1w ago

The weapons that National Guard troops now carry in Washington, D.C.

www.nbcnews.com The weapons that National Guard troops now carry in Washington, D.C.

The pistols and powerful rifles guard members carry are similar to those local police use across the country. Troops have been told to use their weapons only as a last resort.

Armed guard members will carry the type of weapon they are normally issued and trained on, typically M17 handguns and M4 semiautomatic rifles, similar to assault-style rifles, the Defense Department officials said. Some guard members will carry M9 pistols.

The military weapons are similar to those used by local police departments across the United States. The M4 is a standard semiautomatic rifle and has roughly the same capabilities as semiautomatic rifles used by law enforcement agencies.

Completely incorrect. NBC is clearly trying to downplay the seriousness of this. M4 rifles are not assault "style". They are assault rifles, fullstop. The M4, and other assault rifles, are not legal for civilian use. They have full automatic or burst fire capability, depending on the specific model.

The weapons these soldiers are carrying are not AR-15s. These are not "assault weapons". These are weapons of war. They are not for civilian hunters or shooting competitions. They are for killing human beings.

116 comments

The whole thread is mostly on semantics of firearms and their presence. Does it really matter if the National Guard was issued pink polka-dot pogo sticks instead?
It is still a military force present on civilian soil, which is in violation of the Posse Comitatus Act in the way they did it. The Federal government continues to violate its own laws, as well as the Constitution. The core issue of everything going on right now.
- The whole thread is mostly on semantics of firearms and their presence.
  I've found this to be pretty much any article that even tangentially relates to firearms. Gun nuts will never leave semantics and have an actual discussion.
  
  I've increasingly noticed that Lemmy has a LOT of gun nuts. The "Kids who grew up playing call of duty and want to make like Swayze and scream 'wildcats'" crowd make sense since that is an increasing number of progressives and internet leftists.
  But I've increasingly noticed the other flavor of "moderate" who are rabidly guns' rights activists but who also are adamant that nobody is allowed to criticize the military and doing so is going to let the fascists win. And... I am increasingly noticing them coming from the sh.itjust.works instance. This thread used to be crossposted to their /c/conservative? Not sure if it still is and I just don't understand UIs. And yesterday their /c/politics mod went batshit insane over people not standing for the pledge or whatever and was banning anyone who wouldn't tell (let's be real) him what state they live in.
  Never noticed anything too bad from them in the past but they are rapidly getting to dot ml levels of crazy and might even reach dot hexbear if this keeps up.
  
  I am amazed at how gun nuts argue whether or not it's semi- or fully automatic. Who cares?! It could still fire at a rapid rate and kill more people in a matter of seconds than matchlocks or knives. And don't get me started with the "guns don't kill people, people kill people" rhetoric. Cars and knives could kill people, sure, but guns are designed specifically to kill living beings.
- Gotta be extremely naive to believe laws are for anybody except the poor, minorities, indigenous, etc.
  It's always been more than legal to enforce privilege through violence, planetary destruction, etc.
- We can all assume that the act in question is going to be repealed soon enough.

