1y ago

I like the idea of defederation, but conflicted about it's use in practice..

I am still playing around with Lemmy like I am sure a lot of people are. I have accounts on multiple instances to see how things are and what not.

I understand why beehaw decided to defederate with .world, I just didn't think much about the consequence of it after it happened. Today I was browsing the !anime@lemmy.ml from my beehaw account and looked at the same from my this .ml account and realized I am missing so posts.. Any user from .world posting a discussion thread for an anime I watch from, I can't participate in..

I could create my own discussion post about the anime, but now there are two posts going about the same thing. beehaw users would be able to see and participate in this now, but every other instance will see two posts. Duplicating the same thing and splitting the discussion unnecessarily.

I love the power, control, and principles behind Lemmy and the wider fediverse, its just something that is annoying me at the moment. Its amazing for taking care of spam instances (70k users with no posts? yea right), but when one large/popular instance spanks another, it can be problematic. Thinking of maybe self hosting (which I am no stranger to) as a way to avoid an issue like this in future.

Still like Lemmy and wanting to push through these "quirks", but just wanted to vent a little.

36 comments

If you can self host, do it. Definitely worth having the freedom over your own server and not having to worry about what someone else decides you can or can't see
- Federation is one sided?
  
  You can still be defederated by another instance, but most likely they won't care unless you go out of your way to harass their users or create a bot farm.
- Yea was considering it. Already have a server where I self host a lot of things for my own use. Just concerned about security, as my server isn't reachable via the internet (so security has been a bit "loose" so far since it doesn't really matter) and I would have to open a port for this.
  Also opens a few privacy issues. Either I use my existing domain which would expose my dns records and SSL cert history to anyone who wants to know or just buy a new domain just for Lemmy. Even still through, my IP would be permanently attached to the server which would be public for anyone wanting to follow up my instance. I could try and host it behind a VPN that allows port forwarding, but just adding more complexity and cost the setup..
  Could also just buy a cheap VPS and just use that for just the Lemmy instance so I wouldn't need a VPN. Just feels like it would go a little bit against the self hosting spirit since I actually have my own hardware to do so..
  
  You could host on Oracle free tier. I use an ARM free instance, which is plenty for me. And you can always scale or move somewhere else if you'd have many more users.
  
  Could also just buy a cheap VPS and just use that for just the Lemmy instance so I wouldn’t need a VPN
  You can rent a VPS and host VPN on it
- until beehaw defederate your own instance
  
  That is also another concern of mine for self hosting. I know the fediverse is facing a massive bot problem right now and some suggestions of doing whitelists or blacklists to help combat this, so having my own private instance could even be a worse move in the near future.
  
  If they would go as far as to defederate with your specific instance, you should seriously reconsider whether their instance or their community actually have any value to you

Defederation is simultaneously very useful and very dangerous.
Large instances have the power to kill smaller ones by defederating them, since they control an overwhelming share of Fediverse content. That is a lot of power in the hands of a small group of people, each potentially with their own views and agendas.
I think defederation should be reserved for openly malicious servers and used as an absolute last resort. Think of the Internet and how horrible it would be if countries decided to just disconnect from other countries based on conflicting ideologies.
The vast majority of users on legitimate instances just want to explore interesting things, share some thoughts and have a good time. Defederating hurts legitimate users the most, trolls can easily hop instances and find another way to troll.

Long time Fedi user, first time Lemmy user here.
Defederation is one of the reasons society is so fractured now. We can't talk to our enemies, so we can't bring them round with compassion and logic. We just cut them out and they spiral into a more hateful and extreme version of themselves.
Obligatory post:
https://www.theguardian.com/music/2020/mar/18/daryl-davis-black-musician-who-converts-ku-klux-klan-members
- Yes and no. Society has always been fractured in ways that limit discourse. Prisons, psychiatric institutes, universities, bourgeoisie, NCO/CO, municipailities, nation states. Homes. So a bit of separation is okay.
  Arguably the digital space magnifies this effect. And fair enough. But then I would argue:
  The internet is already defederated by default. Extremists already congregate on forums that are completely isolated. Facebook users are walled off from YouTube users, etc.
  The Fediverse doesn't exacerbate the separation that already exists. The opposite is true. The Fediverse is the one technology that is providing technical means for interconnection across groups.
  
