Well, we have the fucking camps opening. Luckily, plenty of terminally online leftists are ready to tell us how noble and moral not voting was!
Thank you. I really don't get those people.
And I mean, the Democratic party doesn't exist in a vacuum. If you don't try to change anything, of course the awful "moderates" stay in charge. But it is possible to overtake them, just look at Mamdani. But some people won't even try that because "it's a lost case"…
He now holds the primary attendance record in NYC. It was only 30% of eligible voters, up from 21% in the last election. That’s literally all it takes. We just need to show the fuck up.
Congressional primaries see less than 15% attendance. We’ve been letting retirees pack our ballots with centrists for 40 years, then complain about our choices in the general elections. We wouldn’t be calling for term limits if we consistently participated in primaries.
No "progressive" will have an answer for you on this. Voting isn't the answer, blah blah blah. But it seems no one ever really tried. Otherwise maybe they'd just organize people into voting in every primary.
No "progressive" will have an answer for you on this. Voting isn't the answer, blah blah blah. But it seems no one ever really tried. Otherwise maybe they'd just organize people into voting in every primary.
They are either trying to trick people into not voting against the GOP or they have been tricked themselves.
“Both sides are the same” has been a bad faith argument I’ve heard from conservatives for decades.
The point is that socialism cannot be achieved by electoral means. At best, if the masses in the street really pressure those in power, you get social democracy. That being said the choice for Americans was neoliberalism or fascism. The reasons for fascism winning go deeper than "the left was to whinny", but that's beside the point being made here.
neoliberalism
People here keep using that word uncomprehendingly like they're a dumb AI matching & associating on the root liberal.
Neoliberalism is free market capitalism, a conservative ideology embraced by Margaret Thatcher & Ronald Reagan. Democrats are for many things: environmental regulation, social safety nets, market regulation, spending on social programs, labor protections, consumer protections, etc. That's a far cry from free, unregulated markets.
There are goals before socialism that ARE achievable electorally which are still worth pursuing in the meantime, like stalling fascists, or prevent genocide of immigrants and queer folks
If you don’t try to change anything, of course the awful “moderates” stay in charge.
Trying to change thing is exactly what the Uncommitted movement tried to do. And while they failed to move the needle in the 2024 election, in 2028, the Democrats will have to think a lot more about whether they want to keep losing in exchange for supporting genocide.
Remember, it's always "the most important election ever." Every election is billed as that. But sometimes you need to be willing to accept a short-term loss in exchange for long-term progress. Myopically focusing on just the election right in front of you is how we got into this mess in the first place.
Kamala losing gave space for someone like Mamdani to win. It's clear that corporate DNC centrism is a toxic losing brand. If Kamala had won, it is extremely unlikely that Mamdani would have won the NYC primary.
Every election since I could vote (early 2000s) has been the most important.
Why? Because the results built the Supreme Court that curtailed every progressive policy achievement and accelerated our current descent into fascism.
Without GWB you don't have Roberts or Alito. Without Trump you don't have Gorsuch, Cavanaugh, or Barrett.
Those fuckers have lifetime appointments. One lost election sets us back decades. The only good time for a protest vote is the primary.
Trying to change thing is exactly what the Uncommitted movement tried to do
Where did I say anything bad about them? It was about the primary and not about the general election.
I actually get your point in theory as you could see elections in a game theory type of setting. The problem is that the last elections have been "the most important election ever" because well… they have gotten increasingly more significant and important. 2016 allowed Trump to shift the Supreme Court long-term and change decades-old consensus. It alone almost got him to do a coup. 2020 could have very well literally enabled that, and 2024 well… just look at everything that is happen. This is not the beginning of fascism, that's well some steps inside.
I get the theory, and if the opponent was a McCain I could even understand your thought. But if it's the election of 1930, where every vote counts to defeat the bigger evil, it's not the time to sit it out for future benefits.
We need never be afraid of the vote of informed Americans. It is only the ignorant voter we have to fear, ignorant politically, no matter how fine his house or how expensive his schooling. Such people have never experienced democracy; they have merely enjoyed its benefits. It is hard to explain what democracy is; it is necessary to participate in it to understand it.
The former Berlin businessman I referred to earlier told me that he blamed his own group, people with the time and the money and the opportunity to know better, for what happened to Germany. "We ignored Hitler," he said. "We considered him an unimportant fellow, not quite a gentleman, not of our own class. We considered it just a little bit vulgar to bother with him, to bother with politics at all."
They thought of the government as "They." The only possible route to a clear conscience in politics is to accept political responsibility, either as an active member of the party in power or as an equally active member of the loyal opposition.
—Robert A. Heinlein, Take Back Your Government
You know how before the elections we say that it's not the time to nitpick the Democratic Party because it's more important to have it win so that the fascist won't win?
Well, now we are not before elections, which means that now it is the time to nitpick the Democratic Party.
Hell yeah. Nitpick away. Push for actual left politicians. Go canvas for a candidate who better meets your ideals. Don't forget to vote in primaries and local elections.
Also don't forget that we need to actually make it to having elections for the next 4 years to even start trying to turn this ship around.
That's what pisses me off about these tribalists coming out to parrot the post-defeat "it wasn't our fault for not trying to be appealing, it was the fault of the plebes for not supporting us" DNC propaganda.
"Always blame the peasants, never the kings!"
It's hilariously subservient and the avoidance of change inside the Democrat Party that this "let's not criticize our leaders" aims to achive pretty much guarantees a similar result next time the Democrats face a Republican populist - Fascism - and that part is the very opposite of hilarious.
It's also seriously hypocrite to cloak yourself in a "we want to protect trans people" cloak whilst fighting against the criticism of the Democrat Party that can change the very leaders whose choices and strategies resulted in the current situation where trans people are getting harmed: if they genuinelly wanted to protect trans people from harm, they would not spend their time trying divert criticism away from their holy cows.
Nitpicking ain't the same as doing the work to get a more progressive candidate through primaries of a major party & onto the ballot.
