarization against the citizenry and distract from the Epstein Files. Whoever did this is a short-sighted idiot.
They were going to do that regardless of what happened today. At least they're one raging Nazi short.
You sound like when an abused child tells his baby sister not to do anything to make dad mad
Ps willing to bet it was the neo Nazies he was arguing with on Twitter with the week before. He he was figuratively telling them that their obvert racism was bad for business and the conservative agenda. And they said he's a jew simp and threatened him.
I mean they invaded dc. Likely this doesn't change anyone's plans
This was the perfect excuse to increase militarization against the citizenry and distract from the Epstein Files. Whoever did this is a short-sighted idiot.
For all we know, Kirk was a sacrificial lamb, and this is all part of the plan.
They say you should only speak good of the dead. He's dead. Good.
Bravo. Practice what you preach. It's about time these people started putting money where their mouth is, eh.
Or stick their necks out.
is this the mythical "good guy with a gun" that republicans promised?
Trump and his cult created this environment. His hate mongering and baiting brought us here.
cause <-> effect, then you're cooking
“One reason why we don’t kill is because we are not used to it. I never killed anybody, but I have done just the same thing. I have had a great deal of satisfaction over many obituary notices that I have read. I never got into the habit of killing. I could mention the names of many that it would please me if I could read their obituaries in the paper in the morning,”
~ Clarence Darrow
Was it his gay lover that killed him?
I am unironically concerned about the motives of his assassin. Every time we see something like this, I get this sinking feeling like we've just seen the assassination of Archduke Ferdinand.
But then, we keep discovering that they're right-wing nutjobs, and so the people who are praying for a civil war have to gnash their teeth and pretend like they're not just looking for any reason to go on a killing spree.
Nothing would please me more than if it was some personal reason, like a jilted gay lover.
They've already decided what they want to do. The military has invaded our nations capitol and our second largest city, Trump is threatening Chicago too, and we're giving a quarter of a trillion dollars to ICE etc. They were already using that Ukrainian woman's death to push their racist narrative. They will find something regardless. They will happily manufacture a controversy from anything. See Cracker Barrel.
My money is on right wing accelerationist
Supposedly it was an older white dude, and the alt-right has been rumbling about him (apparently he’s not conservative enough) for a while now. So I wouldn’t be surprised to find out that this is just another case of conservatives consuming each other.
You hate to see them fighting each other.
Was this to silence anyone with firsthand Epstein knowledge?
I wonder if Tucker Carlson is sh!tting his pants right about now.
We know Trump is. But that was before he heard the news.
Assuming he was was wearing pants and not tanning his balls.
Not sure he has any.
I think that's Steven Crowder, Charlie Kirk also did the 'change my mind' thing, but be had a much smaller face.
That is Crowder, but Kirk was under a "change my mind" banner when he said his last words.
Today I dance to P Funk, alive, and smoke weed to celebrate, alive.
You outlived Charlie Kirk. You're doing pretty good, I'd say.
ajj
I love the parade march from Phantom Menace so much
I'm completely apathetic to this news. I'm not going to celebrate his death. But I think there's a lesson hidden somewhere in here, we'll probably lots of lessons.
I've never wished a man dead, but I have read some obituaries with great pleasure.
Clarence Darrow
there's a lesson hidden somewhere in here
“People should be careful what they wish for.”
Particularly, his own admission that the deaths of innocents should be perfectly acceptable for 2nd amendment rights to be upheld.
Well, he sure set an example, now, didn’t he?
"Prove me wrong"
It is like someone falling to their death doing one of those "Free climbing to the top of a smokestack and hanging by one hand." videos. You don't celebrate it but you also think "Well you sort of knew it would come to a bad ending eventually."
I've been playing Lead Belly's Blue Tail Fly every few hours and substituting Monster for Master because i don't know the lyrics very well
That liberals are unhinged psychopath murderers who constantly roam around calling everyone a Nazi fascist racist bigot and further alienating themselves, to lose more elections as a result? That's definitely a lesson to be learned here. Keep on increasing that division and see where it gets you, this site will never take off because most normal people will read these threads and realize the mental derangement.
https://www.charliesmurderers.com/
Hundreds have already been fired for this rhetoric, and many more to come.
The things these people are saying aren't even remotely as rude as the sort of things Charlie would say at an average event. Kirk suggested gay people be stoned to death. He said George Floyd had it coming. He blamed rape victims for dressing poorly. But those are all just words.
