6d ago

What made you join a losing cause?

There's a lot of people on here who are part of what I'd call losing causes, causes that run counter to the consumerist capitalist mono-culture, I.e. socialism, veganism, FOSS, anti-car urbanism, even lemmy and the fediverse.

I want to know what made you switch from being a sympathizer to an active participant. I believe it's important for us to understand what methods work in getting people involved in a movement that may not have any immediate wins to motivate people to join.

EDIT: A lot of people objecting to my use of losing so I'll explain more, all of these causes benefit from popularity and are weakened by there lack of adoption and are thus in direct competition with the capitalist consumerist mono-culture, a competition which they are currently losing.

Socialism on a small scale cannot solve the inherent issues of a capitalism that surrounds it.
Veganism benefits from more people becoming vegan and restaurants and grocery stores providing vegan options.
FOSS, or more specifically desktop Linux, benefits from more people being on it and software developers designing for and maintaining applications for it.
The more people that use transit, the more funding it gets and the better it gets.
the fediverse benefits from more people veing on it and more diverse communities so those with niche interests besides the above causes can find community here.

On the flip side the capitalist consumerist alternatives to all of these benefit from there popularity and thus offer a better value to most people. The question is about what made you defer that better immediate material value in favor of something else.

87 comments

I feel like you're missing the point a bit. Living by values you hold dear is not losing, winning or even necessarily a cause. If your values happen to align with a cause, then supporting it in a way you can is at least somewhat fulfilling.
Now, there are definitely people who join a cause for tangential reasons. For example because they are a vehicle to what they want, such as someone who wants to build and use explosives can just as easily become a fundamentalist, anarchist or fascist. (And history has examples of these sordid folks.) They barely care about any of the causes and will drift wherever they can live by their own values, even if it's about blowing shit up.

I disagree with the notion that these are "losing causes."
Socialism is necessary. Not only is the largest economy in the world by PPP a socialist country, and is using it to dramatic effect, capitalism and by extension imperialism are dying systems that have no future. Despite governing more of the world, capitalism is in decay, and is thus the "losing side."
Veganism is ethically correct. Not only is animal liberation a valuable pursuit, but it has far lower of an environmental impact. It isn't a "side," it's the correct conclusion.
FOSS isn't losing, it doesn't need mass adoption because it doesn't need profit. FOSS is growing though.
Anti-car urbanism is improving, socialist countries like the PRC are building huge amounts of effective urban transit. Between the car centric society of today and the urbanist future we desire, there is a transitional period marked by electrification and building up urban transit.
Lemmy/fediverse is healthy and stable, and already does what it needs to: provide an alternative for those who want one.
At the end of the day, framing movements as "winning" or "losing" purely on adoption rates is an error. What is important is trajectory and the material basis for transitioning from the present state of things to the next, ie how do the problems of today make the solutions of tomorrow physically compelled? For socialism, it is the decay of capitalism due to its inevitable contradictions, as well as capitalism's centralization making public ownership and planning in a post-capitalist society remarkably effective. How does that apply to others?

My dear friend, my entire life is a losing cause. :)

I've been vegan foss-using anti war anarchist since high school, once I figure out what's right social pressure doesn't particularly sway me. In addition to all of the above I'm trans and still mask too.
I can't really point to anything in particular that "switched" other than legitimately not caring about fitting in.

Many of the things you mentioned are not "loosing". They are chugging along. Slow and steady.
- It's frustrating how slowly things are going (urbanism at least had the excuse of involving expensive physical infrastructure that turns over on the span of decades) but Lemmy didn't exist 5 years ago and now we have piefed and enough activity that it's nit a ghost town anymore too. After enough cycles of Yet another corpo hellsite we'll hit critical mass

Because I'd rather be right than win. Nice to be both, but the former is a higher priority for me.
- This answer goes hard. I guess stubbornness is needed in some cases.