I know, right? How many of the people shitting on everyone right of Emma Goldman and Mikhail Bakunin ever did any real community organizing, volunteering, or political canvassing? How many have actively worked to push the Democratic party farther left, rather than just shitposting online about how awful Dems are? Sure, we all want (well, a lot of the people here, I suspect) want socialist candidates that are smart and tough on the ballot. But are we doing to work at a local level to get there? This shit doesn't happen overnight; you start work locally, work up to a state level, and then go national, once you've got that base of support.
And you have shit libs still clabbering about how the 2024 General ended up.
Can we not pivot and look to the future? Are Democrats secretly wanting to Make Democrats Great Again, like they once were?
Ffs
Two different things, "nitpicking" and then, you know, voting (for Dems).
And our nitpicking and low approval of the Democrats is now a key talking point for Republicans. I may be ignorant but I'm not seeing changes in leadership which is why the approval rating is low. We want something locked and loaded and with sure footing by the midterms so that, at minimum, messaging is on point. But so far they haven't done anything to appeal to people and actually create a platform that energizes people. They need a leftist issue that makes people as irrationally angry as trans girls in high school sports does for MAGAts.
What does that have to do with what I'm saying?
Where did I say "Don't criticize the Dems!"
I'm saying "Next election that comes about, maybe don't fucking purity politics us into literal Nazi death camps like you did this time, you twats"
I don't think they're addressing anything you said, but they are supporting the lefty part where we should be self critical. I would too.
also time to nitpick fundamentalist beliefs and deradicalize before the inevitable bullshit wedge issue campaigns in the run up to the next elections
“I was headed right for the tree, but I didn’t slam on my brakes because they make a squeaking sound. I’m paralyzed now, but at least I didn’t have to listen to that damn squeak! See how much better a person I am than you because of my resolve?“
These people…
I feel like a lot of people are doubling down now because the Democrats on the one hand show utter incompetence and unwillingness to fight Fascism in the US and on the other hand keep up their support for Fascism and genocide by Israel.
Everyone understands in their subconcious but many deny in their conciousness that things will not get better without a struggle. So going down the "i did harm reduction, you were all wrong, lalalala" route makes them feel like they did something and helps to not come to terms that they have been strung along by the Democrats for all those years.
Better light myself on fire! That'll show those Dems!
Yes, the cognitive dissonance is astounding. As are the consequences.
Talk about careful wording lol. Very well done.
"we deserve non-squeaky brakes, and I won't use the squeaky ones!"
The analogy does not hold up when change can be affected by the individual.
In a pluralistic society, individuals are rarely responsible for any measure of “change“. While we may venerate- and even idolize - such memorable figures in our history, and rightly so, the vast majority of change is both slow and takes place because of the concerted effort of a large amount of people who don’t really take any credit for it.
So, while your statement is, technically, correct, it doesn’t account for how such things typically come to pass. In other words, what you said makes sense logically, but practically, that logic plays a very small role in the reality of the situation because most people act illogically.
Is the squeaking sound in your analogy the genocide of Palestinians?
No, because the squeaking sound would still happen in the case of the crash if it was.
You didn't avert Palestinian genocide by murdering other minorities. You literally opted to make it worse. Congratulations. The hundreds of thousands of additional dead and displaced Palestinians thank you for your concern.
[nearly-supernatural level of eyeroll]
Me: "I slammed the brakes. I was on the way to a peaceful Tesla protest."
Them: "How dare you press the brakes when cars are destroying the environment, you genocide apologist! You're wasting your time, if you do not burn down a Tesla dealership you are morally repugnant you fascist supporter."
It's the "violent" nature of the protest and name calling that have turned me off from them. Not necessarily the content of their words. But also, like yes I believe in recycling even though we have bigger problems.
This is such a tired narrative. You guys really want to focus on the leftists when half the country voted for an authoritarian?
Every movement has its radical fringe. Virtue signaling either your ideological purity or your solidarity with the only viable opposition are equally feeble attempts at clinging to a notion of victory in the face of total defeat.
EDIT: I wasn't expecting this comment to generate discussion but since it did, let me elaborate on what I meant by "total defeat." The defeat is not an electoral loss, it's the fact that we have relinquished so much political power that all we have left is voting for one of a set of compromised politicians every few years. It's a tired argument because it assumes that it's possible to vote our way out of the mess we're in, and it simply isn't. We need to attack the point of production because it's where the ruling class derives its power. And arguing about our sham elections is getting us nowhere.
To be fair it sounds like OP feels betrayed, and is kinda scared about ending up in a death camp (and it's insane they have a legitimate fear about that, wtf USA?!). It's easy to point at nazis and say it's their fault (it is), but they weren't your allies in the first place and didn't betray you, they said they'd throw you in the death camp. Your allies were the ones that could have saved you... and it looks like they chose not to. I'd be raging too
This is a bad metaphor. I agree harm reduction helps, but Democrats are not owed a vote and the obsession with blaming what is apparently a small minority of voters or the sole reason Democrats lost depending what is convenient, is truly damning of liberals.
If libs put half the effort into courting leftists they do in blaming leftists perhaps they'd win. Instead a group of people who would by and left never vote for a dem anyway, didn't vote for them.
This is the bed they made and now they want to blame everyone else for shitting their pants.
This is such a tired narrative. You guys really want to focus on the leftists when half the country voted for an authoritarian?
Scratch a liberal, a fascist bleeds
The bottom line is the left has a problem with members who choose their own moral superiority over the wellbeing of the nation and themselves.
That's a problem that needs to be talked about.
Someday some country will vote to bomb your loved ones
You have to understand, the other guy was worst.
Anyway here's your daughter corpse lmao (well what's left of it, white phosphorus is no joke)
Wonder where all those people are? Immediately after the election for several months lemmy was full of people blaming how shitty things turned out on anyone but themselves. “It’s the Democrats fault I didn’t vote even though I know trump is a fascist POS!”
NOBODY thinks the dems are great. They’re fucked up.
But they’re not Alligator Auschwitz fucked up. They’re not screw the country with tariffs fucked up. They’re not ICE Gestapo fucked up.
But that’s not the non-voters fault because this is better than some neo-lib winning.
