What's up with this straight up pro-china and pro-russia stuff on Lemmy lately?
What's up with this straight up pro-china and pro-russia stuff on Lemmy lately?
It's not even praising the people of China and Russia, but rather their gov directly.
Obviously the states have problems, and the EU to a lesser degree, but they at least have some human rights.
Is this some kind of organized disinformation campaign?
OP was banned from Memes@lemmy.ml for trying to push the "Chinese spy balloons" thing and posted this thread to cry about it.
Lol, OP is mad they got their post removed for claiming that Covid was a Chinese bioweapon.
Others have given great answers, but the short-answer is that it's not a "disinformation campaign," nor is it organized. It's because Lemmy has a lot of leftists, especially Marxist-Leninists, and MLs both support AES ("Actually Existing Socialism"), like the PRC, and critically support capitalist countries forced into allying with them against the Global North's imperialism.
In terms of their net impacts on the world, the US and EU far outweigh the evils of Russia. Russia is certainly flawed, but unlike the US and EU Russia doesn't rely on expropriating vast amounts of wealth from the Global South, sanctioning, couping, or genociding those who go against imperialism. It isn't because Russia is some moral paragon, but because they simply lack the means to be imperialist, they are boxxed in by the west and lack the financial capital to rely on expropriation of wealth.
As for the PRC, it gets far more support, because it's the leading socialist country. 800 million people were lifted from poverty, and it's rapidly improving. Even when the west runs propaganda against them, like the COVID lab leak theory or the Chinese spy balloon hysteria, the PRC is being widely supported by the Global South as the PRC is providing a genuine alternative to the genocidal west.
If you (or anyone else) want an introduction to Marxism-Leninism, here's my Read Theory, Darn It! introductory reading guide!
Russia is literally conducting an imperialist invasion of Ukraine right now...
I can't stand this shit when fake leftists defend authoritarian, imperialist states because they oppose the west.
Just because Russia "opposes" the west doesn't make it any better than them.
Russia is literally conducting an imperialist invasion of Ukraine right now...
The most prolific invader in the world - NATO - did a coup in Ukraine, tried to bring weapons and personnel to Russia's most important border near Russia's most populated parts, and has been conducting terror attacks against the Russian population.
The rest of the world has every right to defend against NATO, so you either have a good explanation for what else Russia could have done in this regard, or your criticism of Russia is not serious.
Just because Russia "opposes" the west doesn't make it any better than them.
The fact that Russia hasn't done anything nearly as bad as things like the invasion of Iraq - let alone the genocide of Palestine - does make Russia better.
The Russo-Ukrainian War is about forcing Ukraine to be neutral to NATO, and resolving the conflict between Kiev and the Donetsk and Luhanks People's Republics that requested Russian support after the Minsk agreements fell through due to Ukraine failing to keep up their end of the bargain. It isn't an imperialist war, the goal is not expropriation of wealth, it's to keep NATO out of the main path by which Russia has historically been invaded from the ground, such as in World War II by Nazi Germany.
Russia is not worthy of critical support just because "west bad." Russia can't imperialize countries like the west has. It tried, back when Putin requested to join NATO 2 decades ago, but Russia was denied because the Nationalists in Russia didn't want to open their markets up to foreign plunder like in the 90s. As a consequence, Russia is forced to ally with the anti-imperialist countries, largely made up of countries in the Global South and socialist countries. The Sahel States, for example, are turning to Russia and the PRC as an alternative to western plunder, because Russia physically cannot imperialize in the same way the west does. It fundamentally lacks the ability to export vast amounts of capital and outsource production.
If you're going to call leftists "fake," then you should at least do the due dilligence to familiarize yourself with the Marxist analysis of imperialism.
As a Chinese person it's actually really refreshing to not be inundated with western propaganda. Here's some examples that come to mind:
The US quietly admitting the "Spy Balloon" did no spying several months and millions of dollars later.
People are actually moving into "ghost cities" as it pre-emptively neutralized a housing crisis before it began
China's social credit system is actually extremely benign and fragmented while aiming to target businesses and businessmen, tracking bankruptcies, scams and reneged deals and so on.
But you'll get people too propagandized to accept truth even if, for example, all the sources you provide are from reliable Western media
China is literally the only hope humanity has to survive climate change at this point and if you're not aware of that you're ignorant, sorry
Don't want to start an argument, genuinely asking, how is china the "only hope"? If we look at certain european countries, or even canada, brazil or the drc, they run on a much larger percentage of renewables than china. China is still running 60% coal.
As for tech, china does have a lead in many technologies, but it's not like they're the only ones that can make good products in those categories.
I have literally never in my life heard of a country make an ambitious climate goal and then actually achieve it other than china. China is the only country actually investing substantial money into all that renewable energy research while western countries cling to fossil fuel profits (almost like capitalism affords incredibly wealthy oil companies inordinate political and economic authority, huh).
There's literally a fucking meme of California vs China talking about high speed rail, after like 20 years California had built shit and China's built over 25000 miles of it. I'm pretty sure here in present year that's 46000 miles of it.
