1y ago

On Cognitive Dissonance

As more mainstream libs are discovering Lemmy, we're seeing a pattern of complaints that opinions outside the ones they deem acceptable are allowed on the platform. We've even seen instances defederating because their userbase does not wish to be exposed to these views.

Interestingly, these are the same people who level censorship and control of free speech as their main critique of communists. What we're seeing is that these people absolutely don't care about free speech. They understand the necessity of censorship and actively advocate censoring opinions that they find dangerous. Yet, when societies based on values different from their own use these same tools they screech about authoritarianism.

Turns out it's not authoritarianism libs hate, but having their own views censored. What actually offends them about places like China is that it's their ideology that's being suppressed there.

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'Anarchists' doing authoritarian censorship because of 'tankies' really makes you
- It's illustrative to see that when push comes to shove anarchists tend to side with the liberals on most issues. I find that in genral anarchism is the left equivalent of libertarianism on the right.
  
  This isn't necessarily the case, see Hexbear. I think the most important questions when parsing who we can work with (among anarchists or libertarians, for that matter), are:
  Does this person genuinely want to improve the world for other people?
  Is this person serious enough about that to address the practical implications of stuff like "what do you do when fascists want to start a newspaper on Day 1 of your leftist utopia?"
  Can this person be peeled away from the bipartisan consensus on imperialism?
  Does this person have any other reactionary opinions (e.g., bigotry) that they are unable or unwilling to improve on?
  
  To add to MarxMadness' comment. A lot of those claiming to be anarchists are just liberals who watch breadtube videos.
  Unlike Marxism-Leninism, which requires at least a basic understanding of theory in order to call yourself one, anarchism (especially online) often seems to view theory as a "bonus" rather than requirement. Some online "anarchist" circles insist that reading theory is actually a negative and have a lot of contempt for anyone who does.
  I would say it is more of a lack of prerequisites for joining a movement. An ML has to read and understand theory. An anarchist just has to hate authority. Obviously there are anarchist circles who hold their members to higher standards, but on the internet, anyone can identify with anything they want.
  
  Honestly, I struggle to see anarchism as left at all. I joined anarchist spaces thinking of left unity. I found out they mostly dedicated their time to being anti commie rather than anti right.
  
  I know It is a hard take but I feel like anarchists got infiltrated just like we did and the worst of unproductive elements are downstream from some three letter agency interference. There is no smoking gun but when I encounter it, it feels like it has cia craftsmanship you know.

nooo, you can't falsify our orthodoxy, we designed it specifically to be unfalsifiable

What we're seeing is that these people absolutely don't care about free speech
No, they don't. What they care about is hegemony of speech and hegemony of thought. I encourage the use of this talking point going forward.

It's ironic how liberals yell authoritarianism every time China's brought up on fediverse. One of the few criticisms I have of China is that they're letting liberals run too free in Hong Kong, Shanghai, etc. but that's still not enough freedom for liberals who really just want to suppress other opinions so that it's outside the realm of acceptable discourse.
- As communists, we're open about the fact that we think certain ideas are harmful to society and need to be suppressed. We have a clear rationale for why we consider ideologies such as fascism and liberalism harmful and why we wish society to function a certain way.
  Liberals have found an interesting rationalization to reconcile their support for free speech with the need to censor ideas outside the liberal bubble. The trick is to say that the total sum of valid ideas falls within the liberal ideology, and that all other ideas are fundamentally invalid. This is why liberals love the fake news and disinformation narrative so much. In their mind, they're not censoring other valid ideas that are contrary to their own ideology, but are rather fighting against misinformation that has no fundamental value.

The cognitive dissonance has been rich this past week or so. It's amazing some of the things these people are willing to say to maintain their compartmentalization
- shamelessly plugs !the_dunk_tank@hexbear.net

And interestingly, there's little defederating going the other way. Honestly the only real criticism I see is that libs don't like that they can't regurgitate anti-China made up nonsense without being corrected.
- As far as I am aware, we have pretty much exclusively reserved that option for instances that are just overtly cesspools of fascism. Not even in the "scratch a liberal" kind of fascist, but the vocal and proud neo-nazis.
  We also always seem to be willing to at least give the libs that wander in a fair shot. They rarely last long, but every so often you get somebody who is actually willing to hear reason.

What actually offends them about places like China is that it’s their ideology that’s being suppressed there
Is it even suppressed in China? There seems to be plenty of libs in China, even outside of Hong Kong and Taiwan. Liberalism just isn't the government's official ideology in China. That's about it
- Well, some neoliberals what Hong Kong, Tibet, "East Turkestan," etc. to be independent states, so there's that.
- Christian mindset, as long as even one dissenting voice is heard, then the christianity is supressed. Same for liberalism.
- Plenty of libs from the big cities, places like Shanghai, Guangzhou and even Beijing.
  They're the type to go silent when commemorating the victims of Nanjing or celebrating the anniversary of the Japanese surrender. But in the same breath they cheer fanatically for Azov, US invasions and dream about one day leading the way for western imperialists to kill and enslave their fellow citizens.
  Granted, a lot of these are paid 1450 trolls from Taiwan but liberals are not as suppressed as they claim. Zhihu, Weibo etc. are full of types who idolise the west and even the third reich vs what they regard as "evil yellow russian pinkos" lol.
  More than a decade ago, mainstream opinions were even more heavily liberal with constant portrayals of the US as a magical utopia while we were 'backwards, dirty and polluted'.
- they get dogpiled by nationalists and leftists on the chinese internet so they lifeboat to western platforms to removed about china and share child porn

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