But they’re not Alligator Auschwitz fucked up.
Do you have any evidence that the next democratic president will close Trump's new immigration camps? Because they didn't the last time. They kept all of Trump's aggressive immigration programs and even expanded them. If history is any guide, the next democratic president will be just as cruel to immigrants as Trump is now. Biden didn't let up at all from Trump's cruel treatment of immigrants. Democrats just adopted the Republican immigration polices wholesale.
Immediately after the election for several months lemmy was full of people blaming how shitty things turned out on anyone but themselves.
As opposed to this post that is taking accountability for what happened?
The thing you're complaining about, this post is that thing.
But the Democrats are:
Some of us think that those things are kind of a big deal. Are Democrats better than Trump? Sure. Is a Neo-lib better than Trump? Sure, but that doesn't mean that I'm going to vote for a party that openly fights against the things I believe in, like:
The system sucks but you're never getting any of the things you want from it without the Democratic party. Leftists should be taking over the party instead of abandoning it. Or letting themselves get played into abandoning it by those who want to disempower the left. The system guarantees that we get two parties and we're not going to take the GOP so the Dems are really it. It sucks but it is what is, you can't wield the state without first wielding one of the two parties. There is no other realistic path to power under the system.
I voted for Harris, am I allowed to be mad that the Democrats are still gung ho about Israeli genocide yet? Or do I need to shout blue no matter who for another few decades?
Not voting and voting for trump were both stupid choices. But attacking people who didn't vote for trump instead of those who did is fucking bananas and I don't get the point of this. Are we expecting a resounding vote in 2028 for Harris again is going to fix everything? Come the fuck on.
I voted for Harris, am I allowed to be mad that the Democrats are still gung ho about Israeli genocide yet?
Sure are.
Because you did the right thing to help your country, despite being upset about a single issue.
You are not part of the problem.
Being pissed about Israeli genocide and thinking that it's okay to welcome in Nazis who promise to intensify the genocide if you feel really strongly that reducing genocide isn't good enough are two entirely different concepts.
Asspatting the latter is a request for them to play purity politics if we ever get a chance to vote again. And if we dig ourselves out of this fucking hole, the last thing I want to see is for us to jump right back into it because "The Dems aren't opposing genocide enough! We NEED to let the pro-genocide candidate win and murder a few million extra people to teach the DNC a lesson!"
People were saying up to a year before the election that they wouldnt vote democrat unless they stopped supporting genocide. Maybe if reductionists like you hadn't been shouting over them calling them russian trolls and pledging your undying support to the democratic candidate no matter who they are, then they would have seen how it was affecting their polls and pivoted. Instead you continue to prove to them that they can get away with anything. I dont uderstand the obtuse refusal to see that laying down an ultimatum and drawing a line in the sand is the only bargaining power you have, even if you dont intend to follow through with it, it wouldve been worth withholding support from biden and harris as long as possible.
True but it's a minor point. Even if every single lefty held the line it wouldn't have made a difference. The people who didn't vote were mostly disengaged normal people and the blame for that is squarely on the Democrats for sucking absolute shit on purpose because of big money in politics.
Have some perspective, pick better fights with worse people. I personally find it extremely unmoving when the left chastises people over politics so good job emulating one of their worst and least politically effective qualities.
Instead, I humbly suggest you try to inspire a shred of hope among the cynical and apathetic - but deep down actually very cool people of the Earth🌠
True but it’s a minor point. Even if every single lefty held the line it wouldn’t have made a difference. The people who didn’t vote were mostly disengaged normal people and the blame for that is squarely on the Democrats for sucking absolute shit on purpose because of big money in politics.
As I've repeatedly pointed out, this is demonstrably not true on the Gaza issue ALONE.
But who needs facts and data when you have vibes to defend and assert as truth?
Have some perspective, pick better fights with worse people. I personally find it extremely unmoving when the left chastises people over politics so good job emulating one of their worst and least politically effective qualities.
I love the part where leftists peddling little Nazi enablement get asspats, but anyone criticizing them gets the fucking tone police weeping over their poor wittle hurt feelings.
not true on the Gaza issue ALONE.
There were two pro-palestine campaigns: The Uncommited movement and Abandon Harris. The Uncommited people ended up endorsing Kamala, while Abandon Harris endorsed Jill Stein - who only got 0.56 % of the vote. So not only would it make no fucking difference if every single Jill voter had gone for Kamala, but the rest of the movement ACTIVELY supported Harris. And this movement was not even the left - it included the left sure, but it was a broad coalition of various demographics - not JUST the left!
So show me the data - I am not going through your comment history looking for it.
You are absolutely right. Few people ever claimed the Dems are in any way perfect, they aren't, but the constant stream of posts here that seem to have only one purpose, ensuring the fascists hold power, disgusts me to no end. "It's all the Dems fault! , because if they would only adhere to my left ideology which is -totally- popular in socialism hating America, they would have won" is not getting us out of this any time soon.
In November, the difference was clear. One party offered slow incremental improvements on many real issues. Letting society adapt to these changes as they go along. The other stood for the wanton destruction of everything as you see now.
Making sure people hate the other party, in this stupid two party system is making sure the dictatorship can go on as it pleases forever.
The dems are literally rolling over for fascism. They are complicit.
Dems are at least as authoritarian as Repubs. It's only not "fascism" because they're suppodly left. I'm anti authoritarian and I'm dreading seeing how Dems build on Trump's precedents. They're just going to go even harder.
Tankies telling people to not vote is rolling over for fascism.
CIA ass post
Holy blame shifting, Batman!
I feel like takes like this come from people with no long term memory. Do you remember the pro-palestinian crowd begging Kamala Harris to even pretend like she'd do something to help? And she basically told them to vote for Trump? Blame the Democratic party for choosing to be fascism-light instead of actual resistance.
Multiple people are at fault
As someone who had to leave behind everything and flee the US for safety (2025 was lining up to be a damn good year dammit), I am furious at all of the above
That's mostly fair, but "protest voters" still didn't throw the election. If you added all third party votes to Democrats instead, you'd still have a trump presidency. This is after Harris ran a very right-wing campaign. They bet hard on Zionism, "border security" and military strength and they lost, partly because Trump can do all those things "better"(worse).