China is stockpiling resources and building infrastructure to plan for the absolute devastation that is going to be wrought on human society over the next few decades. What the fuck has literally anyone else done? If any country in earth is going to be resilient enough to weather the crop failures and super storms we're destined for and, god fucking i hope, be in a position to help anyone else (and with an ideological basis that would impel them to without expecting a century of debt bondage in return) it's going to be China.
Time for the weekly question as to why there are anti-imperialists on the anti-imperialist platform from a redditor who joined less than a month ago
I am so baffled since years that (mostly) americans think if you are against us (or its imperialism) u automatically need to be pro China and vice versa. I really can't get why you guys always need to bootlick one or the other government. Why can't you not fight for a better system, why do u always fight for a better oppressor?!
Really grinds my gears.
The PRC is the better system. It has a socialist market economy, one that works for the people, and doesn't depend on imperialism. China isn't an oppressor. Moreover, it is usually non-westerners that are pro-China, as they are the ones directly experiencing western imperialism and watching China focus on mutual development and cooperation.
You have no reason to reduce the logic of why one would support the PRC down to simply being "anti-west," if you ask anyone pro-China about why they are, we can give you nuanced and complete reasoning for doing so. By caricaturing the argument of those you disagree with, you quite literally strawman them.
Your comment reminded me of this Rosa quote:
“The German government‑socialists may shout that the rule of the Bolsheviks is a caricature of the dictatorship of the proletariat. If it was or is, then only for the reason that it is a product of the conduct of the German proletariat, conduct which was a caricature of socialist class struggle.”
I live in the US, I don't see the reason to demonize its enemies on the other side of the planet when my class enemies are right here running the US government and its associated political parties.
"Was I brainwashed by Western propaganda?"
"No, only shithole commie countries like China have propaganda"
In a very simplified answer: China and Russia (as well as Iran) never made any thinly-veiled threats of turning my hometown of Johannesburg into the next Gaza.
lmfao hooman rights is when you do genocide and jail people protesting it
Given the political leanings of Lemmy's lead developers, and relatedly the whole reason why Lemmy started development in the first place, it should not be surprising to anyone that many Lemmy users have since the very beginning of Lemmy's existence had stances that could be called, in a word, "pro-Russia" or "pro-China".
The problem arises when people who don't hold these views look at them only through their own myopic biases, where, rather than genuinely interrogating why people might hold these attitudes, they instead more readily believe that a social media platform that most people have never even heard of is actually crawling with paid actors trying to influence public opinion.
No, to understand my own views on Russia, you need to understand my views on Atlanticism; to understand my views on Atlanticism, you need to understand my views on class, among other things. None of that comes across clearly in a one-liner or a four-panel meme. I'm sure I could discuss it in a more fitting space provided I'm not too drained of energy from having stayed up until five in the morning for the umpteenth time.
What’s up with this straight up pro-china and pro-russia stuff on Lemmy lately?
🌍🧑🚀🔫🧑🚀 Always has been. https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Lemmy#History
Obviously the states have problems, and the EU to a lesser degree, but they at least have some human rights.
The EU is sometimes worse than China and some parts of the US are often worse than Russia. The US (both parties) and the EU have been aiding & abetting a genocide in Palestine.
Is this some kind of organized disinformation campaign?
It’s not organized and it’s not disinformation. Those are coming from inside the house.
.
Wikipedia is not a source.
We’re doing this again?
The PRC needs to stop comitting atrocities against the Uyghur and other Turkic muslims
Good thing China wasn’t and isn’t doing that, unless you consider jailing of US-backed radical Salafi terrorists to be an atrocity.
- https://lemmy.ml/comment/18748811
- https://lemmy.ml/comment/14839342
- https://lemmy.ml/comment/18270034
and Tibettans
I’m pretty sure virtually all of the Tibetan people are happy to no longer be suffering under theocratic feudalism. Happy to no longer be illiterate serfs and slaves living in depredation under a god-king. I doubt many of them are sad that CIA asset Dalai “suck my tongue” Lama is in exile.[1]
and stop brutalising and denying political self determination to the people of Hong Kong
The UK’s 99 year lease to subjugate the people of Hong Kong ended, a lease which had been forced upon Imperial China at gunpoint during the century of humiliation. Hong Kong reintegration after the lease expired was a foregone conclusion. The last minute, US-backed attempt at color revolution failed. It was the so-called “revolutionaries” who brought the brutality, by the way.
irrelevant tangents
How people in the imperial core are propagandized is not an irrelevant tangent.
You accept Five Eyes corporate media uncritically because you don’t understand media, which I tried to explain, but you decided that it was an irrelevant tangent.
you don't honestly engage at all
I don’t have all day; I’ll address two.
Xinjiang/The Uyghurs
The US tried to foment division in China by funding and organizing terrorist cells in Xinjiang, and once those efforts failed, it concocted and promoted a genocide narrative. Antony Blinken is still pushing this slop, just a few weeks ago.
- The Xinjiang Genocide Allegations Are Unjustified
- The Uyghur Human Rights Project is a product of the National Endowment for Democracy, which is the American government’s main regime change NGO.