I mean, the majority of guns are for shooting and killing human beings. That’s pretty much what they were invented for.
- Yes but these are the talking points the NRA give out that "liberal gun owners" also start regurgitating. The idea that their Emotional Support Assault Rifle (ESAR for short) is safe and important because it isn't the standard issue weapon of the US military.
  Its why you see so much "an M4 is not an AR-15" stupidity (that firearms experts and "guntube" continue to call idiotic). Which is an outright lie because the M4 (and M16 before it) is literally a military designation for a specific configuration of the AR-15 platform (actually a family of designations because M4A1, M4A2, etc). Pretending that it somehow stops being an AR-15 because it has select fire capabilities is like pretending it stops being an AR-15 once you put an optic on it.
  And a lot of that boils down to one of the biggest poison pills in what little gun control the US has (which I'll refer to as the NFA for shorthand). The idea that the big danger of privately owned firearms is automatic fire is an outright lie when militaries around the world actively discourage soldiers from using automatic fire on anything but a machine gun (and said machine gunners are trained to fire in very controlled bursts, if not single shots, even when suppressing an enemy position...).
  And it is especially hilarious because most modern ESARs are based on weapons systems that were specifically designed for military use and where re-enabling the holy automatic fire is the work of a dremel and a trip to the hardware store.
  As a tangent. Funny enough, the past decade or so has seen a very large rise in Emotional Support guns that are actively NOT suitable for any modern combat (still great for slaughtering kindergartners though).
  The rising cost of intermediate ammunition (e.g. 5.56/.223) because everyone panic buys it every time the world catches on fire has led to a huge rise in "pistol caliber carbines" which are just military rifle platforms (e.g. the AR-15) but chambered for handgun ammo. So... reinventing submachine guns but with the appropriate attachment points for all the tacticool shit.
  And then you have the Keltec Specials which are borderline novelty guns designed to get some publicity at a convention and then be sold to rich people and folk who need an ESAR but cheaper. The "joke" being that if you got one of those designers even slightly drunk they would outright say that anyone who thinks those will hold up under even slightly adverse conditions is a moron.
  
  Emotional Support Assault Rifles?
  Also, isn't the M4A1 an improvement on the M16 (which is based on the AR15 platform)?
  I'd argue the M4A1 is a /great/ firearm. Are there other ARs that have better features? Yes. Have I shot an M4A1 in combat? Nope. But I have shot an M4A1. Compared to other rifles I've shot (OK this is limited), the M4A1 just feels good to shoot. It's not painful, it's pretty damn accurate, and you can add stuff to make it really fit you. It is pretty good for medium, medium-long shooting.
  Also, I don't know why people buy automatic rifles. It's not accurate, and if you don't know what you're doing, you're going to cause damage to the gun. Semi-auto single fire/burst is where it's at because when you fire a gun, you want to hit what you're intending to hit.
  OK, now the reason I'm replying. If you asked me five years ago if firearms are necessary, I'd have said no. It's great fun but wholly unnecessary. I have since changed my opinion.
  The federal government is supposed to protect us from tyrannical state governments. The state government is supposed to protect us from tyrannical federal governments through militias. The issue is, a lot of states don't have an official state militia outside of the National Guard (note: if you're not authorized by the state you're not a militia, you're a terrorist group). With the current federal government taking control of the state militia (national guard) to use against the states, we're reaching a time where either the state-only militias need to do something because this breaks MANY laws or we actually need to defend ourselves.
  I oppose outright banning AR-15 and derivatives. While they won't stop a tank from destroying your neighborhood, or a bomber from taking out your neighborhood, they are a deterrent if we start exercising our 2a right against non-uniformed people kidnapping the citizens off the street. I think the states should allow it, and the states should highly regulate these guns.
  
  Yes. Let's disarm ourselves while a fascist gov is running things.
  You're the equivalent of "thoughts and prayers" from repubs.
- Yeah, but the M4 is really good at it
- You forgot hunting.
  
  Firearm use for hunting came much later than human killing.
- The difference is if they get a SAW or other crew served weapons, unlike the assault rifle the fully automatic machine gun is designed to kill hundred+ of people at once and the closer together they are the more that will get hit. That's a qualitatively different kind of gun.

Under the rules of engagement, deadly force is authorized only “upon reasonable belief of an imminent threat of death or serious bodily harm,” one of the defense officials said.
So, they strip you of your constitution rights and if you show anything other than submissiveness, that will be enough for them to feel threatened.
- That's all police in a nutshell.
- If you attack someone aggressively enough, there’s a probability they’ll instinctively fight back—and fighting back could cause serious bodily harm to the attacker.
  So as soon as you decide to attack an unsuspecting person, you could conclude that there’s an immanent risk of bodily harm to yourself before they’ve even reacted.
  
  No, the military rules of engagement is vastly different than police. Unlike the cops you can't just light someone up because you feel like you might be threatened.