I feel like takes like this come from people with no long term memory.
Christ. How ironic.
Christ. How pointless as usual.
I spent about a minute trying to figure out whatever the fuck you're talking about and it was a big waste of time
Fascism is not a break from the previous administration, but a continuation.
Libs are still crying about their loss of power, still doing nothing to resist.
Fascism is not a break from the previous administration, but a continuation.
Average privileged 'leftist' Nazi supporter.
If the "online lefties" were so powerful a block perhaps Dem's leadership should have courted their vote. If they were so minor a block that "online lefties" should be ignored then you're targeting the wrong people.
But you know this already, I told you before the election that way to win the "no genocide" vote isn't to try convince them to vote "yes genocide". It's to try convince the leaders to stop supporting genocide.
This post is the same punching down shit you were doing before the election.
Yep. And if both the moral abstainers and the third party protest voters all would have voted for Kamala, we would still have Trump as President because the numbers of those people are so small.
Y’all are blaming the people who care the most, when you should be blaming the billionaires.
You really think trans people are punching down at you for wanting to evade their own genocide?
You'll find trans people in the post. What are THEY saying.
I don't know how to get comment links, else I would do the work for you.
But to answer your question. I don't think Pug is punching at me at all, I'm not American. I also don't think trans people are punching at me much either, I've read their comments.
It appears you misunderstood my comment. Punching down was referring to people not in power to change the dem platform. Punchin up was referring to people in power to change the dem platform. Which way is Pug punching in this post?
I'm a trans person. Do not use my people's name to justify genocide. All the trans people I know were extremely wary of supporting Harris. Palestinians are an unpopular minority group, just like trans people are. If corporate Democrats are willing to throw Palestinians onto the pyre, they would be willing to do so for trans people as well. This was obvious to every trans person I know who was politically active. And now, as anyone with two brain cells to rub together could have predicted, corporate Dems like Newsom are throwing trans people onto the pyre right on schedule.
Again, those willing to let one minority group burn are extremely likely to do so to another group. That's the whole fucking point of the "first they came for..." poem.
If the “online lefties” were so powerful a block perhaps Dem’s leadership should have courted their vote. If they were so minor a block that “online lefties” should be ignored then you’re targeting the wrong people.
God, if I hear this mathematically illiterate argument one more fucking time, I'm going to fucking blow.
Elections in the US are won and lost on 1 or 2 percentage points.
Tell me this - if leftists make up, say, 3% of the Dem vote, and anti-leftists make up 10% of the Dem vote, is it viable to court leftists at the expense of losing anti-leftists?
If leftists are willing to let literal fucking Nazis win because they haven't been courted, instead of putting the groundwork in to change the demographic leanings of the Dem party, they can go fuck themselves, because that makes them fucking Nazi enablers, and not much better than the Nazis themselves.
When asked what Kamala's opinion was about Trans people and protections, all she said is "they should follow the law".
The fuck is that non answer
That's not what was said. Harris's answer was insufficient, but she said that she would follow the law while citing that the law mandates access to gender-affirming care.
It's insufficient, but it's also not what the literal fucking Nazis were salivating about at the time.
Are we talking about the same Democratic Party who put forward Kamala "I believe we should follow the law" Harris as their only candidate for president?
How you people manage to convince yourselves that a Democratic Party win would achieve anything at all for trans rights, is beyond belief!
The dems as a whole wouldn't be moving back as quickly. If your in one of the groups you'd be better off being in a delicate but protected class rather than persecuted. Having obstruction to arms shipments would help Palestinians.
How you people manage to convince yourselves that a Democratic Party win would achieve anything at all for trans rights, is beyond belief!
So back to you, how's not voting achieving anything? Its proven to be a strategic blunder. Tamkies that say otherwise aren't serious people.
The dems as a whole wouldn’t be moving back as quickly. If your in one of the groups you’d be better off being in a delicate but protected class rather than persecuted. Having obstruction to arms shipments would help Palestinians.
But that's not good enough (legitimately true) so we should let Nazis win (unacceptable and literal Nazi shit)!
So back to you, how’s not voting achieving anything? Its proven to be a strategic blunder. Tamkies that say otherwise aren’t serious people.
They're convinced that it's awoken the inner leftist soul of the people. "Mamdani would never have won if Harris had prevailed!" is an opinion espoused in this very thread.
This isn't complicated to anyone without brain damage.
Kamala: Prosecutor. Doctorate in law. No criminal record. Member of a party known for NOT targeting trans people and introducing bills to secure rights for them.
Trump: Felon. Rapist. Insurrectionist. Thief. Dumbfuck. Member of a party known for persecuting trans people.
Blaming people for not voting for shit candidates isn’t going to accomplish what you’re hoping for, just saying.
Yeah, people deserve to vote for a party they actually support.
I'm quite glad where I live has an MMP system, and there is likely to be a party that represents most views.
Elections are a compromise. Democracy by nature is compromise. FPTP sucks, but it's the system we had, so you either have to work with it, or burn shit, and not nearly enough nonvoters or 3rd party voters are out here burning enough shit to convince me that they are actually against the system. So in reality they were just naive idealists who couldn't stomach voting for the best viable candidate, and saddled the rest of us with that orange shit-stain instead.
But your candidtaes are voted for in a primary. If you want better candidates they need people like you to organise and put in the work to get them on the ballot in the first place.
This election cycle there was no "getting your candidate on the ballot" though. No for president anyway.
That’s what I’m saying! We need people to care more about the quality of our candidates. But the DNC kicks out anyone who is “scary socialist”. Do I think they can’t change? No. And I’m not even a non-voter btw. I’m just saying, to get through to these people, blaming them for the outcome isn’t going to get them to vote blue.
I'm curious - what do you think I'm trying to accomplish?
How do you know the lesson Dems learn will be what you want, and not "oh I guess the people are fascists"
The assumption here is the left is so powerful that according to PugJesus we single handedly cost the democrats the election. Yet curious the Democratic party consistently shows it will make no effort to appeal to this large powerful group to get elected.