- Uyghur genocide allegations
- American Debunks All Major Western Propaganda on Uyghurs and Xinjiang
- US-Funded Uyghur Activists Train as Soldiers of Empire
- A Reddit AMA Claiming To Be A Uyghur Quickly Exposes A CIA Asset Slandering China
.
The blueprint of regime change operationsWe see here for example the evolution of public opinion in regards to China. In 2019, the ‘Uyghur genocide’ was broken by the media (Buzzfeed, of all outlets). In this story, we saw the machine I described up until now move in real time. Suddenly, newspapers, TV, websites were all flooded with stories about the ‘genocide’, all day, every day. People whom we’d never heard of before were brought in as experts — Adrian Zenz, to name just one; a man who does not even speak a word of Chinese.
Organizations were suddenly becoming very active and important. The World Uyghur Congress, a very serious-sounding NGO, is actually an NED Front operating out of Germany […]. From their official website, they declare themselves to be the sole legitimate representative of all Uyghurs — presumably not having asked Uyghurs in Xinjiang what they thought about that.
The WUC also has ties to the Grey Wolves, a fascist paramilitary group in Turkey, through the father of their founder, Isa Yusuf Alptekin.
Documents came out from NGOs to further legitimize the media reporting. This is how a report from the very professional-sounding China Human Rights Defenders (CHRD) came to exist. They claimed ‘up to 1.3 million’ Uyghurs were imprisoned in camps. What they didn’t say was how they got this number: they interviewed a total of 10 people from rural Xinjiang and asked them to estimate how many people might have been taken away. They then extrapolated the guesstimates they got and arrived at the 1.3 million figure.
Sanctions were enacted against China — Xinjiang cotton for example had trouble finding buyers after Western companies were pressured into boycotting it. Instead of helping fight against the purported genocide, this act actually made life more difficult for the people of Xinjiang who depend on this trade for their livelihood (as we all do depend on our skills to make a livelihood).
Any attempt China made to defend itself was met with more suspicion. They invited a UN delegation which was blocked by the US. The delegation eventually made it there, but three years later. The Arab League also visited Xinjiang and actually commended China on their policies — aimed at reducing terrorism through education and social integration, not through bombing like we tend to do in the West.
Tiananmen riots
- The Tian’anmen Square ‘Massacre’: The West’s Most Persuasive, Most Pervasive Lie.
- 1989 Tian'anmen Square riots
- A Note on the Tiananmen Protests
- Images from Tiananmen 1989 the West never shows (NSFW / CW: violence and death)
- Tank Man video footage. Tiananmen Square, Beijing, 1989
- How psy-ops warriors fooled me about Tiananmen Square: a warning
It’s not a football match. You don’t have to pick a side and defend it no matter what.
It’s not; I’m not; and neither do you.
Edit to add: I’m certainly not picking “our” side. I mean, have you seen our side? The side that’s providing political and material support for an actual genocide as we speak?
- List of Atrocities committed by US authorities
- A Detailed Chronological List of US Interventions, Invasions, Destabilzations, and Assistance to Oppressive Regimes (ending in 2002)
- The U.S. Did Not Defeat Fascism in WWII, It Discretely Internationalized It
- Shock therapy (economics)
- World Incarceration Rates If Every U.S. State Were A Country
- Infographic: US military presence around the world The US controls about 750 bases in at least 80 countries worldwide and spends more on its military than the next 10 countries combined.
- Are We The Baddies?
- Michael Parenti: Africa is Rich
While the support to Israel is undeniable and the EU members supported the US in unnecessary wars multiple times, it’s hard to read “the EU is sometimes worse than China” without questioning what you are talking about.
"While it's true that EU has and continues to do things far worse than anything China has done, how can you possibly say that the EU is sometimes worse than China!"
Its impossible to read this without coming to conclusion that you fundamentally don't consider non-westerners human, except when they can be used as a cudgel against their enemies. Imagine trying to claim that we should consider China's treatment of Muslims worse than the countries currently engaging in a modern Holocaust against Muslims.
And Tiananmen Square was forty years ago. If you actually listened all of the things that the EU has done since then that were as bad or worse, you would be writing a novel. You would need to have a Tiananmen square massacre every day for a decade just to equal the amount of people the West killed in Iraq alone.
Evil china and evil russia have never done anything to my country while the US and Europe did and continue to do so, is that clear enough?
Obviously the states have problems, and the EU to a lesser degree, but they at least have some human rights.
Excuse me? The US treats my people like animals and you want to bring human rights into the picture?
ok but have you considered chinese imperialism!!! they're invading the world with cheaper, better and faster smartphones and ethically made synthetic diamonds that are materially indistinguishable from the diamonds mined by slaves owned by the west and various renewable energy tech that will absolutely be used to steal solar energy from countries investing in it and definitely not help countries divert away from broken-down non-renewable energy infrastructure depedent on Western private companies to "maintain"!!
don't you get me started on russian imperialism.. You don't wanna get me started!