I want to live in a better world. You can't change the world (win) by giving up. You can't change the status quo easily and I can't live with myself if I do nothing.
I don't think of them as "losing causes". While it's important to be realistic about the current state of your cause, framing it this way assumes they have already and permanently lost, so nothing can ever change. Assuming a mindset of defeatism is demoralizing even if it is only in the language you use.

Morality and ethical behavior are not defined by popularity

I don't agree with causes to win. I agree with causes because they're correct. If everyone stopped believing in gravity I wouldn't follow suit.

I still object to your definition of losing. Ethics diets are on the rise, and if Linux became less popular at any point that's new information to me. I'd say we're underdogs but things are going well.
As for actually answering, I think I just have a weird attachment to abstract conceptual correctness. Or rather, other people don't seem to, and that's why they can ignore things like animal welfare and creepy digital mega-corporations even if they know, on some level, that it's inconsistent with their stated priorities and values.

1: Because it's historically been the nature of these causes that they're losing right up until the moment they win. Seems impossible till it's done, journey of a thousand miles, single step and all that.
2: pure spite towards the smug, arrogant and cruel status quo supporters. I will.never give them the satisfaction of falling into despair, from hell's heart I stab at them
- Because it’s historically been the nature of these causes that they’re losing right up until the moment they win. Seems impossible till it’s done, journey of a thousand miles, single step and all that.
  That's survivor bias. Sometimes it goes like that, but in the vast majority of cases you just lose. This narrative is toxic because it keeps people stuck into an anti-strategic mindset, turning politics into morality and making all of us worse off.
  
  No, it really is just the nature of socialist struggle that you're getting stomped on for the first 90% of it. Every successful revolution started from some of the worst and most squalid conditions with the worst odds imaginable: illiterate, starving, under the thumb of theocrats and warlords, war-torn, hyperexploited. You seem to think I said that bad situations always and inevitably lead to victory, which...???. History is pretty clear about the conditions that need to be met for success, and they're not "moral" ones.

There are no lost causes, just struggles you don't face.

I know you phrased it as "losing" here, but it still made me think of that moment in Firefly when somebody refers to Mal having fought on the wrong side in a battle, and he says "May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."
When a person has convictions and is put at a certain sort of fork in the road, they would rather do anything else before ever seeing themselves transform into the sort of person who would take one of those paths. Some would sell their souls to survive, and some know that their cause is worth several times more than their souls are worth, and the bill comes due at some point.
A society grows great when old men plant trees whose shade they know they shall never sit in.
- I think you nailed it with the Firefly quote. I’ve always loved that one.
  Even if our movements don’t succeed, I want to be able to say that I did my part and didn’t go down without a fight.

I don’t really understand why you think a lot of these things are losing causes. FOSS is the backbone of IT. Anti-car urbanism is common in some areas of the world. Lemmy and the Fediverse have been doing great over the last 2 years. Socialism/leftist ideology is on the rise alongside the fascist takeover—it would have been unheard of to have “the squad” in the 90’s.
So where you see losing, I see slow and steady progress happening alongside capitalist fascism that is trying and failing to stop it completely.
- The part that gets me is why it's slow. I figured it out, what's taking everyone else so long?
  
  Because you live in a bubble and your needs are not the needs of the vast majority of human on Earth. Also change is not a matter of opinions or conscience, it's a matter of organizing and building power. Most people can agree on a topic without anything changing.
- FOSS is the backbone of IT
  FOSS is the backbone of a mlitiary-corporate monstrous machine of death and exploitation. I get that originally the movement was more concerned with the freedom of software than the freedom of people, but I would say "FOSS being a force for good" is definitely a battle that was lost.

- thanks, johnny silverhand.
- I wouldn't say Palestine is a losing cause. All the ones I listed are minoritarian, some in the low single digit percentage of people, especially in the US. A majority of people in the US and a large majority of the world want a ceasefire. It's not failing due to lack of popular support, its failimg because a small minority of very powerful people really want this genocide.
  