I don't care what weapons they have, they ARE NOT TO BE USED AGAINST AMERICANS. The constitution is very clear on this, but the administration hates the constitution. Plain and simple these troops being sent out are illegal orders and hopefully the servicemen and women obey their oath to the constitution and do not report for duty.
- Don't worry,, he'll make sure all the shot people stop being citizens after the fact.
- Yeah. Hopefully these brainwashed children are extra brainwashed but the "right way", the lib way. Surely they'll worship the holy document more than the holy man... \s
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_religion

They are not for civilian hunters
Ohhh, sorry OP. I think M4s are specifically designed for civilian hunters. They seem very useful when hunting them.
(Jokes are my coping mechanism 💜)

If I'm not mistaken, the M17 is military name for the SIG P320... the one that likes to go bang whenever it feels like it, regardless of what the person holding (or not holding) it wants.
That's fine... This is fine.
- P320 is M17, shorter barrel is named M18. I suspect that just like USAF, the NGs use mostly M18 which were cleared from possible malfunctions except that they wear down from use too quickly for heavy use.
  
  These guys play military two days a month. I sincerely doubt they've checked every single pistol for malfunction. There's a chance they didn't even hear about the airman.

Huh? Is the National Guard issued some special version of the M4 without select fire? Wouldn’t the standard version be automatic? I feel like the term semi automatic is incorrect here.
Also, M4s are AR-15s.
- Fully Automatic does should a little more aggressive, as it is much more aggressive. Can't have facts in the media anymore.
- They should be single and three round burst selections. Burst is rarely used and not really important. Outside of an unusual situation where you need to fire all your ammo asap, it's usually just wasted because it's less accurate. Exceptions do include a crowd of people swarming you.
  
  Only the original M4 used three round bursts. The M4A1 switched to full auto.

AR-15s ARE weapons of war. They (more specifically the AR-10 which was more or less refined based on feedback into the AR-15) were specifically made to meet general calls by militaries around the world with the intent of becoming the standard issue infantry weapon for as many armies as possible. The focus on automatic fire (especially in the NFA...) is particularly disingenuous as the vast majority of militaries "strongly discourage" troops from ever firing in anything other than semi automatic because it is a waste of ammunition.
The problem isn't that we have jackbooted thugs who are armed with weapons that they can't get from a local walmart.
Also, just pure pedantry but: M4s ARE AR-15s.
- What? AR-15s are hunting rifles cosplaying as military hardware.
  
  Don’t know why you were downvoted for a factual comment. Military grade is vastly different. Most consumers even with deep pockets such as myself aren’t going to cough up $13k for a proper AR-15 with fully automatic trigger and higher quality barrels and better BCG.

I want to know if they are being issued ammo.
- The National Guard? If they are given a gun by logistics then they are being given ammo. This isn't Enemy at the Gates (or VERY specific and isolated cases on the Eastern Front of WW2). So expect LOTS of discount green tips on the East coast in the near future.
  The deputized proud boys? They just bring their own.
  
  It has been a pretty common thing for the national guard to be deployed domestically with weapons but no ammo, or with ammo on their person but not loaded into their weapons, so it's a valid question.
  
  Not correct. NG has levels of escalation they use that determines what kind of equipment they carry. This can vary from not being armed, to carrying rifles with no magazines, empty magazines, loaded magazines with no rounds chambered, up to full combat readiness. I've had conversations with NG and former active duty combat guys I work with specifically about this, some of them with a lot of experience and rank.
  Not to support their deployment in our cities or use as a weapon against our people for exercising their rights, just correcting misinformation. Of the ones I still interact with and trust, they don't support this shit either.

