5d ago

Red meat wreaks havoc on gut and drives inflammatory bowel disease (IBD) in study on mice

newatlas.com Red meat wreaks havoc on gut and drives inflammatory bowel disease

A new study has produced strong evidence that red meat consumption is a trigger for inflammatory bowel disease (IBD), demonstrating how it alters gut bacteria and immune activity in ways that worsen inflammation. It furthers scientific knowledge of the many pathways involved in inflammation, taking…

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mice were fed three types of red meat – pork, beef and mutton
I assume most mice don't regularly eat large livestock.
Are mice evolved to eat red meat? The article doesn't really say.
However, there were limitations to the study. As well as it being a mice model [...]
- Yes, mice eat red meat.
  Mice are omnivores and are opportunistic eaters. They’ll eat whatever they can find.
  
  Mice do not eat that much meat of other mammals.
  Giving an over abundance of it, for a long time, will shock the mouse.
- In the animal study, mice were fed three types of red meat – pork, beef and mutton – every day for two weeks. Then, the researchers triggered colitis (a model for IBD) using a chemical called dextran sulfate sodium (DSS).
  They definitely aren't evolved to eat dextran sulfate sodium.
- Was the first thing I thought of. “Standard diets,” vs non-standard pretty quickly calls into question how much we need to account for the divergence from typical. If I go to India (I’m from the USA), there will be meals that aren’t standard for me that might cause distress that are nonetheless fine for the local population.
- Are mice evolved to eat red meat?
  They haven't. So haven't we. 😄
  
  Humans been eating big game ever since we figured how to hunt it.
  
  You mean a few million years of evolution couldn't completely redesign our digestive system? Weak bruh.

Look I'm all for the idea that we eat too much meat currently and all, but are mice really good analogs for humans in this instance? I'm not a scientist of any sort, so I really don't know, but it seems to me like a creature that doesn't naturally eat, like, any red meat would be a bad analog here.
- Humans also don't generally eat poison. But the mice in this study were poisoned with DSS after eating meat. Maybe meat is not the real culprit here...
  
  Honey I don't know bout you but it's Friday night this human is absolutely gonna be enjoying some poison!
  
  I mean alcohol is poison, we have consumed that substance for longer than we(globally) have been eating tomatoes, potatoes, coffee and refined sugar.
  Multiple cultures around the world have independently invented some form of alcohol
  And other species also routinely ingests poison for pleasure.
  Dolphins getting high on pufferfish toxins, Elephants getting absolutely shit faced on fermented fruits such as amarula
- They will eat anything... It is a rodent.

Well… I guess we’re just not going to bother taking into account that red meat isn’t part of a mouse’s diet? And that maybe they’re going to react poorly when force fed things they generally don’t eat? This type of bullshit science needs to be called out for what it is.
Next, maybe we should see how well whales react if we feed them 3,000lbs of french fries.
- At the same time, a lot of places aren't going to let scientists test on something closer to humans without something clearly showing a reason for it. The ethics board would wonder why they didn't try it on mice first, and wouldn't approve anything else.
  That they found an effect in mice would be good justification to move up a step. If there was no effect, then that would be the end of that.
- I assume you went through the actual published article and have the necessary expertise to come to this "bullshit" conclusion.
  I don't really know enough about mouse (and human) gut biome to know what the similarities and caveats are.
  
  Garlic, onions, citrus and beans fuck up and can even possibly kill mice, so it's not a straight comparison by any stretch
  
  A quick google search will tell you what the primary diet of mice is: nuts and berries, small vertebrates and carrion.
  Not USDA grade prime rib.

That's it! Uninviting all the mice from the next BBQ.
- They do terrible, terrible things to the guest bathroom

What if I eat the red meat without stuffing it into a mouse first?
- Need a new study for that.

They intentionally chemically triggered IBD in the mice, how the fuck is this conclusive of anything?
- Going by the article, it was more that it made it worse when it happened, rather than starting it.
  
  Eating food that is known to irritate IBD after inducing IBD will irritate IBD. Revelatory.

Next time I meet up with my mouse friends I'll be sure to let them know.

I'm not a mouse, and humans have been eating red meat (whenever they could get it) for literally aeons.
- Sure, but they had meat maybe once or twice per week. Nowadays we have meat five times per day.
  
  They ate protein moderately and only enough to satiate their appetite. But if they were using storage methods ranging from hot springs to drying and fermentation they were eating red meat daily for months. Remaining meat was given to dogs (which eat unlimited amounts of protein). Fat was what humans ate in vast quantities. They'd go to extreme lengths to eat all sources of fat and marrow.
  Although this study though doesn't make quite the same point that you're making.
  The researchers artificially caused IBD in the mice by injecting them with a compound that damages their mucosal layer in the gut.
  So what they're saying is that once you have IBD you might want to eat a low protein diet. This is consistent with diets that were used to treat diarrhea (which suggests ibd) such as the BRAT diet.
  