It's almost like the left isn't the problem, and I'd wager a majority did still vote for Harris like me.
What actually got Trump elected was the independents and morons who aren't into politics at all and just vibe voted for Trump. How do I know? I actually talk to people who voted for Trump and many see they were duped by the vibes and brocasts.
Not to mention the large scale effort on the right to get people kicked off the ballots among many other voter suppression tactics.
But let's not focus on any of that, let's lefty bash and cause more infighting, that seems like a great idea!
Honestly i get both sides of this, like im in the UK and probably not going to vote Labour next election because theyve gone really out of their way to show the left how much they hate us, despite the fact its probably going to come down to Labour or reform, but the difference is here smaller parties are actually somewhat viable. So i think in the US it does make sense to vote Dem no matter what in the actual election, but put your effort into getting actual leftits on the ballot in the first place like Mamdani.
God. The UK has a fucked system too, but just having a few viable third options would probably result in... at least mildly less fucked politics than we in the US currently suffer.
At least you lot can punish a party by actually removing electoral seats from a party busy fucking around without just saying "Here, fascists, it's all your's :)" and sending the wrong message entirely.
But yes, the most important thing at present for us, assuming elections mean anything going forward, is putting leftists on the ballot. That Mamdani managed such enthusiasm gives me some hope. Not a lot. But some.
If I were a religious man, I'd be sacrificing a cow for his success right about now. It's... pretty grim out here other than him, at the moment.
I would have voted left if I was physically allowed to.
But also you did have a candidate that came in last minute and was a republican-sympathizer.
Do you actually blame them?
Fucking hate this narrative. Go after republicans at least half as much as you go after leftists and we wouldn't be here.
Do you actually blame them?
"Do you actually blame people for letting a Nazi come into power because the opposition candidate was shitty?"
Yes, and I'm tired of Nazi enablers playing asspat games to justify it.
I'm getting pretty tired of people victimizing themselves to such an absurd level while people are actually dying because they've been kicked off medicaid.
I expect our ER to be a disaster nationwide filled with people unable to purchase their meds. It's going to be hell. To all the first responders and ER staff out there, you are the best of us.
There's also the people who never had Medicaid. There has always been a deadly benefit cliff if you made $1 too much, it traps people bin poverty too. My wife has a fucking terrible government job now but at least it has decent medical. We were uninsured for about eight years. Fortunately we didn't need life saving care in that time.
I can't wait til I'm vomiting blood on the floor because I can't afford my meds after Trump strips Medicaid to the core. But hey, maybe I'll catch a ride to one of RFK's camps of concentration before that!
Dems don't do anything, by the way! Let the Nazis win! /s
That feeling when Democrats are turning on trans people. Pretending the Democrats will save us as a Fool's errand. Pretending that trans people wouldn't be on the chopping block if the Democrats had federal office is naive.
Some Democrats, reeling from Republican attacks tying their party to transgender rights issues, are privately furious at their leaders and explicitly warning they need a better strategy going into 2026.
Source: https://www.politico.com/news/2024/11/13/democrats-moderates-transgender-issues-strategy-00189123
Pretending the Democrats will save us as a Fool's errand. Pretending that trans people wouldn't be on the chopping block if the Democrats had federal office is naive.
I think both of those sentences are true. But the question for me when choosing isn’t whether or not the Democrats would be acceptably tolerant and inclusive. It is whether their opponents would be WAY fucking worse or not. And hell fucking yes they would be and are!
It comes down to the fact that our flawed voting system causes the dichotomy, but that flawed voting system is next to impossible to change. I could see a legit revolution happening before that ever does. I just made a big comment explaining it on another meme post if you want to check my history.
I stand by my statement.
Yes the flawed voting system is a major problem which is why we should put no effort into maintaining it and should put all of our effort into maintaining local organizations to make up for the fact that our government wants to cut all social spending.
The fascists are here. They aren't knocking down the door. They're in the White House. And the strategy of voting the Democrats to prevent the fascist from Gaining power has failed.
The Democrats have learned no lessons and it's now up to the people to create a whole new system of power but if people are looking for something to do in the moment one should be focused on their local organizations that actually do something for their community instead of the DNC and other electoral political organizations that do nothing but waste people time on trying to stall the death of a Dying System that is already delivered us into the hands of fascists.
Oh and if you're voting for the Democrats because they're supposed to save the minorities that's on the chopping block too. They're ready to sacrifice everybody for power.
Pretending that trans people wouldn’t be on the chopping block if the Democrats had federal office is naive.
Yes, as we all know, the Federal government the past 30 years has become more hostile to trans folk every time those damn dirty Dems have been in office!
Utterly delusional.
Yes we all know that trans rights got stronger under Joe Biden and his administration was able to enshrine strong trans protections.... Oh wait.
Those Democrats have done so much to help pull us into a new enlightened age and definitely haven't let Republican policies stand every single time they got back into office.
Pretending that trans people wouldn’t be on the chopping block if the Democrats had federal office is naive.
They literally introduce bills to provide rights to trans people.
Complaining about lefties not supporting a party that hates lefties is not going to fix the problems at hand
"Blue team hates me (please ignore the significant successes of socialists in primaries where progressives actually bother to fucking show up), therefore, it's okay to let marginalized groups get murdered!"
Sorry that a core tenet of leftism to so many people like you is "The lives of the marginalized have to be EARNED to get MY support"
"Blue Circus wasn't ENTERTAINING enough for me to vote against death camps for immigrants"
Refusing to vote in a way that steers us away from the worst imaginable disaster is totally a fix though! /s
Just look where we are today. Sure glad we dodged that bullet of Kamala Harris!!! /s
If your "choices" are stage three stomach and stage four lung cancer, you shouldn't choose a cancer. You should start chemotherapy.
All US elites and the political system are cancer. You need to fundamentally change the political system and both cancers are fighting it right now. The lung cancer and the stomach cancer aren't enemies of each other. They are metastasis of the same disease.