Can someone explain to me who these people are? What were they doing before they've been ordered to DC? Are they a standing army, training while they're not ordered somewhere? Or are they reservists? Or police from elsewhere?
- Basically reservists, the National Guard is brought up under control of the states/feds for emergencies/disasters. Generally you'd see them building flood levees or rescuing people in hurricanes or (occasionally) shooting college students in the '70s. They're not really designed for peace time occupation but the admin's gotta find jack boots somewhere.
- The National Guard are the remnants of the militias that the US used to depend on and that the second amendment was actually about. The idea of civilians with military training who can be raised in times of great need and... what many (most?) Global North countries have as their default.
  Many of them are former active duty military (e.g. The Army) who wanted to keep pulling an extra paycheck and benefits after becoming civilians. Others are just dumbasses who got tricked by the "Just spend two weekends out of the year training and you too can have an ice sword that kills dragons" nonsense.
  Their actual role is... questionable. Sometimes they get pulled in to help with natural disasters but they have no meaningful training outside of holding guns to scare people and maybe building sandbag walls. According to a climbing buddy who had to interface with them back during Hurricane Katrina... they actively made everything worse and got in the way constantly and she had to unofficially allocate resources to protect the Guard that could have otherwise been spent helping rescue those in need. But, Support The Troops(TM) and all that. Back in uni, they were the jackboots who were called out any time people "rioted" (theoretically because a sports team lost or it was Spring Break. Mostly because kids started protesting) and their job was to look intimidating and bully/beat on anyone who was out past curfew.
  A not insignificant number were also sent to Iraq/Afghanistan when the US Military realized they couldn't keep stop-lossing everyone who was dumb enough to sign up for the Military proper.
  In their day to day civilian life? They are basically just normal people. Some work in tech, others food service, and MANY are small town cops because that also lets them carry a gun. The key unifying factor is they all will act like they are heroic veterans who killed fiddy men and make damned sure to flaunt their military credentials to board planes faster or to get a discount at the hardware store.
  Like a lot of things modern military, it is worth looking at the Invasion of Ukraine. The professional soldiers (former standing military and PMCs from around the world) make up the forces that actually take ground or are deployed for operations where skill and discipline are needed. The civilian population that were conscripted and given a gun man the trenches because all that is really needed there are bodies to send bullets down range and soak up the ones coming back at them.
  The National Guard are very much the latter.
  
  That's not correct at all in regards to your last paragraph. NG is on average older and much more experienced than an average infantry 18 year old with no deployments.
- They're brainwashed children serving fascism.
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_religion

Well ofc... The state doesn't violently control people with nerf guns.
- Expecting to use violence to control people in the USA is like expecting to control bears with bear spray.
  If Trump thinks he can pull a Tiananmen Square then he's about to find out the tanks can lose.
  
  I mean…civilian gun hoarders vs the US military? We wouldn’t win. Sure, you could see a long drawn out guerrilla war, but head to head we do not have the advantage

The M4, and other assault rifles, are not legal for civilian use.
Well...they're legal, but unlike with semi-auto rifles, you need a license --- an FFL --- and the federal government isn't required to give you one. You can find plenty of YouTube footage of people shooting legally-owned automatic weapons.
- You don't need an FFL, it's a 200 dollar tax stamp, some lengthy background checks, and you have to find one made before 1986 owned by someone who's willing to sell it to you.
  You can kind of get around that by getting an FFL to acquire post-1986 machine guns, but that comes with its own red tape, and you can basically only get them for your business as a gun shop. If you close up shop, you gotta get rid of the new machine guns.

Armed military trash pickup patrol. What a fine use of taxpayer dollars, bravo.

Fuck these soldier bums too for not resisting. I’m fully aware of the consequences of resisting but I don’t care. These are people who are putting guns on their own citizens. Fuck them.
- The current thing is legally allowed so there's no cause to refuse. It's only allowed under the law like once for 30 days so it will be future uses that are unlawful.
  Resisting right now would just be complaining that you wanted to sleep in.
- These are people who are putting guns on their own citizens.
  Provide a source for a claim like that, even just pointing them at people.
  All they're doing is walking around, why the fuck would you want to pick a fight with them. When everyday they walk around picking up trash they hate trump even more?
  You're literally doing what trump wants, by going after them you drive them towards trump.
  Do you legitimately not understand any of this?
  