Short answer: Many people support those governments critically or uncritically for various reasons.
Long answer:
Russia: Some people who oppose US hegemony support Russia as probably the most effective anti-US actor globally - I mean look at what they've managed (in part) to do to the US government over the last 10 years or so. They may also be sympathetic to Russian anti-NATO sentiment. People who support China may also critically support Russia since they are a strategic ally of China. Some people just full-throatedly support Russia uncritically - I don't know why they're quite so enthusiastic, but most others who have pro-Russian sentiment are still critical of Russia, but support them as a major power capable of attacking US hegemony.
China: China is the most successful communist country to have ever existed. Many left-leaning people may support China to varying degrees because they are an Actually Existing Socialist country and because their model of Communism with Chinese Characteristics seems to work quite well for them. Due to the West (broadly) attacking Socialist governments in the name of Liberalism & becoming increasingly more fascistic, China could be an important bulwark against fascism. Many people support China uncritically - they genuinely like the Chinese system of government and want their governments to be more like China's. Other people critically support China - they believe China's government is problematic in some way(s), but support it anyway as a bastion of socialism and a significant challenger to US economic & political hegemony.
As for support for the governments as opposed to the people: We kind of have to talk about these things at the country level, since governments are the (imperfect) embodiments of political ideologies and collectively act on behalf of the people within their borders, and "the people" aren't monolithic. We often treat countries as avatars of political ideologies which is inaccurate but is an abstraction that unfortunately often leads to an oversimplification of the ideologies behind & effects of those governments' actions while allowing us to create a comprehensible narrative.
I'm currently working in the Middle East and speaking for myself, I'm less worried about dying brutally to a bombing campaign by China than I am by my own government, so that certainly plays a role.
I think if the government put some effort towards PR by making some superficial gestures such as not invading other countries or overthrowing their governments it would certainly help improve our image abroad and I could stop pretending I'm British.
What we really need is to convince the global South that NOT being bombed by China is actually an evil orientalist plot to subvert our kindly brutality.
It's getting very exhausting telling the locals "Oy yoo lot ain't neva seen 'ow 'orrible dem Choinese ca' be! Would yoo be preferrin' youse country, yeah? Would youse be preferrin' yoo be in one a dem 'orrifying debt traps, or would youse be preferrin', yeah? A noice Gaaza remodelin', yeah? Oi think tha choice is an easy one, yeah? Dem Choinese don' seem so noice now, do they?"
Speaking like a Brit makes my mouth hurt; no wonder they're so miserable.
Some good answers already here, but I can only answer for myself: I used to be that kind of leftist that was "Well I want socialism, but not like those scary foreign authoritarian countries. They're doing it wrong! Or that's not really socialism!" At some point after learning more history and talking with others online, I've softened my view on these places. Some of that is learning that some of what I knew about them was straight up misinformation, but some of it comes from a shift in perspective: These aren't abstract ideals of countries. They're real countries. With real people, real histories, real material conditions, real geopolitical relationships to deal with, etc. They're doing something really difficult and it's really easy to be an armchair quarterback while sitting cozy in the US where I don't have to deal with any of their tough decisions or the consequences of them. Am I happy with them doing some authoritarian policies? No. But maybe they're necessary to deal with the interference of the US? I don't know for sure if that's the best approach, but I don't have to imagine the counterexample of what it looks like if you don't take defensive measures, the US has helpfully provided a bunch in the form of all of the countries they've backed coups in for the crime of electing even a slightly leftist government. We could squabble about better ways to deal with this, but neither of us has the full context to have an educated discussion on the matter. Also for the genuinely bad stuff, I wouldn't go as far as specifically supporting those things, but it's worth putting them in perspective. You can't talk about China online without someone bringing up Tienanmen Square, meanwhile the US has been a never-ending avalanche of evil in it's short history, but you can talk about any number of things not related to politics in the US without a random leftist wandering into the discussion about the latest hollywood movie shouting the entire lyrics to "We Didn't Start the Fire." I mean we're happy to bring all that stuff up if it's in the right context, but people are so deranged about communist countries that the ONLY thing they can think to bring up in relation to them is their less savory moments that may or may not even be true/exaggerated.
It's really hard to sort good information from bad about these places because there's so much propaganda. I get that those other countries have an incentive to put out their own propaganda, but it's hard for me to know what their reach is or what their motivations are or how much they are lying vs countering US misinfo. Meanwhile I KNOW the US has a fairly sophisticated system of propaganda spanning government agencies, media companies, NGOs, etc. I KNOW the US is motivated to prop up the interests of capitalists and try to stop other countries from pushing back against them. A lot of the bad shit and lies the US has done is just straight up declassified history. So I'm sorry if I'm a little skeptical about what the empire that's made it it's business to deny self-determination to countries around the world has to say about those countries.