They're only going to do half the things I want! Better protest-no-vote in the party that wants to kill me!
I can't find any news story about camps opening up for trans people, is this just random meming or is there substance to the claim?
It's a valid concern moving forward.
The Republican party has made a HARD turn toward fascism. No marginalized group is safe from fascism. Unchecked, I absolutely believe conservatives would be onboard with camps for trans people. They've happily waltzed past every red line so far.
So in other words, "we have the fucking camps opening" is not true (with regards to trans people).
We can all extrapolate into the future from current events and see where things are heading, but @Rekorse was asking about the present.
Edit: can't believe I'm getting downvoted here, really curious if one of you downvoters would tell me what about this comment is problematic.
Jizz those leopards are really eating my face. So sad 😓 I voted to throw them them the arabs, I wasn't planning to face them myself
That's a legitimate question. Alligator Auschwitz has opened for immigrants. Mostly it's a warning that concentration camps are opening, and that the targeting of trans people means that they are in serious danger of being one of the next demographics to be sent.
Just like the Nazi concentration camps did not begin with mass deportations of Jews, so too is the case here.
My not voting for democrats had zero impact because theres no popular vote.
I'm trans and I spent all of 2024 trying to point out that the Democrats were making a catastrophic mistake by continuing to arm the genocidal settlers and expecting everyone to forget just in time for the election. That fell on deaf ears. Here we are now with the consequences clear to see and all I can conclude is that some people will never learn.
Vote for the candidate you want in the PRIMARY. In the general, it’s a good idea to vote against the one that’s a complete facist/dictator/whatever. If you’re trans and you didn’t vote Harris in the general, you voted against your own interests and the interests of other LGBTQ+ folks and should be giving serious thought to that.
Under our bullshit election system my vote had zero impact, there is no popular vote for president. There was no primary because the democrats pretended that Joe Biden's brain was still working until it was far too late to have any primary.
If you’re trans and you didn’t vote Harris in the general, you voted against your own interests and the interests of other LGBTQ+ folks and should be giving serious thought to that.
I voted for the communists, the entire combined vote for all third parties would not have changed how my state went.
As far as I'm concerned the Democrats are the ones to blame for the situation we are now in, not the people who didn't vote for them.
My not voting for democrats had zero impact because theres no popular vote.
How far in the ground was your head when the media kept calling his popular vote win a public mandate? You can't see how that empowered him? Really?
Your moral fortitude will be appreciated when we share a camp/ You understand the lesson they'll learn is just "the people are fascist". Why the fuck would they try to cater to voters who can't be relied on? Look how piss scared the establishment is because Mamdani won a primary? Yeah, the Presidency didn't have one because Biden was an idiot and Pelosi blocked it at the last second, enabling genocide at home isn't going to do shit for Palestine or to teach the DNC
"not voting because the dems are complicit" was always gop propaganda to keep people from voting dem
the problem is that seemingly all of the news channels are owned by the gop and whoever they bought. that makes people manipulated. what to do about that?
It's a little late now that there's camps, sure. If people had refused harder to put up with shitty democrats in the past, like.. decades past.. then the dems would've lost to past republicans who weren't quite dictators.
In that alternate past where the dems actually lose for being center-right corporatists, they would've had to get some kind of spine or plan or... something.. earlier to protect our public news and education from authoratarian misinformation and maybe prevented this bullshit.
In this current world that we actually have though... I mean you saw we elected Biden, right? And you saw how much good that did -- right? We need somebody on our side with some teeth and rolling over for milquetoast donation collectors is not going to get it for us.
I do think "vote blue not matter who" has shown that the current establishment will happily hold the transgendered community hostage to sell out the working class.
Just because people's deaths are only aggregated in statistics. People who die because of a lack of healthcare or commit suicide because of their economic situation, doesn't mean its not also important to fight for. Doesn't make as good of a headline though.
It's like no one remembers how relatively left the Dems have moved in the past 30 fucking years.
You are completely hallucinating.
Kamala embraced Trump's border wall, Biden didn't do anything when Netanyahu crossed his "red line", and Obama bailed out the banks while carrying the torch from Bush by conducting the most drone strikes out of any other president.
The Democrats have started moving Right starting in the 1990s, not left.
Dems haven't moved left since FDR.
Ultimately, it would be more productive for the center to yell at the establishment for supporting corruption and unpopular policies rather than turning left.
Look at how much more vitriol there was for a leftist mayoral candidate from the establishment than there was towards the leaders who do nothing while a dictator consolidates power. Apparently, its fine not to vote for a democrat if you personally think it will cause tons of economic damage in this case, but not the other.
I don't get it. First the centrists were called leftist, just because they are left of right. Now stalinists are considered leftist, even though they have way more in common with fascists than even the centrists.
Apparently not voting in America is "voting for Trump", but it's "not voting for Harris".
One can only conclude that either:
I'm curious if the "not voting in America is 'voting for Trump'" people ever thanked the non-voters for their support of Biden in 2020?
If "not voting in America is 'voting for Trump'", is true, then "not voting in 2020 America is 'voting for Biden'", right?
Only a vote for the leading contender can beat the other leading candidate in our voting system. This is not a difficult concept except to the willfully ignorant.
2024 wasnt about voting for Harris. It was about voting against Trump. If you didn't vote for Harris, then you didn't vote against trump.
Yeah, that was exactly the strategy that the Democrat leadership followed: no need to try and appeal to voters or even be seen as somebody who can represent them, just convince people that they have to vote Democrat to defeat Trump.
Tell me again how well did that work ...
Yet here come once again the Democrat Party tribalists parroting the "blame the people who the Democrat Party leaders didn't even try to appeal to for not voting Democrat" political propaganda that exonerates from blame the assholes in the Democrat Party leadership who wanted to cheat at Democracy by getting votes without even trying to represent voters.
Congrats for keeping on setting the groundwork for the exact same shit as the current electoral result to happen again: until the Democrat Party actually starts trying to represent anybody other than the moneyed elites, it will always be susceptible to losing to populists promising change.
Keep on blaming the plebes for the results of the choices of your masters.