  A majority of people in the US and a large majority of the world want a ceasefire.
  That is only a very recent development though. And "a ceasefire" is very different to an actual free Palestine anyway

The saying is "if you build it, they will come," not "if a couple million people want an alternative enough, one will materialize out of thin air"

because the alternatives are unconscionable. Consumerist capitalist mono-culture is going to eat its own tail and kill everyone in the process.
I do think theory is a very good way to recruit people. When the facts are presented fairly, rational people will not choose capitalism.
- In my experience, rationality plays very little in deciding between socialism and capitalism, no matter how fairly the facts are presented. Ultimately, people license themselves to follow narratives their material conditions shape them to, those who believe capitalism is superior do so because they believe they benefit from it. I recommend reasing Masses, Elites, and Rebels: The Theory of "Brainwashing."
  
  this is true if you're analyzing people who have already wholeheartedly and consciously accepted the ruling ideology. but when they haven't, it kind of doesn't apply. propaganda can entice people to disregard their rationality when they materially benefit from believing it. but it doesn't mean rationality plays no part in it.
  It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.

It's the right cause, and if enough people join it won't be losing anymore.

When debating the efficacy of my privacy measures, my friend asked,
You know, what if it just is compromised already? By the NSA, Facebook, Google, and so forth.
And I said, at least I am making it known that I hate them all, I'll stand up for what is right, and I'm not leaving without a fight.

Because I was raised on media that glorified the plight of the underdog, beset against on all sides by powerful forces. And my grandpa told me "The hardest things in life are the things most worth doing."

I want to walk away from Omelas.

I follow my conscience, and I work hard to live up to my principles. If I didn't, I would have a hard time living with myself.