So are you suggesting these people are murderers just because they are sharing some uncomfortable words? Curious.
And you can keep supporting ethnic cleansing, and then wonder why the entirety of planet earth thinks you're a Nazi.
Well, someone had to pay the troll toll. Guess it was me this time
31?! Hate really ages you.
"If a person has ugly thoughts, it begins to show on the face. And when that person has ugly thoughts every day, every week, every year, the face gets uglier and uglier until you can hardly bear to look at it.
A person who has good thoughts cannot ever be ugly. You can have a wonky nose and a crooked mouth and a double chin and stick-out teeth, but if you have good thoughts it will shine out of your face like sunbeams and you will always look lovely.
Roald Dahl, The Twits
Thoughts of malice, envy, disappointment, despondency, rob the body of its health and grace. A sour face does not come by chance; it is made by sour thoughts. Wrinkles that mar are drawn by folly, passion, and pride.
I know a woman of ninety-six who has the bright, innocent face of a girl. I know a man well under middle age whose face is drawn into inharmonious contours. The one is the result of a sweet and sunny disposition; the other is the outcome of passion and discontent.
James Allen, As a Man Thinketh
I have eleven years on him, he looks terrible compared to me.. and I spent most of my adult life drinking fairly heavily, among other things. lol
I'm 34 and I don't think Charlie Kirk looked old or bitter. People need to stop wanking themselves into a gooning, salivating delusion that people with their views are good looking, whereas people with opposing views are ugly. People are so delusional in these echo chambers - they need to look in the mirror.
I guess we'll never get a live action prison school if he isn't around to be andre
These memes are the only legacy of his that I will miss. The magical feeling of not knowing if any given image has his face photoshopped or not has been a consistent joy for such a long time. All good things must come to an end.
RIP…… now about those Epstein files.
I enjoyed a nice day of being alive today.
I’m pretty sure he wasn’t shot in the face.
Obviously not. Too small a target.
Remarkable, innit?
Thoughts and prayers 🙏
Oh also "Now is not the time".
Rest in piss.
Well, this isn't the front page obituary that I was looking for, but I'm not complaining.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA Fuck face got what he deserved.
Finally, a good guy with a gun.
Oh no! Thoughts and prayers.
Anyway.
Any video of the shooting? I'd like to see it
You sure fam? They very graphic.
Eh, saw it, RE4 original dying to chainsaw dude was way more traumatizing than this shit
They really arent. Jve seen way worse
Most tend to censor the exact moment of the shot. The ones that didn't were posted on YouTube, but I suspect they were deleted.
There's a partial one in this comment section
Well, I hope he enjoys burning 🔥 in hell.
Utah Saints! Utah Saints! U U U Utah saints!
Absolute banger.
I've never wished a man dead, but I have read some obituaries with satisfaction.
Karma comes for us all.
RIP bozo, it’s jover!
Anyone have the transcript of what he was talking about right before he was shot?
From Snopes:
ATTENDEE: Do you know how many transgender Americans have been mass shooters over the last 10 years?
KIRK: Too many. [Applause]
ATTENDEE: In America, it's five. Now, five is a lot, right, I'm going to give you — I'm going to give you some credit. Do you know how many mass shooters there have been in America over the last 10 years?
KIRK: Counting or not counting gang violence?
——
Bang.
Gotta love that casual bigotry throughout.
I fucking forgot "Gang Violence" is just blacks and poors shooting on another. FUCK I felt like that was at least a good question (if your a Nazi who wants to muddy the waters, anyway), but nope- racism! "How many shootings or how many black shootings?" bang
Ah, he died doing what he loved. Being an idiot racist.
Their entire speeches are christian nazi propaganda. So, he was talking about religion taking over the government, women having no rights, taking benefits from the children, disabled, and elderly, a police state responsible to no-one, forcing religious ideals on non-christian children, etc....
They're nazis. They talk about nazi goals. Openly and unabashedly. They will tell you they will hurt you if you're not a nazi, christian, or have the wrong color skin. That's their goal, and they're quite clear about it.
In the dumbest of time lines do you think this is a misdirection to make the news cycle stop talking about the epstein list and all the ties to him and his pedophilia?
Meh, some two-bit hack talking head isn't much of a distraction. It'd take a lot of luigis to distract from all the other the pedophiles in power.
The Schadenfreude is flowing freely today.
AAAAAAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAHHAAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
Not if it keeps happening
They say there’s never anything good in the news!
Relevant user avatar lmao
I've been giddy for a day and a half over this. Rest is hell, you sick fuck!
Posted about this yesterday. Get ready for more to come. I said things will likely go back to how it was in the 1900-1910’s with political murders.
“Prove ___ wrong.” Well now folks, how do we want to approach this angle?
Americans.
The day the democrats forced a vote and got shot down..
The guy was a fuckwit, but that looked like a rough way to go. Has to be hard for relatives, knowing that the video is out there.
It may have been horrific, but there is poetry is being a career apologist for gun violence, to them die in the act of apologizing and blaming minorities for gun violence, to then die from the bullet of a gun.
His very last work, was "violence".
Respectfully, his last word was:
Ggrrgl
It'd be tough, but they presumably had ample opportunities to identify and curtail his fuckwittery before it came to this.
Fucking wild that a right-wing YouTuber/social media influencer was assassinated on my birthday.
I'm genuinely sickened by how many people have been openly celebrating Charlie Kirk's death, like having conservative views or supporting the right to bear arms literally makes you Hitler in their eyes. His two young childen have been robbed of their father, and people are still cheering like they'd genuinely use his grave as a gender neutral toilet.
Also, I worry this is going to be America's Reichstag Fire or Kristallnacht moment. This could very well lead to pogroms against leftists and ethnic minorities.
He was a lot worse than that - he was a legit purveyor of hate.
I'm pretty sure the first one is fake and the second one is a joke. Nobody gets sweaty and nervous because a black person is the captain or co-pilot. He's just making a joke about DEI which was going around recently. Some of his opinions may be ridiculous but we've all said ridiculous things. I didn't know anything about Charlie Kirk until this week, I'm actually quite impressed with his college debates. He was giving people political experience and being really decent with people, he even discouraged crowds from jeering the speakers.
He was literally in the process of blaming trans people and black people for school shootings.
We are celebrating a fascist no longer being able to encourage violence against marginalized people.
Which is wild, because the fact that you are celebrating instead of a normal reaction (like, i don't know, feel bad for his family or something) will lead to them feeling confirmed in their hate towards the left.
cry about it. him abd his extended circle killed far more people with their actions. they're just not as blatant as a bullet to the neck :)
cry about it. him abd his extended circle killed far more people with their actions.
You mean he sniped people with his words? lol, get real kid.
This guy's propaganda helped result in the unnecessary deaths of millions during the pandemic.
Kirk was pro death penalty and thought children should watch executions.
https://www.newsweek.com/charlie-kirk-death-penalty-public-executions-1873073
If you're going to wring your hands over what people are saying about Kirk while ignoring the horrible shit he said then YOU are the problem.
If you're going to say shit like "this is going to be America's Reichstag" while ignoring the assassination of two democrats a few months ago and ignoring the attempted murder of Pelosi's husband then YOU are the problem.
Charlie was against empathy, you are being disrespectful by showing empathy to him and his family. Stop.
Also stop referencing the Reichstag fire as though the gestapo isn't already rounding up immigrants and dissidents. You're just afraid they'll start targeting people who look like you (something that was already in the plan, btw).
I agree that we should not ever celebrate someone's death. Violence isn't the answer. Sometimes it's required to defend yourself, but it doesn't solve problems.
With all that being said, if you think that motivation for his killing was that he was a right wing, 2nd amendment type, well, I've got some land in Australia I'd like to sell you.
The guy was genuinely horrible to a lot of non conservatives, and thought gun violence was "a small price to pay" for the second amendment.
Others have detailed his horrific viewpoints far better than I could, so I'll just leave it at that.
As much as I don't condone violence, I'm not going to get sad about someone I didn't know, who held beliefs I don't agree with, has died. I have some measure of sympathy for his kids. His spouse knew who they were marrying, so I have less sympathy for them, but the kids, in my opinion, are the victims in all of this, if anyone. They didn't ask for this guy to be their father, and they certainly don't deserve to lose their father in such a public and very visible way. I have zero doubts that they will eventually see the footage that's floated around the Internet, if they have not seen it already. That's a tragedy. They'll have to see, in full color, the last moments of their fathers life.
I can only imagine the kind of trauma that could impart. I truly feel bad for those kids.
I can only imagine the kind of trauma that could impart. I truly feel bad for those kids.