As for Russia, I'm not specifically a supporter. Ever since the USSR collapsed they've been another capitalist, imperialist country. But in terms of scale they're just not even remotely comparable to the US. They are at worst a regional power and outside of nukes can't really threaten the US on the global stage. So when the US war machine starts saber rattling about them, I know what it's for because I've seen it a million times before. We always need an external enemy to justify the massive amount of money we spend on the military and all of the capitalists who profit from it. Even if I think it would be good if someone in the region pushed back against Russian aggression, I think feeding the beast that is the US military industrial complex is a net negative for the world. Not that I really have any say in it. I can't remember the last time my congressperson or senator asked if I wanted to give another couple billion dollars to their friends in the "defense" industry. And then of course there was all the hysteria about Russian interference in our elections from the Democrats. I don't even care if they're right or wrong. That's besides the point. The function of the claims is what is more valuable to look at: The implication of "Russia is subverting our democracy by interfering in our elections." is "We had a previously uncorrupted democracy before the Russians got involved. Please ignore how our own billionaires have bought out all of our elections." It's a way to shore up support for a failing system by externalizing it's problems.
I just want to live in a world where we can all live dignified lives. US capitalists are the current greatest obstacle to that dream. I'd rather have imperfect allies against that than throw my lot in with the "Endless war, exploitation, and ecological collapse" team.
Well said.
The US always needs a boogeyman to justify massive defense spending
and that's usually us on the third world.
China has human rights. E.G. Trans people get gender affirming healthcare, jobs, food, and housing. Something that the U.S. does not guarantee and is actively trying to ban transgender affirming care. One of the most famous people in China is Jin Xing a trans woman. The Chinese government does not restrict transgender people in the same way that the UK and the U.S. does. Largely it is social stigma that remains in China, which will and has been changing over time.
Tbh in China it varies a LOT by region how you'll be treated socially. There's some places where trans people have dedicated medical centers and others where they'll be persecuted. It's a failure of uneven development they're trying to fix. The govt there recently banned the sale of hormones online which really complicated things for trans women.
The govt there recently banned the sale of hormones online which really complicated things for trans women.
That's if you don't have a prescription, while the process is some what tedious to get a prescription people were giving themselves doses far above what is recommended so it was out of concern for safety not a malicious intent unlike what we see in Western countries. I would like to see China do informed consent for HRT and lift some of the barriers though.
As far as the rural v urban divide, it is a tale as old as time, not something unique to China, but at least they are doing something about it.
I agree that treatment seems a non issue, but from what I've seen the social stigma is incredibly significant. I forget their handle, but there was a trans man on rednote that had alot to say about the stigma in his part of china. That isn't to say the US is any better though.
That's Theo and his rednote videos are very insightful. There probably could be better education surrounding trans people done in China to help reduce the stigma, but that is the case in nearly every country. I think as people continue to be open and vulnerable about what it means to be transgender and people become more exposed to transgender people that social stigma will change. It is part of why I live openly and honestly as a trans person. Every generation of queer folk has paved the way for the rest of us.
And the situation with the uigurs?
China's claim is that anything that is being done is being done to combat islamic fundamentalist groups/extremists. This seems to be backed up by international support from Muslim countries.
Genocide claims were always unfounded. However, no matter how nice the guided tours of reeducation facilities look, they are still in effect prisons, and we of course don't know about the things that we aren't being shown.
If your position on the topic is anything more than "They may or may not be treated that good", you have information that nobody else has.
I'm rabidly pro-China and tacitly pro-Russia. I will praise both their people and their governments when I feel they are doing right, and criticize them when they are doing wrong.
Not interested in spreading falsehoods, but if anyone would like to organize efforts to express these opinions and supporting evidence, I would enthusiastically participate.
Westerners are so conditioned to regurgitate hatred against the officially sanctioned state enemies that not blindly parroting their caricatures is seen as suspicious, let alone have positive things to say.
I have more and stronger critiques of both countries and their governments than their haters do, largely because I have made serious attempts to understand the culture, history, & material conditions of these countries, instead of brushing them off with a thought-terminating cliché.
What an absolute clusterfuck of a thead. Isn't .ml a leftist lemmy?...
Do you really have to ask this question lol?
Lemmy.world is full of libs who will take you with open arms, trust me.
.ml isnt leftist in the same way as hexbear and lemmygrad, there aren't any rules about being a lib. But since the mods are leftists it does lean more towards it.
I saw China take COVID seriously while I was marched off to work to die because my job was "essential" - the US, EU, Canada, it was basically every Western country except New Zealand (which is an island and basically became a bunker nation for billionaires and shouldn't really count)
I became pro-China after that.
The best is once covid was declared over usa got tons of laws forcing the removal of what little protections were done.
were the party if fiscal responsibility but all that money you spent needs to get burned because screw any germ protections being kept on our watch
Well germ theory is woke! Didn't you know?
What I learned from covid is a lot of US states had laws criminalizing wearing any kind of mask in public because it's considered "suspicious" or "threatening" or something, and most states are now reinstating those laws post covid.
Like what the actual fuck?
Also, when Chinese covid lockdowns were perceived as too restrictive and went on for too long, Chinese citizens in many different cities started protesting. Did the evil commie government (A) reenact the Tiananmen Square massacre to silence all opposition or (B) listen to the people and actually drop most of the restrictions? Bet most westoids will pick the wrong answer.