  Nowadays we have meat five times per day.
  Who the hell is eating meat 5 times a day? Jordan Peterson??
- You should see what a pure veggie diet does to humans! Crop dusting left and right.
  
  Just cut down on the legumes and the gas will pass.

I didn't know we had so many PhD level gastroenterologists on Lemmy, I'm glad we've attracted such an educated community and we're not filled with reactionary nerds who vaguely remember their freshman zoology class.
- "i'm not a mouse"
  Checkmate nerds
- When inconvenient truths arrive about people's preferred habits, they often become instant field experts.
  As an aside, mice are opportunistic omnivores - this information can be found with ease. They will eat whatever the fuck they can find and will gladly feed on a cow's carcass. This added context makes the instant field expert comments claiming they're herbivores and that 'this study is obviously bad' even more embarrassing.

For me this is a case of picking the lesser poison. I have IBD and FODMAPs give me major issues. This means most fruit and vegetables, plus dairy and wheat, cause major issues. Meat, including red meat, is one of the few foods which don’t cause me intestinal pain, bloating, and diarrhea. Studies indicate a not insignificant proportion of the population have issues with FODMAPs, and they also tend to fare much better with meat.
- I used to have mediocre IBS symptoms. Never to the point of being debilitating, but such that I was always aware where the closest toilet was and got anxious if it was too far away.
  There was an article about studies being done on using common antihistamin to treat IBS that helped in many cases. Tried it and never looked back. That pretty much solved my bowel ussues.
  
  So would you feel symptoms and take the antihistamines to avoid the squirtybum, or take them ahead of eating?
  
  Thanks for the suggestion. Antihistamines help when symptoms are caused by histamine or histadine rich foods. Some people have overactive mast cell activity or produce too little DAO. You could also try DAO supplements. Which antihistamine works for you?
- I've read lots of compelling data about IBD and a plant-free diet, do you have any experience trying it?

That's fine, we already know how to cure any disease in mice.
- Yeah that cure works for humans too. Far more cost effective. Just ask any insurance company, fascist, etc.

Where's that old Twitter bot that would append in mice to reports of these bullshit studies?
- Does the Lemmy post title not have "in mice" in it for you? I added it to the title of the post to clarify this. It should show as
  Red meat wreaks havoc on gut and drives inflammatory bowel disease (IBD) in study on mice
  Whereas the original title of the article was:
  Red meat wreaks havoc on gut and drives inflammatory bowel disease
  
  Oh yeah absolutely, I wasn't criticising you at all, was just noting the 'in mice' thing that's all!

Let me get this straight. Herbivores shouldn't eat meat‽ Holy crap! this changes everything!
- Mice are omnivores like us. That said, just because something is bad for a mouse doesn’t necessarily mean it’s bad for humans.

https://theonion.com/national-beef-council-debuts-new-youre-supposed-to-feel-like-that-campaign/

Personally know multiple carnivores who can't stop shitting themselves and still swear by the diet.
- I personally know a few carnivores that they wish they could shit more often than twice a week.
  
  Fun fact, removing fibre from the diet is the only method demonstrated in a interventional control trial in eliminating clinical constipation.
  Stopping or reducing dietary fiber intake reduces constipation and its associated symptoms
  
  If these people are still eating lots of fiber (or cheese) they might want to cut that out.
- What's your point?
  
  Maybe the fact is true because my anecdotal evidence aligns with it.
- I find that remarkable considering the fact that astronauts would eat high protein foods to minimize their bowel movements because the human body will efficiently absorb highly bioavailable proteins and fat (e.g. from animal sources) it consumes. Considering human feces are 75% water and the remaining 25% are primarily bacterial biomass and plant matter, my guess is the carnivores you know have just started the diet and have upset their stomachs with the sudden change.
  
  fact that astronauts would eat high protein foods to minimize their bowel movements because the human body will efficiently absorb highly bioavailable proteins and fat (e.g. from animal sources) it consumes.
  To minimize their bowel movements, astronauts had a high-protein, low-residue diet — think steak and eggs and other foods that are don't make a lot of waste after they are absorbed by the body.
  Wow, that is a fun fact! I had no idea. That is going into trivia night
- I am a carnivore, and I talk to other carnivores. In the group people who only eat animal based food, and no plants: Our poop is consistent, infrequent (1-2 days), minimal, moves easily and not smelly.
  
  Sure thing buddy, enjoy your meme diet while you can lol

Anecdotally, I've had way less stomach issues since shifting largely to white meat and a mostly plant based diet.

Were mice?
- Weremice?

I'm not a mouse. What do I give a fuck?
- You are not a black woman. So fuck black people and fuck women /s
  
  fuck women
  You wish...

Gotta love all the people suddenly realizing that vivisection is worthless... thinking that meat is natural for humans but not mice.... wew.

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