Uh, yeah, the republican is the default because their voters ALWAYS fall in line. It's why they win any time we let any infighting have electoral consequences
Not voting is effectively half a vote for whoever ultimately wins. That's how a fucking FPTP system works, Jesus Christ.
That makes total sense in a world were people can see the Future and hence know when they're choosing not to vote who is going to end up winning.
In the real world, that's not the case - in the absence of foreknowledge of the outcome, not voting is logically nothing more than leaving the choice to others.
Which brings us neatly around to it being up to politicians to make people want to actually chose them (which amongst other things means converting people unwilling to make a choice into people who chose them), which the Democrat leadership failed miserably to do compare to the Republicans, hence the outcome.
There are only two groups of people to blame for Trump:
This is actually an insane take with no relation to reality. The fact is the majority of americans live in states that will vote for their party regardless of any other factors. If you are in one of these states, im sorry but your vote in a general election doesn't matter.
The dems have worked hard to make sure your vote in the primary doesn't matter much either, just ask Bernie. (Im sure the Republicans have done the same but I don't really care as I don't vote in that primary. Maybe ask Ron Paul, i have no idea.)
Ah shit, here we go again.
Can the libs keep crying for four years while doing literally nothing?
elects another president
WhY aRe ThE LiBs DoInG nOtHiNg!1!1!11!11!!
They're currently one Adderall fueled tweet away from being locked in cages, the electoral loss has already occurred.
Yeah. And yet, despite this clear and present fascism, those same leftists who bragged about how pure they are are still bragging about it and claiming it as left praxis.
If we have another meaningful election, it will be no thanks to them - and doubtlessly, if we have another meaningful election, they'll try to peddle this same exact 'trick' in service to fascism since they still think it was the best thing they've ever done in their lives. Which is why it's important to point it out as the pro-genocide pro-Nazi bullshit that it is before the metaphorical ten minutes before election day.
Its been over a year and people still are freaking out about this? And not the fact that the democrats have basically rolled over at every turn to trump and the GOPs demands?
The dems did not do s good job mobilizing their voter base. A bunch of people didnt like genocide. A bunch of people didnt like Biden. A bunch of people held their nose and voted for him the first time when he said he would get rid of student loans and be a one term president. He reneged on almost every single promise he made. He then committed genocide. People didnt like it. The DNC shoved him and Kamala down everyone's throats instead of having an actual election. They've fucked themselves 3 cycles in a row now and then start complaining about socialists.
They were all vote blue no matter who when it was Biden or Kamala but now Mamdani won in NY and they're all teaming up with the Republicans to stop him. Maybe thats why they keep fucking losing - they dont want to listen to their own base.
What do regular people want? Higher taxes on the rich, more affordable housing and food, Healthcare for all, and good education. All they've done is say well this will hurt billionaires feelings so we cant do it.
I'll pose an interesting question:
is it more important to maintain your personal morality, or potentially break it to protect people in imminent danger?
It's a good question and I personally love discussions about morality. Still, I'd like to raise up another angle that seems to be where OP has started this thread: How do the people in the imminent danger feel? It's easy to talk about morality, but in the actual human level the people being affected right now don't really get the luxyry to view it that way, they just are in imminent danger.
When you are in a group that stands in the lowest levels of the ladder (immigrant, disabled, us transfolks etc.), it is very much personal. We're the ones who will be always taken first when the fascists get in power, while others can still have a debate about it
My personal feeling on the matter is that if someone is in imminent danger of death, and did no action by which to bring it about, they are justified in very nearly any action to extricate themselves from that situation. Morally speaking. So for the trans people or immigrants who have not upset the social fabric could murder anyone who comes for them and I would just smile. Similarly, anyone would be justified in doing so on their behalf.
All Oppressors Must Die
It depends on your personal morality. For example, if your personal morality is that the symbolism of a vote is worth any number of murdered minorities, I'm gonna go ahead and say that maintaining that personal morality at the expense of literal millions of people is not just bad, but fucking horrific, and not much better than the literal Nazis they're enabling.
The problem, in my mind:
republicans/regressives (read nazis) actually get in line and vote for the R next to any name that they've heard in the last week (if not just because it has an R), which means that they actually get shit done (making things worse, but they all get behind it is my point).
On the other hand, democrats/leftists/progressives all sit here and fight one another because of reasons, some good, and some just a little silly in the grand scheme of things. This group doesn't know how to effectively work together to slowly and surely get to the same end goal.
The differences here are why regressives are able to rat fuck an entire nation, collectively, because they don't bicker with each other, their allies, about the smaller details.
The democrats/leftists/progressives are too busy trying to fight hundreds of different problems/battles that would all be solved (eventually, mind you, not right away like we wish it would be) by banding together and keeping the movement momentum going AFTER winning the election.
For an example, gaza and trans rights issues. Both VERY valid issues, and they should be discussed. What happened was those same groups focused way too much on the smaller details instead of the big picture. What SHOULD have happened was we voice our concerns on the issues, vote for the person (at this time, Harris) who had the highest chance of those issues being solved, and then keeping the fire going by continuing to press these concerns to THAT administration.
Look at it this way, even though it is too late: if Kamala had won, you'd be able to sit there and protest any actions that weren't being made towards your/your groups issues, and if we could all get on the same god damned page, you would have more allies who are more at ease with the current admin who could protest with you, because things aren't dire enough for them to focus on them and theirs (read fuck you, got mine). Under the orange buffoon, you can now get deported for protesting anything, let alone trans rights and gaza genocide. So, those allies you could've had are now being deported, killed, or arrested, and that makes others scared to protest with you.
TL;DR: Allowing the nazis to win because democrats/leftists/progressives can't see the bigger picture, and choose to focus on their own issues only (or at the very least, make it their highest priority when we should know that's not how it works, unfortunately) is the reason we have the orange shitler in office right now. This group is trying to fight 100 different battles, while regressives lock step and take away all the good we had achieved, instead of banding together and just doing the literal bare minimum (vote in the "neo-lib"). Full stop.
@PugJesus@lemmy.world is right, whether you like it or not.