I think you're treating all these mostly unrelated initiatives as an "ideology" in itself and not just things people are interested in.
On the flip side the capitalist consumerist alternatives to all of these benefit from there popularity and thus offer a better value to most people. The question is about what made you defer that better immediate material value in favor of something else.
What makes you think a given person prefers the capitalist options? There are plenty of reasons to like all of these things which is why some people do.
Socialism on a small scale cannot solve the inherent issues of a capitalism that surrounds it.
No, but socialist countries are routinely sheltered from the capitalist driven cataclysms due to their control of the economy. Look at how much China was affected by the 2008 crisis vs Western countries.
Also, socialism in places like Canada necessarily means decolonization of both the Indigenous peoples here and ending our corporate exploitation of both people abroad and Canadians. If that's not a reason to support it I don't know what is.
Veganism benefits from more people becoming vegan and restaurants and grocery stores providing vegan options.
The WHOLE DAMN POINT of veganism is to get rid of a luxury (animal products) because you think it's unethical. Vegans are not bothered by restaurants not catering to them because they simply won't go.
Also, grocery stores providing grocery options? Ah yes the flop of the vegan tomato left the vegan community reeling. What are you buying at the grocery store of all places that you don't think it's always been possible to be vegan? You know you can just buy plants and make your own food right?
FOSS, or more specifically desktop Linux, benefits from more people being on it and software developers designing for and maintaining applications for it.
Linux is measurably more efficient. Like seriously compare the background resource usage of Linux to Windows, Linux can be up to twice as light giving you more resources for your actual applications. Linux is also a lot more private which a lot of people care about over the convenience of a mainstream big tech OS.
Also, the simplicity and dare I say "non-technical user unfriendliness" of Linux is also a draw for technical users who don't want their computer coddling them. It's a niche for a reason.
the fediverse benefits from more people veing on it and more diverse communities so those with niche interests besides the above causes can find community here.
Can you elaborate on this one? I don't know what it means.
- What makes you think a given person prefers the capitalist options?
  The fact that they vast majority of people choose the capitalist option. You could chalk some of it up to lack of awareness, but even those that are aware still tend to go for the default capitalist option. Out of every normal person you've explained Linux to in real life, how many do you think made the switch? Yes individuals may choose them but the vast majority of normal people aren't.
  vegans are not bothered by restaurants not catering to them because they simply won't go
  Speak for yourself, I'm a vegetarian and often get annoyed by the lack of options, and that's in a very liberal city. Not everyone has your same moral conviction, my girlfriend is a vegetarian too but will eat meat if it's the only option on the menu. You can say she's a fake vegetarian or doesn't truly believe in the welfare of animals, but she still cares a hell of a lot more than your average person, so if she's is still occasionally eating meat then your never going to get rid of animal products for the average person who doesn't give two shits about animal welfare.
  The fact is the more good vegan options there are the more people will be vegan, or at least partially vegan. Most people value taste and there food preferences more then animal welfare, environment etc. But if there's an item on the menu that is tasty and they prefer and its vegan then they'll choose it, and that's a win. But most chefs aren't putting there time into making a variety of tasty vegan food because the markets not there. Yes there are people with a higher moral conviction that value welfare over taste but that is a slim minority who won't be able to stop all the abuse the industry causes.
  Also you don't always select where you go to dinner, a lot of times the friends or family your going to dinner with will select it. Some are kind and will check the menu for options but a lot of the time they can forget and just pick one. Am I supposed to not go to dinner after my cousins graduation because it's at a steakhouse?
  Can you elaborate on this one?
  A platform like this benefits from having more and more diverse communities to keep people engaged. Lemmy, as it stands right now, only has a couple broad communities, mostly about these causes I mentioned: FOSS, socialism, etc. If your not interested in those communities at all you probably won't find lemmy very valuable. Even if you are somewhat interested in those things you may still stay on reddit because it has the other communities your interested in along with those that are on lemmy. This is especially true for niche interests but even some broader interests like sports in general are completely absent from lemmy. This is self fulfilling to a certain extent, as less people talk about sports, less people post about sports, less people come here for sports etc. So for a person who wants a feed of say 50% socialist memes and 50% baseball they're gonna go to reddit because they can get that, even if the socialist memes and discussion is better over here, now we're missing out on that person's discussion in the socialist meme communities and that's a loss for everyone in that community.

Because I’m right.

Hope that the work we do will over time become the shade of a tree our grandkids will be able to enjoy.

I learned about them, liked them, changed my views (if I had to) to reflect what I've learned.

I think the interesting thing about the US is that its propaganda sews the seeds for eventual dissent. It runs on ideals about freedom, democracy, equality, individualism, progress, prosperity, etc. The national mythology isn’t “fuck all the poor people.” The trouble is, the US isn’t any of these things. It just makes it hard to recognize that or what the alternatives are. So I wouldn’t say I moved along the political spectrum as much as I slowly started to notice that I wasn’t where I thought I was. You grow up seeing Obama go from “Hope and Change” to continuing to do all the wars, torture, and spying… it makes you realize “hey I don’t think these people were being honest about sharing my values.” And it’s just a long, slow trip from there to figuring out what movements actually represent your politics.
- America as it stands is toast. The ship's hit the iceburg. Change is coming sooner or later because it's visably broken
- Well said!!

Pay attention to an individual's definition of "win" condition.
I define a "win" for FOSS on a very small, individual scale. I do not define it as widescale adoption by others. If I successfully replace a proprietary service with a FOSS service for my personal usage, that's a win. The only "lost cause" re FOSS to me is a FOSS service shutting or being so complicated to implement and maintain that I have to revert to the google service or whatever.
Similar on veganism, a win is me personally making a step improvement on diet, not contingent on shuttering commercial meat production.

I sincerely believe that none of these are losing. In fact I suspect in the future the current "winning" sides will be viewed as inexplicable barbarism, the same way that making sacrifices for good harvests would be viewed today.

lol FOSS is winning, if you're paying $20/month/seat for every calculator app that you might use once, you're probably the looser.