  These people don't understand that. If the people's army isn't on your side you're going to lose. They just label the cashier in the NG as a traitor to help themselves cope with the fact that they're losing. I try not to blame the hate though. They're just scared idiots.

"Powerful M4"
Just... Like, the M4 is a Carbine. Don't tell me it's not an AR-15. That's like saying a Chrysler Neon is not a Dodge Neon. Most M4s don't have full auto.
- There is some nomenclature problem with the article and general public by in large. The M4 designation is specifically a military thing. And all the ones assigned in the military may shoot the same ammo we do as civilians, their M4s have three round burst and full auto. While not "more powerful" I would argue they are more deadly especially to dense crowds. You but something labeled an M4 as an American citizen, you can even get ones with full auto if you pay and wait. But regardless what they call them, if an Ar-15 style weapon is sold on the civilian market it is not an M4.

They're only repeating the technical-sounding terms they have heard over and over again in other news reports about firearms without really understanding what they mean.
And because these reports they've based their limited understanding on were majoritarily about gun violence perpetrated with civilian rifles, they don't understand how to talk about actually military firearms.
These news reporters have downright behaved like generative AI.

NBC is clearly trying to downplay the seriousness of this
To be fair a civilian AR-15 with a $0.50 worth of 3d printed plastic mimicks the rate of fire of full auto while remaining much more controllable.
I'm really not going to be surprised when militaries start using those.
But lots of NG let people use their own rifles now even, even if they're strict semi-auto.
It's just not that big of a distinction between AR-15 and M4.
Side note:
Some guard members will carry M9 pistols.
I still hate they tanked Beretta's contract if they had let them submit a new model it would have dominated. I don't know what idiot thought there wasn't a difference between a service sidearm and a concealed carry firearm.

I dunno I think an article about the specific guns the guard members are carrying is a little less important than the fact that the guard should NOT BE THERE AT ALL. Every siren that exists should be going off and yet NBC and the rest just don’t give a fuck, they’re like happy about it

what a waste of money.

Hopefully not that trigger happy Sig 9mm. That fucker is killing more troops than any recent conflict. Blowing dudes balls off.

The article said the M17 pistol is basically the Sig Sauer P320. Could be entertaining. For those not familiar, the P320 is developing a reputation for unintentional discharges.

Sooner or later a flag will be raise with a infamous logo on it in the capital.

Locked and loaded?

This whole thing is a BS publicity stunt for both sides. Trump wants you to be afraid and distracted, the media wants you to be afraid, the reality is the National Guard isn't doing jack shit and barely has any presence there.
https://youtu.be/eo1uowKXnBk
From mainstream media reports, you would think the National Guard is patrolling DC's streets, but as you can see in the video above, they're nowhere to be found. People haven't even seen them firsthand, it's all second hand reports of "well, I haven't seen it. But I HEARD they were seen by others elsewhere".
This is some horseshit. Nothing we read online is real anymore. They just push out a handful of troops for a quick photo op and then vanish, because the illusion of this happening is more important than if it's actually happening. Which it's not.
- Yeah, just go ahead and keep trying to normalize domestic military occupation with the express purpose to apply lethal force to citizens exercising their constitutional right to protest, you fascist troll.
  
  Except the thing is THEY ARENT FUCKING THERE! This isn't "normalizing" it, it's pointing out the whole thing is a fucking farce! How the fuck does that make me a fascist?! You god damn mouth-breathing, inbred, DUMB FUCK! Why are you so fucking stupid?! Did you even watch the video? Did you even fucking read my comment?!

I get why they used assault style if they're semi automatic.
Do I agree? No
It's a semi automatic assault rifle not a semi automatic assault style rifle

If they are not capable of automatic or burst fire, they are not, in fact, assault weapons. That's what the qualifier "select fire" means.

Defund the VA now.
- Three questions: What? Why? Aren't you in the UK instance?
  
  Why? Because Americans put troops on a pedestal. The VA should be defunded to remove enlistment incentives. The money should be used to fund universal healthcare.

116 comments