Also, loosening of the lockdowns quickly led to more victims than the initial phase of pandemic. Malcontents were lucky that govt did not caved in sooner.
It's legitimately insane how people look at the US's dogshit excuse for a pandemic response and think other countries were too restrictive, when in reality even those that were actually trying like China was still weren't restrictive enough.
My state of Victoria in Australia had one of the longest lockdowns in the world. As someone with an immuno compromised dad I was supportive of it. However the state is now in a lot of debt and having to cut public servants and services.
States without currency sovereignity or trade sovereignity probably can't respond to pandemics without indebting themselves. If they can't print money and can't marshal the forces of production they're basically reliant on market forces, and capital is happy to punish them for daring to get in the way of profits.
Related, COVID also proved to me that the EU is not a progressive historical force. It similarly turns sovereign nations into dependent states without currency sovereignity or trade sovereignity.
I promise you, they do not actually have to cut public services.
They have to recoup the ~$50 billion spent/invested on covid public health and financial support somehow. Yet they keep digging deeper into the $200 billion suburban rail link.
i think a lot of us are more anti-us than pro-china, which says something in and of itself.
If that's how y'all really feel, you can immigrate.
Many people do this year early. In fact millions come to the US because they prefer it over their home countries.
I don't see why see why all these commie larpers won't do the same. It is easier to switch countries than it is to switch your countries government.
Lol at “the EU to a lesser degree”
It’s not even praising the people of China and Russia, but rather their gov directly. Obviously the states have problems, and the EU to a lesser degree, but they at least have some human rights.
Not sure I agree with your claim that the West have better human rights. They do more anti-privacy stuff than the rest of the world combined, and are starving 2 million people. The USA deprives the most people of their freedom: 1.9 million I'm seeing, and 99% of them never had a trial.
Liberals hear criticism of western countries and respond, "They're not perfect. They have their little foibles." Liberals hear criticism of other countries and think they're pure evil.
The USA deprives the most people of their freedom: 1.9 million I'm seeing, and 99% of them never had a trial.
This is only true if you are denying that china putting people into camps due to their ethnicity and religion.
Not to justify US behaviour here but this comment is disingenuous
That’s only true if you’ve if you’ve seen through the lies that our governments, corporate media, and regime change NGOs told us.
This is only true if you are denying that china putting people into camps due to their ethnicity and religion
I am indeed
This is only true if you are denying that china putting people into camps due to their ethnicity and religion.
No, even if those claims were true (and they're not), the US would still have more people imprisoned.
I'd like a definition of "pro-Russia" and "pro-China." Does crediting other countries for any progress, while your own country goose steps towards fascism, considered a "pro" stance? Russia and China are reacting to attacks from the West.
Ml was always pro china pro russia nothing new. I am more worried about the rise of zionism apologists
Which Zionism apologists are you seeing on .ml? Moderators remove that. I also don't really believe you've seen popular pro-Russia stances, I'd sooner think you're conflating Russia-neutral stances.
EU? More like PU.
Your instance is probably one of the few who still federated with lemmygrad and hexbear as you described both these instances to a T. You can either block these instances or create an account with one of the numerous instances that have defederated from these absurd groups.
And lemmy.ml - as evidenced by the comments here.
Got to keep that echo chamber sealed
Funny you say that considering hexbear had themselves sealed off from everyone else for several years.
I have no issue with people holding opposing viewpoints or perspectives, but I do have an issue with people acting as little more than mouthpieces for some authoritarian politicians. I see little difference between them and the MAGA sycophants who talk about the "great" things Donald Trump is doing.
lately
Huh, wonder who that's for
This post got brigaded; you know, that thing that the very same people accuse us of 📽
https://sh.itjust.works/post/44029753
Some of them even broke out their alt accounts, which they use exclusively for vote-spamming. One of them has a two year old account that’s never made a single post or comment. We ban those.
CW gross ideation about /u/davel:
these people are seriously unwell, absolute nazi bar.
I came across one of them saying I was a degenerate roach in another thread there:
The stormfront / kiwifarms strategy seems to be to set up shop anywhere that won't ban them, and lets them doxx whoever they want. And there are A LOT of lemmy servers that won't take action and ban them.
The "Every Accusation a Confession" rule of thumb strikes again.
Thank you for staying on top of this kind of shit and exposing them when necessary.
Anti-communist social chauvanists arguing with each other over what socialism and communism are when none of them have read theory and all seem to be allergic to joining an org will never stop being funny. Plus there's one person asking for an upvoted zionist opinion, and when another user linked a zionist comment from a MWoG mod, they got banned for doing so.
Genuinely not sure what the world looks like when viewed through their myopic viewpoint.
There has been but if western people can create their own echo chambers, why not others?
Well, if pro-US stuff is on youtube, reddit, facebook, twitter, discord, matrix, teams, bit-chute, odysee,
rumble, locals, whatsapp, signal, twitch, netflix,
while the US is falling apart and China is already the most powerful nation in the world and further rising quickly,
where would you expect to find pro-China and pro-Russia stuff?
i haven’t seen that myself but.. is it that bizarre? it’s always been left on these spaces kinda by default so you’re going to see some praise of China.
