What's up with this straight up pro-china and pro-russia stuff on Lemmy lately?
What's up with this straight up pro-china and pro-russia stuff on Lemmy lately?
It's not even praising the people of China and Russia, but rather their gov directly.
Obviously the states have problems, and the EU to a lesser degree, but they at least have some human rights.
Is this some kind of organized disinformation campaign?
You're viewing a single thread.
Time for the weekly question as to why there are anti-imperialists on the anti-imperialist platform from a redditor who joined less than a month ago
I am so baffled since years that (mostly) americans think if you are against us (or its imperialism) u automatically need to be pro China and vice versa. I really can't get why you guys always need to bootlick one or the other government. Why can't you not fight for a better system, why do u always fight for a better oppressor?!
Really grinds my gears.
The PRC is the better system. It has a socialist market economy, one that works for the people, and doesn't depend on imperialism. China isn't an oppressor. Moreover, it is usually non-westerners that are pro-China, as they are the ones directly experiencing western imperialism and watching China focus on mutual development and cooperation.
You have no reason to reduce the logic of why one would support the PRC down to simply being "anti-west," if you ask anyone pro-China about why they are, we can give you nuanced and complete reasoning for doing so. By caricaturing the argument of those you disagree with, you quite literally strawman them.
The PRC is the better system. [...] Moreover, it is usually non-westerners that are pro-China,
May I ask where your from?
You have no reason to reduce the logic of why one would support the PRC down to simply being "anti-west," if you ask anyone pro-China about why they are, we can give you nuanced and complete reasoning for doing so. By caricaturing the argument of those you disagree with, you quite literally strawman them.
The comment I replied to litterally reduced their support of China to being anti-western opression and implies those are the same thing.
Not a strawman at all
I've stated elsewhere that I'm a USian, I live in the US Empire. That doesn't take away from my points, though, polls on approval of the PRC are much higher in the global south than they are in the global north. I'm in the minority as a supporter of the PRC in the US, and it's largely because I'm a Marxist-Leninist that I am.
Further, no, being anti-imperialist does not mean that is the only reason to support the PRC. You strawmanned their point (correct the pronouns you used).
Yeah have at it.
That's exactly my point. People see their own system is bad, they check that china/real existing socialism is regarded as the opposite to the system they consider bad - they have valid points but also pink-red glasses which makes them overlook problems.
My point is, that we have 3 world powers, China, us and Russia, and ALL of them act in hegemonial fashion.
Yes, us is currently the worst, but NONE of them fight for the working class, ALL of them fight to keep the ones rich, who are rich and the ones powerful, which are powerful in their respective system.
If you consider yourself Marxist Leninist, may read a little more Marx and a little less Lenin. What China does is NOT what Marx sees as communist, it doesn't even hold up to his imagination of socialism.
No, this is deeply unserious. What actually happens is people like me notice the problems surrounding us, read Marx, Engels, Lenin, and other Marxist writers, see what the PRC is managing to achieve thanks to its socialist system, and then learn to check media critically, looking at the sources, motivations, etc in order to actually see what's going on. Then we keep reading theory and try to start organizing. Your characterization of leftists as simply supporting the opposite of what is going on is a mischaracterization, one you have not once provided proof for, yet is your entire argument.
Secondly, only the US is the world hegemon. It is the world's largest empire, and has full control of institutions like NATO and the IMF, which it wields in its favor to secure imperialism. Russia is not a hegemon, it has fallen far from its heights as the Soviet Union. The PRC isn't a hegemon either, it is overtaking the US but it doesn't depend on imperialism, millitary or financial domination.
Russia is capitalist, correct, and the US is too, but they stand at odds due to the US being the world Empire and Russia being encircled by it. In the PRC, the working class is the one in charge!
If you consider yourself Marxist Leninist, may read a little more Marx and a little less Lenin. What China does is NOT what Marx sees as communist, it doesn’t even hold up to his imagination of socialism.
This is absolutely peak western chauvanism, undue superiority and self-confidence while knowing nothing about how much of Marx, Engels, and Lenin I've read. From Marx alone, not at all counting the dozens of other Marxists I have read:
And I am about a third of the way through Capital: Volume 2. You have no idea what I have studied, and think you can just mouth off as though you know what I know better than I do. It's peak western chauvanism. I've elaborated many times elsewhere on China's system, but at its core, the proletariat is in power, and public property is the principle aspect of the economy. The large firms and key industries are publicly owned, and as the medium firms grow the state exerts more control and gradually sublimates them into the public sector. This gradual approach to sublimating property once the dictatorship of the proletariat has been established is right out of the communist manifesto. China is in the early developing stage of socialism, and is continuing to develop and socialize the economy.
For further reading:
Do some reading if you want to use how much we've read as a cudgel.
I'm not who you were replying to before.
I agree that the chinese mixed market model is better, and that the US sucks ass, but I have one question about your claims.
PRC, the working class is the one in charge!
can you explain to me how that can be true while the government is unelected and visibly does authoritarian stuff such as censorship, violent repression of various undesireables and supression of independent worker's unions?
First of all, the state is an extension of the class in power, it isn't a class in and of itself. The class in power is the one in control of the large firms and key industries, in the PRC these are publicly owned. This can help make sense of the Chinese model of socialism.