  First of all, good conversation. I'm enjoying it.
  I've been around almost five decades, and I can say without a doubt that yes, there are and have always been divisions in society, but not this segregation into hate camps that exists now. Not on this scale - previously, only extremists would be so disconnected from society. Now, we drive them into their safe spaces.
  Even milquetoast blue and red flag wavers are shooting each other regularly where before there would be some mild eye-rolling, and this coincided with the rise of social media, which, as you say, has always been segregated.
  Understanding and moderation comes with only one thing - compassionate discourse. You can't do that if you block ban entire segments of the community.
  Did you read the article I linked? What are your thoughts?
- A counter. You can still talk to beehaw people. Apart from whatever other media they’re on, such as matrix or mastodon, you can create an account there to start a conversation about re-federating, no problem.
  Defederation doesn’t completely cut people off from each, or create crazy prejudices about what’s happening on the other side. This isn’t real life, it’s just accounts in servers.
  What it does do is allow people to take some control over their social spaces. It’s a new thing compared to big corp social media, and we almost certainly have done learning on how to do it better, but it does create a social dynamic online closer to real life, where being active about your social space rather than passively subjected to anything is the norm.
  Don’t get me wrong, defederstion can be done badly and rashly. But I would push back on any perspective that would erase or ignore the genuinely social aspect of controlling who and what you associate with, especially online where things are so much more plastic and connected.
  Compared to what big corp social media has made us think, we don’t all need to be connected to everyone. In fact we never were … it was a profiteering fantasy. Instead we can embrace the choices and freedoms people have here while also trying to build better bridges. That’s what I’d do in real life anyway.
  
  So I see where you're coming from, and it's a valid point.
  There's a but here though.
  Point 1: Corpo soshuls don't connect you to everyone. They have very specific rules that they abuse to ban people with inconvenient (and admittedly sometimes schizophrenic) beliefs.
  Point 2: As a user, you can block somebody (or should be able to block) anyone you find distasteful or upsetting. why would you want someone else to make that decision for you by blocking a whole instance? Don't you want that control?
- If it were a common workable thing then Daryl wouldn't be the literal sole case people like you tote around
  
  I don't tote anyone around. I just got here. My experience is from Mastodon - I have some good friends on shithole servers - granted it's like 2% of the server and the rest are fuckwits, but I'm glad I know them and have the power to block the rest.

Identities should be federated and not local to instances.

These are all cosequences of a federated approach.
Also we absolutely need moderation tools in the internet. There are way too many jerks out there. Fortunately people like to stick together with like-minded people and form groups. Especially after they've been shouted at, banned, etc. the jerks will find their own instance and we can cut contact to all jerks at once.
I like defederation for that. However, it is the deliberate act of destroying the one thing you've invented the fediverse to do: to 'federate' with other instances. If you do that too often, you kill the idea and the spirit of the fediverse. Probably followed by killing your platform, community and the mood of everyone involved.
We need nice people. Good people pushing the buttons in the backend. Diversity. And a healty way to communicate and moderate.
One thing is: If i run an instance of something like lemmy: It's my decision what to do with it. I bought the server. I pay the electricity and internet bill. I face the consequences and get nasty mail by the police if someone does something illegal with it. And maybe i invited my friends to join. It's the same like inviting them to my barbecue party. I don't want them to be shouted at by some right-wing nuts, there.
There is one simple consequence that is important to know for the user: Chose the right instance for you! Diversity is a great thing. And we all know it's too difficult for a new user to also know which instance to join. But it's absolutely necessary to put some effort in. You need an instance that federates with like-minded people and which owners are aligned to your own morale and ethics. You can't join something else and the complain. That way, you'll probably be lost for the fediverse, after too many negative impressions.

I think for a month or so there should be any defederating, we need some stability that people are used to on reddit. If the boat keeps rocking too much it'll shake ppl off it and they'll just go back go reddit cuz it's less of a hassle to deal with the constant infighting.

36 comments