Inb4 b&
b&
"bampersand"
beble clef
Tribalism is a cancer. We dont need it anymore.
United we stand, divided we fall.
Obviously the states have problems, and the EU to a lesser degree, but they at least have some human rights.
The US has big problems with human rights, that start with zionist first rule, and needing misery and oligarchist pillaging to make Americans have bigger problems than warmongering, Israel supremacy, directly corrupt and rigged elections, or "well first they are comming for the others", and I still have bigger problems.
The NATO colonies are even far worse. Democracy means rule by those allowed by CIA, with population programmed with CIA values. The CIA programming, and total capture of politicians, means normalizing the real enemy to the NATO colonies as a permanent friend and master. The only valid elections in entire world are those approved by CIA values. Never any need for evidence of invalidity, you just take State Department/Elon Musk view that "we will coup whoever we want to coup".
Our countries dress pure corruption as freedom. While freedom seems awesome, the freedom to corrupt, lie, propagandize you into oppression demonic evil diminishment of nations labelled less free, and you internalize those wars as a supremacist right instead of the theft of your prosperity simply makes the corruption of democracy too powerful relative to your critical thinking, attention and distractions from your oppression.
Without CIA influence over a country, it can hope to govern itself in national interest instead of CIA allied oligarchy. Russia and China are mostly successful at this. Freedom is awesome, but the powerful's freedom to corrupt will always result in greater overall corruption, oppression, and oligarchism Normalizing CIA involvement in your media and democracy means your nation is doomed, and lemmy defending demonic evil corruption is the direct result of a lifetime of propaganda.
Liquid democracy is easily available with current technology. Already substantially implemented in crypto currency tokens. It's the only real democracy. That people each have an equal share in their country's government, and its revenue/left over revenue, is distributed as a dividend, means making sure there is a lot of left over revenue instead of corruption.
OP, asking this on lemmy.ml is highly amusing. Think about the domain name you asked this on for a minute.
Is it your first time here?
Lately?
Who are pushing pro-China narratives? Who are pushing pro-Western narratives? What are their motives and, at the end of the day, who is benefiting from it all? Do the words of the politicians whom you support match their actions, or they just looking out for the bottom line? There are states that treat their citizens with dignity and there are states that do an exceptional job of convincing their citizens that they are being treated in a dignified way.
You don't have to be reflexively pro-China or pro-West. Evidence from reputable sources has been provided throughout this thread and in all corners of the internet. The people who can best answer your question have led you to the water. It is up to you to drink it.
Russia first invaded Ukraine in 2014 ran a proxy war in the interim and has failed to complete it's military objectives after nearly four years of total war?
Russia has over a million casualties.
Is this what winning looks like?
Whilst everyone here is just disagreeing with you on basically all points OP, I have to agree. There have lately been a lot more weird memmes, often factualy inaccurate and providing no real argument, that support or defend the Chinese, Russian or North Korean government. I do not in any way agree with the sentiments of these memes but if people actually hold those opinions their free to discuss it, but I would wish that they didn't do it in the form of bad memes in the general use communities, but maybe instead in one of their own, as stuff generally works on Lemmy.
Also, a lot of the worst memes came from one single account. I have since blocked that one person and it improved the situation remarkably. And for anyone who wants to attack me for "not being able to stand hearing other people's opinions", the memes this person (or to be real, probably bot) posted were factualy incorrect, badly made and not funny in any way. I don't come to Lemmy for political discussion but for memes and other fun threads.
This is just about my personal opinions and doesn't effect anything I wrote above but here we go. Read if you want. Regarding the endorsements of China, Russia and North Korea my main problem is that I think democracy is the most important feature of a state for I think yhat the state should exist to serve it's people and to do so in a way that reflects the people's wills. Therefore, I have a really hard time supporting any non democratic state. Also, in regards to Russia, they invaded Ukraine! I have a very hard time having any empathy for a state that shows such violent aggression against one of their neighbours. Especially as I can not see how Russia or the rest of the world stands to gain anything from this war. Ofc North Korea and China have also done horrible things but I think have have gotten my point across at this point, I think democracy and free speech is important. That said, if someone can point to a particular part of, or some project of, some non democratic country that's working well and then say "hey, maybe we should try that", then I have no problem with that. But fully endorsing and saying that we should be like a, for example, China to me is a absolutely horrible idea.
Also, because people will claim that I did even though I didn't say a shit about it, I do not either particularly like the US. What I said about democracy and not invading other countries applies to them to. I'm also not from the US but rather from Sweden in the EU
EDIT: after reading even more of this thread I think I'm starting to understand that many people just support Russia and China because there a counterweight to the US. For me this could maybe be a valid argument for supporting some of what China does but it does not for me mean that I can endorse China and their non democracy leadership and darker sides. Things simply don't add up for me, I can't support China because the US shouldn't get to powerful because China should neither have that power.