With that in mind, the government is elected. It doesn't have the same kind of competing party model of liberal democracy, but socialist democracy is focused on cohesion and cooperation. The government does censor speech, but that isn't incompatible with working class power, the speech that is censored is largely capitalists trying to undermine the system (like Jack Ma). Further, independent worker unions in the context of socialism is dangerous, the government is already one run by the working class, so having a divided working class is more of a way for capitalists to drive a wedge between them and undermine the system.
I think if you read up more on SWCC things will make more sense.
Well, if the class in power is the one who controls the large firms, key industries and media, then the class in power are the high-ranking CCP officials, no? And ccp officials choose who the new ccp officials will be. I don't see how the working class is involved here. I don't really understand how the government is elected.
I don't really want to go read a bunch of theory, because I think you should be able to leverage your clearly extensive knowledge of the subject to convince me.
First of all, the state is an extension of the class in power, it isn’t a class in and of itself.
The CPC is not a class, it's the most politically advanced of the proletariat, largely. CPC officials are elected as well. It isn't fashioned like a liberal democracy, but a socialist one.
I get not wanting to read theory, and I understand needing to meet people where they are at. What's your understanding of the Chinese system of democracy? What distinguishes socialist democracy from liberal democracy? What is a class, in your eyes? If I don't know where you personally stand in your understanding, then I don't really know where to start beyond what I've already shared.
government is unelected and visibly does authoritarian stuff such as censorship, violent repression of various undesireables and supression of independent worker’s unions?
all of these claims are provably false.
The source for those is either you, quora, or the ccp.
Not very reliable sources, and the results of the polls which I do know are legitimate may be explained by the lack of free press.
Some of the stuff is true, like the better healthcare system, or high speed rail, but that's more the US being absymally bad than china being great
If you consider yourself Marxist Leninist, may read a little more Marx and a little less Lenin. What China does is NOT what Marx sees as communist, it doesn’t even hold up to his imagination of socialism.
It does hold up to Marx’s imagination of a “lower phase” of socialism, heading in the direction of higher phases and then ultimately communism. This has been a continuous understand of the necessarily long process among Marxists, because we aren’t utopians imagining a fantastical overnight transformation: https://files.catbox.moe/6n2qll.avif
his
Check pronouns. They/Them.
Thanks :) Sometimes gendering in foreign languages is still hard for me
Your comment reminded me of this Rosa quote:
“The German government‑socialists may shout that the rule of the Bolsheviks is a caricature of the dictatorship of the proletariat. If it was or is, then only for the reason that it is a product of the conduct of the German proletariat, conduct which was a caricature of socialist class struggle.”
I live in the US, I don't see the reason to demonize its enemies on the other side of the planet when my class enemies are right here running the US government and its associated political parties.
I don't see reason to demonize people at all not Americans not Chinese.
We should be in solidarity with everyone from the working class, no matter his or her place of birth.
Fighting for the working class always means fighting against oppressors.
In the historical period we live in us is the worst of them, but that doesn't make other ones good.
Freedom of minorities, press, and assembly are under atack nearly everywhere, in the us in the EU, in China and in Russia - but those are tools the working class needs to build a better system.
Bravo, you checked that the us government system has major flaws, may critically look at there enemies, for they are not even close to the ideals they pretend following.
Demonizing doesn't help, but idolizing also doesn't.
May try to fight for the people, not for the powerfull.
There is no system existing on this planet at the moment which will do that for you. Simping for one or the other oppressor doesn't cut it, even if some are better then others, you need to fight for the people, not the powerful.
The way to fight for the people isn't by going along with 100% of US propaganda about its state enemies.
Do you think that I should be taking a German fundamentalist 'on a mission from god' against china and communism as an authority on the oppression there when he doesn't even speak the language and routinely fabricates evidence?
No?
Edit: don't see your point. Its not like I am citing Donald trump...
I was referring to Adrian zenz, that guy seems to pop up in literally every western accusation about China at this point.
The most recent example being him as a 'fluent' mandarin speaker hearing the word “满勤奖” or 'full attendance award' from a recording in a factory and intentionally misrepresenting it as “Xinjiang.” That was then the basis for then claiming that there was evidence of forced labor in Xinjiang.
Ok.. Not me
You know his work though, quoting you:
You can prove stuff like “capitalism is destroying the ecosystem” or “China masacered the Uigurs”
I found out about Adrian Zenz because he was showing up in every source whenever I tried to look into accusations about how "China masacered the Uigurs"[sic].
Maybe you should look into where information is coming from before citing it as provable fact.
edit: someone even directly replied to you asking you for a source other than him over two years ago
You misquote me -.-
In the mentioned post i was giving examples of verifiable and falsefiable claims.
The point is that those are statements which (given enough time and info) can be proben right of wrong, while statements like "Einstein was wrong" "stalin was right" are not, because they are too broad and don't have a definitive and absolute binary "true" or "false" category.
This discussion is a waste of time
You gave that as an example of a provable claim. We can clearly see proof of 'Israel' massacring Palestinians, and have had new evidence appearing every day of the occupation.
Do you have any proof of your claim that doesn't come exclusively filtered through a right wing fundamentalist?
Its not like I am citing Donald trump…
Who are you citing then? Which accusations from the West against China do you not believe? Are there any?