At this point, being on this planet is a losing cause.
I strongly disagree that unpopular things are automatically a losing cause though. I use and do some unpopular things because it's more ethical or more beneficial overall, but I'm not at all troubled with it. I just try to be a somewhat decent citizen where many others would just be like "lol I don't care about any consequences, just give me the cheapest or most convenient option". I'm not like that. And I think more people shouldn't be. But, again, at this point... it's definitely a losing battle. But I still do it because then I can tell myself that I at least tried to do the somewhat right thing. It's kind of just to have a clean conscience, whereas some others are completely fine burning the world for their own short-term gain. That's basically the difference.

Maybe I wouldn't consider them losing causes, since we have our small wins here and there. Every positive difference you make, is rewarding when it amounts even to the tiniest win. You posting this question and other Lemmings like me answering is itself a little Lemmy W.
But yeah, things for me don't have value only because they are popular. Yes, popularity can affect that I get recommended stuff that I end up liking, but I consciously reject being told to like something without being aware of the full details.
Here's some contrasting examples: PEAK is a game I got on the bandwagon for, after seeing it posted on GamingOnLinux via !pcgaming@lemmy.ca . Seeing the gameplay, it looked like fun, and I had friends to play it with so it was worthwhile. On the other hand, trends like Stanley Cup, blindbox toys like Labubu, "Dubai Chocolate", I'm not going to get any of those, despite their explosive popularity, unless I see a legitimate use for my own needs.
Also, my values are set towards lasting ownership of stuff then renting/BNPL schemes.

I wouldn't really consider any of those 'losing causes.'
None of us have a crystal ball and know what the future will bring.

The world is fucked and nobody is going to win, all causes are losing causes. I might as well pick one that align with my principles so I die with some dignity

It's not a losing cause if it's growing
- The last 30 years of activism prove you quite wrong
  
  But those are all growing. Get out of the corpo mindset where you have to dominate in X years or run out of runway or crash

Sir or Madam, I'm a fan of the Cleveland Guardians and the Columbus Blue Jackets. Both of those are losing causes and will probably be forever.

Most of the causes you list are not defined by losing so idek what this is asking

I'm adopting FOSS because commercial products are inevitably enshitified for profit. Fuck the billionaires, I like my money and my personal data and I am not ok with them putting their grubby, sticky little fingers in my personal shit. I was raised a private person and I like my privacy.
I'm not vegan but I reduced my red and pork to 0 because it's unhealthy and I don't really like eating things for breakfast that are as smart as small children. Ew.
I fucking hate cars and always have. They smell bad, they're expensive, they take up huge amounts of time, and idiots on a power trip are always being assholes in them. Coal rolling trucks make me want to puke in disgust. It's always a guy and he's always a dropout moron on a power trip who's gonna die of lung cancer at 56 while complaining about chemtrails.
Socialism is necessary because capitalism promotes the tragedy of the commons and I like my clean air and drinkable water. I grew up on stories about the wilderness, I lived running around in the woods, I value a healthy ecosystem rich in genetic diversity. I am also an absolutely enormous asshole at heart who is cheap as fuck and who hates litter, and homeless people are untidy, expensive, and dangerous. Sticking them in apartments to keep their shitty decisions out of my view is cheaper than cleaning up their feces all the time and dealing with begging and grabbing and crime, and it makes me able to ignore them more easily. Out of sight, out of mind, I get to live my life in peace knowing they're not homeless anymore. Also their kids don't deserve that shit even if their parents are depressed abusive junkie trash who couldn't keep a job if it was "lay here all day long".