I have a really hard time supporting any non democratic state.
And China is a democratic state, unless you're just using "democratic" here as a code-word for "western capitalist", which I'm guessing you are.
I have a very hard time having any empathy for a state that shows such violent aggression against one of their neighbours.
Yeah! That aggression should be shown to countries far away, in the Global South! Invading countries on other continents is fine, just not your own...
I think democracy and free speech is important.
Which is why I will support the enemies of the countries with the greatest history of overthrowing democratic governments, supporting dictatorships, violently suppressing opposition, and murdering journalists. Those countries being the USA and the EU members.
But fully endorsing and saying that we should be like a, for example, China to me is a absolutely horrible idea.
Why? Do they not bomb enough countries for you? Are you horrified to see a country where people are better off each year rather than worse?
I’m also not from the US but rather from Sweden in the EU
And the EU is just as fucking bad as the USA.
China and their non democracy leadership
They are a Democracy, you chauvinist, certainly as much as the West is. You just mean they aren't western capitalists.
US shouldn’t get to powerful because China should neither have that power.
The US has gotten to powerful, and it's done far more heinous shit than China ever did. This is peak example of westerners being terrified of non-westerner having power because they assume they'll be as abusive with it as you have.
Whilst
🤮
Personally I haven't seen anything pro-Russia, so I can only comment on pro-China content.
Seems to me like a lot of people are finally realizing most of what they knew about China was American propaganda, and it's not actually that bad. Though of course, people being polarized as they are, they're moving from one extreme to the other, and not somewhere in between.
Plus, China has a lot of resources to spend on its own propaganda. This especially affects younger generations, who spend a lot of time on TikTok.
Is this some kind of organized disinformation campaign?
I'd say it's quite likely.
China has a lot of resources to spend on its own propaganda. This especially affects younger generations, who spend a lot of time on TikTok.
Got any evidence to back up this assertion?
I’d say it’s quite likely
Or maybe people just disagree with you
So this is the lemmy.ml I've heard so much about, huh?
Got any evidence to back up this assertion?
You want me to prove... that China is rich and can afford pretty much everything, including online propaganda...? Hmm, let's see... I guess the fact it's the world's 2nd biggest economy (or 1st if we look at actual productivity and not the USA's heavily inflated GDP) might be a tiny clue.
Would it really be a shock to anyone if a global superpower spread propaganda to be viewed more positively by people around the world? Russia and the USA do it all the time. Why wouldn't China?
Or maybe people just disagree with you
I guess people never disagree with you, becuase it looks like it's the first time you've been exposed to an opinion that doesn't align with yours.
A little follow up: Why don't you live in China or Russia if life is so bleak in the western countries?
That question is based on a bad frame of analysis. Critical support for Russia is for the role they play in combatting the imperialism of the global north, and the strong ally they are to socialist countries. It isn't at all because people think Russia is some paradise. Further, I can totally say that Cuba has a better economic model than the US despite quality of life being lower in some areas because of the circumstances Cuba is in, it's under massive sanctions and doesn't have the privledged position of world empire like the US does to give it vast quantities of wealth.
Put another way, your question makes about as much sense as "oh, you're pro-Palestine? Why don't you move there?" This is a classic fallacy targeting anti-imperialist and pro-socialist westerners, quality of life in the west is artificially inflated due to imperialism, not because the western economic model is intrinsically superior.
As for the PRC, I'd totally live there for a few years! I don't speak mandarin, nor do I want to uproot myself to move there long-term when my family lives relatively close to me where I am, but for a short while it would certainly be fun! China is only going to continue improving over time while the west is going to continue to stagnate and die, so hopefully we see socialism in the west in our lifetimes.
What are you, twelve, or are you a grown-assed adult asking this question?
This poster was banned? Guess you cant ask these kinds of questions on a .ml community.
They were pushing the "lab leak" theory and "spy balloon" theory.
Yes it's a disinformation campaign. It's been non-stop since 2016, mate.
And this is the obvious low hanging fruit stuff. The smart ones are subtle and have long lost histories. Or are actual westerners they just pay.
You actually believe that real governments pay real money for people to post here on lemmy?
I wish I was getting paid to post, Pres Xi pls hook a girl up
Western liberals literally cannot imagine people actually disagreeing with them without turning into McCarthy
I wish I got paid to be an internet communist, that would be a nice chunk of extra money
It’s been non-stop since 2016, mate.
BlueAnonsense.
Lately? That subculture where they believe everyone but the West are the good guys and working together has always been here. The devs are involved.
Liberals projecting their supremacist and childlike Good Guy/Bad Guy worldview onto communists is like a deep sea tube worm trying to explain flight to a bird.
That a neutral description of what you believe elicits a mass, troll-brigade type response is interesting just from a psychology perspective. Why you mad?
Don't pretend you're such a galaxy brain that 99.99% of people can't even fathom your deep insight. It really is that simple, you're not about to accuse China of being evil or say America is good.
There's no lately....the communities of people who actually oppose Western imperialism have been building Lemmy for 6 years, 3 years before the API protests