The establishment Dems are only "allies" on some issues, and cannot be counted on for keeping their stances on those issues or actually doing much about them at all. For the most part, both parties are captured by and depend on corporations and the wealthy. Most politicians have no principles, because the profession attracts and rewards the kind of people who don't. Newsom is obviously being set up to be the next presidential candidate, and it already seems he's beginning to throw trans people under the bus (and is actively hostile to the poor and homeless). I do agree that harm reduction should be practiced; it's necessary, but not sufficient. Getting involved in progressive Democrat candidate campaigns, and voting in primaries is probably the best way forward electorally. It will likely take decades to right the ship though.
is right, whether you like it or not.
Absolutely correct.
But, let's ponder a little devil's advocate, Mind you, I'm not saying this is right, but there are hard questions.
Is the path out of this whole situation continuing to bunt? If we keep choosing the better of the two options while steadily losing ground, are we not still going to lose ground? Do we believe we're getting back all that ground because the left finally finds and backs someone who is willing to fight for what we need? Will they ever put someone, even truly moderate, out there, or will it be forever the less genocidal candidate?
If we continue to support them, will the left bring us left, or are they going to stay on the tit of the right and keep throwing us under the bus with concessions to fundamental moral questions?
Is this all miserable enough for us to agree to back a third party?
I voted blue because I don't want that moral blood on my hands. But are we just arranging deck chairs?
so true, I don't enjoy voting blue. I hate the libs and am certainly not a lib, but I think harm reduction is important and I think it's certainly true that protesting under the orange regime is. alot more life threatening for someone like me than under Kamala or Biden. That's not to say that they will actually listen or take action but I'm more confident they won't deploy the national guard and Marines to my city and I think that's worth voting for
Thank you for referring to them as regressives. I've been trying to normalize that for years. They are not conservatives anymore, if they ever were. They want to take our society backward.
You're right about regressives working together to achieve their end goal. But it's because they're in a cult. They're brainwashed. The left is not. Certainly not even remotely to the same degree. So we argue amongst ourselves. And in a way that's a strength. Cultist groupthink usually doesn't lead to good places. But yeah, if the left doesn't learn to groupthink on the macro issues, then we're just going to keep losing to fanatics.
The people that chose not to vote or flush their vote down the drain with a 3rd party are fools who couldn't see the big picture and what was really at stake. And now we're paying for their foolishness. Hopefully in the future they can learn from their mistake, but I'm not holding my breath. They seem to care more about their perceived moral superiority than the wellbeing of our nation and its citizens.
@dastanktal@lemmy.ml This is a big part of what I am saying. Its find that you have criticisms with the approach, but you never mention an alternative; which is why I personally say that tankies are not serious people. Not voting has weakened our position greatly. Not voting means we have not grown the progressive wing in the DNC or even spun out a 3rd party. And I do mean this on local, state, and federal levels.
Its rather privileged of you to wait for a perfect candidate when you are not cold, hungry, and under siege. But [class] war is uncomfortable and your unwillingness to fight makes you a bad ally. I have said it before. Elections are just one front in the battle and abandoning it has been a strategic blunder.
Its fine to critic, but if you don't have an alternative or proposed amendment then you are just not serious about materially achieving goals.
Fuck you all. See you in hell.
"Democrats talking about how they totally have to keep backing a genocide, bombing kids, torturing innocent people, screwing over their voter-base, voting the way their rich donors tell them to, in order to win elections"
"Trans people in the US who are 1 electoral loss away from being put in camps"
Fixed that for you
Thank you for putting trans people in camps.
As a trans person, how dare you use my people's name to justify genocide. Most trans people saw right through that shit, as they realized that a party that was willing to sacrifice one minority group on the pyre would be willing to do so to another. And...well..that's exactly what happened. The same corporate Dems that enabled genocide are now tripping over themselves to eagerly join the rollback of the rights of trans people.
Hey guess what? More than one actor can be at fault at once! Yes, really!
But you lot refuse to put any blame on those poor, innocent non-voters who just wanted a little holsum fascism for accelerationist reasons 🥺
This is exactly right. I frequently call these extremists right wingers because that’s basically what their attitudes amount to. They are right: liberalism leads to fascism. Capitalism is obviously a problem that needs abolishing. These are all things socialists believe because we’re socialists.
The problem is that harm reduction is no small thing. It’s not avoiding a scrape on the knee or having a pool instead of a hose. We’re talking about real human beings who are suffering, to paraphrase Chomsky. How privileged do you need to be to think it’s hardcore communists or nothing?
Stalinists are not leftists. They're just conservatives cosplaying as leftists, and if you know anything about the actual history of conservatism (not the "respecting traditions" kind), them calling anyone they don't like a "liberal" makes much more sense...
There are at least two major axis in politics: the Left-Right axis and the Freedom-Authoritarianism axis.
It might not seem so for people who grew up and live in subverted Democracies with Mathematically-rigged voting systems to enforce Power Duopolies (not as bad as Dictatorship but not actually having Free Choice) because they've grown up immersed in the "Two Sides" propaganda framing where all political and social subjects are portrayed as only ever having two possible options rather than the multitude of options that pretty much all human affairs have, so they naturally have a perception of politics that collapses everything into just this one line with two ends.
Stalin was Left + Authoritarian, same as the Communist Party in China.
In Europe there are Leftwing parties which are Left + Freedom such as Social Democrat parties.
In the US there's only Right + Authoritarian and Right + Center (Democrats do have some Authoritarian tendecies, as seen in the continued militarization of police under them, their crack down on Occupy Wall Street and their reaction to the anti-Genocide movement in Universities, so I hesitate in considering them to be on the Freedom size of that political axis, but they're definitelly nowhere as Authoritarian as Republicans).
Sounds like a "No True Scott" situation pal
If you actually look at history, stalinists and auth left in general have repeatedly stabbed other leftists in the back the MICROSECOND it became convenient.
I'll go out on a limb and say that having pictures of the Führer great teacher of peoples in your home is not really compatible with leftism, and that shouldn't be controversial.
Ideologies have these things called tenets that define what they are.
Finally summer camps for grown ups