somebody gotta do it

I've always been on the fringes, as a child even, hard science fiction with nobody to discuss with. Making your own decisions based on the best data, changing my mind on data, but not consensus, this were the early memories in my life. The great hard core scifi authors echo this message over and over, really hammer it in.
While these may not be losing causes, they are not mainstream... and in relaxed wisdom of years I realize not being mainstream doesn't mean wrong, but nobody is incentivized to push them. All we know of human history is what survived in writings scattered around, lucky enough to survive the ravages of time... being the crazy guy who writes everything down, makes copies of all their books, has two libraries in different locations... wasn't a popular choice I'm sure, but it was the choice that survived.
Open Source - This is intensely popular, not by sales, but by what survives and gets used for decades. The perfect algorithm locked in a dusty cabinet doesn't advance humanity long term, imperfect open source that echos forward because its open and free does... This is why i think the permissive licenses are for software that will have the biggest impact.
Ketogenic - Very unpopular, fringe and rejected by traditional consensus, but the benefits are actually there.
Lemmy - It's not a losing cause, its just got low marketing... its the only way for open communication to last into the future. If it ain't federated it might as well be written in the sand.

If you manage to convert just one or two others to the cause, it’s a win already. If not, at least you are not part of the problem.
And for many of the things you listed I see a lot of progress compared to even 10 years in the past. Slow but steady.

I assume this I just bait but regardless, describing any of these values as "losing" suggests that for anything to be worth pursuing in life, you must be winning at it. I don't even know what that means. Don't you make choices and spend time doing things because they make you happy or they benefit you or the people around you?

I have kids... so clearly yes.

Well, I was born here and it seemed like the thing to do.

Knowing something's right - yet dying/loosing - doesn't make it not worth it. You might just end up without the thing. But at least you weren't part of its downfall nor responsible. Quite the contrary.
I guess it's that simple. If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.

better to be ~~feared~~ right than ~~loved~~ popular
or something like that

Because it's saving me craploads of money to bike instead of drive. Our city put in protected bike lanes. It's faster and cheaper than driving in traffic in a state with $5.60 gas.

FOSS - Because I have been in it since almost the beginning of my tech career (first Linux was Red Hat Halloween) and in a tangential manner have helped it along in many ways. It's my default.
Veganism - Technically I am an inveg (involuntary vegan). I was pushed into a whole food plant based diet because it turns out I am genetically predisposed to coronary disease and absurdly high levels of cholesterol, arterial plaque, and inflammation. Built to run hard and die young, and I'm all out of young.
Fediverse - I am old enough to remember the old Internet and the Fediverse has a bit of that vibe. This is probably Lemmy leans more Gen-X/Xennial than other platforms.
UBI and other Socialist safeguards - I am a capitalist but I am more so a pragmatist. If we do not ensure the survival, viability of the population and access to the means of success to majority, then the system will collapse and we will all be fucked. Rich, poor and everyone in between. It's just common sense. Rich fucks and politicians are always focused on fast, short term gains and never in longevity and sustained success.
Netrunner CCG - Because it's just the best card game ever made (sorry MtG, but it's true). I buy every new set, even if I don't have anyone to play with anymore.
I have no doubt there are many other lost causes I support or follow that I am blissfully ignorant of their niche status.
EDIT:
Final Space - I pre-ordered the book so I can find out how it ends.
- I was pushed into a whole food plant based diet because it turns out I am genetically predisposed to coronary disease and absurdly high levels of cholesterol, arterial plaque, and inflammation. Built to run hard and die young, and I’m all out of young.
  Have you been keeping a eye on atherosclerosis with imaging like CAC scores?
  
  Oh yes. I even do a full body Pernuvo scan every other year.

I think I was broke at a young age to stand by things I think are true even if I'm liked less. There's definitely something to be said for social cohesion but I already have a lot of issues with hating myself and a lot of things that American society demands of me for social cohesion involve hating myself for more things that are less and less problematic.
So eventually it's just easier to identify with being a "principled" pariah. And then all the pro-social concessions I actually do make are things I can keep to myself to preserve that identity.

Education. Good luck

I'm a hipster.

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