Thousands of people saw the video of him being killed, that's not great either. Luckily I've seen worse, I'm now immune, but a lot of zoomers just saw graphic violence for the first time and they will have problems with mood and sleep for a while.
Appreciate you saying this. I too worry that some will take this event as a call to action. We all need to chill with this left/right nonsense. These are our brothers and sisters that are getting killed. I don't care if they had bad opinions, nothing good comes from celebrating a murder.
Oh no, not your heckin birthday! What are you now, 10?
Also, I worry this is going to be America’s Reichstag Fire or Kristallnacht moment. This could very well lead to pogroms against leftists and ethnic minorities.
I'm in New Zealand so I don't care if revenge killings claim lives, let Americans fight for control of their country lol. That said, there are plenty of us who are reasonable, the problem is with the "neuro-diverse" teenagers and twenty-something year olds on Lemmy and other left-wing echo chambers. These people who never had a real job in their life, they just work in government office jobs and live with mum and dad. Of course they're brainwashed. I just hope that they grow up soon. Ideology isn't something that you have to believe to the letter. Nobody has to live their whole live according to ideology. It'll only lead to that person becoming miserable.
Thank you! I am shocked how few here understand that violence as an answer to hate will only further deepen the spiral of hate and violence. Y'all feel justified because the guy was a transhating fascist, but the right will see you guys celebrate and only take it as confirmation that the left are literal demons that have no empathy for two children robbed of their father.
Why is this site full of constant hatred and far-left psychopathy? No difference of opinions or dialogue. I guess I need to stick to reddit unfortunately. But this is why the left are going to lose the elections for the next 8 years, so congrats on the hateful rhetoric, I recommend becoming even more unhinged to push even more people away from that alignment. Seal your fate forever.
Because a guy whose entire role in the world was to develop a program of political violence, dying to political violence; well thats just fucking hilarious.
I mean his very last words were quite litterally trying to justify the kind of violence that he died from: 👌🫦 💦
And your reaction: Its even MORE hilarious.
The losers/ creeps/ idiots calling this "WAR" are the same idiots/ losers/ creeps that were calling Cracker Barrel changing their logo "WAR": No sane person takes them seriously.
Its a great thing that he's gone. He was human filth. He was doing real damage to the social fabric and the only people outraged by the reaction to a human poop nugget getting what he deserved are also people actively tearing at the social fabric of human society.
Fuck Charlie Kirk, fuck Trump, and fuck any fascist apologist who make any excuses for them.
Not sure if “hilarious” is the right term considering it was very expected. If you live by the sword you die by the sword.
Dead nazis deserve no sympathy.
Keep calling everyone you disagree with Nazis and see how many elections you win after this.
Blud they just tried to assassinate a senator and hid wife in Minnesota in June... They've been bombing and burning, shooting clinics for so many years
Lefties can only aspire to be as free of hateful rhetoric as the angels of the right. Remember when Biden released 1500 violent conspiratards after they attacked the capitol, which resulted in the death of multiple people? thanks Obama
Hello? I told you to explain to me why Charlie Kirk jerked his wad to little children getting fucked and murdered. Explain. Now, please.
I don't know. Why does Donald Trump fuck little kids, and have innocent brown people kidnapped off the streets? And why did Kirk support that? Why did Donald Trump attempt, incompetently to weaponize an epidemic, and allow it to spiral into a pandemic? And why did Kirk support that? Why did Charlie Kirk advocate for children getting mowed down by automatic weapons, so he can go hunt innocent animals? Why was he such an asshole? Answer those questions first, since they all happened first. Then I'll tell you why I laughed at his Kool Aid Fountain neck.
He did more than to bring violence to my community than nearly any other public figure. He may not have personally pulled a trigger or struck a blow, but I know for sure he would not have shed a tear over any of the transgender or minority deaths he encouraged. Why do you expect me to do anything but repay him in kind.
Constant hate? Ha.
I wouldn't have wished harm on this MAGA weirdo or any other MAGA crazies. MAGA are the ones actually posting for retaliation violence. I have lost sympathy for the pedophile worshipping MAGA cult.
However, I am going to laugh my ass off when stuff like this happens to hate filled bigots.
Let the revenge killings begin, it's the only way the left will learn.
It sure does seem that way. They think they have carte blanche to murder or commit violence towards anybody they want, but they've awakened a quiet giant. This is not going to turn out how they want no matter how much misinformation and circlejerking they spread around here.